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Ask them 1) How they plan for their online store to compete with Amazon and the like. Press him for details. The only thing I could think of possibly working is some sort of system where the store's inventory is shown online, so you can know if a copy of XYZ is actually at the store before you trundle on down and/or a reservation system. Otherwise, Leperflesh hit the key points. If they say that loyal customers will want to buy from them instead of Amazon, press him for details and examples. 2) Why they think people who are not them will bother using their forums? 2a) It's a lot simpler and more fun to just talk to people in person. Ask them how many customers they expect to use the forums, why they chose that number, and how they plan to deal with the online cat-piss men. 2b) Ask how much money and effort they want to spend to keep out spammers and malware; SA does a great job because registration lives behind a paywall, but free forums have a lame captcha at best and frequently end up serving malware when automated scanners find an old security hole
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| # ? Mar 18, 2012 20:00 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 15:29 |
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hectorgrey posted:Once customers show up, they might check out the forum and see if anyone posts there, but you can't expect them to just create an online community just like that. You can hire writers for very little to seed your forum with intelligent arguments and forum posts.
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| # ? Mar 18, 2012 20:03 |
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Pit of Despair posted:Everyone involved is basically sick and tired of creepy grognards creeping up their favorite stores and forums, and they want a place online where people can talk about gaming and shop without having to worry about those kind of people clogging the place up. I told them they should check out this place, but one of them said "That place sure sounds like SOMETHING AWFUL." and they all laughed and I died a little. Tell them to stop being foolish and register here instead of trying to build yet another online forum for games. An online forum attached the their online retail web site won't be good for much other than a repository of event announcements. Death Pits of Crap fucked around with this message at Mar 18, 2012 around 20:12 |
| # ? Mar 18, 2012 20:08 |
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I'm going to be talking to the president of Black Wyrm Publishing tonight, and reading this thread had been good prep. They have an interesting publishing model, where if they accept a manuscript, they cover printing and marketing and then do a 50/50 split of the profit. Is there anything I absolutely must bring up?
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| # ? Apr 3, 2012 20:46 |
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Ulta posted:I'm going to be talking to the president of Black Wyrm Publishing tonight, and reading this thread had been good prep. They have an interesting publishing model, where if they accept a manuscript, they cover printing and marketing and then do a 50/50 split of the profit. Ask what they do for marketing for you -- I've never heard of them, so I'd be wary. Ask what distributors they have deals with and which ones will be carrying your games. Ask whether they will be supplying art, editing, and layout. I suggest these because if their marketing is lame and they don't have good connections with distributors and you will be doing all the creative work yourself, then you can do better than this all by yourself with a low- or zero-risk publication model.
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| # ? Apr 3, 2012 22:07 |
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Brad J. Murray posted:Ask what they do for marketing for you -- I've never heard of them, so I'd be wary. Ask what distributors they have deals with and which ones will be carrying your games. Ask whether they will be supplying art, editing, and layout. Should have been more clear. Doing an interview, not actually publishing.
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| # ? Apr 3, 2012 22:14 |
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Ulta posted:Should have been more clear. Doing an interview, not actually publishing. Ahah, well good luck! Probably still good questions, actually. 
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| # ? Apr 3, 2012 22:15 |
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Ulta posted:I'm going to be talking to the president of Black Wyrm Publishing tonight, and reading this thread had been good prep. They have an interesting publishing model, where if they accept a manuscript, they cover printing and marketing and then do a 50/50 split of the profit. Edit: Ask these questions anyway! Please! And report back with your findings! You're going to want to be very clear about the contractual basis of this "50/50" split. Essentially, you are going to want to get down to exactly what part of your sales you would be splitting. The best case scenario is that your get 50% of the gross sales (probably after sales costs, i.e. credit card processing and website fees). In this case, you'd be raking in about 45% of each sale. The more likely scenario is that it is 50% of the net profit after amortized production and/or marketing costs. This basically means they're covering their investment in each individual item before they start paying out profits. This is a smart thing for a company to do, but it means you're going to get a lot less than 50% of sales, more likely around 20-25%. It's still not necessarily a raw deal, depending on how much of the work they are willing to do for you and how much they're taking out of each sale. Some things to watch out for: - I know you've heard this before, but please, for the love of God, read EVERYTHING you sign. If they're not willing to sign a contract, consider what that might mean. - "Recovery quotas" (it goes by different names in different industries). This happens a lot in fiction publishing: the publisher agrees to a significant portion of the gross, but only once they've recovered some or all of their invested costs. Since a great number of books don't reach this point, the publisher is guaranteed to recoup a maximum amount of their investment, and most writers don't get a check. - Ownership issues. Not just who owns the rights to the product (which is important), but who owns the rights to sequels and derivatives? Are you looped into publishing all of your work with them? Under what conditions is the contract re-negotiable and/or terminatable/severable, and where do the rights go then? What are your litigation/arbitration rights? (I have seen at least one contract where the original creator retains all rights UNTIL the contract is terminated, and then they go to the publisher!) - Always, always ask why you should sign with them. Give them a chance to tout themselves and their services, and then seek out other people that have worked with them. You're not looking for good or bad reviews, you're looking for confirmation of the things they are saying. "I didn't sell any books" can happen for a thousand reasons, but "I didn't hear from them for a month after they listed my product" is much more worrisome. In regards to the actual publisher, I'd never heard of them. Their website makes my eyes bleed, but they seem to be pretty active in promoting their authors and products (Con appearances, podcasts, etc.). I am a bit curious why few to none of their books have an author credited on the cover.
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| # ? Apr 3, 2012 22:42 |
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This was a pretty interesting thread to read from start to finish. About 10 years ago I was on the brink of investing an insane amount of money into my own miniature game that had been a pet project of mine for a while. I think so much of what's been said in this thread in regards to RPG creators is even more applicable to miniature companies. Thankfully I escaped without losing anything (Heroclick minis came on the market just at that time and would have killed me no matter how good I thought my game was). On a completely different note, the first thing I did when I decided to get back into miniatures is drive around town to find a store for miniatures and supplies and I couldn't believe the number of hobby stores I went to that sold paints and/or miniatures yet didn't have a single table on which people could play. How do those places stay open?
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| # ? Apr 4, 2012 00:07 |
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InternetJunky posted:I couldn't believe the number of hobby stores I went to that sold paints and/or miniatures yet didn't have a single table on which people could play. How do those places stay open?  nobody actually plays with their warham guys
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| # ? Apr 4, 2012 00:13 |
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Gau posted:Edit: Ask these questions anyway! Please! And report back with your findings! I was in the middle of the interview when I saw this post, so I didn't get to ask all the questions, but it is definitely the 50% of the net profit after amortized production and/or marketing costs. They do go through Ingram distribution network for fiction, and http://www.impressionsadv.net/, which is a consolidator, for RPG stuff. They also see kickstarter friendly. I'm editing it now, but I'll post a link and timestamp for all the publishing specific stuff.
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| # ? Apr 4, 2012 01:17 |
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InternetJunky posted:On a completely different note, the first thing I did when I decided to get back into miniatures is drive around town to find a store for miniatures and supplies and I couldn't believe the number of hobby stores I went to that sold paints and/or miniatures yet didn't have a single table on which people could play. How do those places stay open? Depends on the niche they're catering to and what the prevailing gaming culture is in the area. Not much of a reason to invest in tables if everyone already plays in their basement. Also a lot of stores have that stuff on the shelf 'just in case' and to diversify a bit but don't see much in the way of sales - there's plenty of places in my area that sell miniatures (not much, but they do) but only have room for card games to play because miniatures don't drive their business.
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| # ? Apr 4, 2012 22:11 |
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Ulta posted:I was in the middle of the interview when I saw this post, so I didn't get to ask all the questions, but it is definitely the 50% of the net profit after amortized production and/or marketing costs. They do go through Ingram distribution network for fiction, and http://www.impressionsadv.net/, which is a consolidator, for RPG stuff. They also see kickstarter friendly. http://dorknight.libsyn.com/webpage...-dave-mattingly He starts talking about publishing stuff at 8:12 For some more context, I think the only thing I knew them from beforehand was this from Free RPG Day last year 
Ulta fucked around with this message at Apr 6, 2012 around 14:10 |
| # ? Apr 6, 2012 14:01 |
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Edit: Never mind. Dropped a stinker in public.
Gau fucked around with this message at Apr 23, 2012 around 14:23 |
| # ? Apr 23, 2012 04:08 |
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Just wanted to say that I read the first three pages of this thread yesterday and found it rather enthralling. Someday my goal is to run a game business, specifically an arcade, though I'm thinking about also selling tabletop games there. Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion.
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 16:38 |
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Gau posted:Edit: Never mind. Dropped a stinker in public. Aw. And I wrote up a long scathing reply, too! I hope I didn't discourage you. I find your blog thought provoking even when I disagree...
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| # ? Apr 23, 2012 17:23 |
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S.J. posted:Depends on the niche they're catering to and what the prevailing gaming culture is in the area. Not much of a reason to invest in tables if everyone already plays in their basement. Also a lot of stores have that stuff on the shelf 'just in case' and to diversify a bit but don't see much in the way of sales - there's plenty of places in my area that sell miniatures (not much, but they do) but only have room for card games to play because miniatures don't drive their business. One of my FLGS carries the models and paint, but doesn't want "gamers" hanging out at their store and don't want to attract the "gamer" element because it will run off their hobby element who buy $600 rc trucks.
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| # ? Apr 27, 2012 18:54 |
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S.J. posted:Depends on the niche they're catering to and what the prevailing gaming culture is in the area. Not much of a reason to invest in tables if everyone already plays in their basement. Also a lot of stores have that stuff on the shelf 'just in case' and to diversify a bit but don't see much in the way of sales - there's plenty of places in my area that sell miniatures (not much, but they do) but only have room for card games to play because miniatures don't drive their business.
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| # ? Apr 27, 2012 19:36 |
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InternetJunky posted:Maybe miniatures don't drive their business because they don't provide room to play wargames with them. This is purely anecdotal, but none of my friends are wargamers so I have no one to play with. If the LGS near me happened to provide table space to play and put in the effort to run tourneys and/or painting competitions I'd probably load up with hundreds of dollars in minis from them. My FLGS I go to for M:TG stuff has tables and tournaments set aside for miniatures stuff, and I would say a good 70% of the time I'm there some people come play miniatures. I think they have a box of paints too, but I've never seen anyone painting.
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| # ? Apr 27, 2012 21:32 |
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InternetJunky posted:Maybe miniatures don't drive their business because they don't provide room to play wargames with them. I understand where this comes from, but that's not how it works. If they wanted minis to drive their business like that they would have planned for that from the beginning, and that includes gaming space. Most of these places are card game stores that just happen to stock a few mini products. Verdugo posted:One of my FLGS carries the models and paint, but doesn't want "gamers" hanging out at their store and don't want to attract the "gamer" element because it will run off their hobby element who buy $600 rc trucks. My bad, I could've been more clear. I meant miniature wargaming stuff, not just miniatures in general like model plane kits and stuff. S.J. fucked around with this message at Apr 28, 2012 around 20:01 |
| # ? Apr 28, 2012 19:59 |
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Okay, for realsies this time http://yourbusinesssucks.wordpress....pathfinder-mmo/
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| # ? May 10, 2012 01:39 |
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Does anyone else think this is exactly not what Kickstarter should be used for? Not to pull the hipster card, but I thought Kickstarter was for the self publishing set, not the Pazio's and Wizards of the industry. Also, they aren't raising money to publish that Thornkeep book, which I would be more OK with if that was the objective, but rather some nebulous tech demo so actual investors can invest.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 03:23 |
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Ulta posted:Does anyone else think this is exactly not what Kickstarter should be used for? Not to pull the hipster card, but I thought Kickstarter was for the self publishing set, not the Pazio's and Wizards of the industry. Also, they aren't raising money to publish that Thornkeep book, which I would be more OK with if that was the objective, but rather some nebulous tech demo so actual investors can invest. No, I completely agree. It's not even related to the size of the thing - it's supposed to be a medium by which fans and supporters fund creative efforts. Software is already bending the definition of "creative efforts;" funding a pre-investment demo is not exactly the sort of thing they should be supporting. I encourage people to tell Kickstarter so; I believe they'd agree.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 03:32 |
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Gau posted:Software is already bending the definition of "creative efforts;" funding a pre-investment demo is not exactly the sort of thing they should be supporting. Also, I'm not sure what they think they can make with $50k, but it won't be "fully playable, integrating account management, character creation, a virtual world server, multiple simultaneously connected clients, middleware used for rendering landscapes and characters, basic game mechanics, and player communications" unless it's going to be a text-based game.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 04:04 |
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This game will never be released in its present concept.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 04:49 |
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Gau posted:No, I completely agree. It's not even related to the size of the thing - it's supposed to be a medium by which fans and supporters fund creative efforts. Software is already bending the definition of "creative efforts;" funding a pre-investment demo is not exactly the sort of thing they should be supporting. While funding this pre-investment demo through kickstarter is a bad idea, it's not because it's software related. It's because this is obviously funding a project that's poorly planned and will never happen at anything close to the scale he's describing, if it happens at all. I mean, this is the exact same thing that was wrong with that Republique kickstarter. It's not "give us money to help with our production costs in exchange for some swag and a warm fuzzy feeling," it's "give us money so that maybe other people will give us money so we might get to make a game someday." Since you're not actually beholden to do anything once you get the kickstarter money, I imagine the backers will get a video and then never hear anything about this again outside of "crowdsourced design questions" while they try to find a sucker who'll back a Fantasy MMO based on a tiny property in 2012.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 05:39 |
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InternetJunky posted:Also, I'm not sure what they think they can make with $50k, but it won't be "fully playable, integrating account management, character creation, a virtual world server, multiple simultaneously connected clients, middleware used for rendering landscapes and characters, basic game mechanics, and player communications" unless it's going to be a text-based game. They need way more than $50k to do anything useful, if they want to actually create a tech demo. I'm pretty sure the tech demo isn't the point at all; they have absolutely no intention of making one. The target is set that low so they can brag about how their goals and expectations were "totally blown away" when they go talk to investors. Basically, they're counting on backers being gullible enough to generate marketing buzz under false pretenses and investors being too stupid to check their math. ETA: On Kickstarter, don't all the pledges get refunded if the goal isn't met? Depending on how cynical you want to be and how low an opinion you have of Dancey et al, they may also have set the target that low to ensure the goal is met and they get to take the money. TheArchimage fucked around with this message at May 10, 2012 around 06:27 |
| # ? May 10, 2012 06:24 |
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The game is doomed because it will be seen as a competitor for World of Warcraft (because it is). No investor will invest in a startup game that attempts to compete directly with WoW. That said: am I the only one finding a delicious irony in the game people fled to because "4th edition is too much like a MMORPG" could be made into an MMORPG? Aren't Pathfinder players specifically disdainful of WoW and all its ilk? Who do they imagine will actually play this game?
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| # ? May 10, 2012 06:28 |
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This kind of poo poo is going to be the reason the Kickstarter fad dies an early death. It won't be the failure of a big project like DoubleFine or Banner Saga, it will be a death by a thousand cynical cuts from "projects" like this one. I wanted to use Kickstarter to make millions of dollars and then flee the country too, but it seems I am too late  Leperflesh posted:The game is doomed because it will be seen as a competitor for World of Warcraft (because it is). Dancy can't get a dime of funding because an MMO with a subscriber base of every pathfinder player in existence will barely be afloat. Also, there already IS a D&D MMO - so it has to compete with a Free-to-Play D&D MMO being run by Turbine, a company with a good track record in this field. It is a project that was doomed from the beginning, and if it was not for Dancy's ongoing fetish for an MMO (which he has had since he wanted to make the White Wolf MMO), it would not even exist. This is a clear case of one man's hubris. I feel nothing but contempt for anyone foolish enough to throw good money after bad in funding this absurdity. Laphroaig fucked around with this message at May 10, 2012 around 06:38 |
| # ? May 10, 2012 06:35 |
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Leperflesh posted:The game is doomed because it will be seen as a competitor for World of Warcraft (because it is). They've been talking about it for months. They dont want it to be too casual for the kiddies (so facebook games which are cheap money makers are out) and they dont want it to be wow (which is funny because the things they want are literally defined by not being like what it is successful). Basically they want eve online poo poo farmer edition (but they want to be the wizard)
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| # ? May 10, 2012 06:35 |
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Leperflesh posted:That said: am I the only one finding a delicious irony in the game people fled to because "4th edition is too much like a MMORPG" could be made into an MMORPG? Aren't Pathfinder players specifically disdainful of WoW and all its ilk? Who do they imagine will actually play this game?
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| # ? May 10, 2012 06:36 |
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Laphroaig posted:Also, there already IS a D&D MMO - so it has to compete with a Free-to-Play D&D MMO being run by Turbine, a company with a good track record in this field. D&D Online? I played that in the beta. Doesn't it predate WoW? If not, then certainly WOW was still a hell of a lot smaller (in terms of subscriber base) when DDO came out. Since WOW (an MMORPG set in a fantasy universe with dwarves and elves), we have also had Warhammer Online, an MMORPG set in a fantasy universe with dwarves and elves; it is still running in a very reduced scale, but was a pretty serious failure. We've had Age of Conan, an MMORPG set in a fantasy universe without elves and dwarves, but with naked breasts; it is still running (now as a free-to-play) at a very reduced scale, but was a pretty significant failure. DDO was maybe a qualified success at launch (before WoW was big), but foundered and is still running (as a free-to-play) at a very reduced scale. Notably, Warhammer Online was a Mythic Entertainment/EA effort; Age of Conan came from Funcom, a big MMORPG company; DDO was from Turbine, who as you said have a good track record in this field. So as an investor, looking at how poorly various attempts by big, well-funded studios with track records of success have managed to compete with WoW, the odds that a completely new startup venture will find significant funding to do exactly that are pretty much nil.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 06:58 |
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Leperflesh posted:So as an investor, looking at how poorly various attempts by big, well-funded studios with track records of success have managed to compete with WoW, the odds that a completely new startup venture will find significant funding to do exactly that are pretty much nil. But Dancey will continue to draw a paycheck off of this, and will come out with a nice feather on his resume "Raised 100,000 in a month for a MMO, I am steve jobs." The Pathfinder MMO is not so that pathfinder fans will have a MMO, it is so Dancey can make money.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 07:14 |
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Turbine does good work. I mean, their games are still MMOs with all the attendant issues there, but if nothing else they do a good job at getting you invested in the story right out of the gate, which WOW doesn't. Basically what I'm saying is that if Dancey were really serious about this he'd be trying to shop the license out to Turbine or some other big studio. Red_Mage is right. This is a money pit with no purpose but to let Dancey draw a paycheck.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 07:48 |
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Red_Mage posted:But Dancey will continue to draw a paycheck off of this, and will come out with a nice feather on his resume "Raised 100,000 in a month for a MMO, I am steve jobs." The Pathfinder MMO is not so that pathfinder fans will have a MMO, it is so Dancey can make money. Agreed. This is one man's hubris.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 08:10 |
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So that is why this man is being allowed to do something this, because he is on his own. As much as I dislike Pathfinder and Paizo, I am glad Lisa Stevens does have a business sense after all.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 10:11 |
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TheArchimage posted:ETA: On Kickstarter, don't all the pledges get refunded if the goal isn't met? Depending on how cynical you want to be and how low an opinion you have of Dancey et al, they may also have set the target that low to ensure the goal is met and they get to take the money. Not really. You don't get charged unless they meet their fundraising goal. Pledge as much as you like, as long as it doesn't go over whatever the fundraising mark is you're not out anything at all.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 10:24 |
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Well, the point TheArchimage was making was that they set the goal very low, to ensure they get as much money as possible. That way they get to boast about how many multiples of the goal they ended up raising *and* ensure that however much they raise, so long as it's over that low goal they can keep it all with no obligations.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 10:57 |
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Rhandhali posted:Not really. You don't get charged unless they meet their fundraising goal. Pledge as much as you like, as long as it doesn't go over whatever the fundraising mark is you're not out anything at all. As long as it's not over the fundraising mark when the deadline is meant. There's nothing stopping you from pledging $10k, letting the ensuing swell of confidence mean people pledge loads, then withdrawing your pledge at the last minute.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 12:46 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 15:29 |
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Even an incredibly successful cross-demographic IP like Star Wars couldn't gain meaningful traction versus WoW in the MMO market. Saying that Pathfinder is the most successful tabletop RPG sounds impressive, but it's the king of a niche within a niche within a niche market. What they didn't copy from 3.5 is terrible to begin with, so I'm not sure how they think they're going to be successful by breaking the mold and probably alienating their current supporters.
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| # ? May 10, 2012 14:04 |
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