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I guess you can define censorship that way. But if the definition includes editing out racist comments from your own blog, or withdrawing the privilege of using someone else's website, you've watered it down into a concept people aren't likely to care about. I certainly don't give a drat about that "censorship."
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| # ? May 17, 2012 21:15 |
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| # ? May 23, 2013 09:16 |
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I'm sorry, but Kickstarter saying "I do not wish to do business with you" is not loving censorship. This idea that any sort of criticism or any refusal to immediately do anything and everything that a terrible person wants is somehow infringing on their free speech is absurd at best. Kickstarter didn't "censor" this. poo poo, they've gone on to do the same thing on their own website. That's not censorship. That's Kickstarter deciding against making a contract.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 21:42 |
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If Kickstarter had removed the entire project and deleted posts about it, that would be more of an actual censoring.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 21:53 |
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Maxwell Lord posted:I do recall at least one product (something like "Dungeon World") got pulped for going outside the SRD, because they included stuff that Wizards had kept as Product Identity (beholders, illithids etc.) Wizards of the Coast deliberately left certain things out of the OGL content. They're pretty specific about what IS and what IS NOT OGL. And yeah, from what I recall, there were a few games that hosed up and assumed that EVERYTHING D&D was open. It is not. Fairly bog standard monsters and stuff that was ripped from mythology or ancient stories are left in the open stuff. Things like wights and dwarves and faeries and what not. Those are things that WotC couldn't even hope to attempt to copyright in the first place. But things like Illithids and Beholders are pretty specific to D&D and I think even sort of specific to a few settings. My understanding of it is that they quit claiming ownership of the d20 system (which was redundant anything...the government specifically said that you can't copyright game mechanics and, in most cases, can't patent them either...ESPECIALLY dice, which have been around since before writing) and said that it was A-OK if people wanted to publish new settings for use with the bog standard d20 system, feat books, equipment guides, extra monsters, alternate classes, and so forth.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 22:20 |
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This whole tentacle surprise sex thing is kind of a stupid derail. Or at least the censorship part is, because it's basically a semantic argument (about which jmzero is completely correct) and some folks are reading into that semantic argument a value judgement (this kind of censorship is bad) that isn't there. Nobody with half a brain disputes Kickstarter's right to cancel a project that they feel is inappropriate for their organization to be seen to support. People who are crying "censorship" are actually complaining about a thing they like being punished. Which it is. Because it's socially unacceptable for most people and nobody with any sense of awareness about the seriousness (and pervasiveness) of surprise sex should want to associate with it. Whether it's censorship in the denotative sense (it probably is) or the connotative sense of something negative and anti-freedom and oppressive (it probably isn't) is a derail. On the other hand, I'm not on board with the "it's perpetuating surprise sex culture" argument either. Murder is a bad thing but we all play games in which we pretend to kill people. Murder is pervasive as well. Should we complain about a culture of violence in this thread? I hope not. If there is a discussion to be had on that topic (and there is), this isn't the right thread for it. This is a thread about what's wrong with the game industry and the businesses that serve it. What's wrong with the game company making that tentacle surprise sex game? I can think of several things and I think those are worth discussing. Why are they using kickstarter? Why are they making yet another loving trumps style card game? Why are they making a card game "inspired" by a grotesque anime meme? Isn't that bad for gaming in that it's further saturating an already-saturated marketplace with a probably not very good game with a repugnant theme? The kickstarter part isn't very important and I think we all agree that the subject matter is foul. Maybe we could not try to have a big derail in this thread about censorship and surprise sex culture? I find it tiresome but perhaps necessary to footnote this post by saying that I am unequivocally against surprise sex. And yes I find this game to be offensive to me personally, to women in general, and perhaps even to the Japanese, the majority of whom are not interested in tentacle surprise sex.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 22:48 |
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If you don't think that surprise sex culture is part of what's wrong with the gaming industry, you should really spend a little more time in grognards.txt. But yes, the definition of "censorship" is a useless derail.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 23:02 |
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Yeah, that. I wasn't incensed by the censorship part. I was just trying to imagine what kind of deluded mind debates semantics/civil rights over a freaking game that is a somewhat shallow parody of anime at best.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 23:04 |
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There's like seventy-three thousand unread posts in the grognards thread. I'm not going to even attempt that poo poo. That's just nuts. If I tried to keep up with it I'd never do anything else. I'm not sure what 'surprise sex culture' even is really, or what specific people mean by that term at least. I think there's a lot of stuff in gaming culture that's sexist, for sure. I also think there's a hell of a lot of escapist violence, which I'm generally pretty OK with. I'm not sure where a line ought to be drawn between pretending to do violence to people, and pretending to do really-bad violence to people, or exactly how graphic or descriptive it's OK to be about violence before you've crossed a line. You can ask identical questions about television, film, books, comic books, and music, though, and to me that means it's not really a discussion about gaming, but about our broader culture. (e. By "our" I mean American or perhaps Western culture.) Or is this about creepy nerds who don't see what's wrong with explicit sex in a role-playing game? Or that talking about sexual violence in a cavalier way makes people (of both genders) uncomfortable and creeped out? Because I'm right with you there, but I'm fortunate enough to not have encountered it in my gaming experiences.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 23:09 |
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Leperflesh posted:There's like seventy-three thousand unread posts in the grognards thread. I'm not going to even attempt that poo poo. That's just nuts. If I tried to keep up with it I'd never do anything else. The reason there isn't a "murder culture" like there is a "surprise sex culture" is that nobody (well, disregarding serial killers) thinks it's ok to go around murdering people at random. There are people, however, who do think it's ok to surprise sex someone. And there are even more people who think it's ok to do things that they wouldn't call surprise sex but are - having sex with someone who is blackout drunk, or deciding that a woman's "no" isn't really a no, she's just playing hard to get, or that if she's your wife she has to have sex with you and it isn't surprise sex. That's what surprise sex culture is, and that's why things that normalize and trivialize surprise sex as something fun or a harmless joke are bad, because they make rapists feel comfortable and that everyone else is like them, and it makes those growing up in that environment see it as ok as well.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 23:27 |
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OK. I agree with all of that. Isn't there a similar problem with casual non-murder violence, though? There do seem to be people who think it's OK to start fistfights or beat their spouses or even their children. But whatever, that's a derail, the point is: do you think that there are aspects of the games industry - as opposed to gamers themselves - encouraging a cavalier attitude towards surprise sex? Certainly this tentacle surprise sex game qualifies. Are there any other examples? Any that actually sold or are played? I'm aware of FATAL but as far as I know it's unplayable and I've never heard of anyone actually praising it. Personally I think that pervasive casual misogyny in gaming descends from a lot of factors, and I think it'd be very interesting to discuss what the "game industry" can do to fix that. Perhaps gamers would be less prone to making light of surprise sex if (for example) a lot more women played games, a lot more socially well-adjusted people played games, and a lot more people with unacceptable, obnoxious attitudes towards women found themselves unwelcome at any gaming table and in any games store.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 23:35 |
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Leperflesh posted:OK. I agree with all of that. Isn't there a similar problem with casual non-murder violence, though? There do seem to be people who think it's OK to start fistfights or beat their spouses or even their children. Cthulutech is one that gets tossed out a lot as is Carcosa and Poison'd, I guess. There's also the state of fantasy art in general which is really pretty bad at all levels if you're going to talk about fostering a safe environment for women in gaming (which you should).
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| # ? May 17, 2012 23:47 |
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There was some eyebrow-raising over 'product of surprise sex' showing up on a grognardy parentage table in the new Hackmaster game (SA thread here), which led to some handwaving here and on Kenzer's part, and an explosion of dickwolves on their Facebook page when someone raised the topic there.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 23:49 |
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Leperflesh posted:I'm not sure what 'surprise sex culture' even is really, or what specific people mean by that term at least. I would really prefer to avoid an in-depth discussion of this topic in this thread, for several reasons, but I would really recommend that you research this topic. You're a smart guy, and I think understanding the power relationships in our culture is a good thing for intelligent people to have. Some of the readings I've done have literally changed the way I look at people while walking down the street - and that's a good thing. If you'd like some references or links, feel free to PM me. HOWEVER On the subject of the actual cancellation, it is wholly semantic whether or not we're going to call it censorship. I wouldn't. Yes, there are people who are crying all abloo-bloo about how Kickstarter is an evil corporation who is doing all sorts of fascist things to innocent people who just want to make an lovely card game about raping young girls. gently caress them. None of those people are in this thread. My problem is with the game itself. I think the last thing this hobby needs is another creepy aspect I have to hide from or struggle to explain to my friends. Tentacle: The Rapening is actively promoting some of the toxic aspects of this industry: awful design, horrible attitudes toward women, and the exploitation of nerd social failures to sell a loving game. Leperflesh posted:Personally I think that pervasive casual misogyny in gaming descends from a lot of factors, and I think it'd be very interesting to discuss what the "game industry" can do to fix that. Perhaps gamers would be less prone to making light of surprise sex if (for example) a lot more women played games, a lot more socially well-adjusted people played games, and a lot more people with unacceptable, obnoxious attitudes towards women found themselves unwelcome at any gaming table and in any games store. Essentially, this is what I am talking about. I want the industry to be going in the opposite direction, but right now we're stuck in this sort of feedback loop: these sorts of things aren't called out and vilified for what they are, so they gain acceptance among gamers who are already feeling isolated and socially awkward, which makes our hobby increasingly disturbing to people outside, which means no new views enter the hobby, which means the vile things aren't called out...
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| # ? May 17, 2012 23:51 |
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I do think it's amusing that compared to almost any other hobby or recreational activity I can think of, RPG players spend an inordinate amount of time having meta-discussions worrying about the health of the hobby or trying to make it mainstream. That's not to say it doesn't happen elsewhere, but RPG folks are way more focused on it than any other group I've seen.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 23:59 |
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whydirt posted:I do think it's amusing that compared to almost any other hobby or recreational activity I can think of, RPG players spend an inordinate amount of time having meta-discussions worrying about the health of the hobby or trying to make it mainstream. Part of the issue is that it's a primarily social pursuit that has kind of a negative reputation so it can be difficult to arrange games. I know that I personally worry about the health of the hobby because it affects my enjoyment of that hobby personally.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 00:02 |
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At least we're not anime fans. (Well I'm not, anyway.) Explaining away why you like to play RPGs when the perception is that it's a nerdy hobby full of nerds is still easier, I imagine, than explaining away why you like to watch animes when it's all about cartoons for kids and/or pervvy violent sex surprise sex shows (or both). But yeah, when I say I don't really know what's meant, exactly, by "surprise sex culture" I don't mean that I'm unaware of the issues. I mean that it's a vague term. I'm a writer, I care about words, and I'm acutely aware of the problems that arise when a key term is vague, or has multiple connotative meanings that aren't consistently intended. But I think it's a problem that's an aspect of a larger problem and I don't think progress is likely without addressing that larger problem. By which I mean, Americans' generally really unhealthy attitudes towards sex, violence, and women, and all the combinations of those three. It's reflected in our cultural artifacts, our social interactions, our politics, our religions, and certainly our subcultures too, to varying degrees. That's not to dismiss the idea that we can (and should) actively try to fix things in our hobby. Of course we should. And pointing out that tentacle surprise sex games being presented as lighthearted parody is disgusting and unacceptable is part of that. But having said it, I'm not sure there's much else to dwell on. We're pretty much all in agreement. Now what? e. I just realized that it might be worth pointing out this avatar and text were purchased on my behalf. I have never discussed dwarf tits.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 00:17 |
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So gau, are you going to be doing a kickstarter for your project or what? I'd be willing to kick in a little bit probably.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 00:22 |
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whydirt posted:That's not to say it doesn't happen elsewhere, but RPG folks are way more focused on it than any other group I've seen. I don't need 3+ other people to collect comic books with. Or watch anime with. Or build model trains with. Or to make beer with. I could go on, but I think the point stands.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 01:02 |
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Red_Mage posted:I don't need 3+ other people to collect comic books with. Or watch anime with. Or build model trains with. Or to make beer with. I could go on, but I think the point stands. I'm not denying that RPGs aren't a social hobby, just that compared to other social activities, even nerdy ones like Magic or Warhammer (although those really require having a network of more than 2 players since it gets pretty boring to play the same person all the time), there are more people spending too much time navel gazing about how to fix things instead of just running more games. I think it's a similar phenomenon to all the people who buy RPG books just to read them on the toilet. In other words, compared to other hobbies there are more people interested in the Idea of RPGs than actually playing them.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 01:29 |
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Dr Nick posted:So gau, are you going to be doing a kickstarter for your project or what? I'd be willing to kick in a little bit probably. Short answer: Yes! (Probably indiegogo, though.) Long answer: I am setting up my fundraising in a series of step-goals, so as to better realistically manage the scope of this project. I'm still wrenching out the particulars for rewards and goals, so none of this is cast in stone yet. Here are the tentative goals I set up in my preliminary plan: $500 will put me in a position to design, distribute, and evaluate the results of a basic digital survey of game retailers and then release the results with some analysis and summarization of the industry. $1,000 will allow me to perform a long-distance survey of a large sample of retailers and customers, digitally and/or by mail (I am still debating the relative effectiveness of these methods). It will put me in a position to get the project done in something other than "when I get it done." Remember that we're talking about a budget of a hundred hours of work, minimum. Above $1,000 (which will most likely be my "goal"), we start to add the bonus perks that I am really excited about. I can start planning trips to actual game store locations, to administer customer preference interviews and in-stock analyses in person. When combined with an online customer survey and connection interviews with online retailers, this will start to look like a complete picture of the industry in the United States. My "dream" scenario is a $5,000 National Tour in which I get to include a fully representative set of markets for the customer and stock surveys, and can devote a several months to this project, full-time. Just thinking about it gives me a tingle in my frontal lobe! So excited!
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| # ? May 18, 2012 01:51 |
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Gau posted:Short answer: Yes! (Probably indiegogo, though.) You are such a loving nerd.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 01:57 |
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Gau posted:Short answer: Yes! (Probably indiegogo, though.) I'd consider kicking in for this depending on when it went up and how long it was open.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 02:22 |
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Red_Mage posted:No it isn't. Kickstarter is a business, not a political entity. If they choose not to do business with you because they don't like what you are selling, that is not censorship, its risk management. It's also not a useless derail to note this, since it's a very serious threat to basic human rights that people need to be aware of. Myths like the Business Myths are part of why democracy is collapsing, please don't ever be glib or dismissive about that, tia. That doesn't justify the defence being used here, but due to the near-ubiquitous qualities of their platform and lack of real competitors, kickstarter is a defacto political authority, some would say monopoly, and, much like google and facebook, can use their 'business' decisions to manipulate the political rights of people using their services. The feedback loop unique to social media emphasises this factor, which is why possible rivals aren't really relevant to this discussion. Indygogo doesn't have poo poo on kickstarter, in community pull, or in it's ability to act as an unimpeachable gatekeeper. Obviously, it is vital to recognize their role and to brush it off as 'just business' is staggeringly idiotic. BTW this is all way more important than the supposed threat to the public posed by a bunch of perverts with a rapey card game or w/e. Catastropost fucked around with this message at May 18, 2012 around 02:48 |
| # ? May 18, 2012 02:37 |
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Catastropost posted:That doesn't justify the defence being used here, but due to the near-ubiquitous qualities of their platform and lack of real competitors, kickstarter is a defacto political authority, some would say monopoly, and, much like google and facebook, can use their 'business' decisions to manipulate the political rights of people using their services. I'm using IndieGoGo, because it is superior in nearly all ways to Kickstarter. 
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| # ? May 18, 2012 02:47 |
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Apart from community, which is why you should use kickstarter. This is exactly my point- it's not about the service, it's about the audience, the community. You certinly have much better odds of getting critical mass if you go to the service people actually use, the one which actually generates buzz. You should also be contacting companies prior to the launch and pitching them the idea. At the very least, talk to fred hicks/evil hat, they're very keyed into community, business talk, and they've generated some real kickstarter pull recently, also. The more connections like that you can get, the more likely you can make a real go of this.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 02:51 |
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Catastropost posted:I really don't want to give ammo to team Obvious surprise sex Apologism but that's actually an appaling and unworkable standardard for freedom of speech. I think I get what you're saying but I disagree with almost all the details. Kickstarter isn't that big in the scheme of things. They're popularizing an idea of a more democratic model of financing things which is exciting but they are far from a ubiquitous voice in... well, anything really.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 02:53 |
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They are a ubiquitous factor in crowdfunding. If you deny this, you don't know what you're talking about. Kickstarter and systems like it are as much about community as anything, and while that is certainly community external to the service in part, it's also community in the service, and familiar with it. It doesn't matter if indiegogo has better service- and i'm not saying it does, but I'm one of the ones who told this thread indiegogo exists back when people were ignorant of that. I know it's there. What matters is, who is going to recognize and trust the brand? Who's been involved in programs, or buzz about programs, before? There's a lot more to a successful crowdfunding push, but if you're not on the dominant platform, you're at a huge, huge disadvantage.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 02:59 |
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Catastropost posted:There's a lot more to a successful crowdfunding push, but if you're not on the dominant platform, you're at a huge, huge disadvantage. Could you elaborate on this point? I'm actually interested! I do want this to be successful, after all.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 03:04 |
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Catastropost posted:I really don't want to give ammo to team Obvious surprise sex Apologism but that's actually an appaling and unworkable standardard for freedom of speech. Really? "You don't have a right to use things owned by others" is unworkable? So Kickstarter has no right to limit access to their private property, even if people are doing things they don't want them to do (things which may in fact threaten their business)? What, if any, limits do you believe there should be on 'free speech'? quote:It's also not a useless derail to note this, since it's a very serious threat to basic human rights that people need to be aware of. Myths like the Business Myths are part of why democracy is collapsing, please don't ever be glib or dismissive about that, tia. And myths like "you can do and say whatever you want, and if someone stops you, that is censorship and they can't do that" is similarly harmful, and is literally used to silence the majority of people so that people with privilege don't have to feel uncomfortable with their awful values being called into question. Just because you only care about one aspect of this issue does not make it the only (or most important) aspect. quote:That doesn't justify the defence being used here, but due to the near-ubiquitous qualities of their platform and lack of real competitors, kickstarter is a defacto political authority, some would say monopoly, and, much like google and facebook, can use their 'business' decisions to manipulate the political rights of people using their services. It looks to me like the game company did exactly what they needed to here - put their project on Kickstarter, got advertising through it, got closed down there, opened elsewhere, and are successfully achieving their goal. At worst, they aren't achieving their goal as quickly as they might like, but that is not censorship. Also, no one has a 'political right' to crowd-fund a surprise sex-themed game. That is not free speech. Free speech is being able to post/say "hey I want to make a surprise sex-themed game", which they were allowed to do. No one stopped them from speaking, they stopped them from using Kickstarter to fund a business. Funding a business is not freedom of speech! quote:The feedback loop unique to social media emphasises this factor, which is why possible rivals aren't really relevant to this discussion. Indygogo doesn't have poo poo on kickstarter, in community pull, or in it's ability to act as an unimpeachable gatekeeper. Then it's a good thing that their actual speech wasn't infringed upon at all, and so they were able to use other forms of social media (the ones that actually deal in speech, and not in fund management and escrow services) to advertise their game and get enough attention to continue getting it funded. It's almost like they had a right to their speech, but not to using Kickstarter to collect and manage funds. quote:Obviously, it is vital to recognize their role and to brush it off as 'just business' is staggeringly idiotic. You can recognise their role without reaching the ludicrous conclusion that since they are the most effective, everyone has equal right to use them. And without stating super offensive poo poo like "my issues involving freedom of speech are more important than your issues with surprise sex culture oh and by the way, I am hugely unlikely to actually feel affected by surprise sex culture, which is why I can so flippantly dismiss it's importance". quote:BTW this is all way more important than the supposed threat to the public posed by a bunch of perverts with a rapey card game or w/e. Just so you know, minimising the harm caused by surprise sex culture is a way of actively participating in it. You aren't just 'giving ammo to team surprise sex Apoligism', you are literally actively participating in the culture of minimising and apologising for surprise sex. 
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| # ? May 18, 2012 03:51 |
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Gau posted:Could you elaborate on this point? I'm actually interested! I do want this to be successful, after all. eBay is another good example: there are other auction sites out there, but they're all niche ones that focus on one specific product, there's no space in the public consciousness for two "general purpose e-garage sale sites" Which isn't to say users are going to keep using eBay or Google, they can flip on a dime and start using bidwist or AOL Search, but there will be a dominant platform that draws the userbase needed for that critical mass. See also, Friendster -> MySpace -> FaceBook
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| # ? May 18, 2012 04:19 |
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Catastropost posted:I really don't want to give ammo to team Obvious surprise sex Apologism but that's actually an appaling and unworkable standardard for freedom of speech. Holy poo poo are you literally claiming that freedom of speech somehow forces business to do business with whoever? Because if you are that is a really really dumb road to go down. Edit: This is identical to claiming that credit card companies should not be able to stop payments to child pornographers. One of the tenants of even a primitive barter economy is the ability to not barter with people who you know are going to screw you over. I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that Kickstarter (by which I mean amazon) had their legal team take a look at this. Their legal team might have pointed to the recently passed laws that changed it so drawn images can be considered pornography. Then they looked at the "we will draw you a person about to be raped" reward, realized someone was going to ask for Miley Cyrus, and shut it down quick so as not be an accessory to a felony. If you seriously are going to come out swinging for companies being somehow forced to be accessory to a felony, let me know now so I can stop wasting my breath. Red_Mage fucked around with this message at May 18, 2012 around 04:40 |
| # ? May 18, 2012 04:32 |
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Gau posted:Could you elaborate on this point? I'm actually interested! I do want this to be successful, after all. How many smaller rpg devs and fellow travelers have done kickstarter. How many of the big TTRPG crowdsourcing outcomes are on kickstarter- far west, dinocalypse, and OOTs all orbit around that area. Now compare those numbers for indiegogo. Oh wait, you can't, because there is no comparison. There is no contest. It's not fair, it's not Incentivising Features like people might pretend market forces would do- but it is the reality. You're looking for a critical mass. You're looking for a community sufficient to perpetuate itself and promote for you. You certainly need a community before you crowdsource- but the key here is for your community, to plug into a bigger comunity- that's why dinocalypse worked. That's why double fine took off. Indiegogo might have the crowdfunding app of the gods but it doesn't matter if it doesn't have the community. Kickstater is not just a crowdfunding platform, it's a social media platform. It's all about relationships, connections, recommendations, ect. And like all the best social media, it plugs into people who don't even use it, or use it that often. Wether or not you're a dedicated user of twitter or facebook, you can stil find yourself drawn into it. I'm not in the US, but if I were to do crowdfunding, I would literally find a way to use Kickstarter to put it on. The community advantage is just too much. And consider, we're talking credit cards here. We're talking money. And we're talking a lot of trust, both in the offer, and in the platform. Even getting somebody to put their credit card info down on indiegogo is a struggle, work they have to do to reach you. Now consider how many people would do that for kickstarter without even thinking, or have already done so. Red_Mage posted:Holy poo poo are you literally claiming that freedom of speech somehow forces business to do business with whoever? Because if you are that is a really really dumb road to go down. If Googlebook.com controls 90% percept of people who are communicating online, then it's a direct threat to people's freedom of speech. Kickstarter doesn't dominate the numbers completly, but it controls community and dialogue. Catastropost fucked around with this message at May 18, 2012 around 04:48 |
| # ? May 18, 2012 04:38 |
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Catastropost posted:What you mean like Black people, Gays, Immigrants, Muslims? Yes? Obviously? That's not a freedom of speech issue.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 04:40 |
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Catastropost posted:What you mean like Black people, Gays, Immigrants, Muslims? Yes? Obviously? People who make games about surprise sex, literally an ethnicity. Cool. 
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| # ? May 18, 2012 04:41 |
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TOOT BOOT posted:That's not a freedom of speech issue.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 04:50 |
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Catastropost posted:What you mean like Black people, Gays, Immigrants, Muslims? Yes? Obviously? Dude. Seriously. Quit now. Like just stop arguing. You're consistently going too far in order to try and be right about this. Catastropost posted:Yes it is. If facebook decides muslims can't post about gitmo, that's a business decision? If art protesting against extrodinary rendition is taking off kickstarter- that's an act with clear political impact. *sigh* This is a far cry from "They won't let me kickstart a surprise sex RPG!" you know that, right? Dr Nick fucked around with this message at May 18, 2012 around 04:54 |
| # ? May 18, 2012 04:51 |
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Catastropost posted:Yes it is. If facebook decides muslims can't post about gito mebing bad, that's a business decision? If art protesting against extrodinary rendition is taking off kickstarter- that's a decision with clear political impact. HI I AM A BUSINESS CONTRACT THAT PEOPLE AGREE TO WHEN THEY START A PROJECT quote:Rules and Conduct The fact that people like you are unable to understand this is one of the reasons that RPG fans get considered toxic customers. Kickstarter has no obligation whatsoever to finance your fetish card game. Just like Oprah's magazine has no obligation to run ads for playboy, or PBS has no obligation to air NASTY NUDE NYMPHOS PART 14.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 04:55 |
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Dr Nick posted:Dude. Seriously. Quit now. Like just stop arguing. You're consistently going too far in order to try and be right about this.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 04:55 |
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Red_Mage posted:HI I AM A BUSINESS CONTRACT THAT PEOPLE AGREE TO WHEN THEY START A PROJECT quote:The fact that people like you are unable to understand this is one of the reasons that RPG fans get considered toxic customers. Red_Mage posted:Holy poo poo are you literally claiming that freedom of speech somehow forces business to do business with whoever? Because if you are that is a really really dumb road to go down. quote:Edit: This is identical to claiming that credit card companies should not be able to stop payments to child pornographers. quote:If you seriously are going to come out swinging for companies being somehow forced to be accessory to a felony, let me know now so I can stop wasting my breath. What i'm stating is the undeniable fact that private entities do not have the right to withhold essential and rights protected services without review. Property rights don't trump human rights, get that through your skull. Catastropost fucked around with this message at May 18, 2012 around 05:00 |
| # ? May 18, 2012 04:57 |
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| # ? May 23, 2013 09:16 |
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Catastropost posted:What you mean like Black people, Gays, Immigrants, Muslims? Yes? Obviously? Businesses aren't allowed to discriminate against you for being black/gay/immigrants/muslims. Being black/gay/an immigrant/muslim is not a freedom of speech. If Facebook decides Muslims can't post about gitmo, that's discrimination (because the only people they are taking issue with are Muslims, and that's what they are attacking, not the speech itself). If Facebook decides no one can post about gitmo, that's a legitimate business decision. If a company is silencing minority voices, the issue is not that they are attacking free speech, but that they are using the silencing of free speech as a tool to attack minorities.
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| # ? May 18, 2012 04:59 |
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