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Cymbal Monkey
Apr 16, 2009

Lift Your Little Paws Like Antennas to Heaven!

SubG posted:

The weird thing for me here is that when you're talking about Monk it sounds like you're not talking about Monk and when you're not talking about Monk it sounds like you're talking about Monk. But whatever.

If you like Mingus for the open compositional style, maybe Sun Ra, Pharoah Sanders, or late Coltrane? If it's the hard bop influences, Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers, or maybe Dexter Gordon? It's really hard (for me anyway) to get a line on what you're after because you're describing things by associations and we appear to have different associations with different jazz subgenres. Like you say smokey room atmosphere, tone and texture and I start thinking of classic bebop and maybe some earlier small-combo dixieland, the St Louis guys, and that kind of thing. And you talk about soloist wankery, post-bop is right up there at the top of places where I'd most expect to see it. I mean that's cool, you can like whatever music you want to like, no skin off my rear end. But it makes it difficult to figure out what you're after.

I should also say I only have a vague grasp on the terminology.

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BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

Cymbal Monkey posted:

I should also say I only have a vague grasp on the terminology.

Maybe start with some books, then.

Cymbal Monkey
Apr 16, 2009

Lift Your Little Paws Like Antennas to Heaven!

BigFactory posted:

Maybe start with some books, then.

I'm mostly going on the facts that I know what Darkjazz is and my friend told me Mingus is post bop.

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

Cymbal Monkey posted:

I'm mostly going on the facts that I know what Darkjazz is and my friend told me Mingus is post bop.

Dark Jazz is like anime soundtracks or something, right?

The book suggestion was serious. Or a jazz survey class if you're in college.

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.

BigFactory posted:

Dark Jazz is like anime soundtracks or something, right?
For the record I had no idea what darkjazz is either, and the first result in a google search is some subreddit. For whatever that's worth.

Some of Mingus' stuff is considered post-bop, but not all of it. Historically, it was just a period between (mostly) hard bop and free jazz. So you have guys like Miles having a post-bop period, and that's to call out that what they were doing in like '67 and to tell you that Miles Smiles is kinda different from Kind of Blue (before) and In a Silent Way (after), but you would never say that Miles or Mingus or Bags or Eric Dolphy was `a post-bop jazz musician' or whatever. I guess Mingus is a stronger case than the others because Mingus Ah Um is kinda the quintessential Mingus album (the way say Giant Steps is for Coltrane or Kind of Blue is for Miles) and you'd generally call it post-bop. But even then there's Blues & Roots which is a kind of sister album to Mingus Ah Um and it's solidly blues- and gospel-influenced hard bop.

Star
Jul 15, 2005

Guerilla war struggle is a new entertainment.
Fallen Rib
Based on you liking Ascenseur pour l'Echafaud I think I understand what you are trying to find even though your terms are, as people have said, not the more orthodox ones. More muted, slower jazz and a general lack of fast, more bebop-y improvisation huh? I would recommend looking up more of Miles stuff if you haven't already done that since he is the master of laidback, cool jazz (when he feels like it; the man can do anything), maybe his modal stuff, Porgy and Bess, Sketches of Spain, Miles Ahead, stuff like that. In general, I'd recommend trying out modal jazz and look into some of west coast jazz, I think it will be more to your liking than swing or bebop. Hopefully you'll find something you like. Otherwise drop some links to youtube with examples.

Ex. of what you might like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSGUPsAeL34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdLSMnQFs-A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv2GgV34qIg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8bP4jcGGAI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3K0D_etBLw

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.

Star posted:

Based on you liking Ascenseur pour l'Echafaud I think I understand what you are trying to find even though your terms are, as people have said, not the more orthodox ones. More muted, slower jazz and a general lack of fast, more bebop-y improvisation huh? I would recommend looking up more of Miles stuff if you haven't already done that since he is the master of laidback, cool jazz (when he feels like it; the man can do anything), maybe his modal stuff, Porgy and Bess, Sketches of Spain, Miles Ahead, stuff like that. In general, I'd recommend trying out modal jazz and look into some of west coast jazz, I think it will be more to your liking than swing or bebop. Hopefully you'll find something you like. Otherwise drop some links to youtube with examples.

Ex. of what you might like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSGUPsAeL34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdLSMnQFs-A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv2GgV34qIg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8bP4jcGGAI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3K0D_etBLw
If he's not digging on Monk because he thinks he's just seeing how many ways he can play the scale I really wouldn't expect him to be into modal stuff.

If the so-called third stream stuff works---like the classically-influenced albums Miles cut with Gil Evans---then that suggests maybe earlier stuff like Duke Ellington or, I dunno, Julius Hemphill (I'm thinking more of the Black Saint albums than the early avant-garde poo poo like Dogon AD)?

Cymbal Monkey, when you say you like Mingus, are we talking Mingus Ah Um Mingus, or more like The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady and like `Orange Was the Color of Her Dress, Then Silk Blue'? Because if it's more the latter than the former then maybe what you're after is more the third stream stuff than the post-bop stuff.

I just gave a listen to some Kilimanjaro Darkjazz Ensemble (to get to the bottom of this `darkjazz' thing) and it really sounds like light jazz-influenced ambient soundtrack work, like maybe something you'd hear in the background in a Japanese survival horror game or something. Which is I mean cool and whatever, but it's not really something I think of as a major subgenre of jazz.

Jrbg
May 20, 2014

If you like drones and stuff you can't go wrong with In A Silent Way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9X7XmigDxw

Alice Coltrane can help you here too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KeWGHuNwCE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFDiXszQeVY

But also for noisy stuff - I'd say Bitches Brew might be fun for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a1Ph-ioxoA

Beware none of this is traditional jazz. But I'd say you're at a stage where you'd have to work up to that. How much music theory do you know?

Star
Jul 15, 2005

Guerilla war struggle is a new entertainment.
Fallen Rib

SubG posted:

If he's not digging on Monk because he thinks he's just seeing how many ways he can play the scale I really wouldn't expect him to be into modal stuff.

If the so-called third stream stuff works---like the classically-influenced albums Miles cut with Gil Evans---then that suggests maybe earlier stuff like Duke Ellington or, I dunno, Julius Hemphill (I'm thinking more of the Black Saint albums than the early avant-garde poo poo like Dogon AD)?

Cymbal Monkey, when you say you like Mingus, are we talking Mingus Ah Um Mingus, or more like The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady and like `Orange Was the Color of Her Dress, Then Silk Blue'? Because if it's more the latter than the former then maybe what you're after is more the third stream stuff than the post-bop stuff.

I just gave a listen to some Kilimanjaro Darkjazz Ensemble (to get to the bottom of this `darkjazz' thing) and it really sounds like light jazz-influenced ambient soundtrack work, like maybe something you'd hear in the background in a Japanese survival horror game or something. Which is I mean cool and whatever, but it's not really something I think of as a major subgenre of jazz.

You're absolutely right that much modal stuff is "scale intensive" so to speak, but I find that some of it, especially the slower songs, can take on an almost soundscape -ish character and based on what Cymbal Monkey wrote I thought it might work.

Seventh Arrow
Jan 26, 2005

Also, if you really want to get into jazz, you absolutely need to see some good bands live. Listening to records is only going to get you so far.

Cymbal Monkey
Apr 16, 2009

Lift Your Little Paws Like Antennas to Heaven!

Star posted:

Based on you liking Ascenseur pour l'Echafaud I think I understand what you are trying to find even though your terms are, as people have said, not the more orthodox ones. More muted, slower jazz and a general lack of fast, more bebop-y improvisation huh? I would recommend looking up more of Miles stuff if you haven't already done that since he is the master of laidback, cool jazz (when he feels like it; the man can do anything), maybe his modal stuff, Porgy and Bess, Sketches of Spain, Miles Ahead, stuff like that. In general, I'd recommend trying out modal jazz and look into some of west coast jazz, I think it will be more to your liking than swing or bebop. Hopefully you'll find something you like. Otherwise drop some links to youtube with examples.

Sketches of Spain was loving cool. I love that full sound and slow melancholic progression.

Hank Mobley I wasn't as big on but I couldn't really figure out why. It really didn't fall into any of my standard jazz complaints but it didn't tickle me for whatever reason.

The Bill Evans piece is really pretty but I think lacks atmosphere.

I love the Chet Baker piece. When it comes to jazz leads that's how I like it done. Slow and thoughtful.

Blues for Pablo has some great segment but the more lounge-y segments lose me (watch me have misused that term)

That was a fantastic post though, thanks a bunch!


SubG posted:

If he's not digging on Monk because he thinks he's just seeing how many ways he can play the scale I really wouldn't expect him to be into modal stuff.

If the so-called third stream stuff works---like the classically-influenced albums Miles cut with Gil Evans---then that suggests maybe earlier stuff like Duke Ellington or, I dunno, Julius Hemphill (I'm thinking more of the Black Saint albums than the early avant-garde poo poo like Dogon AD)?

Cymbal Monkey, when you say you like Mingus, are we talking Mingus Ah Um Mingus, or more like The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady and like `Orange Was the Color of Her Dress, Then Silk Blue'? Because if it's more the latter than the former then maybe what you're after is more the third stream stuff than the post-bop stuff.jazz.

I quite liked The Black Saint, that's a really cool album.



J_RBG posted:

[some links]

Beware none of this is traditional jazz. But I'd say you're at a stage where you'd have to work up to that. How much music theory do you know?


In a Silent Way was so cool. I love the gradual but marked progression. I love things aren't mixed far apart (the lead isn't overwhelmingly louder than the rest of the instruments all the time) and I love Davis's use of subtle dynamics (subtle by my standards at least). I love how everyone in the mix feels like they're doing something, not just walking up scales back and fourth. This is a loving awesome recording.

Those Alice Coltrane songs though, especially the second one. Those are a loving trip and holy poo poo they sound loving amazing. I'll definitely be exploring her work more.

Bitch's Brew, also cool as hell.

Thanks for that!

As far as theory I can read jazz chord notation and know what that means and I know how chords are put together.

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.
Based on all that it sounds more like you're into avant-garde and free jazz (and maybe some third stream) than post-bop, really. But one of the things that all this discussion highlights is that all the genre and subgenre distinctions are there more to make shelving the records easier than as a serious tool for analysis. They're not normative. Sketches of Spain and In a Silent Way are both instantly recognisable as Miles and it totally makes sense that you could like both of them, but they're way different in terms of how you'd categorise them as subgenres of jazz.

My suggestion would be just grab the examples mentioned here that you like, listen to other poo poo by the same people, look up related material (the stuff that influenced and was influenced by the stuff you like) and so on. At least for me in music in general, and especially in jazz, the poo poo I really like is pretty much never the poo poo that's on anybody's list of standard recommendations. Not because my tastes are so obscure or anything like that, it's just that there's so loving much out there than any standard recommendations can't even begin to scratch the surface of any subgenre/artist/movement/whatever. Like some of my favourite recordings are the handful of tracks that Don Byas and Slam Stewart recorded together and they're not exactly obscure or anything, but you can dig through a whole shitload of bebop before hitting those recordings. The magical thing you're looking for is probably the same way.

Jrbg
May 20, 2014

Cymbal Monkey posted:

As far as theory I can read jazz chord notation and know what that means and I know how chords are put together.

Awesome, you're in for a ride. And to be honest that's practically where I am theory-wise, and it's done me OK so far.

Otis Reddit
Nov 14, 2006
Knock knock

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002
Who's there?

Otis Reddit
Nov 14, 2006
Darkjazz

Ernie.
Aug 31, 2012

Darkjazz who?

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002
Way to leave us hangin Otis

Ernie.
Aug 31, 2012

BigFactory posted:

Way to leave us hangin Otis

i think the joke was my line

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

Ernie. posted:

i think the joke was my line

That's not how knock knock jokes work

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010



If I want to start listening to Latin jazz, what albums/artists should I start with?

I pretty much only listen to jazz on the radio at this point.

cloudchamber
Aug 6, 2010

You know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine

22 Eargesplitten posted:

If I want to start listening to Latin jazz, what albums/artists should I start with?

I pretty much only listen to jazz on the radio at this point.

Getz/Gilberto by Stan Getz and Joao Gilberto is a classic. As is Stone Flower by Antonio Carlos Jobim.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010



Thanks, listening to Getz/Gilberto now. Actually, finished while I was typing it, listening to Stone Flower now.

The Wiggly Wizard
Aug 21, 2008


Chucho Valdes and Bebo Valdes are two of my favorite Latin Jazz artists. Not sure if they're related but I think they're both Cuban.

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002

22 Eargesplitten posted:

If I want to start listening to Latin jazz, what albums/artists should I start with?

I pretty much only listen to jazz on the radio at this point.

Tito Puente kinda rules.

Southern Heel
Jul 2, 2004

Re watched whiplash : is the style bebop? What should I be looking for, for similar ensemble jazz that is somewhat listenable (I,e not free/interpretive)

Ubiquitous_
Nov 20, 2013

by Reene

Southern Heel posted:

Re watched whiplash : is the style bebop? What should I be looking for, for similar ensemble jazz that is somewhat listenable (I,e not free/interpretive)

It's big band jazz/swing jazz. Caravan is a big band arrangement from 1937, and Whiplash is a time chart in 7/4 time signature. Whiplash has been used a lot by rock bands and such.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Does anyone have any recommendations for albums that come from the more melodic end of hard bop? Soul-jazz type stuff, I guess would be a good way of describing what I'm looking for. Organ-led or otherwise would all be appreciated.

cloudchamber
Aug 6, 2010

You know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine

Wheat Loaf posted:

Does anyone have any recommendations for albums that come from the more melodic end of hard bop? Soul-jazz type stuff, I guess would be a good way of describing what I'm looking for. Organ-led or otherwise would all be appreciated.

Not entirely sure what all the words in this post mean, but I think you might like Fingerlickin' good by Lonnie Smith:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu_A3JHUoKk

Relayer
Sep 18, 2002

22 Eargesplitten posted:

Thanks, listening to Getz/Gilberto now. Actually, finished while I was typing it, listening to Stone Flower now.

Hope you enjoy Stone Flower, it really is an incredible collection of songs. I'll often hear people dismiss it as "elevator music" and I get really irrationally upset and angry about it. :mad:

The Wiggly Wizard
Aug 21, 2008


Wheat Loaf posted:

Does anyone have any recommendations for albums that come from the more melodic end of hard bop? Soul-jazz type stuff, I guess would be a good way of describing what I'm looking for. Organ-led or otherwise would all be appreciated.

Not sure what you've listened to so far but

Hank Mobley - Soul Station
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6BeFs4Q31Q

HenryJLittlefinger
Jan 31, 2010

stomp clap


What song is the piano sample in this Goldfish song from? I think it's a Monk song, but can't find it for the life of me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTYxLgmd94E

tia

The Wiggly Wizard
Aug 21, 2008


HenryJLittlefinger posted:

What song is the piano sample in this Goldfish song from? I think it's a Monk song, but can't find it for the life of me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTYxLgmd94E

tia

Sounds like round midnight to me.

HenryJLittlefinger
Jan 31, 2010

stomp clap


I thought it might be. It's a recording I've heard before but can't track it down. Any ideas on which one?

Star
Jul 15, 2005

Guerilla war struggle is a new entertainment.
Fallen Rib

Wheat Loaf posted:

Does anyone have any recommendations for albums that come from the more melodic end of hard bop? Soul-jazz type stuff, I guess would be a good way of describing what I'm looking for. Organ-led or otherwise would all be appreciated.

Horace Silver's Serenade for a soul sister is great

BigFactory
Sep 17, 2002
I'm still waiting for the end of the knock knock joke.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

Star posted:

Horace Silver's Serenade for a soul sister is great


Oooh, I hadn't thought of Horace Silver.

Which is quite odd, actually, because "Song For My Father" was one of the first songs I learned from Babby's First Real Book back when I was younger. :v:

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010



BigFactory posted:

Tito Puente kinda rules.

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. Loving the Samba/Salsa stuff.

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless

22 Eargesplitten posted:

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. Loving the Samba/Salsa stuff.

You might also like Machito.

Dizzy Gillespie did a lot of Afro-Cuban stuff on his late 1940s recordings and into the 1950s.

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Jazz Marimba
Jan 4, 2012

Crossposting from the "help me ID a song" thread:

I'm looking for a specific version of the jazz standard Stolen Moments. It's a vocal version with a make singer, and during the B section of the head it has the lyrics "hold me and love me and..."

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