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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:It wasn't really a combo, there was a card called 'Ring of Ma'ruf' that let you put any card from outside your deck into play. Edit: Something like an enchantment that makes each card comes into a play as a monster with attack/defence of (cost)/(cost+1)? And then you stick some attack on it and kill your opponent with the rules for stud poker. Or an actual Unholy Strength'd Charmander. Splicer fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Nov 22, 2011 |
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Nov 22, 2011 11:44
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Speaking of the Star Wars CCG*, has anyone here tried the Wars TCG that decipher later came out with? I remember the hype for it and all the INTERNET 2.0 marketing being dedicated to it then nothing. I keep wanting to buy the 2 boxes + all starters deal on ebay for 30bux but I've been saying that for years now. * if you go into the star wars thread in GBS we talk about it every now and then so get them to post in here when it pops up next time if you want more discussion on that front
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Nov 22, 2011 16:02
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Fox of Stone posted:Speaking of the Star Wars CCG*, has anyone here tried the Wars TCG that decipher later came out with? I remember the hype for it and all the INTERNET 2.0 marketing being dedicated to it then nothing. I keep wanting to buy the 2 boxes + all starters deal on ebay for 30bux but I've been saying that for years now. I remember hearing about it but never played it. If it used the same basic rules as SWCCG I would be interested though.
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Nov 22, 2011 16:42
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The store I managed used to have 2 SWCCG World Champions as regulars there (Clifton Park, NY.) I remember when Decipher lost the license, WotC sent us a demo kit for their replacement Star Wars game. Myself and one of my employees sat down after work one night and busted out the decks to learn how to play in order to better sell it to the regulars. It had the tactical complexity of War. I remember we sat there disgusted after we were done. We ordered only a single box of starters and boosters, and it was over a year before those sold out. This was a store that ordered 5-6 cases of Decipher's CCG each expansion and burned through it in a week regularly. What a colossal cock-up that game was.
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Nov 22, 2011 17:51
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It did have the same basic rules but included the 4-copies-max rule of Magic.A Fancy Bloke posted:Myself and one of my employees sat down after work one night and busted out the decks to learn how to play in order to better sell it to the regulars. It had the tactical complexity of War. I remember we sat there disgusted after we were done. We ordered only a single box of starters and boosters, and it was over a year before those sold out. This was a store that ordered 5-6 cases of Decipher's CCG each expansion and burned through it in a week regularly. Yep. I remember being outraged too. There's a difference between your typical nerd rage which tilts at strawmen and the actual justified rage I saw because of this. You could say I'm still bitter about it but Richard Garfield is a bad game designer. He made that Yahtzee SWTCG game and Magic took several years to even get to a workable level with the stack system (borrowed and built from SWCCG if I recall). I don't know how his latest tokyo board game is but I don't have any faith in his abilities to create games.
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Nov 22, 2011 18:12
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Fox of Stone posted:Speaking of the Star Wars CCG*, has anyone here tried the Wars TCG that decipher later came out with? I remember the hype for it and all the INTERNET 2.0 marketing being dedicated to it then nothing. I keep wanting to buy the 2 boxes + all starters deal on ebay for 30bux but I've been saying that for years now. I never played the Star Wars CCG, but I played a little bit of Wars when it came out and really liked it. It would have probably been my favorite card game if the player base didn't die out after a couple of month here.
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Nov 22, 2011 19:42
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I bought four of the WARS starters out of the clearance bin at a local shop a couple years ago. I enjoyed it, but I basically only had four decks, total, and those decks were not spectacularly balanced against each other.
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Nov 22, 2011 19:46
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Fox of Stone posted:It did have the same basic rules but included the 4-copies-max rule of Magic. Hey now, RoboRally is a fine game. Magic was just something that happened because he couldn't get RR published.
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Nov 22, 2011 20:16
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I think it's pretty unfair to pan Richard Garfield as a bad game designer just because MtG Alpha didn't have all the kinks worked out yet.
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Nov 22, 2011 20:19
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whydirt posted:I think it's pretty unfair to pan Richard Garfield as a bad game designer just because MtG Alpha didn't have all the kinks worked out yet. Garfield was designing a very different game from what Magic ended up being. He wanted casual play to rule, and never imagined that people would want to play it competitively. Cards being really good or really bad was okay, because at most one or two Black Lotuses would make their way into a given play group. Once Magic became a hit, he didn't really know what to do with it (which is why the early sets are so very hit and miss).
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Nov 22, 2011 20:22
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It's not like he had a lot of other example games to work off of for reference.
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Nov 22, 2011 21:14
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The rare *lace cycle was objectively horrible though. Talk about a kick in the pants to my middle-school aged self when I opened a booster to find one of them as my rare. 
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Nov 22, 2011 21:15
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Magicpokey posted:Nope, I already checked. Is there a dedicated wowtcg thread? You can try looking here http://www.wowtcgdb.com/cards.aspx
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Nov 22, 2011 23:12
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Fox of Stone posted:Speaking of the Star Wars CCG*, has anyone here tried the Wars TCG that decipher later came out with? I remember the hype for it and all the INTERNET 2.0 marketing being dedicated to it then nothing. I keep wanting to buy the 2 boxes + all starters deal on ebay for 30bux but I've been saying that for years now. It was surprisingly worse, despite using many of the same mechanics. The biggest problem of the Wars CCG was that with the removal of Light/Dark (so all cards were unified within the same set, any deck could use any card) was they removed much of the identity that went into each different strategy - which made the metagame garbage. It also was really poorly designed for limited play with the core set, which also limited the potential for constructed formats. That, combined with terrible marketing, a company CFO who embezzled almost every dollar out of the company, and really poor decisions on artists - it just made for a really awful card game. One of these days I'll get around to posting my big ole honkin post on how fantastic and yet terrible the SWCCG game was. It really had excellent game mechanics that were essentially ruined by horrible game balance decisions, rules minutia and the "necessity" to have characters from the IP be vastly more powerful than any other card selection.
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Nov 22, 2011 23:47
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The Spoils: A tale of David and Goliath The Spoils definitely broke one of Gau's rules of 'How Not To Run a Game Business' in their plan. Primarily, The Spoils was intended to be a Magic Heartbreaker. Built by Ex-Magic competitive players, with some help from some industry old hands (Dylan Mayo, now in Wizards' R&D department), and with advice from some big names in the Magic competitive community, they were looking to produce a game that was going to challenge (And maybe topple) the industry giant. It all started with a 'mystery meat' tournament. They invited a bunch of gamers to a special event where they previewed the game in a limited format tournament. It had literally no flavor, it was mechanics only, but it excited some of them. It went into full development, with Jon Finkel as an early investor and 'creative advisor.' In 2006 they started thespoils.com, the hub of the community, and where they started previewing the game, including the rule book. They even offered a free pack to people who signed up to the forums, which is when they hooked me. During the summer of 2007 Tenacious Games ran their 'open beta' series. They printed an entire run of cards with unfinished art and gave it away. Thousands of drafts and sealed tournaments run, and awareness raised.  Then the full release, which is where they won the hearts of their fans. First, the Open Beta actually responded to real criticisms from the community and a number of cards were fixed for the full release. On a number of cards changed, the flavor text poked fun at the mistakes from beta. Some users even got their forum usernames referenced on cards. If only that had been all they'd done, but no. They offered a $1,000,000 competitive tournament circuit. Over the course of the $10Ks and eventually worlds (To be held on a chartered cruise) there would be a lot of money to be had in The Spoils. Too bad a recession and questionable profitability scared away their second round of investors. With no money, and now in debt to their own players, Tenacious Game floundered through another set and then folded. Sad day for the players. A year later, though, Arcane Tinmen announced they'd be picking up the game and continuing it, putting out another set (That had been almost finished under Tenacious) and then rebuilding the brand. They've put out two more sets since then, found a printer that makes some very nice cards, and are looking at the game with a long view that precludes million dollar purses. So what about the game? I like to tell players that if they know magic, I can teach them the differences in about ten minutes.  First, you have your faction card, which is much like the old Vanguard in Magic. Your faction tells you your starting life, starting hand, starting resources, and your Restore and Develop rules, plus a handful of abilities. Then resources, which operate almost identically to Magic. You play them in front of you, attach them to your faction to pay for things. Staple resources only give you 'color,' but any card in your deck can be played face down as a resource without color. Costs got split into two parts on Spoils cards. In the top left you have your 'numeric cost' which is the number of resources you pay to play the card. Then you have Threshold, which is the symbols under the Numeric Cost. For each symbol you need to have at least one of those icons in play, generally through your resources. The final big shake up for magic players is that there's now a third statistic on the characters. You have Strength, Life, and Speed. These are arranged together in the top right of the card. Speed comes into play in combat resolution and functions similarly to Magic's First Strike mechanic, except has more than one 'level.' The thing I like demonstrating to people with The Spoils is the rulebook, which fits on a single side of a fold out booklet that comes with every precon (And Competition pack, but those are going the way of the dinosaur.)
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Nov 23, 2011 17:37
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Abeya Minora posted:One of these days I'll get around to posting my big ole honkin post on how fantastic and yet terrible the SWCCG game was. It really had excellent game mechanics that were essentially ruined by horrible game balance decisions, rules minutia and the "necessity" to have characters from the IP be vastly more powerful than any other card selection. Dude, I know exactly what you mean. I both loved and hated the game for my late teenage years. My biggest problem was the rarity distribution and the need to have all the main characters to even compete past a certain point. Originally in the first set, there were like 7 Rarities if I remember right from the checklist. There were Common 1, 2 and 3, Uncommon 1 and 2, and Rare 1 and 2. Now a location that was central to the story, something like Mos Eisley or the Death Star Docking Bay, was very very common, probably 1 in every 4 packs. Main characters such as Darth Vader or Obi-Wan Kenobi were incredibly rare, and by that I mean probably 1 of either per 2 booster boxes. Now take into account that the game was incredibly synergistic, meaning that even if you pulled a Darth Vader, you wanted to have a Grand Moff Tarkin and a Vader's Lightsaber as well to make him awesome, which were also Rares. Then look at it vice versa and you opened a pack with a Vader's Lightsaber but you don't have Darth Vader, they're $60 and you'll probably never get one. Add to this the ultimate frustration of the terrible power level of some of the Rares and it gets really sad. Someone used the lace cycle from Magic as an example of terrible rares, but imagine if there were not only around 20 rares that were essentially laces, but that some of them only countered other laces. Also, some of them countered laces that had not even been printed yet. So you're a bright shiny youth spending all your allowance on 5 packs and you get...crap that may never be used by anyone anywhere in any level of the game ever. So if you need main characters to compete and you can't get them in packs, what do you do? Decipher released a Starter 2-player set for the Premiere Set and for the Hoth set that had terrible versions of the main characters. They were just awful in every way except that they happened to be named "Vader" and "Luke," so you could equip them with their unique weapons and use cards that needed them to be out. The guys that had all the right cards used to make fun of us for playing the "Wal-Mart" versions of Luke and Vader while they beat the unholy poo poo out of us. I'm trying to think of why I actually liked it now that I've written all of that, but I'm having a hard time. I liked that there were a lot of interesting niches that could be explored and many different paths to victory. However, these little side games could often lead to both players playing solitaire until one of them had won. I really liked when they introduced Objectives, which let you start with a lot of extra things out at the beginning of the game to help you achieve an epic event, such as blowing up planets or destroying the Endor shield generator. Also once you get the right cards together for a really synergistic deck, you really feel accomplished as all the pieces come together in a perfect storm of rear end whuppery.
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Nov 23, 2011 18:12
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Gau posted:Garfield was designing a very different game from what Magic ended up being. He wanted casual play to rule, and never imagined that people would want to play it competitively. Cards being really good or really bad was okay, because at most one or two Black Lotuses would make their way into a given play group. Once Magic became a hit, he didn't really know what to do with it (which is why the early sets are so very hit and miss). Ante was "optional" but who the hell puts ante rules AND ante-specific cards into a casual game? I remember busting those open way back and they were all poo poo cards that took my precious lunch money. I'd say something about "obvious" (probably only in retrospect) overpowered, unbalanced cards like ancestral recall too but every single card game somehow continues to make broken "draw X cards" cards like Bill or Pot of Greed before eventually banning or de-powering them. quote:I think it's pretty unfair to pan Richard Garfield as a bad game designer just because MtG Alpha didn't have all the kinks worked out yet. Having to go through the labyrinth of interactions before the 6th edition stack system leaves a permanent hole in your mind.
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Nov 23, 2011 18:27
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Fox of Stone posted:Ante was "optional" but who the hell puts ante rules AND ante-specific cards into a casual game? I remember busting those open way back and they were all poo poo cards that took my precious lunch money. I'd say something about "obvious" (probably only in retrospect) overpowered, unbalanced cards like ancestral recall too but every single card game somehow continues to make broken "draw X cards" cards like Bill or Pot of Greed before eventually banning or de-powering them. We played for ante at the store I played at, on Fridays/Saturdays we played huge 20 person melees and it was pretty fun. We would ante the top card as long as it wasn't a basic land, and things like dual lands and moxes always seemed to end up in the pot. Of course, Jeweled Bird and Bronze Tablet were staples to every deck and we played for trade back, meaning you had to give them a card of similar rarity for whatever you anted. It was a gentleman's agreement that you needed to trade something of at least similar value, and those who kept a stack of terrible rares to avoid this were punished in game for their transgressions. They were pretty much guaranteed to die by turn 4, usually by a Scryb Sprite that had been Giant Growth'd a few times by other people at the table and then Berserked, followed by a Lightning Bolt to the dome if that didn't finish them. It was the multiplayer aspect that got me into Magic in the first place and is one of the reasons I still love EDH. I enjoy the political aspects more than the mechanical interactions and some of the absurd play situations that pop up. Some just remind me of Shaharazhad...Fork it...Fork it...Fork it. Why is everyone scooping?
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Nov 23, 2011 18:48
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Abeya Minora posted:It was surprisingly worse, despite using many of the same mechanics. The biggest problem of the Wars CCG was that with the removal of Light/Dark (so all cards were unified within the same set, any deck could use any card) was they removed much of the identity that went into each different strategy - which made the metagame garbage. quote:One of these days I'll get around to posting my big ole honkin post on how fantastic and yet terrible the SWCCG game was. It really had excellent game mechanics that were essentially ruined by horrible game balance decisions, rules minutia and the "necessity" to have characters from the IP be vastly more powerful than any other card selection.
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Nov 23, 2011 22:59
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I've worked with Jason, I can imagine his dour face as he said that, and it makes that story twice as good for me.
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Nov 23, 2011 23:42
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Anyone here a player of the A Game of Thrones LCG? Some friends and I have split a starter set: Baratheon, Stark, Targaryen, and Lannister decks, and we're still getting used to our decks/specific niches/the game system in general, before going out to buy expansion packs.
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Nov 26, 2011 08:55
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Archenteron posted:Anyone here a player of the A Game of Thrones LCG? Some friends and I have split a starter set: Baratheon, Stark, Targaryen, and Lannister decks, and we're still getting used to our decks/specific niches/the game system in general, before going out to buy expansion packs. I know a guy who has a bunch of it. I really like the game. Don't own any myself.
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Nov 26, 2011 09:40
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Archenteron posted:Anyone here a player of the A Game of Thrones LCG? Some friends and I have split a starter set: Baratheon, Stark, Targaryen, and Lannister decks, and we're still getting used to our decks/specific niches/the game system in general, before going out to buy expansion packs. I am and I like it a lot. I have some decks but I haven't played that much since I don't have anyone to play it with right now. It's a pretty fun and casual game to play in that you're fine with the starter. I've become a big fan of LCG's recently because they aren't a big arms race like a lot of card games.
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Nov 26, 2011 09:53
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Archenteron posted:Anyone here a player of the A Game of Thrones LCG? Some friends and I have split a starter set: Baratheon, Stark, Targaryen, and Lannister decks, and we're still getting used to our decks/specific niches/the game system in general, before going out to buy expansion packs.  it's a barrel of laughs. The story card mechanic is great.gently caress paper shield though. gently caress it right into the ground.
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Nov 26, 2011 13:47
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Archenteron posted:Anyone here a player of the A Game of Thrones LCG? Some friends and I have split a starter set: Baratheon, Stark, Targaryen, and Lannister decks, and we're still getting used to our decks/specific niches/the game system in general, before going out to buy expansion packs. Was really big into the scene back when it was a CCG, lost interesting during the sweeping format change that was LCG. Still a very good game. Martell will always be my favorite house to play, though it'll never be as good as it was with Locked in the Tower.
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Nov 26, 2011 19:27
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I'm honestly surprised we're on page 6 and not a single person has mentioned the Vs. System CCG that Upper Deck put out for a while. For those not in the know, it was a game designed by a number of pro Magic players based in the Marvel and DC comics universe. I got really into it for a while, but they started introducing a lot of new mechanics all at the same time at one point and I just lost interest. I think there is still a player community keeping the game active, but I haven't looked into that in a while. Anybody else ever play this?
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Nov 28, 2011 21:47
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revengeanceful posted:I'm honestly surprised we're on page 6 and not a single person has mentioned the Vs. System CCG that Upper Deck put out for a while. For those not in the know, it was a game designed by a number of pro Magic players based in the Marvel and DC comics universe. I got really into it for a while, but they started introducing a lot of new mechanics all at the same time at one point and I just lost interest. I think there is still a player community keeping the game active, but I haven't looked into that in a while. Anybody else ever play this? I played it for a couple sets, but the power creep was completely outlandish. Probably the worst I've ever seen in a CCG, each expansion would invalidate 75% of your deck because strictly better cards were printed.
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Nov 28, 2011 22:17
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A Fancy Bloke posted:I played it for a couple sets, but the power creep was completely outlandish. Probably the worst I've ever seen in a CCG, each expansion would invalidate 75% of your deck because strictly better cards were printed.
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Nov 28, 2011 23:30
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Some of my friends played VS semi-competitively, they built me deck to use when I'd hit a tournament with them. Bat Family, all about team attacks (Similar to the X-Men mechanically). I never really got into it, really.
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Nov 28, 2011 23:34
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I was part of the pro scene for VS up until they killed the Pro Circuit and was part of the team that developed the Justice League of Arkham deck for PC San Fran. I'll do a write up soon but the main problem with the system was that the better player was going to win 90%+ of the time if you had even match ups on decks. They beat the variance out of TCGs so well it made it unfun for the casual crowd which is the bread and butter of TCGs.
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Nov 28, 2011 23:58
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revengeanceful posted:I'm honestly surprised we're on page 6 and not a single person has mentioned the Vs. System CCG that Upper Deck put out for a while. For those not in the know, it was a game designed by a number of pro Magic players based in the Marvel and DC comics universe. I got really into it for a while, but they started introducing a lot of new mechanics all at the same time at one point and I just lost interest. I think there is still a player community keeping the game active, but I haven't looked into that in a while. Anybody else ever play this? It was really, really terrible, even by the admission of the game "developers". A lot of the pro player design decisions were discarded by Upper Deck for being "too complex" or not as fiscally viable as "print a bunch of expansions that destroy the power level of the game). It also suffered from a dynamic where if you got behind a bit, you would stay behind forever. That doesn't make for great competitive or fun play.
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Nov 28, 2011 23:59
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Abeya Minora posted:It was really, really terrible, even by the admission of the game "developers". A lot of the pro player design decisions were discarded by Upper Deck for being "too complex" or not as fiscally viable as "print a bunch of expansions that destroy the power level of the game). I did like the idea of being able to use any card as a resource. Of course they reused that for WoW and it worked much better
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Nov 29, 2011 02:10
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The main problem that killed Vs. System was that they started off with a million-dollar pro circuit instead of starting small at the hobby-lobby leagues like EVERY OTHER SUCCESSFUL tcg. You can't say power-creep was the main reason and have Yugioh still exist as the #1 selling TCG in the world (or #2, close enough). Vs. System was by far the best game mechanically, but they started too big and never got the casual support until it was too late. Also, a lot of people bitched about Enemy of my Enemy. Oh boo hoo, you have a great card that cost maybe 35$ per. Yugioh and Magic have upwards of 60-70 per for cards like Tour Guide of the Underworld and Rescue Rabbit. Hell, Enemy was phased out of the Silver Age (Main, competitive format) so really it's just casual people that apparently never played any competitive games before. Abeya Minora posted:It also suffered from a dynamic where if you got behind a bit, you would stay behind forever. That doesn't make for great competitive or fun play. That was a problem in the early stages of the game, but if you missed your drops (Characters equal to the resources), it just means the deck isn't built well enough.
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Nov 29, 2011 10:36
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Tae posted:Also, a lot of people bitched about Enemy of my Enemy. Oh boo hoo, you have a great card that cost maybe 35$ per.
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Nov 29, 2011 10:46
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A lot of complaint began when Enemy of my Enemy was printed, which was basically a reliable tutor for any character card if you use more than one team (Like you play Teen Titans/Superman instead of just one team like Doom). Half of it was because it was a "power creep" when darkspider42's team made everyone's lives miserable with their deck and showing its true power. The other half was because it was such a "staple," you needed 4-of in every deck which would cost about 120 for a playset. 120 for the best playset in the game is absolutely nothing in a competitive card game, especially one that pays out hundreds of thousands of dollars. It really felt like these people are completely unknown to what a competitive card tournament is when people aren't just playing whatever.
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Nov 29, 2011 11:06
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Tae posted:The main problem that killed Vs. System was that they started off with a million-dollar pro circuit instead of starting small at the hobby-lobby leagues like EVERY OTHER SUCCESSFUL tcg. You can't say power-creep was the main reason and have Yugioh still exist as the #1 selling TCG in the world (or #2, close enough). quote:Vs. System was by far the best game mechanically
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Nov 29, 2011 13:43
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A Fancy Bloke posted:This is so subjective. Agreed. I've played VS. I've played quite a few other games that both felt more interesting/engaging and that I enjoyed more. Did anyone ever play C23? It was basically this really weird, futuristic 3-color magic with art by some of the 90's Image Comics folk. The only reason I picked up a starter was that the local shop had a cheap games section and some friends and I had some extra cash. This is also how we stumbled on Dark Age (which was a really strange, kind of awesome game that came with some of the most poorly made dice ever). And I think Hecatomb has already been mentioned, but it can be a lot of fun too (most booths at GenCon sell a set of 3 booster boxes, a starter deck and a deck box for ~$40). bairfanx fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Nov 29, 2011 |
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Nov 29, 2011 17:13
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Gau posted:Garfield was designing a very different game from what Magic ended up being. He wanted casual play to rule, and never imagined that people would want to play it competitively. Cards being really good or really bad was okay, because at most one or two Black Lotuses would make their way into a given play group. Once Magic became a hit, he didn't really know what to do with it (which is why the early sets are so very hit and miss). Funny thing is that when I transitioned from the 2010 Duels of the Planeswalkers to Shandalar (the 1997 Microprose MTG), I realized that I enjoyed the variety of mechanics from the old school MtG way more. It felt like transitioning from a brainier Yugioh to something pretty amazing. Either that or I just had a lot of fun using Icy Manipulator and Winter Orb. At least it's different from, whoo everyone gets a tribal, duke it out! Edit: VS System was so confusing. I still have no clue how to play that game.
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Nov 29, 2011 17:53
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All this chat reminded me of the time back in high school when our gaming club decided to take a cue from an Inquest article and play a giant multiplayer game with everyone using a different CCG (doing the best we can to adapt rule sets between games). If I remembered the details better I'd probably put this in the worst experiences thread, but all it's just a 2 hour blur of arguments and frustration. Pretty much everyone sane realized how un-fun it was (so only about half of us), and when time was up for the day we just decided to mark it in the "bad idea" column and leave, but the Rage player was adamant that everyone remember what they had in play in order to pick it up again the next week. After another few minutes of arguing we decided to settle it by having my friend (playing Illuminati) trade me (playing Sim City) New York City for a random house and declaring that the value of every single building and street in NYC would give me more than enough points to win.
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Nov 29, 2011 18:51
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r1ngwthszzors posted:Edit: VS System was so confusing. I still have no clue how to play that game. I never saw the game as confusing. The life loss mechanics when you get beat were odd, but otherwise it played similar enough to Magic to pick up quickly.
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Nov 29, 2011 19:56
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