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Amused to Death posted:The Transsexual Lifetyle sounds like some terrible porno title in the making. No, it sounds like the next Janice Raymond album.
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| # ? Dec 23, 2011 22:44 |
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| # ? May 22, 2013 00:55 |
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teh winnar! posted:No, it sounds like the next Janice Raymond album. Has she actually made albums?
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| # ? Dec 23, 2011 22:53 |
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I'm very confused about this "transsexual lifestyle" thing. For the sake of all that's holy, how could there even BE one? All we want is to become who we are and do so as smoothly as possible. There's no lifestyle involved. It's not like I get a kick out of wearing women's clothes or wanting shoes or whatever - it's just part of who I am, (and frankly, women's clothes are more comfortable for me than men's!)
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| # ? Dec 23, 2011 23:36 |
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There is no transsexual lifestyle and there could never be unless we're all part of some monolithic structure. The closest thing I could imagine are the HBSers who can be summed up in(and stealing this line from someone else who once posted it here), 1950's but with more pink. Certain doctors may have their own standard of femininity that they expect "real trans-women" to live up to, but basically these people should be avoided, and probably need to not be working with anything gender related. I get a kick out of women's clothing, not sexually though, it's that clothing is actually fun now and not all blah. For once in my life I actually kind of, sort of, like how I look in something. Like the dress I found at the flea market last weekend, I made it into a top and I look loving adorable in it.
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| # ? Dec 23, 2011 23:58 |
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Amused to Death posted:I get a kick out of women's clothing, not sexually though, it's that clothing is actually fun now and not all blah. For once in my life I actually kind of, sort of, like how I look in something. Like the dress I found at the flea market last weekend, I made it into a top and I look loving adorable in it. I'm staying in France with my family at the moment and the mall here used to be horribly boring: an electronics shop and game shop and everything else was basically just fashion. Now it's like walking into paradise! Clothes and perfume and jewelry and shoes that don't fit me and oh god I want it all. What's that make-up shop employee? You said 'bonjour madame' as I walked in? Now I will absolutely buy your overpriced eyebrow pencil.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 00:08 |
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I'm starting to wonder if what MageMage is referring to as a 'transexual stereotype' is the type of 'guy in drag/hypermasculine woman on T' stereotype that seems prevalent in the media; see for example that ITV transexual TV show that was brought up here a while ago. I can understand where she's coming from, as I don't want to be associated with that kind of environment either, I just want to quietly go through this process and come out as a woman at the other end. But a part of me despairs that that's how I might end up anyway, or at least, that it's how people will percieve me.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 00:25 |
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Serifina posted:I'm very confused about this "transsexual lifestyle" thing. As others have said, I think she's referring to COGIATI-style nonsense where you have to conform to points A through Z in the gender dysphoria guidebook or else turn in your trans badge. And to be fair, that's a notion that might have been put into her head by supposedly trustworthy people like her therapist and whatever support system she has for herself. And if that's the case, mage, then you need to get a new therapist/support group/source of advice - nobody would expect you to follow a precise psychological profile if you weren't trans, and there's no reason for you to conform to somebody else's notions just because you are. And if it's gatekeepers who won't give you what you need unless you do, then you need to find another way to do it. It sucks, but the alternative would probably be way more damaging.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 00:34 |
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Black Lighter posted:As others have said, I think she's referring to COGIATI-style nonsense where you have to conform to points A through Z in the gender dysphoria guidebook or else turn in your trans badge. And to be fair, that's a notion that might have been put into her head by supposedly trustworthy people like her therapist and whatever support system she has for herself. I'm glad you understand. I've been going through this for roughly a decade, and I never thought it would get this bad. That's a really darn shame about Perovic. That actually makes me feel pretty sad. And I don't care what any of you say about my lacking female internal organs. They are all there. I just need access to them! I don't need to go find a therapists or other people or whatever to tell me otherwise. That's not the kind of help I need. I appreciate everyone's support. Lexical Unit posted:Again, what the hell lifestyle are you talking about? And yeah, "true/secondary" sounds like bullshit invented by some cis person who doesn't know a drat thing about transsexuality. I've never heard of it before now and I doubt it will gain any significant adoption in the future. I was referring to the conditions under which Aetna covers sexual reassignment surgery. You have to be determined to be a "true transsexual" to be covered, and not a "secondary" transsexual which is determined by the doctors and psychiatrists. MageMage fucked around with this message at Dec 24, 2011 around 01:08 |
| # ? Dec 24, 2011 01:05 |
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MageMage posted:I'm glad you understand. I've been going through this for roughly a decade, and I never thought it would get this bad. I'm glad to be of any kind of help, and I really do hope that whatever you're going through, you find some way to feel better. But... quote:And I don't care what any of you say about my lacking female internal organs. They are all there. I just need access to them! I don't need to go find a therapists or other people or whatever to tell me otherwise. That's not the kind of help I need. ...Yeah, I really think you need to find a therapist to help you with this. It doesn't make you less of a woman because you were born with the wrong set of organs, but you were born with them. You don't have a uterus or anything like it, and I think not accepting that might be really harmful to you in the long run. You got a crappy enough deal being trans; please don't make it harder for yourself than it has to be.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 02:05 |
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MageMage posted:I was referring to the conditions under which Aetna covers sexual reassignment surgery. You have to be determined to be a "true transsexual" to be covered, and not a "secondary" transsexual which is determined by the doctors and psychiatrists. Which doctors are these that have defined 'true' and 'secondary' to a common definition? What do these terms ACTUALLY mean since so far, no one seems to know but plenty are treating the need to make any distinction at all as just another form of gate keeping/denying coverage without appearing to. Does a true transsexual have to have known since birth? Match HBS? COGIATI? And while I don't have the particular text in question I believe someone said earlier on that psychologists don't have much to offer here.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 02:06 |
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MageMage posted:And I don't care what any of you say about my lacking female internal organs. They are all there. I just need access to them! I don't need to go find a therapists or other people or whatever to tell me otherwise. That's not the kind of help I need. Please, please see a therapist about this.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 03:24 |
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Its seems to be useless to despair over the terms. After all, any doctor would just go by what you tell them, right? I mean, they won't be able to implicitly know what you feel. Thats kind of what the rle is for for the surgery. It seems to me that its supposed to be a self reflection period for you so you can find out what works for you. The only thing is the use of the term 'true' but really that is just a thoughtless classification. Besides, its not 'true women' just transgender. I dont really care what kind of transgender label is applied to me as long as woman is there without modifiers.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 03:35 |
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A little bit of holiday joy: I came out to both my older siblings and they were totally supportive and loving, if not a little confused. I think it was the first time my brother has shown physical affection to me since I was in elementary school. Now I just have to come out to the rest of my extended family (that can wait a little). But I'm going to go part time at home and uni in the spring in anticipation of getting hormones late spring/early summer.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 05:44 |
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Coffee Quack posted:Which doctors are these that have defined 'true' and 'secondary' to a common definition? The idea of primary vs. secondary transsexualism apparently originated with a couple of dudes in the 70s named Person and Ovesey, although the exact boundaries of who gets lumped into which group has changed a bit over time. Primary transsexuals, in general, are ones who fit the classic stereotype: knew they were trans from a very early age, either asexual or exclusively attracted to men, place a high value on traditional expressions of femininity. Everyone else is a secondary transsexual. The assumption is that primary transsexuals are maybe-possibly-depending-on-who-you-ask ~really trans~ due to some kind of inherent neurological thing going on in their brains, while secondary transsexuals aren't actually trans but want to transition for various psychological and social reasons, usually a fetish or something. Psychologists (or, more often, psychiatrists) who think this distinction is meaningful justify it on the basis that trans women who place less value on traditional femininity tend to act in less traditionally feminine ways, and therefore can't be real women.
Thuryl fucked around with this message at Dec 24, 2011 around 06:11 |
| # ? Dec 24, 2011 05:46 |
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Plom Bar posted:Yeah...see, this falls under delusional thinking patterns, and is definitely something you need to bring up with a psychological professional. Believing that you have organs that you don't actually have doesn't make a compelling case for your soundness of mind when getting psychologically evaluated. No, I am not going to actively seek out somebody just to convince me over speculation. All I want is to get fixed and move on. If I was fixed, I wouldn't even be here. I wouldn't even be having to go to groups, etc. I wouldn't be begging talk show personalities and going on somethingawful and going to trans groups. I'm desperate. I don't need to be condescended, I just came here for support on surgery, and it is because of that I have mental issues. I've seen enough quacks, and just because it seems like the most obvious solution, doesn't mean it is.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 06:03 |
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MageMage posted:No, I am not going to actively seek out somebody just to convince me over speculation. All I want is to get fixed and move on. If I was fixed, I wouldn't even be here. I wouldn't even be having to go to groups, etc. I wouldn't be begging talk show personalities and going on somethingawful and going to trans groups. I'm desperate. I don't need to be condescended, I just came here for support on surgery, and it is because of that I have mental issues. I've seen enough quacks, and just because it seems like the most obvious solution, doesn't mean it is. e: does unlocking your vag come with an achievement? i need to build my gamerscore >_> Loretta Trampface fucked around with this message at Dec 24, 2011 around 06:14 |
| # ? Dec 24, 2011 06:09 |
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MageMage posted:No, I am not going to actively seek out somebody just to convince me over speculation. All I want is to get fixed and move on. If I was fixed, I wouldn't even be here. I wouldn't even be having to go to groups, etc. I wouldn't be begging talk show personalities and going on somethingawful and going to trans groups. I'm desperate. I don't need to be condescended, I just came here for support on surgery, and it is because of that I have mental issues. I've seen enough quacks, and just because it seems like the most obvious solution, doesn't mean it is. Have you considered the possibility that your frantic mental state is, indeed, a hindrance to getting the physical care that you need?
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 06:10 |
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MageMage posted:No, I am not going to actively seek out somebody just to convince me over speculation. All I want is to get fixed and move on. If I was fixed, I wouldn't even be here. I wouldn't even be having to go to groups, etc. I wouldn't be begging talk show personalities and going on somethingawful and going to trans groups. I'm desperate. I don't need to be condescended, I just came here for support on surgery, and it is because of that I have mental issues. I've seen enough quacks, and just because it seems like the most obvious solution, doesn't mean it is. This is going to come off harsh, but what happens when you get SRS, and still can't access all the organs you're so convinced you have? The reality is that you don't have a uterus, and medical technology is not at the point where you can have one. That doesn't and will not make you any less of a woman, but if you're pinning it all to that, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 06:22 |
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MageMage posted:No, I am not going to actively seek out somebody just to convince me over speculation. All I want is to get fixed and move on. If I was fixed, I wouldn't even be here. I wouldn't even be having to go to groups, etc. I wouldn't be begging talk show personalities and going on somethingawful and going to trans groups. I'm desperate. I don't need to be condescended, I just came here for support on surgery, and it is because of that I have mental issues. I've seen enough quacks, and just because it seems like the most obvious solution, doesn't mean it is. Uh, no competent, trustworthy surgeon is going to perform surgery on you without recommendation(s) from therapists and/or primary doctors, and the type of surgery you need has pretty drat specific requirements. And like the others have said, what you have posted here does not speak well about your state of mind, and I can all but guarantee it will hinder your goals. Seeing a therapist is not something you should be avoiding. Unless you've got x-rays and such that show you have a spare set of female organs locked away inside, what you're dealing with is some pretty hefty delusions and dysphoria and you will have to see a therapist about this eventually.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 08:18 |
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e.
Showcase SHODAN fucked around with this message at Apr 14, 2013 around 03:43 |
| # ? Dec 24, 2011 10:18 |
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Clearly, I have come to the wrong place to get help. If I want make-up tips or something silly like that yeah, this is a good spot. Otherwise, you are all bunch of patronizing, common thought... "club members". I have more than enough merit to get surgery, it's just finding a surgeon. It's been recognized by multiple people the mental breakdown I experience from this, and to assume that I wont get surgery because I have mental issues because I need surgery, that's the stupidest assumption I've ever heard. Do you listen to yourself sometimes? I told you, I've seen therapists multiple times in my life. You guys think you know the medical system, but you don't. You think you know everything about me you need to know, but you don't. I'm not going to get in any tissies about the science of endometriosis, or any subject about myself over any of you. I've been going through this for 10 years, and all it is is about finding the funds to get fixed. That's it. I don't need to be judged, or told by a bunch of people that I don't have female sexual organs when not a single person on this forum has seen an x-ray inside of me? Or the monstrosity between my legs? If I don't have them now, they we're removed at birth. There are still external remains, and it makes me sick every time I see them. I feel more and more broken just for that reason. Edit: No, I'm going to poke around. Maybe there is someone out there whose willing to assist me. After all, there are thousands of people on these forums.... MageMage fucked around with this message at Dec 24, 2011 around 18:49 |
| # ? Dec 24, 2011 16:49 |
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woah
Lady Dank fucked around with this message at Sep 9, 2012 around 17:26 |
| # ? Dec 24, 2011 17:01 |
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This is not a hugbox. We will not feed unhealthy delusions. We can suggest help for constructive directions but if you want people to agree to your thoughts on having phantom organs that don't exist then clearly this is not the forum for you. You are distressed over what you have, which is understandable and so I'm sorry if I come across as harsh. It would be irresponsible to not suggest therapy.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 17:17 |
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I mean, based on what she just said, it's completely possible that she's intersex. But it's very hard to tell what she's saying is true and what's frantic and delusional.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 17:21 |
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I think that's the first meltdown for this version of the TMT.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 17:33 |
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MageMage posted:It's been recognized by multiple people the mental breakdown I experience from this, and to assume that I wont get surgery because I have mental issues because I need surgery, that's the stupidest assumption I've ever heard. Example SRS Insurance Req (from AETNA) posted:[...] It is a very real thing that often to be accepted as qualified recipients of any insurance for surgery that we must show we are not possibly doing this for any different less-obvious reason than gender dysphoria which may prove riskier to the insurance and doctors in case of malpractice, etc. Saying things like "they were removed at birth" and so forth without really conclusive evidence (which you may or may not have) may suggest to some that it might be some form of body dysmorphia that is beyond the typical transsexual fare, possibly delaying or denying their acceptance of your claim to use their insurance to help; or, worse, that you may be having a psychotic episode in which you imagined having these things, and so on. (Not saying you aren't legitimately dealing with a unique situation, but if you are it would be extremely uncommon and you would have to have some sort of evidence to be able to tell skeptics that you aren't just another Crazy Tranny™.) Also, your fairly frantic posts (read: Sure, some of us are annoyed with the language bordering on hyperbole and the hysterical tone of many of your posts, but it doesn't change the fact that you should seriously consider these things if you are considering SRS with any reputable surgeon and certainly if using any sort of insurance to cover costs.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 17:41 |
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I don't mean to be rude or anything, Magemage, but you said you had an orchiectomy in the past (thus proving you did have testicles). Because of this, the only condition you could have where you could have a uterus at all is Persistent Mullerian duct syndrome, but, people who have that do not have any noticeable malformation to the external genitalia at birth, there is nothing to "remove" for people with it to look like "normal" baby boys - the whole area there looks unambiguously male. The uterus that develops is also very undersized and nonfunctional, and it wouldn't be possible for endometriosis to occur with it. Either you were born with an intersex condition where your genitalia were reconstructed to appear male (and at most, you would have had a vagina and labia, but no uterus, fallopian tubes, etc) OR you were born with a small nonfunctional uterus that was partially attached to the vas deferens, but without any genitalia reconstruction being done. It can't be both, the conditions that cause them are mutually exclusive. From the information you posted, as well, the having a uterus thing is extremely unlikely. Goatface Killa posted:I mean, based on what she just said, it's completely possible that she's intersex. But it's very hard to tell what she's saying is true and what's frantic and delusional. The intersex condition of a small nonfunctioning uterus developing in a male is both extremely rare and also requires that the external genitalia look completely normal. Any kind of ambiguity in appearance there would be impossible to occur at the same time as having the uterus. It would also not be possible for them to have endometriosis as they said they "felt like" they do. She said she has "external remains" - it is explicitly not possible for the Persistent Mullerian duct syndrome to occur at the same time as any of the intersex conditions where testicles are present and ambiguous genitalia present, such as a rudimentary vagina. Given probability and what she's said, it's much more likely that she had male assignment reconstruction performed at or just after birth, than that she has a uterus, and again, it can't be both.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 17:45 |
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MageMage posted:
This combined with no posting info about being intersex suggests she knows it's not healthy to think it but it's been a coping mechanism.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 17:54 |
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Teabiscuit posted:I think that's the first meltdown for this version of the TMT. I'm somewhat new to these threads, is this kind of thing a common occurrence?
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 18:00 |
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Goatface Killa posted:I mean, based on what she just said, it's completely possible that she's intersex. But it's very hard to tell what she's saying is true and what's frantic and delusional. Around the time I registered, I did a "ask me about being an inter-sex female" in ask/tell. I don't remember much of it, but I did explain about hormones, voice, legality, and probably talk much about my genitalia. A lot has been sorted out in these last 4 years. I don't have archives but if you want to play 'internet detective' have fun with it. If anyone honestly wants to offer me support without facing ridicule, I'm open to it. I mean, this thread isn't a novelty, right??
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 18:48 |
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Teabiscuit posted:I think that's the first meltdown for this version of the TMT. I know you want to feel this is a meltdown, but it's not. It's a heavy personal problem that could happen to anyone in any situation, given it stressful enough.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 18:51 |
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MageMage posted:Around the time I registered, I did a "ask me about being an inter-sex female" in ask/tell. I don't remember much of it, but I did explain about hormones, voice, legality, and probably talk much about my genitalia. A lot has been sorted out in these last 4 years. I don't have archives but if you want to play 'internet detective' have fun with it. If anyone honestly wants to offer me support without facing ridicule, I'm open to it. I mean, this thread isn't a novelty, right?? Well did you have ambiguous genitalia at birth or not? If you did, you can't have the condition that causes a rudimentary uterus to form while also having testicles, the functioning of the genetic defect doesn't allow that. It seems that people are mostly being put off by your claim to having had certain organs at some point, and don't believe you since it's implausible, especially when considered in combination with other things you've said about yourself.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 19:26 |
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I want to preface this by saying that I can only speak for what I personally believe to be the case, as I held off on posting since everyone else already seemed to be giving the advice that I was going to give. If I'm misinterpreting or misrepresenting what anyone was trying to do or say, then I apologise ahead of time. Now then: MageMage posted:Around the time I registered, I did a "ask me about being an inter-sex female" in ask/tell. I don't remember much of it, but I did explain about hormones, voice, legality, and probably talk much about my genitalia. A lot has been sorted out in these last 4 years. I don't have archives but if you want to play 'internet detective' have fun with it. If anyone honestly wants to offer me support without facing ridicule, I'm open to it. I mean, this thread isn't a novelty, right?? MageMage posted:I know you want to feel this is a meltdown, but it's not. It's a heavy personal problem that could happen to anyone in any situation, given it stressful enough. The problem is that, simply, we can only judge based on the information we have, not the information we don't have; we can't factor in what we don't know, and I personally believe that it's fair to say that most people here didn't know you had posted a thread about being born intersexed. I certainly didn't know, and I've been following this thread for several iterations. All the way back to the first one, I think, but the exact one isn't important right now. What is important is that we're all mere humans just like you, so please don't assume that we know everything about everyone in the thread, especially since there are so many posters, even just among the regulars, to keep track of. For our parts, what we knew and/or believed we knew was simply this: You are trans; you post in a thread that has or should have a reputation of being frank and earnest; and you are distraught over body parts that you say were taken from you without your consent. From our perspective—and I'm not saying that ours is any more or any less valid than yours—we had no real of knowing if you were using it as a way to cope, if you were genuinely sincere and had a solid reason to believe that those parts were in fact taken from you, or if you were actually having a break of some sort. And, given what I said before—that everyone in this thread wants only the best for everyone else in it, regardless of what "best" may be in each instance—it seemed safest to recommend that you talk to a knowledgable professional. That's all that it is. We (and by we I mean they, since I didn't actually post until now) were playing it safe, and making recommendations that we believed were best for your own personal mental and emotional safety based on the knowledge available to us.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 19:37 |
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Alright since you're actually intersex then I apologise but if might have been useful to mention it to the thread.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 20:13 |
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I know a lot of people just want to sort out what MageMage is saying and try to give relative advice, but we really don't have a right to ask if she is or is not intersex or what organs she has. It seems to me her issue is, she wants SRS and just lacks the funds to get it, so any advice other than "just get a job durr" should be the focus of this conversation.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 22:00 |
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Immigrate to somewhere like england, I think you just have to be here like 5 years and you can NHS up for a free vagina.
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| # ? Dec 24, 2011 22:13 |
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MageMage posted:Clearly, I have come to the wrong place to get help. If I want make-up tips or something silly like that yeah, this is a good spot. Otherwise, you are all bunch of patronizing, common thought... "club members". I have more than enough merit to get surgery, it's just finding a surgeon. It's been recognized by multiple people the mental breakdown I experience from this, and to assume that I wont get surgery because I have mental issues because I need surgery, that's the stupidest assumption I've ever heard. Do you listen to yourself sometimes? Assuming you're american, I think vermont has a really good SRS program that you can get even if you're on the dole? It takes like half a year to get residency, that's all. If you've been at this as long as you have, then it's probably safe to say that'll be faster than whatever you've tried so far. Clairetic fucked around with this message at Dec 25, 2011 around 03:35 |
| # ? Dec 25, 2011 03:20 |
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MageMage posted:Clearly, I have come to the wrong place to get help. If I want make-up tips or something silly like that yeah, this is a good spot. Otherwise, you are all bunch of patronizing, common thought... "club members". I have more than enough merit to get surgery, it's just finding a surgeon. It's been recognized by multiple people the mental breakdown I experience from this, and to assume that I wont get surgery because I have mental issues because I need surgery, that's the stupidest assumption I've ever heard. Do you listen to yourself sometimes? Instead of telling us straight up front what we needed to know in the issue, you decided to act very, very bitchy about the whole thing. We were trying to help with what WE could see - because you're very correct, we do not know you, and can only go by what you've said. Further, let me add that this is a trans thread - when people ask for help with this sort of thing, we're of COURSE going to automatically think you're trans. It was your responsibility to tell us otherwise and give us the info we needed. IF you have everything in order to get a surgeon to actually take you (and I do not know what the requirements would be) AND all you need is funds - then I don't know what to tell you. There's no magical surgery fund out there. I don't even know of any charities that might be able to help you.
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| # ? Dec 25, 2011 04:07 |
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Serifina posted:Maybe if you'd come in here, and said, in plain English, that you were intersex and that you have everything but the funds needed for surgery? No. You came in here, and the way you worded things had, essentially every last one of us believing that you were trans with mental issues. In this case, who's fault do you think this is? Really? Also coming in with an attitude like "I need the same help that you guys need and face the same issues but I don't live the filthy tranny lifestyle and am thus not a filthy tranny like all of you" isn't making you any friends in here. We've had our fair share of people come through with interesting issues that would, in scholarly circles, provoke rigorous debate on the nature of the self. You'll have to excuse us for filing you with these types.
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| # ? Dec 25, 2011 04:29 |
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| # ? May 22, 2013 00:55 |
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Kaleidoscopic Gaze posted:Also coming in with an attitude like "I need the same help that you guys need and face the same issues but I don't live the filthy tranny lifestyle and am thus not a filthy tranny like all of you" isn't making you any friends in here. We've had our fair share of people come through with interesting issues that would, in scholarly circles, provoke rigorous debate on the nature of the self. You'll have to excuse us for filing you with these types. Whoa, hold up. I'm pretty drat sure that's not what MageMage is saying, and I'm really drat sure that a lot of trans people, regardless of whether they are also IS or not, have to go through a lot of bullshit because somebody else, NOT ourselves, that stamps the rubber stamp to say whether or not something is okay, or covered by insurance, or any other myriad of things that make it a matter of haves and have-nots. THAT is the "trans lifestyle" problem, when a (usually) hetero white cis doctor decides that somebody isn't trans enough because they're too poor, or too queer, or not normative enough to stand up to an outdated image of overcompensation. I know this because MageMage is not the first IS person I know who has been poo poo on by the professionals that specialize in the trans "community." teh winnar! fucked around with this message at Dec 25, 2011 around 05:12 |
| # ? Dec 25, 2011 05:08 |
























