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Strom Cuzewon posted:No, it's still a bloody plot hole. Coming up with a reason for contrived situations doesn't make them less contrived. I mean, there's no cause to get mad about coincidences in a book. Almost every single book, especially fiction, include tons of them.
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Dec 21, 2014 10:17
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wrong thread.
Zephyrine fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Dec 23, 2014 |
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Dec 23, 2014 17:08
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Strom Cuzewon posted:No, it's still a bloody plot hole. Coming up with a reason for contrived situations doesn't make them less contrived. But the entire battle at Tarwin's Gap is accepted to be a suicide mission in TEoTW. As I recall they've already sent anyone who isn't a soldier back from Fal Dara all ready. I mean, sure if the Tower wants to sacrifice an Aes Sedai in a meaningless stalling battle they can, but they'd rather not. I mean, the entire point with the tower is just how hosed up the blacks have managed to make it over a period of 3000 years. One of the things I don't understand is why they come out in favour of the Three Oaths and have Egwene do it too. I mean seriously, you know what the best way to make people not believe you is? To say "I will always tell you the truth" with no provocation.
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Dec 24, 2014 02:34
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Yorkshire Tea posted:I mean, the entire point with the tower is just how hosed up the blacks have managed to make it over a period of 3000 years. One of the things I don't understand is why they come out in favour of the Three Oaths and have Egwene do it too. If the AS are released from the Three Oaths then the Black Ajah are released from their own oaths, as well. This means that anyone who's having second thoughts can go and spill all of the Black Ajah's secrets.
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Dec 25, 2014 18:21
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The Black Ajah get rid of the Three Oaths and take others during their initiation. Not being bound by the Three Oaths while everyone around you (and to a lesser extent everyone else) think you are, is a huge advantage. It's mentioned several times that you can completely trust an Aes Sedai's word in the rare cases where she gives a straightforward answer, so there are still situations where the Black Ajah gets to fool people using the Three Oaths.
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Dec 25, 2014 18:59
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Sorry, I was hilariously unclear with the word "they." I meant that to imply Jordan and Sanderson. Fundamentally I think the oaths are a completely moronic idea at best. The excuse used to justify them is "They make us more than just a bunch of women meddling in people's affairs." Well they don't since the White Tower fundamentally is a bunch of women meddling in people's affairs.
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Dec 27, 2014 02:46
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Sorry, I was hilariously unclear with the word "they." I meant that to imply Jordan and Sanderson. Fundamentally I think the oaths are a completely moronic idea at best. The excuse used to justify them is "They make us more than just a bunch of women meddling in people's affairs." Well they don't since the White Tower fundamentally is a bunch of women meddling in people's affairs.
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Dec 27, 2014 03:10
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Nihilarian posted:The Aes Sedai see themselves as more than a bunch of women meddling in people's affairs, and the three oaths are tied into that perception. I think the idea is that abolishing the three oaths would never gain traction - it's too ingrained in them by this point - so instead they resolve to match their own perceptions of themselves. Well, Egwene and any of the Aes Sedai that realized the tower had lost it's way have, anyway. The problem is that they ignore the spirit of the oaths in favour of the wording. They don't mean anything when Aes Sedai lie all the time through omission.
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Dec 27, 2014 04:50
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Zephyrine posted:The problem is that they ignore the spirit of the oaths in favour of the wording. They don't mean anything when Aes Sedai lie all the time through omission.
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Dec 27, 2014 05:04
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It's especially silly with one Aes Sedai who are questioned where she came from. She says that she came "from the south" but she came from the north. Rode around the city and then came in through the south entrance. Hence "I came from the south" wasn't a lie But it does a good job of showing how watered down the oaths are.
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Dec 27, 2014 15:05
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Zephyrine posted:It's especially silly with one Aes Sedai who are questioned where she came from. I thought this was the most interesting thing about the Aes Sedai in the books, that being that the oaths were intended to paint a picture of the Aes Sedai as a non-threatening benevolent organization to the general population, then they spent much of their efforts trying to weasel around these oaths 
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Dec 27, 2014 22:33
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Sorry, I was hilariously unclear with the word "they." I meant that to imply Jordan and Sanderson. Fundamentally I think the oaths are a completely moronic idea at best. The excuse used to justify them is "They make us more than just a bunch of women meddling in people's affairs." Well they don't since the White Tower fundamentally is a bunch of women meddling in people's affairs. I think in the end Egwene's looking at a future a. pretty much cleansed of Darkfriends (the Black Ajah particularly so, the rest mostly by way of having shown their colors during the Last Battle) and b. in which the AS isn't the only channelling group around. To an extent the traditions and knowledge that the White Tower has are the only way it sets itself apart. Flexible as the Oaths were, anyone 'in the know' (aka, most of the big players) know drat well that they need to pin an AS down to a genuine answer. Not killing without life in danger/Darkfriend etc. seemed actually pretty iron hard and probably a good idea in a post-damene/Last Battle world where a lot of people have personally been on the pointy end of the Power. Going up and being like "unless you try to hurt me I won't harm you with the Power" is actually a pretty big deal.
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Dec 29, 2014 06:35
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the JJ posted:Not killing without life in danger/Darkfriend etc. seemed actually pretty iron hard That's not what it is, though. The form of the oath is that they can't use the One Power as a weapon, and that is a much different thing.
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Dec 29, 2014 10:09
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Khizan posted:That's not what it is, though. The form of the oath is that they can't use the One Power as a weapon, and that is a much different thing. Unless you wrap someone in air for giggles which apparently doesn't count.
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Dec 29, 2014 16:32
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Zephyrine posted:Unless you wrap someone in air for giggles which apparently doesn't count. Importantly though, I don't think they're allowed to stab you/purposefully allow you to be stabbed while you're wrapped up, though. They're not allowed to interpret the words of the Oath so disingenuously in their own minds. Even with the Oath against lying, I think they only get away with it because the phrasing is so narrow. If the Oath said simply "I will not lie," it would cover things like lies of omission, which virtually all people recognize as lies (when they're not being deliberately disingenuous).
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Dec 29, 2014 17:41
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Isn't word lawyering Oaths the loophole that Verin uses? I'm pretty sure Oaths work how the Oathtaker thinks they work. If you can convince yourself that weave X is not a weapon, then..
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Dec 29, 2014 22:31
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FrantzX posted:Isn't word lawyering Oaths the loophole that Verin uses? I'm pretty sure Oaths work how the Oathtaker thinks they work. If you can convince yourself that weave X is not a weapon, then.. Right, I agree exactly. But as far as I can tell, nobody has ever managed to convince themselves that tying someone up with Air in order to stab them does not count as a weapon. And that sounds about right: to me it's about as sensible as "Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people." Maybe if the novice curriculum were designed to brainwash people into believing this, but it isn't.
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Dec 30, 2014 00:16
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McNerd posted:Right, I agree exactly. But as far as I can tell, nobody has ever managed to convince themselves that tying someone up with Air in order to stab them does not count as a weapon. And that sounds about right: to me it's about as sensible as "Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people." Maybe if the novice curriculum were designed to brainwash people into believing this, but it isn't. I think the argument is that if they're using the power for discipline, training, etc., it's not using it "as a weapon." Just like Moiraine can make a knife with the power as long as she only uses it for cutting fish or whatever. They can paddle you silly with the power as long as they sincerely believe they're doing it for your own good.
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Dec 30, 2014 00:45
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FrantzX posted:Isn't word lawyering Oaths the loophole that Verin uses? I'm pretty sure Oaths work how the Oathtaker thinks they work. If you can convince yourself that weave X is not a weapon, then.. have you read the entire series? if you haven't got to the sanderson books yet don't click. as a member of the black ajah verin isn't bound by the three oaths, so she has no need of a loophole. She can just lie through her teeth.
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Dec 30, 2014 15:00
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The Lord Bude posted:have you read the entire series? if you haven't got to the sanderson books yet don't click. I have. The Black Oath I'm talking about is the one against betrayal. 'Not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death.'
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Dec 30, 2014 16:42
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The Lord Bude posted:have you read the entire series? if you haven't got to the sanderson books yet don't click. The point though is that the Blacks have their OWN oaths, which Verin did wriggle out of. In particular they were not permitted to reveal the secrets of the Black Ajah "until their last hour," which is literally when she revealed them. So I'd say she inarguably acted within the words of the Oath. And she may even have acted in their spirit. After all this loophole is so incredibly obvious that it might well be intentional, and I think even Verin suspects this.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:46
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I have put off re reading these for too long. I got half way into knife of dreams last time. However as I only seem to read at work or traveling I have bought the e-book, which is my fourth copy of teotw.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:03
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McNerd posted:Importantly though, I don't think they're allowed to stab you/purposefully allow you to be stabbed while you're wrapped up, though. They're not allowed to interpret the words of the Oath so disingenuously in their own minds. They can. This is precisely how Elaida and her cronies killed Siuan's warder. Andric his name was, I think. EDIT: Alric. ShadowCatboy fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Dec 30, 2014 |
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Dec 30, 2014 19:27
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ShadowCatboy posted:They can. This is precisely how Elaida and her cronies killed Siuan's warder. Andric his name was, I think. Elaida truly thought Suian was a darkfriend though, didn't she? Or at least convinced herself of it. It's been a while since I read them.
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Dec 30, 2014 21:16
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GreyPowerVan posted:Elaida truly thought Suian was a darkfriend though, didn't she? Or at least convinced herself of it. I believe Alviarin had a hand in convincing her of the unassailable logic in that. And after all, what would you call a conspiracy to run/guide a (False) Dragon male channeler as a member of the Red Ajah?
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Dec 31, 2014 01:44
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ruby idiot railed posted:And after all, what would you call a conspiracy to run/guide a (False) Dragon male channeler as a member of the Red Ajah? You'd call it an average Monday. Don't Logain and Taim say that the Reds approached them and insisted they become the dragon only to turn around and capture them once they are famous for prestige in the tower.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:00
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Daedalus Esquire posted:You'd call it an average Monday. Don't Logain and Taim say that the Reds approached them and insisted they become the dragon only to turn around and capture them once they are famous for prestige in the tower. Siuan Sanche crafted that lie after she was stilled--she told Logain to say that so that he could be revenged upon the Reds. Taim claimed that he escaped a bunch of Red handlers after his initial capture (though at that point it seems likely he was simply handed over to Demandred). There is not enough evidence whatsoever that Logain's claims were true, and enough conflicting POVs from the Reds indicates that none of the ones in power knew of it. There WAS originally a Black Red plot to hunt down all qualifying male channellers and gentle them on the spot around the time of New Spring (which Thom's nephew Owyn falls under, seemingly) but the ones who started that were punished by Ishamael for being too proactive and also risking the Black Ajah's cover. Also, insert a comma in my rhetorical question.
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Dec 31, 2014 07:41
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GreyPowerVan posted:Elaida truly thought Suian was a darkfriend though, didn't she? Or at least convinced herself of it. Quite the opposite, in fact. At no point did Elaida name Siuan Darkfriend, and in fact she would find the idea of doing so revolting because this would be admitting that the Black Ajah existed. The very idea of the Black Ajah's existence is not something that Elaida (and indeed the majority of other Aes Sedai) wants to entertain, much less make public. The primary charge against Siuan was in "arranging Mazrim Taim's escape" and for making hidden schemes, anything that could pin Siuan as incompetent or insidious. Any additional charges (such as Siuan's hand in letting the Dragon run free) were added only AFTER Siuan was formally deposed and she was put to the question. In truth, the initial case against Siuan seems to have been flimsy at best.
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Dec 31, 2014 08:46
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My major contention with the Oaths is the number. It should be obvious to anyone who gives it some thought that only the first one needs to be formally sworn on the Oath Rod.
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Jan 1, 2015 14:23
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I thought all three rules served a distinct purpose and were useful in the sense of getting people to trust that you are doing 'the right thing'.
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Jan 1, 2015 21:26
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I think he means that once they cannot tell a lie they couldn't swear the other two oaths if they didn't mean them, so they don't need to swear them on the Rod at all.
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Jan 1, 2015 21:41
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ShadowCatboy posted:They can. This is precisely how Elaida and her cronies killed Siuan's warder. Andric his name was, I think. There were a couple black ajah members in the group that killed him/captured Siuan, so it was most likely one of them that did the deed. (Danelle/Mesaana, or Alvarin)
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Jan 1, 2015 21:44
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Khizan posted:I think he means that once they cannot tell a lie they couldn't swear the other two oaths if they didn't mean them, so they don't need to swear them on the Rod at all. There are also a few examples of Aes Sedai breaking promises, even if they felt they would keep them when they made them. Shamelessly stealing from elsewhere, but: Moraine promises Nynaeve that she won't tell anyone Nynaeve can channel, but ends up telling Siuan; Saerin promises Elaida she won't tell anyone about her quest for the Black Ajah, but then goes and tells Pevara. Certainly they take their promises seriously and maybe breaking them was a mistake, maybe because they circumstances have changed, whatever, but what's important is that there was no magic stopping them.
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Jan 1, 2015 22:34
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Blind Melon posted:My major contention with the Oaths is the number. It should be obvious to anyone who gives it some thought that only the first one needs to be formally sworn on the Oath Rod. If you swore that you'd never use the Power as a weapon, fully intending to keep that oath, you haven't lied. And if, three minutes later, you changed your mind, well, you don't have to say a word to do it. Also I remember RJ or someone saying that the Three Oaths were a Black Ajah invention anyway, so of course they're stupid. And once it's started, I don't know of many people who wouldn't start rationalizing as hard as they loving can about the irrevocable promises they made as price of admittance to the club.
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Jan 2, 2015 05:39
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:If you swore that you'd never use the Power as a weapon, fully intending to keep that oath, you haven't lied. And if, three minutes later, you changed your mind, well, you don't have to say a word to do it. There's a difference between just saying 'I'm not going to use the power as a weapon' and making a formal pledge 'by the light etc etc I swear not to use the power as a weapon' The latter has an actual legal status like a modern courtroom, as far as it's been shown in the books an oath like that can't be broken by an Aes Sedai due to the oath against lying.
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Jan 2, 2015 06:05
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I thought there was one point where an Aes Sedai claimed that the First Oath binds them to keep all promises? Does anyone else remember such a thing or did I just hallucinate? I do remember thinking though that a) it didn't make sense given the Oath phrasing, and b) if this were true it would be extremely important and would come up all the time. (Although it would have been pretty cool: legend has it that you can bind a witch by tricking her into a promise, etc.)
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Jan 2, 2015 15:45
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:Also I remember RJ or someone saying that the Three Oaths were a Black Ajah invention anyway, so of course they're stupid. And once it's started, I don't know of many people who wouldn't start rationalizing as hard as they loving can about the irrevocable promises they made as price of admittance to the club. Wait where did you get this?
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Jan 3, 2015 02:34
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ShadowCatboy posted:Wait where did you get this? My brain, apparently. I just looked it up, it was a semi-popular theory that was answered MAFO, and it's since been M'd and we FO that the notes specifically say that isn't true. The Lord Bude posted:There's a difference between just saying 'I'm not going to use the power as a weapon' and making a formal pledge 'by the light etc etc I swear not to use the power as a weapon' The latter has an actual legal status like a modern courtroom, as far as it's been shown in the books an oath like that can't be broken by an Aes Sedai due to the oath against lying. I don't believe that ever once appears in the books. Are you thinking of Moiraine in LOC and TFH? Whether it was true or not, she'd certainly want Rand to believe it was. It's been shown that the wording is pretty strictly held to, and breaking a promise does not require speaking a word that isn't true. Unless the promise is not to lie I guess. Anyway besides, since we know that the Three Oaths didn't have a nefarious source, it's far more likely that the first isn't sufficient.
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Jan 3, 2015 06:20
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I'm at the end of the gathering storm. By far my favourite book so far. Just amazing. Mat's line "Burn that twinkle!" made me laugh out loud. Verin's conversation with Egwene brought tears to my eyes And the fight for the White tower was just *amazing* Edit: Oh and the way he killed Graendal Was just brilliant. Like literally using a nuclear weapon on the castle. No drawn out fight. no witty dialogue and twists as she reveals her grand plan but then gets thwarted in the last second. Just "Is she in there? Alright" then BOOM castle gone. It's so refreshing to see a protagonist use his power to the full. So many works of fiction involve heroes that have powers of just perplexing levels and then use them randomly. Sparking so many questions of why they didn't use them in particular scenarios. Zephyrine fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Jan 16, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 20:46
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The last three books are amazing. Sanderson did a great job wrapping everything up.
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Jan 16, 2015 21:14
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