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Eric the Mauve
May 8, 2012

Making you happy for a buck since 199X
I think in Egwene's case we're meant to understand that her Aiel training equipped her to deal with the Tower(s) politics in unexpectedly strong and shrewd ways, and also that nobody, not one person within the Tower or without, ever took her seriously until it was too late and she ruled everything. The rebels set her up as a puppet that could conveniently take the fall when they ended the rebellion, and then after capturing her the Tower, by which I mean Mesaana, (also assuming she was just a puppet, I mean the girl is like 18 for the Creator's sake) figured breaking her would be easy work of maybe a week.

Also we rightly complain about Elayne being in luuuuuurve with some dude she's spent a grand total of maybe a week with, but at least Rand is a Protagonist. Egwene's bizarre infatuation with Elayne's spectacularly dimwitted brother, the George Costanza of Randland who can be absolutely relied upon to do exactly the wrong thing every single time he makes a decision, is a hundred times worse. It makes no loving sense at any point ever. Not even in a "teenage hormones, dude" way.

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RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain

Eric the Mauve posted:

I think in Egwene's case we're meant to understand that her Aiel training equipped her to deal with the Tower(s) politics in unexpectedly strong and shrewd ways, and also that nobody, not one person within the Tower or without, ever took her seriously until it was too late and she ruled everything. The rebels set her up as a puppet that could conveniently take the fall when they ended the rebellion, and then after capturing her the Tower, by which I mean Mesaana, (also assuming she was just a puppet, I mean the girl is like 18 for the Creator's sake) figured breaking her would be easy work of maybe a week.

Also we rightly complain about Elayne being in luuuuuurve with some dude she's spent a grand total of maybe a week with, but at least Rand is a Protagonist. Egwene's bizarre infatuation with Elayne's spectacularly dimwitted brother, the George Costanza of Randland who can be absolutely relied upon to do exactly the wrong thing every single time he makes a decision, is a hundred times worse. It makes no loving sense at any point ever. Not even in a "teenage hormones, dude" way.

But one time he drempt of her and they had sex probably

JawKnee
Mar 24, 2007





You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line
I don't actually care to defend Gawyn and Egwene's relationship (or any of them really) but they may have spent quite a lot more time together that we didn't get to see in the period in book 2 where Egwene/Elayne/Nynaeve were actually in the Tower for an extended period of time

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
I like Galad because he has an honest to god arc. He does a really good heel to face turn, every action his decisions are internally consistent, and he has a code of ethics that he never bends or breaks. I like that he's basically the only character in the series who doesn't force his ideology on the decision, but makes decisions because of his ideology.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice
There's quite a few factors to be considered:

1) It's post apocalyptic dark ages, ain't nobody got time to wait to even their late teens to have a serious relationship (except channeling women). Rand and Egwene were as good as betrothed and likely less than a year from being married at the beginning of TEoTW, and my sense is that was only because Egwene was slightly younger and Two Rivers folk are slightly more prudish. I don't recall timelines but my impression was Tigraine married Taringail very young, bore Galad, ran off to the waste, married Janduin, bore Rand, and was probably 20 at best at that point. Granted, Taringail was 100% straight up a political marriage.
2) channeling women already tend to have some really loving weird familial relationships--at the very base level, they live for at least 200 years, or more. A Warder may live a long rear end time due to good health, the Bond, and access to Healing, but the tower is full of women who have outlived their husbands (if they even had husbands, instead of green-style Warders) and even outlived their own grandchildren.
3) Rands a channeling man. This is known to Elayne by the time she's in the tower. Barring cleansing the source, which is not even a remote possibility in anyone's mind at this point, he's got maybe 1 good year and 1 not so good one. Gotta hurry.

Shits hosed up, yo.

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain

JawKnee posted:

I don't actually care to defend Gawyn and Egwene's relationship (or any of them really) but they may have spent quite a lot more time together that we didn't get to see in the period in book 2 where Egwene/Elayne/Nynaeve were actually in the Tower for an extended period of time

Matt and Tuon is pretty good imo. So is Nynaeve/Lan. Even Perrin/Faile, and I hate Faile. Egwene and Elayne felt forced because they're main characters that had to have a romance.

subpage
May 27, 2003

Alea iacta est
Elayne's story is consistent with her character imo. She's a nice person, but at her core she's a noble raised to be the next Queen. Sharks be acting like sharks yo, she's not any different than half the Kings and nobles we see in the other Kingdoms.

Somebody like Rand would be like a dream come true to a 16 year old princess. He's handsome, rich, powerful, the Nobelist of noble blood, and on top of that seems to be a nice guy who treats her well. For somebody that probably assumed she'd be marrying some ugly toad from the other noble houses he might as well be prince charming and the baddest of bad boys rolled into one.

Rand has less of a consistent inner reason for falling so madly in love with her, but it's not unbelievable, and even he resists it to an extent. She's a pretty young princess, that all but throws herself at him, but keeps enough back to not offend his own somewhat shy personality. I don't think he really believes anything will happen with her until the four way mind-loving. By then he's much more comfortable with who he has to be, and how that makes him exempt from a lot of social and personal beliefs. Also a little crazy, trying very hard to find good things his life.

Egwene and the prince of nothing is a little harder to swallow, but maybe because she was one of the least consistent characters from the main crew.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all

subpage posted:

Elayne's story is consistent with her character imo. She's a nice person, but at her core she's a noble raised to be the next Queen. Sharks be acting like sharks yo, she's not any different than half the Kings and nobles we see in the other Kingdoms.

The only problem with this is that every other king, queen, or noble gets humbled, thoroughly embarrassed, or outright murdered. Faile, a character most people seem to dislike for her lovely attitude and manipulativeness, does in fairness spend months as a slave and has to seriously consider selling her body for protection. Morgase, her own mother, has a pretty lovely run of things. The Tairen nobles had to get in line or get hanged. Even Tuon, who actually stands up to Rand, is still the last remaining living member of her House because everyone else in the Imperial Family gets brutally murdered, must live as a peasant in hiding for months, is in real constant danger of being murdered, and eventually has to make an alliance with a man she has very mixed feelings about because he's the most logical path back to her throne.

Nothing bad ever happens to Elayne. She thinks her mom is dead, but no she's just absconded and is eventually reunited with her daughter. She loses a single brother, but it's in the Last Battle and he was always the brother whose job it was to die, like it was literally his job description. You could make an argument that she's selling her body to Rand for protection, but it's "~true love~" and Elayne makes a point of keeping Rand's identity a secret so that people don't realize she has the Dragon's protection and she can secure a throne or two on her own.

People die around her all the time and she's like, "Eh, whatever, pieces on the board, my babies will be fine." It's infuriating and she never learns a goddamn lesson.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

Atlas Hugged posted:

The only problem with this is that every other king, queen, or noble gets humbled, thoroughly embarrassed, or outright murdered. Faile, a character most people seem to dislike for her lovely attitude and manipulativeness, does in fairness spend months as a slave and has to seriously consider selling her body for protection. Morgase, her own mother, has a pretty lovely run of things. The Tairen nobles had to get in line or get hanged. Even Tuon, who actually stands up to Rand, is still the last remaining living member of her House because everyone else in the Imperial Family gets brutally murdered, must live as a peasant in hiding for months, is in real constant danger of being murdered, and eventually has to make an alliance with a man she has very mixed feelings about because he's the most logical path back to her throne.

Nothing bad ever happens to Elayne. She thinks her mom is dead, but no she's just absconded and is eventually reunited with her daughter. She loses a single brother, but it's in the Last Battle and he was always the brother whose job it was to die, like it was literally his job description. You could make an argument that she's selling her body to Rand for protection, but it's "~true love~" and Elayne makes a point of keeping Rand's identity a secret so that people don't realize she has the Dragon's protection and she can secure a throne or two on her own.

People die around her all the time and she's like, "Eh, whatever, pieces on the board, my babies will be fine." It's infuriating and she never learns a goddamn lesson.

In this instance I don't know why Tuon gets credit for living life with Mat on the run for a couple months and Elayne, for example, doesn't get credit for going out and about doing things (and occasionally bumbling) but having to live a life on the lam hiding from rioters, Whitecloaks, and the Forsaken from books 4 through 7.

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain

broken clock opsec posted:

In this instance I don't know why Tuon gets credit for living life with Mat on the run for a couple months and Elayne, for example, doesn't get credit for going out and about doing things (and occasionally bumbling) but having to live a life on the lam hiding from rioters, Whitecloaks, and the Forsaken from books 4 through 7.

Tuon is alone with the enemy. Elayne is with Nynaeve, Thom, Jullian, Bayle, and many others helping her out.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

RC Cola posted:

Tuon is alone with the enemy. Elayne is with Nynaeve, Thom, Jullian, Bayle, and many others helping her out.

Tuon had her secret bodyguard and a few others in the entourage who would probably die for her. And she is also hardly defenseless herself. She also more or less knows though hasn't 100% confirmed that she will marry Mat.

Alone with the "enemy" is also some kind of hilarious exaggeration considering at that point it was literally the only safe place for her to be.

Next.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Feb 7, 2016

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain

broken clock opsec posted:

Tuon had her secret bodyguard and a few others in the entourage who would probably die for her. And she is also hardly defenseless herself. She also more or less knows though hasn't 100% confirmed that she will marry Mat.

Alone with the "enemy" is also some kind of hilarious exaggeration considering at that point it was literally the only safe place for her to be.

Next.

Elayne is one of the strongest one power users in the world and only has to fear her own stupidity for the most part

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
She was also kidnapped and dumped into the situation as opposed to constantly thinking herself the best and only one capable of accomplishing a mission she chose to go on.

Plus, and this is key, Tuon learns and grows as a person as opposed to reaffirming in her own head that she is indeed the best.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE
Aug 1, 2004

whoa, what just happened here?







College Slice

Atlas Hugged posted:

She was also kidnapped and dumped into the situation as opposed to constantly thinking herself the best and only one capable of accomplishing a mission she chose to go on.

Plus, and this is key, Tuon learns and grows as a person as opposed to reaffirming in her own head that she is indeed the best.

The gently caress? Tuon might just be the one named character with the least personal growth in the entire series. Seriously, her entire arc is coming to trust Mat.

like holy gently caress that's the entire point of Seanchan is that they think they're the best, and Tuon having fought her way to the top of the succession chain makes her the best of the best.

VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Feb 7, 2016

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
Yes, thank you for making my point. Tuon has barely any development, which is still more than Elayne.

Tuon: I'm the best to I'm the best, but I'm going to need to trust and rely on others.

Elayne: I'm the best to I'm the best.

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain

Atlas Hugged posted:

Elayne: I'm the best to I'm the best.
It also never gets old having Elayne and Egwene always thinking how Rand isn't really a King and they can't believe people take him seriously as most of the world bows to him

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE
Also being convinced that Rand used compulsion on Aes Sedai. Best of all, Egwene thinking that using compulsion on Aes Sedai is extra bad. Who cares about normal people?

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain

Torrannor posted:

Also being convinced that Rand used compulsion on Aes Sedai. Best of all, Egwene thinking that using compulsion on Aes Sedai is extra bad. Who cares about normal people?

Double standards are such a huge part of Aes Sedai life. Egwene's whole Matt and Rand are so incompetent and stupid and only I know what is good attitude is annoying. Yes you came from a small village and are now the big dog. What makes you think the freaking Dragon Reborn and another person from that village can have character growth over two years. Forgetting that Matt and Rand saved them at Falme, and Matt did again at Tear and for Elayne again at Ebou Dar.
It's just infuriating.

Blind Melon
Jan 3, 2006
I like fire, you can have some too.

subpage posted:

Rand has less of a consistent inner reason for falling so madly in love with her, but it's not unbelievable, and even he resists it to an extent.

Rand spent the last month or two wandering the widerness alone, insane, and hunted both in his waking hours and in his dreams. Suddenly he is king of a place he has barely even heard of and a hot blonde wants his nuts. Was nobody here 18?

JawKnee
Mar 24, 2007





You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

Blind Melon posted:

Rand spent the last month or two wandering the widerness alone, insane, and hunted both in his waking hours and in his dreams. Suddenly he is king of a place he has barely even heard of and a hot blonde wants his nuts. Was nobody here 18?

sure, but apparently none of us were 16 year old girls as far as empathy goes

Pash
Sep 10, 2009

The First of the Adorable Dead
Elayne totally went through hardship.... She had to work in a circus for a little bit... :)

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
Where she learned to be a tightrope walker without even using the power because she is the goddamn best.

Yes, it actually makes sense that if she did it enough times she'd start to learn to do it on her own, but again she's on a critical mission and she's loving around on the wire without any precautions because whatever she's just that good.

dentist toy box
Oct 9, 2012

There's a haint in the foothills of NC; the haint of the #3 chevy. The rich have formed a holy alliance to exorcise it but they'll never fucking catch him.


Pash posted:

Elayne totally went through hardship.... She had to work in a circus for a little bit... :)

100 percent forgot that happened.

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
Just finished 8 and am rereading 9 now. It's a chore. It's not even enjoyable. gently caress Elayne and Perrin forever.

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
Also how stupid is Elayne to make that Bargain with the Sea Folk. Heh we'll give you 20 Aes Sedai as slaves and this bowl that you want more than anything. Please change the weather so every person on the planet including you doesn't die.

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
Also also the 13x13 turning is some bad bullshit writing that always pissed me off. Why didn't the many black ajah in the tower slowly convert every Aes Sedai over time? They have hundreds of years and apparently there is plenty of places to hide in the basement to do it.

E: Mila Kunis would be a good Min

RC Cola fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Feb 11, 2016

Old Kentucky Shark
May 25, 2012

If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.


Possibly Chicken posted:

100 percent forgot that happened.

I just hit that section of book 5, and I'd forgotten how loving loooong the Circus chapter is.

And how much of the Elayne/Nynaeve chapters are devoted to descriptions and theorizing about women's dresses.

RC Cola posted:

Also also the 13x13 turning is some bad bullshit writing that always pissed me off. Why didn't the many black ajah in the tower slowly convert every Aes Sedai over time? They have hundreds of years and apparently there is plenty of places to hide in the basement to do it.
That one is pretty well explained by the later books; individuals turned by the 13 trick come across as creepy and off-putting even to other dark friends, and seem to be limited in terms of creativity and initiative; there's something palpably "not right" about them, sort of like Grey Men. You could never use it to infiltrate very far into the White Tower without people noticing.

Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Feb 11, 2016

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





RC Cola posted:

Also also the 13x13 turning is some bad bullshit writing that always pissed me off. Why didn't the many black ajah in the tower slowly convert every Aes Sedai over time? They have hundreds of years and apparently there is plenty of places to hide in the basement to do it.

E: Mila Kunis would be a good Min

because the black ajah structure was built around infiltrating a very competent aes sedai organisation, the whole 'heart' thing is actually a brilliant infiltration tactic. it's just that it pretty much was completely unnecessary and seriously nerfed the effectiveness of the blacks

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?


Hair Elf

Two Finger posted:

because the black ajah structure was built around infiltrating a very competent aes sedai organisation, the whole 'heart' thing is actually a brilliant infiltration tactic. it's just that it pretty much was completely unnecessary and seriously nerfed the effectiveness of the blacks

It seems like it would have been useful back when there were active hunts for black ajah, but they did such a great job of making everyone want to forget that they existed that it became more of a hinderance

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers





Which was pretty much a theme with the bad guys really. Heads so far up their own asses they didn't really look at reality. Can almost imagine a sensible black saying ummmm is this really necessary and getting slapped down by an ocd head of the black

ShadowCatboy
Jan 22, 2006

by FactsAreUseless

RC Cola posted:

Also also the 13x13 turning is some bad bullshit writing that always pissed me off. Why didn't the many black ajah in the tower slowly convert every Aes Sedai over time? They have hundreds of years and apparently there is plenty of places to hide in the basement to do it.

E: Mila Kunis would be a good Min

Aes Sedai and Warders can sense Myrddraal. If any halfmen entered the Tower they'd immediately be detected. I'd also expect wards would have been set to prevent Myrddraal from entering the more secluded areas. While it might be possible for a 13x13 turning to occur outside of the White Tower, the logistics of organizing so much halfman/womanpower is a bit prohibitive unless you knew where to find a couple isolated Aes Sedai.

RC Cola
Aug 1, 2011

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain

ShadowCatboy posted:

Aes Sedai and Warders can sense Myrddraal. If any halfmen entered the Tower they'd immediately be detected. I'd also expect wards would have been set to prevent Myrddraal from entering the more secluded areas. While it might be possible for a 13x13 turning to occur outside of the White Tower, the logistics of organizing so much halfman/womanpower is a bit prohibitive unless you knew where to find a couple isolated Aes Sedai.

It seems like something they could work around over 3000 years

OAquinas
Jan 27, 2008

Biden has sat immobile on the Iron Throne of America. He is the Master of Malarkey by the will of the gods, and master of a million votes by the might of his inexhaustible calamari.

RC Cola posted:

It seems like something they could work around over 3000 years

It was probably not a major priority. Ishy was the one calling the shots over the Black every 40 years or so. He knew that as long as the seals were unbroken, it was better to have a thoroughly infiltrated Tower that was still seen as a central authority on the continent, than one that was outright serving the DO (and thereby summarily assaulted and destroyed by the rest of humanity). Turned channelers are apparently cartoon evil, so the secret would have gotten out eventually. Plus same-sex Turning is much more difficult, from what we saw with Logain.

Even without Turning, it seems they had a full third of Full Sister tower membership. That's crazy.

Blind Melon
Jan 3, 2006
I like fire, you can have some too.

ShadowCatboy posted:

Aes Sedai and Warders can sense Myrddraal. If any halfmen entered the Tower they'd immediately be detected. I'd also expect wards would have been set to prevent Myrddraal from entering the more secluded areas. While it might be possible for a 13x13 turning to occur outside of the White Tower, the logistics of organizing so much halfman/womanpower is a bit prohibitive unless you knew where to find a couple isolated Aes Sedai.

There are ways around that. There was a Grey Man in the Tower, remember.

Scintilla
Aug 24, 2010

I BEAT HIGHFORT
and all I got was this
jackass monkey
The sensing Darkspawn thing is probably one of the early bookisms that got phased out once the initial trilogy expanded since I don't recall it happening in the latter half of the series. There are a lot of Darkspawn ambushes that would've been foiled otherwise.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

Scintilla posted:

The sensing Darkspawn thing is probably one of the early bookisms that got phased out once the initial trilogy expanded since I don't recall it happening in the latter half of the series. There are a lot of Darkspawn ambushes that would've been foiled otherwise.

In book 11, both Rand and Cadsuane can sense the trolloc army shortly before they attack the manor they stay in (where Logain visits and Loial is finally found by his mother).

Dunbar
Feb 21, 2003

I'm in the middle of my re-read now and I'm pretty sure that in Book 2 there is a Trolloc attack that no one sensed and they say it was because someone Warded the Trolloc.

rchandra
Apr 30, 2013


The Draghkar that attacked Moiraine/Vandene/Adeleas, yeah. In general the sensing hasn't given all that much warning - see the big Trolloc attack at the start of The Dragon Reborn.

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?


Hair Elf
I have a friend who is going through the series for the first time and generally discuss after he finishes each book. He has managed to through Crossroad of Twilight (and New Spring) and is finally about to start on Knife of Dreams. It was really funny because I honestly couldn't remember what happened in CoT, and he could barely remember anything interesting despite having just finished it. Looking at wikipedia, man, nothing loving happens in it outside of Egwene getting captured.

Also looking at the entry for KoD, man, that is a good loving book. I wish some of the action could have been spread into the previous few, would have made them way better

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ShadowCatboy
Jan 22, 2006

by FactsAreUseless

Scintilla posted:

The sensing Darkspawn thing is probably one of the early bookisms that got phased out once the initial trilogy expanded since I don't recall it happening in the latter half of the series. There are a lot of Darkspawn ambushes that would've been foiled otherwise.

Don't think Grey Men can be sensed... undetectability is their whole schtick after all. They also weren't the kind of Darkspawn crafted by Aginor (possibly with help from the True Power), they were just men (and the rare woman) who sold their souls to the Dark One for power.

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