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Paperhouse posted:not really true, one of Carrick's best qualities is his ability to read the play and intercept the ball. pretty sure he's one of the best in the league for that He's great doing it every now and then to stop a counter attack but when United's midfield are getting properly flooded he disappears more often than not.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 22:12 |
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| # ? May 20, 2013 02:06 |
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Pissflops posted:It baffles me why anybody who isn't English would spare even a moment considering the make-up of the England side. My own national side is so poo poo that I've adopted England as my second team back in 1998. I have chosen... poorly.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 22:17 |
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I'm with euroboy and some others that it doesn't matter who's in charge, the current crop of English players are too focused on their own skills and will fail because they can't work together as a team, those that do are also the more poo poo players in the EMNT. I don't think Redknapp is going to be able to calm down Rooney or a guy like Morrison (not that he'll end up in the team). Which is why I say that England will not top their 2014 qualification group.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 22:19 |
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Gonna stick by the England team needs to have a full squad of hard working poo poo cloggers + scott parker and wayne rooney.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 22:28 |
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Psybro posted:He's great doing it every now and then to stop a counter attack but when United's midfield are getting properly flooded he disappears more often than not.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 22:30 |
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xXlpffrtlXx posted:I don't think Redknapp is going to be able to calm down Rooney or a guy like Morrison (not that he'll end up in the team) If Redknapp can convince Rooney to stay away from the whores, the booze and the transfer requests he's done more than enough to ensure that he's on top form
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 22:32 |
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Paperhouse posted:A well managed team can beat a team that is "better" than them though. Happens all the time in all tournaments Can't get blood out of a stone
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 22:48 |
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tekz posted:Can't get blood out of a stone But you can get Greece to win a major tournament.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 23:14 |
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vyelkin posted:But you can get Greece to win a major tournament. Yeah let's give the flukiest of flukes as an example to why a good manager matters.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 23:19 |
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I'm pretty sure the English press and many fans wouldn't tolerate the kind of ultra-organized and low-scoring, defensive style that teams like Greece utilized to achieve results. When you're talking about a "well-managed" team beating better teams, that's usually the result of the kind of grinding that doesn't win a manager a lot of support until a team gets pretty drat far into a tournament.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 23:20 |
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Psybro posted:You could've taken it that I was talking about his England form in isolation I think people are right in wanting to move on from the old guard and give a new generation a chance but there's nothing to suggest it's going to be any different. It doesn't matter if it's Capello or Redknapp managing, the current crop of English players simply don't offer enough as a unit. There's too many players with similar roles and qualities that don't really stand out as much when playing along side each other. I'm sure that they can improve with some good man management but I'd be surprised to see them playing consistently well in a tournament any time soon. I wouldn't be surprised if the current squad didn't particularly enjoy international duty anymore and it's hard to blame them. The undeserved expectation from the media and the fact that there's very little in the way of game changing individual brilliance in the squad means that there's very little to be optimistic about. The last time I remember enjoying England in a major tournament was Euro 2004 when Rooney was running the show and even he doesn't seem to have the fire in his belly anymore. It was covered extensively after we failed to qualify for Euro 2008 but the current youth setup in this country just doesn't produce enough individual quality that can be nurtured to the highest level. There's a reason why Spain have done so well over the past few years and that's because they're having to bench players who would walk into most club teams.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 23:27 |
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TyChan posted:I'm pretty sure the English press and many fans wouldn't tolerate the kind of ultra-organized and low-scoring, defensive style that teams like Greece utilized to achieve results. When you're talking about a "well-managed" team beating better teams, that's usually the result of the kind of grinding that doesn't win a manager a lot of support until a team gets pretty drat far into a tournament. Sean O'Driscoll had donny beating 'better teams' with tiki taka champagne football regularly. What I'm saying is Sean O'Driscoll for England.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 23:33 |
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8raz posted:the current youth setup in this country just doesn't produce enough individual quality that can be nurtured to the highest level. There's a reason why Spain have done so well over the past few years and that's because they're having to bench players who would walk into most club teams. Seriously, this is a big thing. How many legitimately world-class players do England have currently? Then compare that to how many the actual contenders for tournaments have, like Spain or Germany. For Spain it's nearly every position, for Germany it's nearly every position. For England it's ... who? Hart, Gerrard and Rooney? I don't think Terry or Ferdinand count anymore, Cashley has been going downhill fast, and who's left then? There are some players who may turn out to be world class like Wilshere or Jones, but who knows whether they actually will or not.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 23:36 |
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You can easily make out a squad with current players much superior to what Capello put out for WC2010 (Gerrard on the left in 442, Lampard and Barry in a midfield 2, Carragher and Upson with significant minutes at CB, Heskey as striker, Rob Green/David James as keeper, Shaun Wright-Phillips playing.) Just one example code:
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 23:37 |
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Guys I hate to interrupt but Alan Big Owl Shearer has waddled into the room and is refracting pure logic off the polished dome of the front of his head http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16969777
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 23:52 |
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Botany As Optimism posted:Guys I hate to interrupt but Alan Big Owl Shearer has waddled into the room and is refracting pure logic off the polished dome of the front of his head quote:"The England manager should be English, the Scotland manager should be Scottish, and likewise with Wales, Ireland and everyone else. All those players, many of whom he may have never managed. He'll know them inside out because they were born in the same country as him.
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| # ? Feb 9, 2012 23:58 |
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xXlpffrtlXx posted:Yeah let's give the flukiest of flukes as an example to why a good manager matters. But zonal marking driveled for thousands of words why they were a team masterminded by a TACTICAL GENIUS
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 00:00 |
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Hiddink's work with South Korea in 2002 was pretty key to their success, but that's a different kettle of fish than managing England.
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 00:04 |
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Crazy Ted posted:All those players, many of whom he may have never managed. He'll know them inside out because they were born in the same country as him. Sort of like how in football manager Ryan Giggs has a great scouting knowledge of Siera Leon because his dad was from there.
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 00:06 |
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Thinking now, there's too much focus on "old generation" versus "new generation", and that skips over players like Lescott, Milner or Jagielka. I'm looking at it as needing a transition rather than a complete overhaul. If you focus on the individual elements then the problems and solutions vary: Forwards/Wingers: No longer have to rely on Heskey or Wright-Phillips, thank God. After Beny and Rooney, Welbeck and Sturridge are probably ready for regular interational duty, back-ups include Carroll, Agbonlahor and maybe Defoe. Lennon's better than he was in 2010, so is Milner, so is Young. Dont' see a big problem in attack, these players are better than the options from the WC. GK: Hart's nailed-on for the long-term, think we're all agreed there. Back-ups can be whoever, Stockdale I guess. MF: Here's where the biggest debate is, I think. Big jump between the old and new, so it's either keep the 30+ year olds or replace then with 20-year olds. Wilshere is the only "new kid" that's good enough yet, so it's still Gerrard-Barry-Parker-Lampard for another year or so. DF: Doesn't need a shift to new generation, needs a shift to mid-generation. God only knows why Upson played in the WC. Transition from Terry-Rio-Cole to Lescott, Baines, Jagielka, Glen Johnson, maybe Dawson. Throwing Smalling, Richards and Jones in as the new starters would be crazy I think. I don't think things get magically so much better in defence, but it stops the decline. I think the pool of English players is noteably better than it was then, blaming it all on Capello's squad selection is pretty harsh. The WC just fell at an unfortunate time when the old players were declining but the new ones hadn't reached the level to replace them yet. It's been two years, we're more on the cusp of that now I think. [edit]are people for non-national managers around here then? I think the physios, the coaches, even the kitman should be English. It's one country competing against another in a sports game, and the people involved go a lot further than the players on the pitch. Should be representing their own country irregardless of whether being from there helps the team or not. Hoops fucked around with this message at Feb 10, 2012 around 00:25 |
| # ? Feb 10, 2012 00:21 |
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Howards Bellend posted:Sort of like how in football manager Ryan Giggs has a great scouting knowledge of Siera Leon because his dad was from there. 
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 00:42 |
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Barry Glendenning made a good point, how useful is Harry's bonhomie and team spirit if he hasn't got his backroom staff with him filling in the holes and actually training the team to play well together?
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 02:13 |
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Why would he not have his backroom staff?
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 02:52 |
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xXlpffrtlXx posted:I'm with euroboy and some others that it doesn't matter who's in charge, the current crop of English players are too focused on their own skills and will fail because they can't work together as a team, those that do are also the more poo poo players in the EMNT. I don't think Redknapp is going to be able to calm down Rooney or a guy like Morrison (not that he'll end up in the team). You don't mean this. You two are just jealous because your lovely national teams didn't qualify
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 06:05 |
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saw this on redcafe ----------------Amos-------------------- Jones----Smalling---Ferdinand-----Fryers ----------Carrick------Scholes---------- ----------------Cleverley--------------- -----Welbeck-----Rooney----Young-------- all United england line up, Let's Do This
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 06:18 |
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sebzilla posted:Why would he not have his backroom staff? Well presumably Spurs wouldn't want to lose all their coaches as well as their manager. Likewise, if I was a coach at Spurs, I would probably want to keep my job there over taking one on the team voted Most Likely To Sack All Its Gaffers in high school.
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 06:27 |
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Paperhouse posted:saw this on redcafe That's almost as bad as the all-youth lineup posted earlier. Do people really rate Ferdinand-Smalling that much that they actually hope Terry won't play? Ferdinand has been poo poo this year and Smalling merely decent, and that midfield would be the worse in the whole tournament. I think I underestimated Capello's workload managing a country where people actually come up with these sort of lineups, although I do remember the public deification of Joe Cole...
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 07:17 |
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Mean Bean Machine posted:That's almost as bad as the all-youth lineup posted earlier. Do people really rate Ferdinand-Smalling that much that they actually hope Terry won't play? Ferdinand has been poo poo this year and Smalling merely decent, and that midfield would be the worse in the whole tournament. I think I underestimated Capello's workload managing a country where people actually come up with these sort of lineups, although I do remember the public deification of Joe Cole... It's supposed to be a Bad Post, but people, even those making serious posts in this very thread, overrate their own players quite a bit (shocker!) when it comes to making 'optimal' sides.
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 07:20 |
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It's redcafe, I'm sure they were completely serious when coming up with that lineup.
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 07:24 |
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Mean Bean Machine posted:It's redcafe, I'm sure they were completely serious when coming up with that lineup. It's supposed to be a bad post to enlightened denizens of these forums, that's why it was reposted I assume.
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 07:42 |
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Mean Bean Machine posted:It's redcafe, I'm sure they were completely serious when coming up with that lineup. Were you completely serious when you said a midfield featuring Carrick and Scholes would be the worst at the tournament?
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 07:56 |
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Breath Ray posted:You don't mean this. You two are just jealous because your lovely national teams didn't qualify I'd currently rate Montenegro as more likely to top that group.
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 09:07 |
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Eric Cantona posted:Were you completely serious when you said a midfield featuring Carrick and Scholes would be the worst at the tournament? Seriously, of all the things in that lineup to criticize...
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 09:12 |
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Breath Ray posted:You don't mean this. You two are just jealous because your lovely national teams didn't qualify Please don't troll. Norway are better than England, we will prove that in May. Tony Pulis and Byolante will get a tear in his eye when he sees the norwegian cloggers hoof them to victory.
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 09:19 |
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euroboy posted:Please don't troll. Calm down euroboy leave some of them for us.
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 09:26 |
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Why does anyone anywhere want Terry to play?
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 09:34 |
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Jose posted:Why does anyone anywhere want Terry to play? To sell more tabloids?
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 09:47 |
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Because I still rate him.
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 09:49 |
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The Mash posted:So if they'd beaten Ghana in the first knock-out round it would've been a succesful World Cup? Successful is difficult but if they'd made it to the 2nd knock out round and then gone out to one of those first 5 I bet people who have seen it very differently. quote:Why does anyone anywhere want Terry to play? Because it means he can't sleep with anyone for at least 90 minutes.
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 09:51 |
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| # ? May 20, 2013 02:06 |
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He's not sleeping with Our Cheryl like Cole so I don't care
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| # ? Feb 10, 2012 09:52 |
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