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Re: my post in the other thread, Shawcross is a good call actually. He's a better choice to replace Terry than most of the others, but he's going to be kind of stuck. He's not going to the Euros without a senior cap to his name, and he missed his chance to get a cap before the Ramsey incident because Terry avoided getting injured (whereas Cahill was in good form at a time when Ferdinand was out which gave him a chance). If Terry retires from international football then I think Shawcross will get his chance afterwards and hopefully be established by the 2014 qualifiers.
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| # ¿ Feb 5, 2012 12:19 |
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| # ¿ May 25, 2013 19:41 |
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I dunno if Henderson will make it, he hasn't been a regular with England to offset his terrible club form. Downing and Walcott are established enough at this point that they'll go regardless.
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| # ¿ Feb 5, 2012 12:27 |
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I think Gerrard is probably still worth taking. I'd want Lampard on towards the end of a game in the knockout stages but I don't think that's worth bringing him for. Terry obviously needs to be gone, and Ferdinand is going to get shown up if he plays, his pace has gone and he's trying to cover it up. At least Johnson and Cole are used to covering for slow centre backs I guess. Barry should be in the squad but as said he's too similar to Parker and not quite as good. I think Parker and Carrick as the base should be the first choice, with either Gerrard or Milner in front of them.
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| # ¿ Feb 5, 2012 12:55 |
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Eau de MacGowan posted:Wouldn't mind seeing Phil Jones turn out in defensive midfield, honestly. Bearing in mind that Rooney is gone for the first couple of matches, this is probably England's most rounded line-up imo: There's no point playing Jones in midfield if Parker is already there. You need someone with good distribution to bring the wingers into play. And you can't overlook Carrick for that this season. I'd rather have Lennon right wing than Milner as well, as good as he is I don't think he has much impact on the wing. With Bent up front you need to be more direct since his linkup play is poor, so better to have two direct wingers on to put crosses in for him.
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| # ¿ Feb 5, 2012 13:33 |
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Hart is quality but I don't know how well the other players look up to him at this point. I think Parker is the better choice for the tournament, and then look at giving it to Hart afterwards.
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| # ¿ Feb 7, 2012 00:58 |
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I'd love to see Scholes get the chance but I think it would be a mistake. He can't play a bunch of games in a short space of time and his preference for being the deepest midfielder clashes with Parker (who should be the captain in my opinion). Wasting Scholes when he was in his prime was criminal but taking him to the Euros now would probably make it worse. Meanwhile Carrick is there in fantastic form playing the same role and getting almost completely ignored.
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| # ¿ Feb 13, 2012 22:14 |
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I don't have too much of an issue with Campbell because he's young and half decent and he deserves a chance. I think I'd prefer to see Carroll there though, not because I particularly rate him but someone like Campbell is just going to be an unused sub if he even gets to the Euros. It's always handy to have a target man around as a plan B so we might as well give Carroll some time for that. Amazed at Cleverley over Carrick, sure Pearce knows him well but as we saw last night he's nowhere near fit and we have no idea if he'll keep his pre-injury form.
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| # ¿ Feb 24, 2012 09:39 |
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It's only £5 to watch the U21s instead. 
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| # ¿ Feb 27, 2012 15:03 |
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willkill4food posted:But Pearce and then Redknapp are not going to play that way, so Shawcross should stay at home. On the other hand Shawcross has more experience playing in Europe than Gary Cahill so surely he should be ahead of him in the squad? You're talking poo poo anyway, if Shawcross was only capable of defending from the edge of the 18 yard box and further back then why would Ferguson regularly talk about it being a mistake to let him leave United? If every manager took your logic to its conclusion nobody would ever buy a player from a smaller club because surely they can't be good enough for a big team or they would playing for one!
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| # ¿ Feb 28, 2012 17:41 |
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willkill4food posted:I am sure that if Shawcross were to move to a club that didn't play like Stoke he could adjust. It might take a little while but he would get it. The issue is that it would take longer than the couple weeks that England have to train prior to Euro 2012. That is why he should stay at home. England aren't going to play like Man Utd either, should we send all the United players home?
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| # ¿ Feb 28, 2012 17:59 |
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willkill4food posted:Pretending that all players with CB or MF next to their name are the same is how England ended up with Gerrard and Lampard paired in midfield. Haha yes, you make sweeping generalisations about players based on the colour of shirt they wear on a Saturday, but it's me who doesn't understand that all players are individually different. Nice one.
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| # ¿ Feb 28, 2012 18:17 |
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I think it's going a bit far to say that taking a centre back who isn't renowned for his distribution is accepting mediocre status. Puyol isn't a great passer either, would you leave him out? If Vidic was German would he be not good enough? Brazil don't really have one and they seem OK (Lucio and Luiz can dribble well for sure but they're not so great at passing, and Thiago Silva certainly isn't). Sure it's nice to have, but if it's so vital then just take Ferdinand and be done with it. The ability of the England squad doesn't match their reputation but that applies to more than just the passing ability of our centre backs. We're still looking to the likes of Walcott, Bent and Johnson to make a significant contribution where others have Pedro, Benzema or Lahm. We rely on Rooney almost as much as Portugal rely on Ronaldo, we have 1 goalkeeper worth his salt, most of the players hate each other and the best manager we've had in a long time left despite being the highest paid in the world over a squabble about taking the captaincy off a racist stinkyhole who is despised by everyone else in the squad. I don't see how Shawcross can possibly make that worse, the worst it would do is upset Walcott as Ramsey's teammate and that would be worth it alone.
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| # ¿ Feb 28, 2012 20:37 |
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Any professional footballer at decent international standard in pretty much any position is capable of playing a 20 yard pass to feet along the ground to a midfielder in space. That is nowhere near enough to be considered a 'ball-playing centre back' to the extent that you transform the entire team around you and if it is good enough then Shawcross is definitely nothing to worry about. If Thiago Silva was good enough to meet that standard then Milan wouldn't have looked a completely different side with him at the base of the diamond instead of Pirlo. But they did, they were completely disjointed. "Not a modern, ball-playing centre back" does not mean "occasionally fucks up a square pass to the other centre back".Hoops posted:I don't think any of this is very fair. If you cherry pick players from every other country, then yes our players look weak in comparison, but that's only because England doesn't have one of the best in their world at their position, in every position on the field. It's really only Spain and possibly Holland that are close to that. An Italian or whatever poster could just as easily say "others have Rooney and Ashley Cole". The same Italy that have Cassano and Criscito? That's my point - you could say Italy are a bit weak at left back because Criscito and Balzaretti aren't amazing. But Criscito is way closer to Ashley Cole than Walcott is to Pedro. Looking down on Portugal in particular is seriously shortsighted - they're only really weak at right back, holding midfield and striker - 3 positions, just like I picked out for England. We really need to stop considering ourselves above Portugal and it's not because our centre backs can't pass.
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| # ¿ Feb 28, 2012 22:23 |
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Hoops posted:It was you that was looking down on Portugal though? That's what I was responding to. Either they're only weak at 3 positions or they're overly reliant on Ronaldo, you've just completely flipped your position. I'm not really explaining it very well, but as far as Portugal go both teams have a few clear weaknesses and are overly reliant on one particular player. I'd put Spain, Germany, the Netherlands definitely ahead of us, plus France and Italy if you discount their recent dips (and they are dips compared to England's performance over time). That leaves Portugal, and it's not been mentioned so much here but I think it's a common English sentiment that we're obviously better than them. So we're 6th or 7th in that list at best, only 8 go through to the knockout stages and there's the two hosts to account for. That brings me back (finally!) to the point I was contesting: quote:Shawcross is a solid defender but to include a player of his caliber in an England side is admitting that getting out of the groups is the ultimate aim for the side. so I took forever to point it out but hopefully it's clear that I'm trying to say getting out of the group stages is absolutely something we're going to have to work for and shouldn't take for granted. We will definitely be overperforming if we get to the semis.
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| # ¿ Feb 28, 2012 23:11 |
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It doesn't always work as well as you might think. Most full backs are used to receiving the ball without any pressure on them, because they're either sat deep to receive it or they've made an overlapping run into space. It can be quite unsettling to then play with an opposing full back always closing them down as they pick the ball up, and then being up against a proper full back instead of against the opposing winger tracking them, who will naturally not be as good defensively. I'm not saying it can't work but I think we're past the point where we have time to experiment with it and find out. If he'd been played on the wing for Liverpool occasionally it would be different. Otherwise it would be a fairly desperate measure, if we need to shore up the right flank I think it would be better to just put Milner there.
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| # ¿ Mar 1, 2012 23:25 |
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He's done enough to earn a place but he still won't get picked, and if he does he won't play. Then he'll be signed by a bigger team in the summer and suddenly become a regular international.
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| # ¿ Apr 7, 2012 18:17 |
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| # ¿ May 25, 2013 19:41 |
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There's no issue with Lampard's ability, just the fact that Lampard and Gerrard together in a 4-4-2 is a terrible setup. The fact that this pairing shoved Scholes to the wing is criminal, but it's not really Lampard's fault.
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| # ¿ Apr 17, 2012 21:07 |
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