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Reik posted:They gave us ranking officers for a reason, it's so we could turn merc units into faction units. Cygnar has the bonus that it can use more mercenaries than any other faction. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. It's a gap filler, not a gift horse. Everyone else got the same treatment, except they get to add poo poo like Defenders Ward onto their merc units now.
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Feb 14, 2012 05:36
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Tanon posted:Which is awesome and all, but I think it's absolute horseshit that you have to get entire Merc units to be competitive. Solos? Sure, throw in 2-6 points of Merc models. But having to take 1/3 or more of your total point cost in Merc models to field a competitive force? That's loving bullshit. The joke I heard is that playing Cygnar is basically playing mercs with different casters and jacks  S.J. posted:I already have somewhere in the vicinity of 50+ points of random Skorne stuff, and almost a full 35 point Xerxes brick Oh I wasn't saying anything on that front. Something I've noticed though is that Cygnar's playstyle demands that you soften up big scary stuff with your overall quality shooting. Why not switch to cheap ok damage stuff like Storm Guard or Steelheads ( I know I know mercs but they are cheap and hit decently ) that can follow up those few Defender shots. Side note I'm thinking more and more that Stormblades are a trap. They are just too damned expensive; for how hard they are to keep alive.
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Feb 14, 2012 05:38
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I R SMART LIKE ROCK posted:The joke I heard is that playing Cygnar is basically playing mercs with different casters and jacks You are almost 100% right about stormblades. They work in certain lists as a counter charge unit, but only if you take the minimum, preferably if you're already taking a Stormclad. Their UA is almost never worth it, and it tricks you into thinking you ought to get the Stormgunners (who are literally worthless without the UA). Storm Guard are okay, I'd probably like them more if we at least bad Blur on more casters. I don't know why someone like Sloan doesn't have that, but w/e. Although Storm Guard are anything but cheap, they're 9 points for a full unit. They're a decent unit as-is, but with a good UA that has a tactic and either granted ability or mini feat, they could be pretty legit even at 11 points. And that joke is pretty accurate Problem is I didn't realize it until I had been playing Cygnar for a while, and now I need to go buy like 2-3 different full merc units because they're loving characters so I need more than one available for SR events.  . I just haven't been able to convince myself to since I've been kind of strapped for cash and needed other things. That being said, does anyone have any experience with Devil Dogs in Mk 2?
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Feb 14, 2012 05:44
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 Stormblades only come in "minimum" units. The only way to increase the number in a unit is with the UA and Gunners.I haven't run them myself, but the Devil Dogs are apparently the future of Cygnaran warfare. They got overshadowed very quickly in MkI, even though they were the very first WM unit to have any special abilities that affected both 'jacks and beasts at the time. I picked up a unit because they looked cool and I liked their backstory (their merc charter reads, in its entirety, "Grigor V. Dorenski, 464 AR. Khador beware"), but never got around to fielding them because I had to put tabletop strategy games on hold for a while. In MkII, and as the reason I mention Cygnar, they get Assault and Dig In if you put them under Murdoch's command. They're not bad on their own, though certainly not a bread-and-butter unit. Being able to charge from a +4 ARM dug-in foxhole, though, means enough of them will live long enough to blow ragged holes in a 'jack or beast or two with their slug guns, net a survivor, and wreck it with pickaxes once it's down. Even though the attack stats are a bit worse, their P+S and ranged POW are better than Trenchers, which makes charging a more useful idea. No other faction makes the Devil Dogs shine quite as well as Cygnar. "Cygnar: Now Hiring" was the way someone on the Privateer Press forums put it. Yeah, Cygnaran lists generally work the best with mercs, and mercs can often outshine Long Gunners or Trenchers or Stormblades or such, so it makes sense to take the mercs instead... But I'm not playing a Merc army with Cygnaran units. If I wanted to do that, I'd run a Highborn Covenant or Magnus's Agenda list. I'm playing Cygnar. It shouldn't be too much to ask that their units are worth enough to actually use, not just look cool on my shelf. It almost seems like they designed the Cygnaran units first and based the other factions' unit stats and abilities around how to counter them, or what would make their faction competitive against the Cygnaran version (read: why you should buy Exemplars, and play Protectorate, instead of Cygnar). I haven't seen anyone unequivocally favor a Cygnaran unit over its counterpart in any other faction, with the sole exception of the Retribution riflemen coming off worse than Long Gunners. Personally, I don't see that, since Ret riflemen move faster, have better armor, are slightly better in melee (+1 to each relevant stat) and have the same range, while Long Gunners have Dual Shot and the Ret riflemen don't, but v:vv I don't make 'em up. I also have no idea why the Retribution riflemen UA has the 'War Tempered' ability (CRA into melee, if still with -4), since the Retribution hasn't mounted an expeditionary force in centuries, while Cygnar has been in one war after another on several different fronts for about thirty years. No sir, I don't like it <  >
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Feb 14, 2012 06:55
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Don't be pedantic, if there's only one option then it's neither a minimum or a maximum, and you knew what I was talking about either way But I'm gonna sit here and < > with you about it while I paint my Cryx and assemble my Skorne and wait for my Storm Strider to get here
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Feb 14, 2012 07:00
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To be fair, this is all Cygnar's fault anyway. Mark 1 Cygnar infantry were criminally cheap for what they did. You reap what your long gunners and half-priced Trenchers sow. That being said, when Mark 3 rolls around, Winter Guard and Kayazy Assassins will become more expensive than a unit of Man o Wars, have stats on-par with Cygnar Field Mechanics and their UA's will trade Bob and Weave and Duelist for something...great like Assault and Battery. Then Assault Kommandos will somehow end up as kings of Khador infantry!
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Feb 14, 2012 07:06
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Chicken Slayer posted:To be fair, this is all Cygnar's fault anyway. Mark 1 Cygnar infantry were criminally cheap for what they did. You reap what your long gunners and half-priced Trenchers sow. That's a terrible way to look at things (I'm assuming you're joking), and I didn't even start playing this game until Mk 2 came out. Literally gently caress everyone who thinks that previous editions should have anything to do with current ones. e: Assault Kommandos and Trenchers should both be changed to 6/4 units so that we can have battles between those units, because they are awesome looking and thematic as gently caress Also PP please give me a Trencher Warcaster in Colossals tia
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Feb 14, 2012 07:07
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More or less. To be honest, the real killer was the change in how infantry were costed. In Mk1, Heavy Jacks started (like, Iron Clads and Juggernaughts) at 100+ points and were more expensive than a full unit of Infantry (90 or so). Now that they changed the ratio around, some units have been recosted and made unattractive. Some haven't: Winter Guard are still cheaper than warjacks and have a similar costing to their Mk1 counterparts, but Man o Wars have gone from costing the same price as a Juggernaught (Shocktroopers) or Berserker (Demo Corps) to costing the same as a Destroyer. Cygnar got the worse end of the stick, with Trenchers and Long Gunners pretty much doubling in price.
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Feb 14, 2012 07:12
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S.J. posted:Also PP please give me a Trencher Warcaster in Colossals tia Trolls got him, and we'd gladly give him back! Edit: Ok, Gunnbjorn isn't that bad ... I just don't want to have to buy an entire second army worth of faction models to field a 100% ranged force. dexefiend fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Feb 14, 2012 |
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Feb 14, 2012 07:18
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dexefiend posted:Trolls got him, and we'd gladly give him back! Just because he has snipe doesn't make him a ranged caster  In fact aside from his battlegroup I wouldn't run any ranged units with him, especially with his wicked-rear end feat. DEF 16 Fennblades or Troll Champions against shooting that can't be knocked down? And no blast damage? loving yes please! And that doesn't even get into the fact that Rock Wall can give you some hilarious game against other melee dudes. Upkeep snipe on a bomber, cast guided fire with bomber + impaler who far strikes himself + your choice of storm troll, slag troll (my fav) or pyre troll, and clear out your opponents infantry for those delicious troll units. S.J. fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Feb 14, 2012 |
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Feb 14, 2012 07:27
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Gunnbjorn's problem is, I think, that he has to compete with the other troll casters in a faction which has readily available access to Snipe and Rock Walls. When you've got Gunnbjorn competing with P Grissel, Jarl and E Madrak, it's pretty hard. That being said, I don't play trolls and whilst a member of my group does and likes the guy, I've never played one of his Gunnbjorn lists. How does he actually fair.
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Feb 14, 2012 07:32
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S.J. posted:Just because he has snipe doesn't make him a ranged caster You really think so? I have never played him, nor seen him played, nor read about a game where he was played. I just was looking at his spell list. I will have to ponder him some more. I really like his model.
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Feb 14, 2012 07:32
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Basically Gunnbjorn wants you to have a Bomber and Impaler for ranged attacks. Then you can boost RAT for everything at range while your Fenns and rockwalls siphon the enemy into the shitstorm. If you want ranged fighters Nyss hunters are pretty good with him, but I'd be more tempted to stick with a close fighting force supported by Gunnbjorn and ranged beasts.
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Feb 14, 2012 07:33
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Tanon posted:Because the Jr. has Battlegroup Commander instead of Jack Marshal. If he gets killed (which happens easily) the jack you put on him goes inert instead of autonomous. So, if you have a Hunter on him, you lose 9 points of models for killing one 14/14 solo with 5 boxes. I guess. I don't play Cygnar so I haven't had the chance to try them (although I own one for some reason?) I feel like it's not that hard to keep a backline solo alive for a couple turns, I rarely ever lose my support solos before the game is gone anyway. Even Sam (who people hate and is generally frontline) tends to last a couple turns. Worst case scenario, doesn't Cygnar have a ton of Marshal UAs that could pick up the jack? I dunno, I just can't help but think how awesome it would be to have a Jr to put a Mule or Mariner on.
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Feb 14, 2012 15:30
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I ordered my War Wagon last night! I am so excited!!!! 5" AOE Knockdown Cannon here I come! I am really looking forward to having Grim Angus popping his feat, casting Marked for death, and shooting pDenny with the net gun. Then I will activate the War Wagon and drop a bomb on her.  It is ridiculous how little plastics mans get me all in a tizzy!
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Feb 14, 2012 15:50
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I've always found that Journeymen are pretty hard to kill, especially with a Hunter. Mostly because they are so very far away from the fighting, sitting at the far edge of the Hunter's control zone. That 12 inch control range they get when controlling a Hunter means they can lurk in the far back field of any fight, give the Hunter the 2 focus it needs and still upkeep Arcane Shield. Considering that the Hunter is already a backfield piece anyway, most of the time the Journeyman camps the Cygnar deployment zone. Throw in some Cygnar control and/or shooting elements and you generally can't get stuff up to kill the bastard. It's usually easier to kill the Hunter than bother with the Journeyman. Granted, if you have him with any other Warjack he's kind of a walking corpse, but Cygnar already have this whole Journeyman thing worked out to a fine art, it'd be a shame to change it.
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Feb 14, 2012 16:00
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Ashcans posted:I guess. I don't play Cygnar so I haven't had the chance to try them (although I own one for some reason?) I feel like it's not that hard to keep a backline solo alive for a couple turns, I rarely ever lose my support solos before the game is gone anyway. Even Sam (who people hate and is generally frontline) tends to last a couple turns. Worst case scenario, doesn't Cygnar have a ton of Marshal UAs that could pick up the jack? People have an unnatural hatred for Jr. Every game I've used him people go out of the way to take him down. I use it to my advantage, but I'd still probably never drop a jack on him. Don't get me wrong, he's good. But its not worth moving a jack on him. Also, to whomever said something about having to use Mercs as Cygnar as a gift horse, no. I want to play lightning knights and doughboys, not Fantasy Empire Miners or Pikemen.
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Feb 14, 2012 16:05
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Chicken Slayer posted:I've always found that Journeymen are pretty hard to kill, especially with a Hunter. Mostly because they are so very far away from the fighting, sitting at the far edge of the Hunter's control zone. That 12 inch control range they get when controlling a Hunter means they can lurk in the far back field of any fight, give the Hunter the 2 focus it needs and still upkeep Arcane Shield. Considering that the Hunter is already a backfield piece anyway, most of the time the Journeyman camps the Cygnar deployment zone. That's my experience with the Journeyman. He's sitting in a forest with LOS blocked while feeding the Hunter. I never manage to get the solo and have to wreck the Hunter the hard way. E: I really don't get the Cygnar+Merc hate. They use Mercs to such great degree that I would just consider that a faction pro. Cygnar is a little over costed, but the units have good functionality, then you pick up a cheapy Merc to fill another slot. I thought that was Cygnar's flavor when I started playing: Expensive badasses who use disposable Mercenaries for fodder. Raiche fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Feb 14, 2012 |
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Feb 14, 2012 16:07
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I fully support the Cygnar/Merc overlap because it means when I eventually jump ship for a real faction, I will still be using half of the Mercs that I love!
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Feb 14, 2012 16:18
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Out of curiosity, is there a Cav based caster/list for any of the factions? I kinda want to play some dudes on horses.
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Feb 14, 2012 16:25
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dexefiend posted:I ordered my War Wagon last night! I am so excited!!!! Trolls have gotten me into a frenzy as well, it's just so much fun jumping into a new faction! Anyway, I was gonna get a war wagon as well, and try to do a pgrissel ghetto pop & drop list with her, the WW, runeshapers and a chronicler. Not sure if that's ever viable, but it sounds like fun. crime fighting hog posted:Out of curiosity, is there a Cav based caster/list for any of the factions? I kinda want to play some dudes on horses. I'm sounding like a broken record here, but troll Long Riders + Horthol can wreck some poo poo. Using them with pgrissel right now for fun extra movement/ attack shenanigans. Willeh fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Feb 14, 2012 |
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Feb 14, 2012 16:31
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crime fighting hog posted:Out of curiosity, is there a Cav based caster/list for any of the factions? I kinda want to play some dudes on horses.  Captain Jeremiah Kraye. One of the best-looking models in all of Warmahordes, and he looks pretty fun to play on top of that. Last year's Gen Con hardcore winner ran him, iirc. Dude turns warjacks into cavalry, fukken ownage.
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Feb 14, 2012 16:35
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S.J. posted:That's a terrible way to look at things (I'm assuming you're joking), and I didn't even start playing this game until Mk 2 came out. Literally gently caress everyone who thinks that previous editions should have anything to do with current ones. Some of the things that were garbage in mk1 are incredible now (winterguard, pMorghoul, a lot of jacks) and the ones that were bananas are junk/overpriced now (eMorghoul, karax, trenchers, longgunners, rhinodon, Darius,etc) Its probably not a complete coincidence, typically when games get a rebalance, broken poo poo gets overnerfed.
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Feb 14, 2012 16:36
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Fyrbrand posted:
I think it was the year before, but yeah Kraye owns. Also, some of the new epic epic casters that are coming out in the Colossals book supposedly are riding horses. Theyve confirmed Vyros, Kreoss, and Vlad are all on horses so far
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Feb 14, 2012 16:37
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PaintVagrant posted:I think it was the year before, but yeah Kraye owns. Also, some of the new epic epic casters that are coming out in the Colossals book supposedly are riding horses. That is my favorite model in the game. If I had seen him starting out, I would play Cygnar. I still have to resist picking that faction up... a friend gave me his battlebox, and I needed Gun Mages/Precursors for Llael. It wouldn't be so bad!
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Feb 14, 2012 16:39
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Hey IRSMART, post us a cool report of your tourney experiences at Crucible, tia
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Feb 14, 2012 16:45
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What's up Warwagon order buddy! As for the Skorne talk, be careful with Cetrati, I bought them early on and found they just don't make many lists anymore. I run Xerxis but found the gatormen and nihilators better infantry options with him. Zaal is my Favorite Skorne caster by far, as every model on the table is a threat and the fits it gives your opponent when they can't ignore that beasthandler (he could hit def 16 average and be doing pow+4d6 on a charge + feat and its ridiculous hitting def 19 fairly regularly) are just glorious. Last standing a Bronzeback and popping feat + trainwreck and just 4 dicing every attack and damage roll is beyond hilarious. And of course the late game, Zaal last stands himself and charges in for an epic facebeating all-or-nothing has won me a few games where things went poorly early on.
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Feb 14, 2012 16:47
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PaintVagrant posted:I think it was the year before, but yeah Kraye owns. Also, some of the new epic epic casters that are coming out in the Colossals book supposedly are riding horses. Colossals is going to destroy my wallet.
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Feb 14, 2012 16:55
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Zaal is probably the most fun skorne caster. I rarely feel stressed out when I play him because I know all those early casualties Im taking are just feeding the beast. I dont own the models to run it properly, but Zaal can run a huge infantry swarm ala pSkaare and have similar results on his feat turn and with last stand. But skorne doesnt have a bunch of speed 7 or incorporeal dudes, sadly. Or mechthralls. Or 4 point jacks with arcane assassin and grievous wounds 
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Feb 14, 2012 16:58
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Errr, mentioning Kraye and Colossals in the same post made me think: would he make the cygnar colossal count as cavalry as well? Because poo poo.
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Feb 14, 2012 17:00
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Willeh posted:Errr, mentioning Kraye and Colossals in the same post made me think: would he make the cygnar colossal count as cavalry as well? Because poo poo. This goes straight to the heart of the internet debate currently raging, whether or not Colossals are actually warjacks, in game terms. My assumption is they are not, because they would be too easily affected by stupid poo poo like disruption, etc. I think its been confirmed that they have immovable object (tiberions rule) which basically means no places, pushes, slams, knockdowns, or movement outside of its normal movement). NO admonition, beatback, pursuit, etc.
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Feb 14, 2012 17:02
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PaintVagrant posted:This goes straight to the heart of the internet debate currently raging, whether or not Colossals are actually warjacks, in game terms. That's a good point, I haven't really followed the debates on the internet yet. Hell, even dropping enliven on it and giving it a choir boost seems overly powerful, if only for how many attacks it will probably have, giving it a flat +2 +2 would probably break the whole drat thing.
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Feb 14, 2012 17:08
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If they have immovable object, enliven wouldnt work either. But yeah, choir bonus seems sort of crazy on a 20 pt super model
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Feb 14, 2012 17:10
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Playing Zaal is like playing Cryx or Legion, with the amount of conniption fits he gives opponents. "I thought those Immortals already went this turn? You mean they get to hit my jack for POW 13+3d6 again?!" "I'm wailing on your 4-point solo with a heavy jack and 3 heavy infantry, how is he not destroyed yet?!" "What do you mean an Incorporeal POW 14 solo with Reach, Thresher, and 3 souls just 'appears'?!" "What? He's back again?!" "I though my caster was safe, why is he now engaged with a loving Whirlwind of Death?!" "How the hell does your warlock shoot mine through a goddamn MOUNTAIN?!"
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Feb 14, 2012 17:19
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No one is really sure what they will work like, because the language in the video was pretty vague. So they will work 'like' a warjack, but no one knwos if they will actually be warjacks and benefit from warjack effects. I am pretty sure they said that they will be 'part of a battlegroup' though, which sure makes it seem like they'll benefit at least from battlegroup feats/effects. People are basically going to be frothing at the mouth until the book leaks/arrives.
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Feb 14, 2012 17:20
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Willeh posted:Trolls have gotten me into a frenzy as well, it's just so much fun jumping into a new faction! Don't forget Jarl Skuld when it comes to Long Riders. The combination of Quicken, Weald Secrets, Tactical Supremacy, and his feat make for good synergy. Using his feat, you can charge over your own bases if needed. Also, High in the Saddle lets them target models over intervening models.
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Feb 14, 2012 17:24
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PaintVagrant posted:Some of the things that were garbage in mk1 are incredible now (winterguard, pMorghoul, a lot of jacks) and the ones that were bananas are junk/overpriced now (eMorghoul, karax, trenchers, longgunners, rhinodon, Darius,etc) Oh I'm aware of the fact that they want to bring everything in line, but these things ought to be reevaluated within the context of the new system, not in comparison to whether or not they were too good in the context of the previous system. There are obviously a number of things that they went too far on, and I don't even mean just with Cygnar. Everyone unfortunately has their own trencher unit that they avoid
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Feb 14, 2012 17:34
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Oh man, I've been having to resist the urge to start yet another army. Not bored mind you, I'm running out of plastic/pewter mans to put together. Stupid job forcing me to quit and become an unemployed college student. I'd really like to start a small Menoth Army. 
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Feb 14, 2012 17:36
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crime fighting hog posted:Colossals is going to destroy my wallet. I have two warmachine faction and I'll be at L&L again this year where they'll most likely be debuting. Bye bye $400 
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Feb 14, 2012 17:51
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So I'm thinking of picking up a Menoth starter box on a whim because it looks loving awesome, is this a good idea? I have no idea where to start with this game but it sounds awesome.
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Feb 14, 2012 18:02
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