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bartolimu
Nov 25, 2002


SubG posted:

I mean I don't know if this specific action by the FDA is alarmist or not. But that line of argument is bunk. As a general matter I think there's a case to be made that bacteriological contamination of food is very much the kind of thing that we want the FDA (and related regulatory authorities) to monitor if we don't go full net.libertarian and argue that all such regulations should be eliminated.
The problem with this is where does policing of benign bacteria stop? Non-toxigenic bacteria appear in lots of places that have nothing to do with contamination by fecal matter. Lambic ales go through a stage early in their production where enteric bacteria (including E. coli) are present, despite being pumped boiling hot into their fermentation vessels and left untouched by human hands. The enteric bacteria are present in the environment, and their presence in the beer is benign. I'm not familiar enough with their concentrations to know if they'd run afoul of this new ratcheting down of tolerances, but what if they do? Are they banned from import and "destroyed" by Customs as well?

Basically it seems to me that there are too many other possible sources of non-toxigenic E. coli for it to be a reliable predictor of sanitation practices at the point of manufacture. Is it a good predictor of contamination by other, more dangerous microbes? I'd be interested to see a controlled study that did, especially one that indicates the new, drastically lower standard is significantly safer.

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SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.

bartolimu posted:

Basically it seems to me that there are too many other possible sources of non-toxigenic E. coli for it to be a reliable predictor of sanitation practices at the point of manufacture. Is it a good predictor of contamination by other, more dangerous microbes? I'd be interested to see a controlled study that did, especially one that indicates the new, drastically lower standard is significantly safer.
Yeah. Like I said, I don't have enough information to evaluate whether or not this particular action makes sense or is just alarmist. But I don't find it outrageous or whatever that they're concerned about the general class of problem. And I'm also kinda thinking of the flash in the pan thing about the FDA and wooden boards which as I recall also originated in the cheesemaker blogosphere and turned out to be nothing.

Plus_Infinity
Apr 12, 2011

So my neighbor ladies agreed to $18/meal/person (cut down to $15 if they give me produce from our CSA to mess around with), and they'll pick up so I don't have to deal with delivery/timing on that. I'm very excited! Now I just need to make sure I stay inspired so this stays fun and doesn't turn into a horrible chore.

I'm going to splurge on some cookbooks and kitchen gadgets this afternoon. Yay!

dino.
Mar 28, 2010

Yip Yip, bitch.
This is the second time I have ordered this popcorm from Amazon and my wife and I really love it. As you may know, corn in general is LOADED with pesticides.
In addition, Monsanto is destroying the world with their GMO products which makes their corn resistant to the pesticide (also made by Monsanto) called Round-up. So once their corn is planted, it can be drenched in Round-up to kill the weeds and the corn still grows. I don't want to be consuming Round-up when I eat.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R6KFZ3XPHFMR/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0036Z3ULM

Oh my god, shut up about anything not to do with the goddamn product jesus christ.

I recently learned about GMOs- genetically modified organisms, which is a technical way of saying food with added genes from bacteria or a virus or who knows what! And corn, from my research, is almost 95% guaranteed to be GMO unless you buy certified organic. Even then, it's possible for crops to become contaminated which is scary!

I have been using Arrowhead Mills products since the late 1980s (and did not know until now that they were purchased by Hain) but this product was new to me. I was pleasantly surprised at how much better it is than the standard fare.

http://www.amazon.com/review/RS6RPXSX1QQQN/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B0036Z3ULM

Seriously. Is there any way to get these people to shut their faceholes about the loving GMO bogeyman?

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.
🔬🍒


dino. posted:

Seriously. Is there any way to get these people to shut their faceholes about the loving GMO bogeyman?

I managed to get halfway through your post before I realised you were quoting, and hadn't become a gibbering idiot. I was sincerely concerned that coming off the sauce had made your brain break.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...
I went to my doctor's office not too long ago because I had an ear infection (I have 2 kids and allergies so I get one every year like clockwork) and my regular doctor couldn't see me so I let one of the other docs in the office handle it and he lectured me about GMO corn possibly causing my allergies.

(He also chided me about my weight even though I've lost 70 lbs (which would be obvious from looking at my chart for 2 seconds) and am working on more and suggested I fast because it worked for him when he fasted with his church so I figure he's just a lovely doctor but still...)

Mr. Wiggles
Dec 1, 2003

We are all drinking from the highball glass of ideology.
That would require people to understand science, which as you know, is not the American way.

What really upsets me though is that all the lunacy about frankenfood and what have you gets in the way of having meaningful public debate about intellectual property, equal distribution of wealth, monoculture, and all the other important issues that come along with Roundup Ready corn and BT Tomatoes.

Squashy Nipples
Aug 18, 2007

The woman is on the warpath about the FoodBabe, I get at least one angry lecture a day about what a disgusting fraud she is.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


dino. posted:

This is the second time I have ordered this popcorm from Amazon and my wife and I really love it. As you may know, corn in ... :words: ...


Though I bought some organic hippie dippie popcorn from a hippie store a couple weeks ago and that poo poo has the highest pop %age of any popcorn I've ever purchased in my life. Our scorn can't explain that.

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.
🔬🍒


Mr. Wiggles posted:

What really upsets me though is that all the lunacy about frankenfood and what have you gets in the way of having meaningful public debate about intellectual property, equal distribution of wealth, monoculture, and all the other important issues that come along with Roundup Ready corn and BT Tomatoes.

I completely agree with you. There are genuine issues surrounding the ethics of GM food, but inserting genes from one organism into another is not actually a problem at all.

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.

Scientastic posted:

I completely agree with you. There are genuine issues surrounding the ethics of GM food, but inserting genes from one organism into another is not actually a problem at all.
Well, I don't think that claim is well supported. You can argue that e.g. inserting the Bt gene into maize is not a problem---we have a lot of data on that---but that doesn't imply that inserting any or arbitrary genes into any organism that doesn't already have that gene is equally safe.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

CommonShore posted:

Though I bought some organic hippie dippie popcorn from a hippie store a couple weeks ago and that poo poo has the highest pop %age of any popcorn I've ever purchased in my life. Our scorn can't explain that.

I used to eat popcorn with my ex all the time. It started out as just buying a bag from the local theater, then we started buying bags of kettle corn and microwaving it, then as she got crazier she started air popping and doing garlic and nutritional yeast, and ended up doing coconut oil with brown rice syrup and cinnamon...
:smith:

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


Bob Morales posted:

I used to eat popcorn with my ex all the time. It started out as just buying a bag from the local theater, then we started buying bags of kettle corn and microwaving it, then as she got crazier she started air popping and doing garlic and nutritional yeast, and ended up doing coconut oil with brown rice syrup and cinnamon...
:smith:

I'm doing peanut oil + coconut oil + salt in a pot on the stove. Coincidentally I learned this from my own ex, who had worked in a movie theatre.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

The packs we used to buy for our popper at work had a pack of kernels+salt and then a little block of coconut oil :)

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.
Coconut oil is good, but you really need to be using Flavacol instead of salt for the full theatre popcorn schtick.

Marta Velasquez
Mar 9, 2013

Good thing I was feeling suicidal this morning...
Fallen Rib

SubG posted:

Well, I don't think that claim is well supported. You can argue that e.g. inserting the Bt gene into maize is not a problem---we have a lot of data on that---but that doesn't imply that inserting any or arbitrary genes into any organism that doesn't already have that gene is equally safe.

I heard that you can shove frog DNA into blood inside of mosquitoes preserved in sap. Let's start with that. I have a feeling it'll make something tasty.

Steve Yun
Aug 7, 2003
I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.
Soiled Meat

contrapants posted:

I heard that you can shove frog DNA into blood inside of mosquitoes preserved in sap. Let's start with that. I have a feeling it'll make something tasty.

I think this might be the key to understanding what Hello Kitty is.

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.
🔬🍒


SubG posted:

Well, I don't think that claim is well supported. You can argue that e.g. inserting the Bt gene into maize is not a problem---we have a lot of data on that---but that doesn't imply that inserting any or arbitrary genes into any organism that doesn't already have that gene is equally safe.

I was using a little bit of hyperbole, but for genetically modified organisms to leave the laboratory environment to be propagated on a larger scale, the safety protocols and testing procedures are incredibly rigorous, such that I would argue that any GMO that is commercially available is 100% guaranteed to be safe.

Even sending genetically modified cells from one genetics laboratory to another takes a loving stupid amount of paperwork, so getting government approval to supply GM crops to farmers with your particular GOI inserted is going to require screeds of safety data.

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.

Scientastic posted:

I was using a little bit of hyperbole, but for genetically modified organisms to leave the laboratory environment to be propagated on a larger scale, the safety protocols and testing procedures are incredibly rigorous, such that I would argue that any GMO that is commercially available is 100% guaranteed to be safe.
Nah. Nothing's guaranteed to be 100% safe. It's not even on the table. And it really needn't be---meaningfully what you want to evaluate is whether or not the risk is measurably greater than the alternative.

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.
🔬🍒


SubG posted:

Nah. Nothing's guaranteed to be 100% safe. It's not even on the table. And it really needn't be---meaningfully what you want to evaluate is whether or not the risk is measurably greater than the alternative.

Well, quite. I should have said "so safe that the risk is negligible despite high penetration, such that the hazard ratio is low enough to be within the statistical bounds that have been predetermined to represent an acceptable level of danger to the general population".

"100% safe" just seemed like a quicker thing to say.

bartolimu
Nov 25, 2002


Scientastic posted:

Well, quite. I should have said "so safe that the risk is negligible despite high penetration, such that the hazard ratio is low enough to be within the statistical bounds that have been predetermined to represent an acceptable level of danger to the general population".
Let's call that "condom safe" for short.

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.

bartolimu posted:

Let's call that "condom safe" for short.
I think `synthetic opioid safe' is a better parallel. That is, one should be under no illusions about safety as an abstract thing, but rather as an elaborate transaction involving a lot of value judgements about the individual risks and benefits, and often lacking any obvious failure mode. It's (comparatively) easy to see if a condom has failed and what harm it has caused by the failure. It is much more difficult to do that with, say, a gram of sodium.

dino.
Mar 28, 2010

Yip Yip, bitch.

CommonShore posted:

Though I bought some organic hippie dippie popcorn from a hippie store a couple weeks ago and that poo poo has the highest pop %age of any popcorn I've ever purchased in my life. Our scorn can't explain that.

No, see I'm fine with that. I don't mind having popping corn that actually pops up nicely. It's difficult to find. But every time there's some MENTION of organic, or nonGMO, some smug white prick has to chatter on about the loving thing for hours, and not actually get to the point of the review: how was the loving product?

bartolimu
Nov 25, 2002


SubG posted:

I think `synthetic opioid safe' is a better parallel. That is, one should be under no illusions about safety as an abstract thing, but rather as an elaborate transaction involving a lot of value judgements about the individual risks and benefits, and often lacking any obvious failure mode. It's (comparatively) easy to see if a condom has failed and what harm it has caused by the failure. It is much more difficult to do that with, say, a gram of sodium.

Counterpoint:

Scientastic posted:

the risk is negligible despite high penetration

therattle
Jul 24, 2007
Soiled Meat

dino. posted:

No, see I'm fine with that. I don't mind having popping corn that actually pops up nicely. It's difficult to find. But every time there's some MENTION of organic, or nonGMO, some smug white prick has to chatter on about the loving thing for hours, and not actually get to the point of the review: how was the loving product?

Dino's the reverse of the cliche; he's a mean sober.

mindphlux
Jan 8, 2004

by R. Guyovich
something that has been bothering me, that maybe someone has some insight on -

I was gifted a few liters of cane syrup last week. it's all homemade, but gifted via a friend of a friend. the bottle is tasty, but I keep having weird things happen - like the first time I opened it, the bottle hissed at me like a soda releasing pressure. it sometimes has hissed since - but I don't think its fermenting. it tastes fine, and is thick like syrup, so it might just be changes in pressure or something?

It has pretty extensive crystallization of sugars or something - like huge chunks of sugar just floating in it.

I have used it for a few weeks and it's delicious and great, but finally got tired of being paranoid, and poured it all into a pot, brought it all to a boil, dissolved the leftover crystals in the bottle with boiling water, dumped the water in the pot, reduced it some, let it cool, and then rebottled it.

anyways I'm just curious if anyone has any expertise on really dense sugary liquids and long term storage. like what are the food safety issues, is my boiling it for a while good enough, have I added too much moisture to the liquid to make it unsafe for room temperature storage, etc.

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.
🔬🍒


mindphlux posted:

really dense sugary liquids

I think you'll be fine. I used to regularly have buffered 40-60% sucrose solutions at room temperature, and they were always fine. Because the sucrose solutions are impossible to autoclave, they were probably more of a risk than your syrup that has been boiled, and you could open the bottles up in rooms full of bacteria and they never got any sort of infection.

It's pretty tough to find anything that can live in anything that's got that high a sugar content.

Chef De Cuisinart
Oct 31, 2010

Brandy does in fact, in my experience, contribute to Getting Down.

mindphlux posted:

something that has been bothering me, that maybe someone has some insight on -

I was gifted a few liters of cane syrup last week. it's all homemade, but gifted via a friend of a friend. the bottle is tasty, but I keep having weird things happen - like the first time I opened it, the bottle hissed at me like a soda releasing pressure. it sometimes has hissed since - but I don't think its fermenting. it tastes fine, and is thick like syrup, so it might just be changes in pressure or something?

It has pretty extensive crystallization of sugars or something - like huge chunks of sugar just floating in it.

I have used it for a few weeks and it's delicious and great, but finally got tired of being paranoid, and poured it all into a pot, brought it all to a boil, dissolved the leftover crystals in the bottle with boiling water, dumped the water in the pot, reduced it some, let it cool, and then rebottled it.

anyways I'm just curious if anyone has any expertise on really dense sugary liquids and long term storage. like what are the food safety issues, is my boiling it for a while good enough, have I added too much moisture to the liquid to make it unsafe for room temperature storage, etc.

Crystals cause more crystallization. The hissing is probably just air being displaced by growing sugar crystals.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


dino. posted:

No, see I'm fine with that. I don't mind having popping corn that actually pops up nicely. It's difficult to find. But every time there's some MENTION of organic, or nonGMO, some smug white prick has to chatter on about the loving thing for hours, and not actually get to the point of the review: how was the loving product?

I think that a lot of "organic, anti-gmo" people just assume that any product which meets those criteria is just behaving how it would have without human intervention.

Oh, you bought some organic, non-gmo peaches at a farmer's market and they went rotten in 36h? (actually, I did) Well that's just how peaches are supposed to be. That's natural.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


Chef De Cuisinart posted:

Crystals cause more crystallization. The hissing is probably just air being displaced by growing sugar crystals.

I'm a bit skeptical of this, not least of all because the by and far the most common cause of gas release in a sugary environment is CO2 from fermentation, and crystals don't actually create volume. Could it be that it just doesn't taste fermented yet?

Scientastic
Mar 1, 2010

TRULY scientastic.
🔬🍒


CommonShore posted:

I'm a bit skeptical of this, not least of all because the by and far the most common cause of gas release in a sugary environment is CO2 from fermentation, and crystals don't actually create volume. Could it be that it just doesn't taste fermented yet?

I'm pretty sure crystals do create an increase in volume, as you move from a disorganised chaotic liquid to a highly organised solid.

But regardless of that, the issue to me is that fermentation would require living cells, which I don't think would be very likely to survive in such a hypertonic solution.

Mr. Wiggles
Dec 1, 2003

We are all drinking from the highball glass of ideology.

CommonShore posted:

I think that a lot of "organic, anti-gmo" people just assume that any product which meets those criteria is just behaving how it would have without human intervention.

Oh, you bought some organic, non-gmo peaches at a farmer's market and they went rotten in 36h? (actually, I did) Well that's just how peaches are supposed to be. That's natural.

If you pick them from the tree ripe, then yes, that is natural and how they're supposed to be. Commercial peaches (and a host of other produce) are picked and shipped unripe for this exact reason. It's also why stuff at your farmer's market (or better yet from your own tree/garden) tastes so much better than stuff from the supermarket.

EVG
Dec 17, 2005

If I Saw It, Here's How It Happened.

Scientastic posted:

I managed to get halfway through your post before I realised you were quoting, and hadn't become a gibbering idiot. I was sincerely concerned that coming off the sauce had made your brain break.

I got tipped off early on by "wife". ;)

EVG
Dec 17, 2005

If I Saw It, Here's How It Happened.
That reminds me that I need to hit up a Farmers Market soon and try to score some peaches. I can't remember the last time I actually won the peach lottery and managed to eat one while perfectly ripe.

Ben Nevis
Jan 20, 2011
I ate so many peaches from the farmers market this year. It was great.

Croatoan
Jun 24, 2005

I am inevitable.
ROBBLE GROBBLE
Living in Georgia most of my life has made me not really care about peaches anymore. They're ok I guess. :banjo:

MAKE NO BABBYS
Jan 28, 2010

mindphlux posted:

something that has been bothering me, that maybe someone has some insight on -

I was gifted a few liters of cane syrup last week. it's all homemade, but gifted via a friend of a friend. the bottle is tasty, but I keep having weird things happen - like the first time I opened it, the bottle hissed at me like a soda releasing pressure. it sometimes has hissed since - but I don't think its fermenting. it tastes fine, and is thick like syrup, so it might just be changes in pressure or something?

It has pretty extensive crystallization of sugars or something - like huge chunks of sugar just floating in it.

I have used it for a few weeks and it's delicious and great, but finally got tired of being paranoid, and poured it all into a pot, brought it all to a boil, dissolved the leftover crystals in the bottle with boiling water, dumped the water in the pot, reduced it some, let it cool, and then rebottled it.

anyways I'm just curious if anyone has any expertise on really dense sugary liquids and long term storage. like what are the food safety issues, is my boiling it for a while good enough, have I added too much moisture to the liquid to make it unsafe for room temperature storage, etc.

The nice thing about syrups is that its really obvious when its gone bad... It gets runny and foams and explodes or has floating mold. Crystals arent something to worry about.

mindphlux
Jan 8, 2004

by R. Guyovich

MAKE NO BABBYS posted:

The nice thing about syrups is that its really obvious when its gone bad... It gets runny and foams and explodes or has floating mold. Crystals arent something to worry about.

cool, thanks everyone for the consensus. I figured mold, off smells, and fermentation would be obvious signs given my experience with beer brewing, but glad to hear I don't even need to be *that* worried about it.

Very Strange Things
May 21, 2008
http://www.buzzfeed.com/krystieyandoli/things-picky-eaters-are-tired-of-hearing

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Safety Dance
Sep 10, 2007

Five degrees to starboard!

God dammit I hate buzzfeed.

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