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Dameius posted:The book thread pointed me over to the hivemind in here on any recommendations that give a good summary/overview/in depth look at Taiwanese history starting around the RoC exile on to present. Books, documentaries, journal articles, whatever other mixed/multimedia format you can think of will do though I prefer something text based if you can. In English if written or subtitled if video. Seconding this
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Dec 10, 2012 17:28
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IIRC, using similar methodology as the 30 mil you could argue Hoover and FDR killed 7.5 million Americans during the great depression and dustbowl.
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Mar 13, 2013 05:03
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They actually actively did support policies that lead to market crash and the destruction of existing food. The point is the ridiculousness of measuring the amount of people who died during a disaster and attributing it to the leader of that region as people he 'killed'. If you even consider the idea of 'murder' needs intent then "Clinton killed two million Iraqis" has more legitimacy than "Mao killed 18-42 million Chinese".
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Mar 13, 2013 05:34
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The numbers are revised up every year with Dikotter being the current highest bidder. The actual data records 15 million 'excess deaths' while the official number, given during Deng Xiaoping's reign (which was decidely anti-Mao) is 18.5 million. From those 15 million excess deaths you need to assume that population estimates were accurate while the number dead was under reported which is, to be fair, likely the case in a famine. The methodology I read for an estimate around 23 million a while back showed that 0 excess deaths were adults in 1959 and some 2 million children, while 0 were children in 1961 and 4 million were adults. Obviously this study's conclusion should not be taken as the final reckoning and better data is required, though likely is not extant. It should be pointed out that 'excess death' is a death per year per 1000 people that exceeds some historical baseline, and never did the real death rate fall below what it was before the communists took power, aka even at its worst the great leap forward saw a lower death rate than, say, 1948. Actually life expectancy increased more than a year per year while Mao had power statistically making the Chinese people immortal. I think we can agree that the great famine was pretty horrible for the Chinese people and worsened by the policies enacted by the government at the time, that's not in dispute by anyone as far as I am aware. The argument should be: what purpose does framing those who died in the famine as being 'killed by Mao' serve? No other nation or leader (aside from the USSR) has had this treatment and it would be preposterous to do to say, Hoover, even though the results are non-negligible. Secondly, why is the nearly impossible task of estimating the precise number of those 'killed' by the great leap forward of such a monumental importance to the history of China and the legacy of Mao? Mao saw the population of China increase by 500,000,000 people, a number that's a bit more likely to be accurate than the 15-70 mil. Does this count as people Mao kept alive? If not, why not?
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Mar 13, 2013 12:19
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GuestBob posted:Are you arguing that by seeking to frame causal relationships between the political leadership of a command economy and oppressive political system and the events which took place under their care we are actually excusing the current incarnation of the Chinese Communist Party of their responsibility in some way? Not sure where it sounded like I was doing that, anyway that's not my point to be sure. Forgive me for getting rhetorical here, but many of you make it sound like being in control of a command economy makes you God and therefore any deaths due to economic conditions must be the divine will. You forget that the party itself had many actors and that there was, you know, an actual climate induced famine going on. You also take for granted that most governments in the world exert huge influence on the economic activity of their territory, did Obama force Americans out of work when the government has the tools to switch to a command economy and employ everyone? Did Hoover cause the dustbowl? Why is Mao a murderer for the exaggerating effects on the famine due to the incompetence of some of his government's policies? It makes as much sense to say that Reagan killed the astronauts on the Challenger, or that the head of NASA did. And my earlier points, why is Clinton not remembered for killing over a million Iraqis? Why isn't Mao remembered for saving the lives of 500,000,000 people? If Mao's a murderer, where's his mens rea? Where's his motive? The point is that there is an unequal measure of political leaders and its boring, misleading, and intellectually bankrupt. It sells books though.
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Mar 13, 2013 14:55
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WarpedNaba posted:Considering that Mao considered more than half his country's population expendable and that the current breed of the party ain't much better, I'd say it doesn't matter much to anyone in this point. This isn't true
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Sep 1, 2013 08:55
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Remember when Americans got super mad and rebelled against their government for collecting all the metadata on every electronic form of communication they used
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Jun 5, 2015 20:29
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Bloodnose posted:Yes, actually. I am legit proud of the fact that ... hate speech [is] legal in the US. It's not tho edit: or you mean saying the jews control stuff or w/e yeah that owns Modest Mao fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 05:35
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I always thought it weird that it scores high on libertarian freedom indexes when there's literally no suffrage
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Jun 18, 2017 02:40
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simplefish posted:Well in terms of press freedom, Reporters Without Borders just opted to set up their Asia office in Taiwan instead of Hong Kong. Taiwan ranks something like 51st in terms of global press freedom, HK 69th, China 138th, or similar (this is all from memory) Taiwan's press is both free and utter garbage Ranked 45th. Why? China 
Modest Mao fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Jun 18, 2017 |
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Jun 18, 2017 04:20
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Who is the paramount leader of china? No, she is!
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Jun 22, 2017 05:35
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did official titles and term limits matter for previous leaders of China
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Feb 26, 2018 06:03
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Mainland needs to end its disobedience and rejoin her brothers and sisters under the rulership of the DPP
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Feb 26, 2018 08:48
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Capitalism is a system where free labor, mass production, wages, markets and profit are the dominant forms of economic activity and it's not only a great definition it applies to those 3 societies. The fact that in the last 100 or so years virtually every society in the world adopted a capitalist economic model is extraordinary not meaningless. hth
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Mar 21, 2018 03:13
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Kassad posted:It raises the question of what country is capitalist, by that definition. You could probably say a good chunk of Europe isn't, depending how you frame it. The U.S. federal + state government spending makes up 36% of it's GPD. Capitalism is either capital chasing more capital or it's a myth and has never existed.
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Mar 22, 2018 08:46
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Pro PRC Laowai is right
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Jun 14, 2018 20:21
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| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 08:21 |
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icantfindaname posted:They skew racist They're the racists from liberal parts of the country, it's true
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Oct 26, 2018 01:26
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