China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

chird: Sep 26, 2004

Pro-PRC Laowai posted:

Back injury when swimming and boxun doesn't count as actual news. Here's a tip, if the NED is throwing cash at something, it's pretty much bullshit.

Why don't they just go "oh piff, he's fine he hurt his back doing the butterfly, what a champ" then, instead of blocking his name and not responding to inevitable questions.

Still don't think it's anything earth-shattering because the rest of the happy brigade are seemingly going about their usual business unperturbed. Could be a mild heart attack as one 'close source' said to some paper.

Fun story to (try to) follow.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2012 18:15

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 19:49

chird: Sep 26, 2004

I'm in China and I agree it is being used as a distraction by both countries, and most people on the forum think its silly to be arguing over some 'rocks'. But who do you actually think it should belong to? International law seems to suggest Japan. But here is the Chinese/Taiwan claim to the islands, also sounds logical when not being yelled by a car-burning loony, right? Where's the rub?

China Daily posted:

Before the middle of the 19th century, various maps published in Japan used the same color to mark China and the Diaoyu Islands.

At the same time, related documents and maps of Britain, France, United States and Spain also showed the Diaoyu Islands belonging to China.

One noticeable example is a map made by the British Navy in 1877 - China East Coast: Hong Kong to Gulf of Liau-Tung, which marked the Diaoyu Islands as subsidiary islands of Taiwan Island, and separated them from the islands of Japan. Thereafter this map was used as reference for the signing of Treaty of Shimonoseki.

In January 1895, three months before the Treaty of Shimonoseki was signed between Japan and China, after the latter was defeated in the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1895, Japan illegally took over the Diaoyu Islands and included them in its Okinawa Prefecture. It cannot be denied that the Diaoyu Islands were ceded to Japan as subsidiary islands of Taiwan in 1895 after the Treaty was signed.

However, in December 1943, leaders of the United States, Britain and China signed the Cairo Declaration, declaring that all the territories that Japan had seized from China should be returned. The Potsdam Proclamation signed by China, the United States and Britain in July 1945 (later adhered to by the Soviet Union) stipulated that: "The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out".

In August 1945, Japan accepted the Potsdam Proclamation and surrendered unconditionally, which means both documents came into effect.

After World War II ended, China took back its territories stolen by Japan, including Taiwan Island and its subsidiary islands. Therefore as part of the Taiwan Islands, the Diaoyu Islands were returned to China under international law.
However, in September 1951, Japan signed the San Francisco Peace Treaty with the US and other allied powers, and single-handedly surrendered the Diaoyu Islands, along with Okinawa, to the administration of Washington.

In response, Zhou Enlai, the then premier and foreign minister of China, sternly declared that a San Francisco treaty signed without the People's Republic of China's participation is unlawful and illegitimate.

In June 1971, Washington and Tokyo signed the "Okinawa Reversion Agreement", parceling up the "administrative rights" of Diaoyu Islands to Japan.

The Chinese Foreign Ministry in response issued a statement in December later that year, which said "the agreement is a blatant infringement on China's territorial sovereignty that is intolerable for the Chinese people. The US and Japan list China's Diaoyu and other islands into the agreement's 'reversion area' is completely unlawful. It cannot change the People's Republic of China's sovereignty right on those islands." link

# ¿ Sep 19, 2012 03:44

chird: Sep 26, 2004

Fall Sick and Die posted:

They don't know, they've never heard of Wang Lijun, they never noticed Bo Xilai disappeared, they know he was powerful and now his wife is in jail because she's bad.

Echoing this and FSAD's wife's account. The Bo Xilai case is 'the biggest scandal to hit the party for 40 years' or whatever in the Western press, but due to the censorship people have basically forgotten all about it if they even knew about it in the first place.

A Chinese girl who had been abroad once said to me 'If you want to learn to be Chinese you just need to learn not to care about anything [big]'. A cynical view, but one that is echoed in the words of people I met when I first came and naively assumed people were secretly raging against the machine.

Part of western thought is that its important to be active in doing the right thing, not voting makes you a coward, Plato - �The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.�, etc. Compare this to the Daoist philosophy of wu-wei which still has at least some influence, "to do nothing is almost always the best solution". Whether the apathy is really this deeply ingrained or just a by-product of the political system I am personally still unsure. China has no voting system and if they rail against anything they can get in serious trouble, or at least lose out on promotions, embarrass family etc. There's a lot of pressure to 'go along with the stream'.

The angriest I've seen a person get was actually disheartening because they were an ordinary farmer-type bellowing with a student about how the government was infallible, had never done anything wrong, the system was perfect, politicians were allowed to be corrupt to get the job done, if we don't trust the system the japs will be back, etc. For every 1 Chinese person who knows things are not always what they seem, there's 6-7 that believe the party line coz they've never heard anything different.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2012 04:08

chird: Sep 26, 2004

Although not a priority, the island dispute could be turned into a positive if handled meticulously. Run another couple of months of "look how far we're willing to go to protect our poo poo, world - take heed!" stuff, without actually doing much. Appeases the populace and affirms the importance of the party to defense, and sends a message to the world about China's willingness to defend itself (including Taiwan, Tibet, etc).

The thing is, no side really cares about the rock itself as oppose to the seas around it and rights to such, but ordinary people are conversely much more likely to get emotional over a rock than a random block of water. Take the rock out the equation, and politicians can safely negotiate the splitting up of the rights of the oceans without being under constant public supervision.

Begin to return the rhetoric to how China is all about a peaceful rise and can negotiate like gents, unlike gun-toting country-invading USA. Take the rock out of the picture by downplaying it's size or significance, ignoring it completely in the media, or putting it down as a symbol of Chinese-Japanese friendship. Ok this last one might be hard to pull off, but along the lines of sticking a plaque on it and having such a complicated set of jurisdiction rules over it that no-one will really understand what it means, and the Chinese media can portray it as still being theirs and they've not made concessions. Forget about flags and stuff because it'll complicate the Taiwan issue. Then everyone goes home and has a nice cup of tea.

-------------------

The hip new swinging government is about to come into power where they will likely have 10 years to change China for the good, in potentially very difficult circumstances. If you were in charge what would be your priorities and how would you go about realizing them?

chird fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Sep 26, 2012

# ¿ Sep 26, 2012 05:17

chird: Sep 26, 2004

When I saw the massive jump in replies to the thread I immediately went to BBC news to see if something big'd gone down in the dao

# ¿ Oct 1, 2012 12:39

chird: Sep 26, 2004

Thought this was quite interesting, a look at the recent research from SWE about income gap etc.

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2012/12/10/perception-vs-reality-charting-chinas-family-value/?mod=WSJBlog

# ¿ Dec 13, 2012 14:20

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 19:49

chird: Sep 26, 2004

US senate have voted in favor of a bill recognizing "The unilateral actions of a third party will not affect United States acknowledgement of the administration of Japan over the Senkaku Islands". This doesn't say "Japan we've got your back on the islands", there's a difference between administration and ownership, but feathers be ruffled.

The Global Times goes all out on related news:

quote:

The Japanese Air Self-Defense Force scrambled F-15 fighter jets to intercept China's marine surveillance aircrafts over the Diaoyu Islands Saturday. Although Prime Minister-elect Shinzo Abe announced he would defer dispatching law enforcement staff to the islands and will instead send envoys to neighboring countries to mend ties, his hawkish stance will not change, and nor will the right-wing tendency of Japanese society. The friction and tensions between China and Japan will continue to rise.

More Chinese are wondering if a war will break out between the two. Some strategists believe that although neither has the will to fight a war, the Diaoyu dispute could be the trigger. Once the dispute intensifies into a war, the sentiments of the public from both countries may explode, which will result in large-scale military clashes.

The Chinese public knows little about the country's military strength and their contempt for Japan is soaring. The deeply rooted resentment against Japan, once ignited, will have incredible power.

If China's marine surveillance aircraft is downed during its confrontation with Japan's fighter jets, the Chinese public will demand that the government take revenge. An apology from Japan will not be enough, and the public will expect a Japanese jet to be taken down. The government cannot turn a blind eye when its citizens suffer losses in the islands.

The Chinese government is playing the leading role in securing Diaoyu's sovereignty. Japan's provocation in the islands is no longer aimed at individual Chinese but is a direct challenge to China's reputation. If the government steps back, it will become the world's laughing stock. If it goes forward, it will face military confrontation between the two.

Going forward is the only choice for the Chinese government, while it needs to think carefully about how to strike Japan's arrogance and at the same time maintain peace and stability in the Asia-Pacific region.

The Chinese government should simulate the various situations of an intensified Diaoyu crisis and enunciate principles that require Japan pay the same price. The principles should be made known to both Japan and the US. There's no compromise over the principles.

The Chinese public should also be informed of such principles, so that they will know about the Chinese government's determination in safeguarding the sovereignty of the Diaoyu Islands and the importance of a well thought out strategy. China will carry out policies that are reasonable and forceful.

The principles will make outsiders acknowledge China's firmness in its actions and stop harboring any illusions. They will believe China has a bottom line for its actions, and will not misunderstand China's necessity to take military revenge on Japan.

Of course Japan may retaliate against China, leading to a large-scale war. If this really happens, China can only face Japan in a catastrophe intentionally set by the US.

So, war is likely, for the sake of saving face? Also, in the end it's all America's fault anyway. With stuff like this how can anyone believe the peaceful rise rhetoric?

I'm not sure at the line 'The Chinese public knows little about the country's military strength'. It seems to be recognizing that right now, China's military is sub-par.

Surely the Global Times is just where the dementia-laced cadres are sent out to pasture, so they can give China a rep for being crazy enough they just...might...be crazy, so the other kids better treat them nice.

# ¿ Dec 25, 2012 08:35

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally