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No Country for Old Counter Counter Terrorists starring the Support as Aton Chigurh.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 16:51 |
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| # ? May 22, 2013 08:26 |
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Violently Car posted:I just don't get it, though. People tell me all the time that he's bad but in every single game he's in, he is the most important member of the other team and is usually the most instrumental in their victory (unless some commando snowballs out of control). Is it just something everyone accepts in games that healer classes are just going to be way better than everyone else? I have no idea how a Support could've reamed you so hard for you to be this mad about them. Yes a good defender really helps their team out but they generally don't go 20-0 like good Commandos do, and you definitely shouldn't be dying to them very often so I have no idea how one has made you so angry about them.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 16:56 |
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I don't really want to get into this argument for much longer because basically it goes on forever, but here goes for now...Macavity posted:Nobody is saying he's bad, dude. No one (in this thread) has ever said that. No one here did, but I've been told by a lot of the top players, including a bunch of the DStP guys, that they would take literally any class over Support right now, and they used words such as "terrible" and "non-viable" to describe him. Macavity posted:You say healing classes are "fundamentally broken" in that they require you to have a healer to be an effective team. That's arguable, especially when you're talking about playing with people who are actually good and not just using a Support to save their rear end from really dumb plays. I can't figure out your point here. Macavity posted:But the big issue is that the ability to heal makes a game more fun for everyone. Correct, but that doesn't necessarily mean a "healer". Abilities like Cheston's roar, or things like Regenitol, are a good way of having healing without having a healer. While I'm not saying everyone should have a self-heal, having your own innate sustainability reduces the need for a healer class. Obviously, you don't want to go too far or else you have 5x healing characters or else you make the game into a really horrible sustain-based thing and let's not get into that... Macavity posted:You don't have to walk all the way back to spawn every time you get smacked down. If you're the healer, you can contribute to your team in a way that doesn't rely solely on twitch-shooting. No, I'm perfectly okay with there being classes that don't excel in direct combat. I would really just like to see ones that also have more gameplay other than "hold down your left mouse button over a guy to give them all their health back." I'm not even a hater of healing as a general concept. I'd like to see a defender with a burst heal, or some sort of vampirism skill. I just don't like the uninteractive, sustain-based weapons they have. Also, I firmly believe that medics and engineers did a great deal of harm to TF2's gameplay, but  .
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:01 |
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Zahki posted:I have no idea how a Support could've reamed you so hard for you to be this mad about them. Yes a good defender really helps their team out but they generally don't go 20-0 like good Commandos do, and you definitely shouldn't be dying to them very often so I have no idea how one has made you so angry about them. A 20-0 Commando doesn't have even the smallest amount of poo poo on a Defender that can deny the Anni, split-push both lanes, save his entire team, make more money than the Commando, buy more bots, and poo poo DPS everywhere. Kills are cool too though, I guess. Some people care a lot about them.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:12 |
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Where do you guys put your turrets as defenders? I'm getting better at support but whenever I try to put turrets down they're either too far back and completely useless or I try to place it offensively and it just gets destroyed before it can deploy properly. Especially on the map with the two bridges in the middle, if I place it on the bridge it's just a sitting duck. I also have extra SMNC invites if anyone wants one: http://steamcommunity.com/id/AdorableSpider
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:26 |
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Zen Guy posted:Where do you guys put your turrets as defenders? I'm getting better at support but whenever I try to put turrets down they're either too far back and completely useless or I try to place it offensively and it just gets destroyed before it can deploy properly. Especially on the map with the two bridges in the middle, if I place it on the bridge it's just a sitting duck. Put it behind one of the posts on the bridge, it keeps it out of the line of sight for the most part and can blast people that try to push up. It'll get destroyed if someone uses an ejector, but hey! Good places for them are right behind walls, generally. Or right by the annihilator.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:28 |
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I understand what vc is going on about, I think. I mean, moment to moment they're not really broken, I wouldn't say, but they just have a few really specialist things they can do really well. For instance, area control in small spaces, like the annihilator. But I think these are things that can be balanced. For instance, maybe just make Support's turret take longer to set-up. So then, Support has a single really powerful turret that takes a while to set up, and Combat Girl has multiple weaker ones that die with her, but can up really easily. Regardless of whether they're broken, though, I definitely agree that the game could benefit from more diverse healers, and I'm sure they'll add in something like that. A class that had something that sort of worked like a innate Generous Kill, that gave life to his teammates whenever he scored a kill, could be really interesting. Tossable healing bombs would be cool. I dunno, I haven't played a lot of mobas or class based fps games, even; what sort of different healing mechanics are present in those games?
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:35 |
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To be honest, the Support isn't even that much of a healer. Other than building up early-game armor, I've never found the healbeam terribly useful beyond "well I've got nothing better to do so whatever, have some health." On the other hand, airstrikes, the shotgun, and firebases will tear right through most classes and let you lock down an area pretty well so long as your teammates have your back.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:36 |
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Violently Car posted:Also, I firmly believe that medics and engineers did a great deal of harm to TF2's gameplay, but I think Spy/SMNC's Commandos could be argued to do farm more harm. Commandos, when played wrong, can ruin a team. When played right, seem borderline OP. I think some people play Support/Combat Girl far too passively. Sure, you can heal people, but don't just do that. I've been at the top of the team in terms of kills, bots and cash an handful of times just by being aggressive with my shotgun/smg and baiting into turrets/grappling. My experience is that teams without defenders, lose. 
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:37 |
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Oxyclean posted:My experience is that teams without defenders, lose. I mean, there's definitely truth to that, but your experience is also probably skewed because right now the only teams that play without a defender are generally either uncoordinated or new teams, who don't know what they're doing. So they'd probably lose anyway, heh. Opposing Farce posted:To be honest, the Support isn't even that much of a healer. Other than building up early-game armor, I've never found the healbeam terribly useful beyond "well I've got nothing better to do so whatever, have some health." It is different than Combat Girl's heal, but if you have an enforcer + support duo, like Gunner & Support, it can be really nasty. I mean, early game no one really has the damage to take them out easily, so if you get baited into attacking them you're really just giving them free juice & money. Kaboobi posted:Put it behind one of the posts on the bridge, it keeps it out of the line of sight for the most part and can blast people that try to push up. One really helpful thing in this game is to keep an eye out for what other players do that is really annoying; that's a sign that it's something you might want to try if you play that pro.  For instance, a firebase right on the lip of Spunky's annihilator entrance (on the ground floor) is pretty great. Shoots anyone trying to get in from, and can often get an angle to hit people on either the top or bottom, too. But it's also way harder to hit than a firebase that's right in the middle of all the action down there.Man I want some Spunky Chickey action. And more crazy jungle mobs! XboxPants fucked around with this message at Feb 29, 2012 around 17:41 |
| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:37 |
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I hope they fix Spunky for the next update. I really like how different it plays.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:39 |
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EVIR Gibson posted:I would like one please! MisterFuzzles posted:Would appreciate one. Ill be at work until late so I wont be around to accept anything so give it to someone else if you'd like. Thanks! Added, one more left once I trade these off.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:41 |
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Opposing Farce posted:To be honest, the Support isn't even that much of a healer. Other than building up early-game armor, I've never found the healbeam terribly useful beyond "well I've got nothing better to do so whatever, have some health." I've said this before but Support and Combat Girl are not called "healer", they are called "Defenders." They are all about Area Denial, being able to heal friendly bots and pros is there to help with denying the enemies advancements. Orange Crush Rush fucked around with this message at Feb 29, 2012 around 17:46 |
| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:41 |
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Oxyclean posted:I think Spy/SMNC's Commandos could be argued to do farm more harm. When I say "harm" I mean, the way they influence how entire games play out isn't very good. The pace and strategy revolves around them, whereas assassin-types just sorta kill a guy. I will say, though, I think it's really bad for commandos to be really powerful in an early beta where there's no matchmaking, when you're inviting a bunch of new players. It seems like a really great way to shrink your player numbers. They can be good once there's matchmaking, but right now, I bet they're making a lot of people play one or two games then quit.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:43 |
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Saint Freak posted:A 20-0 Commando doesn't have even the smallest amount of poo poo on a Defender that can deny the Anni, split-push both lanes, save his entire team, make more money than the Commando, buy more bots, and poo poo DPS everywhere. This is ridiculous hyperbole. 'poo poo DPS everywhere', yeah if you walk facefirst into their turret, don't do that. 'Save his entire team'? How? The healgun won't even save one ally being focused down, let alone an entire team. Deny the anni is the only one there I agree with and yeah it's annoying to have to root out a Support who has his turret right on the button, but thats area denial, thats kind of their niche. It's far easier to carry a team with a Commando than a Defender, whether you think kills are important or not. Zahki fucked around with this message at Feb 29, 2012 around 17:49 |
| # ? Feb 29, 2012 17:46 |
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quote:Kills are cool too though, I guess. Some people care a lot about them.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 18:32 |
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Macavity posted:Kills are very important. Other than their primary function of making the opposing team Mad At Video Games, they also take them out of the game for 2-20 seconds and allow you to push forward. That helps far more than having a turret up or "denying" an area with an air strike for a second. Yeah, and honestly even if a defender or any other class can do a ton of damage, it can often be hard to seal the deal. Tactical retreats are a basic move in games like this, and if you have a commando who can gank the stragglers that's a pretty huge deal. Like you say, taking them out of the battle for a while as well and handing out some assists to the team is a pretty big deal.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 18:44 |
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I read that CG's heal beats out Support's when she's on two or more targets, plus CG's turrets are faster and laser has more usability than airstrike. Why aren't you upset about CG, VC?
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 22:16 |
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If I wanted to maximize CG/Support heals, would RoF or Reload be more effective? I'd assume RoF, but I'd rather be sure before plunking down on even more endorsements.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 22:32 |
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WAMPA_STOMPA posted:I read that CG's heal beats out Support's when she's on two or more targets, plus CG's turrets are faster and laser has more usability than airstrike. Why aren't you upset about CG, VC? I believe CG heals at 60% the rate Support does, but can heal up to 5 targets at once.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 22:32 |
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Kaboobi posted:I believe CG heals at 60% the rate Support does, but can heal up to 5 targets at once. For some reason I always thought it was 40%. Is there some place we can go to look up the exact numbers?
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 22:53 |
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WAMPA_STOMPA posted:I read that CG's heal beats out Support's when she's on two or more targets, plus CG's turrets are faster and laser has more usability than airstrike. Why aren't you upset about CG, VC? Her damage is way worse than Support's, she doesn't become a total god in open space, and you can actually DPS someone through her heals.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 23:10 |
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Violently Car posted:Her damage is way worse than Support's, she doesn't become a total god in open space, and you can actually DPS someone through her heals. Listen I don't really like the support that much but you are seriously over the top about it. I would lower his turret's health/damage and the cooldown to compensate, but you just have this irrational hatred of anything that can heal.
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| # ? Feb 29, 2012 23:44 |
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So where do I get this game? I followed the link, in the OP, to sign up for Beta. It had me link my Steam account to my Uberent account. It took me to a page that said the accounts were now linked. Now what?
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 01:31 |
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Slimy posted:So where do I get this game? I followed the link, in the OP, to sign up for Beta. It had me link my Steam account to my Uberent account. It took me to a page that said the accounts were now linked. Now what? Eventually (took me a week) you'll get a beta key at you email to install/register the game. Or you can ask somebody for an invite (which you get when you install the game with the key they give you)
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 01:33 |
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Speaking of which.I have Send me a friend invite and i`ll throw you one. http://steamcommunity.com/id/ExplosiveExplosion VocalizePlayerDeath fucked around with this message at Mar 1, 2012 around 02:15 |
| # ? Mar 1, 2012 01:40 |
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Violently Car posted:Her damage is way worse than Support's, she doesn't become a total god in open space, and you can actually DPS someone through her heals. What's weird is that in open space I think Support would be the worst off. Support seems best in tight corridors where enemies can't escape the turret and he can get up close for shotgunning. How does this jive with your opinion of him being good in open areas?
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 01:44 |
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Support can't use air strike in a corridor.
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 01:53 |
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The bridges in bullet gorge are tight corridors.
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 05:19 |
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Lasers are pretty great in tight corridors, like the bridges and the turret hallway thing in Loco
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 05:49 |
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Air strike isn't as good as laser. Normal airstrikes are easy to dodge, and groundzeros can be nullified by moving under any overhang. All three levels have overhangs all over the place except like near the moneyball spawn zone.
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 07:20 |
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Yeah "corridor" is a bit misleading, it's anything with a roof overhead that messes up airstrikes. Though the strike does hit whatever was above the target at the time, so Loco Moco is fun being in the jungle when your teammate runs underneath an overhang to hide from an airstrike & you get blasted with it instead while a JungleBouncer is pounding you into the ground 
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 07:36 |
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Violently Car posted:Her damage is way worse than Support's, she doesn't become a total god in open space, and you can actually DPS someone through her heals. All classes can deal more damage per second than support can heal. Unless the support is hilariously high level compared to the attacker.
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 07:37 |
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We're taking all of these issues too far on their own. From my experience, the game is fairly well balanced. For those complaining about commandos and defenders being necessary to win, what about the other classes required to win? You pretty much need an enforcer as a damage sponge, a damage dealer and a utility class like sharpshooter, striker or vet is also is a key component. The game rewards compositions that give a team the ability to deal with any situation. Seriously, where's the complaining about enforcers because they're necessary to win games? I don't think I've seen an enforcer-less team ever win. What about teams without mobile DPS? Not all team comps are viable and no dotalike has ever been built on that principle. I think we're lucky that defenders are enjoyable and rewarding to play and that a moderately coordinated team can deal with their threats, and the same goes for all other classes as well when your team has a wide variety of tools available to them.
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 14:21 |
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Violently Car posted:Support can't use air strike in a corridor. Being able to deny the Annihilator from underneath for all eternity on the jungle map is amazing though.
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 14:22 |
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Danrok posted:Being able to deny the Annihilator from underneath for all eternity on the jungle map is amazing though. Or throwing it below a junglers escape route/a jungle grapple. Awareness is important and can be funny.
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 14:44 |
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And herein lies the eternal problem of this genre: The player on the bottom of the scoreboard is ALWAYS more influential than the player on the top.
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 16:58 |
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Eejit posted:The game rewards compositions that give a team the ability to deal with any situation. I think really the Sharpshooter is the only role you can do without. It really doesn't fulfill a role, except as a free character, I mean it's nifty, but if you had to choose between a Sharpshooter and another Support/Enforcer/Striker choosing another Support/Enforcer/Striker is probebly the better choice overall, especially another support.
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 17:07 |
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I am so sad replays don't work right now. I was at the Loco Moco annihilator as Cheston and I threw a barrel all the way to the enemy's moneyball and it landed on a dude and he died. 
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 17:18 |
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| # ? May 22, 2013 08:26 |
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KildarX posted:I think really the Sharpshooter is the only role you can do without. It really doesn't fulfill a role, except as a free character, I mean it's nifty, but if you had to choose between a Sharpshooter and another Support/Enforcer/Striker choosing another Support/Enforcer/Striker is probebly the better choice overall, especially another support. The only map that I'd say a sharpshooter is better than second support is the Jungle map, and that's mostly because as a Sniper you can sit next to your first turret on the right side for either team and headshot the people that are buying the annihilator unless they stand in a very specific place. My record is 3 kills before the other team wised up and sent someone after me.
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| # ? Mar 1, 2012 18:10 |
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