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El Tortuga posted:Holy poo poo, you guys. This thread is tearing itself apart. Let's just relax and have a look at this. ME3 wouldn't have the neutral option because [the universe is burning and it's no time for neutrality/no-one took the neutral options/they were rushed and didn't have time to put them in] (delete as prejudice dictates), so that's clearly an image for the ME1 or ME2 threads  (Full sized image because it's a new page)
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:27 |
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| # ? May 22, 2013 12:21 |
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Zoran posted:Believe it or not, yes, a bad story can make the whole game feel less fun. Astonishing, I know. No, I get that, but the sentiment I'm addressing is "these three games have a great story until the last 20 minutes and because of that last 20 minutes I retroactively hate everything else". There are a lot of films I love that have mediocre (Sunshine) or outright terrible (Hard Candy) endings. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Maybe you should read the psychological studies where people who have a medical procedure that ends with pain remember the entire procedure as being very painful, whereas people who have painful procedures that end "nicely" remember the whole thing much more fondly. That has absolutely nothing to do with video games or narratives and you know it. Stop it.
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:27 |
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precision posted:That has absolutely nothing to do with video games or narratives and you know it. Stop it. Don't you understand? He's a genius who destroys arguments merely by posting anything he's so superior to everyone else! [edit] I think there are arguments for level scaling, especially in the main quest line. I haven't seen them made, though. And by and large RPGs tend to be more difficult at the start than at the end because so much of the game is understanding the mechanics of the system. Something like an FPS has an assumed level of competency because the skills are pretty much universal, but knowing the ins and outs of 2nd Ed D&D will do gently caress all if you're trying to play NWN2, for example. MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at Apr 24, 2012 around 23:31 |
| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:28 |
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Aristobulus posted:Welcome to the 99%. Seriously just read through some of this thread, or the spoiler thread, to see how many people are like you and got seriously, seriously burned by that ending. I know I sure did. Hell, it's not even the fact that the ending is bad that burns me so much. 'Cause hey, people make mistakes. It's that Bioware has been having some really crappy business practices lately, like calling us idiots for calling them out on their dumbass ending, then deciding to halfheartedly 'elaborate' on it once they pissed off practically their whole fanbase and nearly killed their biggest IP. And stunts like charging $10 for day one DLC that's really important to the storyline. It's almost like Bioware wants to loose customers. I mean, this wouldn't the first time I have completely sworn off a game company and franchise I previously loved. After the last couple Final Fantasies, I was just like, gently caress it, not buying any more Square Enix or Final Fantasy poo poo anymore. It's not like they've made any good ones in the last decade. Bioware is dangerously close to joining Square. "Hey, we just called you an idiot for not liking our ending, here's some DLC you should buy from us!" "Yeah, I dunno." Gammatron 64 fucked around with this message at Apr 24, 2012 around 23:39 |
| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:36 |
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What it comes down to for me anyway is that the gameplay doesn't match the narrative. Even on my first play of ME2, it was easy. This was Bad in at least certain specific places. Like, the Collector Ship. That place is creepy, man! It's a bug hunt! It seemed like poo poo was about to get real! And then you actually start fighting things, and it's like... oh. This is just like every other fight has been. There's no sense of danger or pressure. Compare that to another upgrade-based third-person shooter like Dead Space 2. There were parts of that game that were pants-shittingly terrifying not just because the game told me so, but because things were kicking my rear end and I had no idea what to do about it.
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:37 |
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Guys, he's just making a joke, it's okay.  WRT New Vegas being a cargo cult RPG: in this particular instance it's just a result of being the same type of game as Fallout 3 and the other TES games where the world is filled with useless poo poo you can still pick up and carry around for some reason and you are walking around with like 10 different weapons with thousands of rounds of ammunition. Hardcore mode improved this a bit and made a lot of the useless items, well, useful, but it didn't end up having any real impact other than making it harder to heal crippled limbs. And still didn't address the silliness of a guy wandering around just carrying all this poo poo. Or at least that's how I interpret the term, I could be mistaken.
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:39 |
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Gammatron 64 posted:Hell, it's not even the fact that the ending is bad that burns me so much. 'Cause hey, people make mistakes. It's that Bioware has been having some really crappy business practices lately, like calling us idiots for calling them out on their dumbass ending, then deciding to halfheartedly 'elaborate' on it once they pissed off practically their whole fanbase and nearly killed their biggest IP. And stunts like charging $10 for day one DLC that's really important to the storyline. It's almost like Bioware wants to loose customers. I got the impression that a lot of the shadier business stuff came from EA? Someone in here was saying that Bioware had originally intended to have Javik be included in the storyline, but EA made them withhold it for the  .That press release, though...drat. "We know that a lot of the fans aren't happy with our ending, but we'd just like to remind you that this game has received several perfect reviews  ."Like, I understand that it must be difficult to see fans think that the last five minutes mars the rest of the (actually pretty great) game, but saying, "I know you think that the game is bad, but please remember that it is actually good," just seems like the wrong way to go about things.
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:40 |
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I actually was going to play through 1 & 2 again so I had a Renegade Shep playthrough but after that, why bother? I can just play the end of my Paragon Shep and see the same thing. It's disappointing to know that regardless of what I do, I have the same three endings as any other playthrough.
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:45 |
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losonti tokash posted:WRT New Vegas being a cargo cult RPG: in this particular instance it's just a result of being the same type of game as Fallout 3 and the other TES games where the world is filled with useless poo poo you can still pick up and carry around for some reason I think pretty much every single item in NV is actually used for crafting something or other, at least with the DLCs. I think they went overboard to make everything useful but you know. And it's a sequel to FO3 that uses the same engine and assets, yeah it's going to be the same on the surface. The actual meat of it was much improved, though, what with some of the people who were involved in the original Fallouts/Van Buren involved - and I'd add Fallouts 1-2 to the list I made earlier with gay abandon. Oh, and wrt FNV: try playing with jsawyer.esp, rope kid's mod owns and gets rid of a lot of the handholding the base game does.
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:47 |
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JGBeagle posted:I actually was going to play through 1 & 2 again so I had a Renegade Shep playthrough but after that, why bother? I can just play the end of my Paragon Shep and see the same thing. It's disappointing to know that regardless of what I do, I have the same three endings as any other playthrough. Hopefully that changes with the ending. I have faith in the writing team...I just don't have faith that they will be allowed to fix it. I mean, the rest of the games ARE still really good, it's just that there's that constant nagging feeling of "none of this matters at all" totally killing every triumphant moment and victory you have in the series. But I really do think the writing team understands that and would like to fix that in the ending DLC.
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:48 |
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JGBeagle posted:I actually was going to play through 1 & 2 again so I had a Renegade Shep playthrough but after that, why bother? I can just play the end of my Paragon Shep and see the same thing. It's disappointing to know that regardless of what I do, I have the same three endings as any other playthrough. This one is definitely more about the journey. How else will you get to absolutely and totally gently caress things up on Tuchanka? (I personally am definitely more in this camp. Hell, I still replay Crysis occasionally - stopping the instant you fight your last Korean)
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:50 |
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MrL_JaKiri posted:This one is definitely more about the journey. How else will you get to absolutely and totally gently caress things up on Tuchanka? Only if Wrex or Eve is alive. It ends fairly well if they're dead. You convince Mordin to just walk away and Wreav never finds out he was duped. EDIT: Woops, thought this was the spoiler thread. RatHat fucked around with this message at Apr 24, 2012 around 23:54 |
| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:52 |
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Scuzzywuffit posted:Like, I understand that it must be difficult to see fans think that the last five minutes mars the rest of the (actually pretty great) game, but saying, "I know you think that the game is bad, but please remember that it is actually good," just seems like the wrong way to go about things. Definitely. But I also think it's the wrong way to go about things to say "Change the ending of this game that is already done." Or to say "Because one writer had a totally idiotic ending in mind for one of your games, I'm not buying your games anymore". To do that is offensive to all the people who worked so hard making the 99% of the game that is great. It's punishing the people who wrote characters like Garrus and Thane and Mordin, the people who voiced them, the artists who made the Citadel look so nice, the scenario writers for terrific things like Overlord or Kasumi's loyalty mission... it's punishing the hard work of all those people who very well might be working on BioWare's next game, which has a nonzero chance of being good, just because Casey Hudson gave free reign over the ending to a guy with a terrible idea. And I don't get that, and can't get behind it.
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:52 |
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Scuzzywuffit posted:I got the impression that a lot of the shadier business stuff came from EA? Someone in here was saying that Bioware had originally intended to have Javik be included in the storyline, but EA made them withhold it for the I think Bioware saying something like, 'it seems you don't like some aspects, but please try to remember the good stuff' wouldn't be too bad, I don't think anyone would get bent out of shape over that sentiment. They're not insulting anyone or anything, and they aren't really directly insulting anyone right now either. Thing is that many game reviwers/journalists have, and Bioware going, 'well their opinion is worth more to us than yours' does send a certain message to the fanbase.
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:52 |
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precision posted:Definitely. But I also think it's the wrong way to go about things to say "Change the ending of this game that is already done." Or to say "Because one writer had a totally idiotic ending in mind for one of your games, I'm not buying your games anymore". To do that is offensive to all the people who worked so hard making the 99% of the game that is great. It's punishing the people who wrote characters like Garrus and Thane and Mordin, the people who voiced them, the artists who made the Citadel look so nice, the scenario writers for terrific things like Overlord or Kasumi's loyalty mission... it's punishing the hard work of all those people who very well might be working on BioWare's next game, which has a nonzero chance of being good, just because Casey Hudson gave free reign over the ending to a guy with a terrible idea. And I don't get that, and can't get behind it. And, to flip flop on this issue, it doesn't matter how good the grip was if the film's writer is an idiot.
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:54 |
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Scuzzywuffit posted:That press release, though...drat. "We know that a lot of the fans aren't happy with our ending, but we'd just like to remind you that this game has received several perfect reviews "Oh poo poo, really?! Welp. Guess I like it now."
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:56 |
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MrL_JaKiri posted:And, to flip flop on this issue, it doesn't matter how good the grip was if the film's writer is an idiot. Or, in this case, if they let the grip write the ending. 
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| # ? Apr 24, 2012 23:58 |
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precision posted:Definitely. But I also think it's the wrong way to go about things to say "Change the ending of this game that is already done." Or to say "Because one writer had a totally idiotic ending in mind for one of your games, I'm not buying your games anymore". To do that is offensive to all the people who worked so hard making the 99% of the game that is great. It's punishing the people who wrote characters like Garrus and Thane and Mordin, the people who voiced them, the artists who made the Citadel look so nice, the scenario writers for terrific things like Overlord or Kasumi's loyalty mission... it's punishing the hard work of all those people who very well might be working on BioWare's next game, which has a nonzero chance of being good, just because Casey Hudson gave free reign over the ending to a guy with a terrible idea. And I don't get that, and can't get behind it. Oh, I don't mean to suggest that this in any way justifies the fandom demanding that the ending be changed, and I wouldn't swear off the company forever, either. If they make more games set in the ME universe, I will probably buy them. There's a lot of fans acting like dicks about this, and Bioware is perfectly within their rights to not change the ending if that's what they want to do. All I'm saying is that that press release, in which they repeatedly drew attention to their glowing reviews, came off as a bit smug, and I'm not sure what they were thinking it would accomplish.
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 00:02 |
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JGBeagle posted:Welp, after just beating Mass Effect 3 I can say without a doubt that I won't buy another Bioware game again. After the shitstorm that was Dragon Age 2 and that extremely disappointing end, I won't give them another cent. Gammatron 64 posted:Hell, it's not even the fact that the ending is bad that burns me so much. 'Cause hey, people make mistakes. It's that Bioware has been having some really crappy business practices lately, like calling us idiots for calling them out on their dumbass ending, then deciding to halfheartedly 'elaborate' on it once they pissed off practically their whole fanbase and nearly killed their biggest IP. And stunts like charging $10 for day one DLC that's really important to the storyline. It's almost like Bioware wants to loose customers.
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 00:03 |
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precision posted:Definitely. But I also think it's the wrong way to go about things to say "Change the ending of this game that is already done." Or to say "Because one writer had a totally idiotic ending in mind for one of your games, I'm not buying your games anymore". To do that is offensive to all the people who worked so hard making the 99% of the game that is great. It's punishing the people who wrote characters like Garrus and Thane and Mordin, the people who voiced them, the artists who made the Citadel look so nice, the scenario writers for terrific things like Overlord or Kasumi's loyalty mission... it's punishing the hard work of all those people who very well might be working on BioWare's next game, which has a nonzero chance of being good, just because Casey Hudson gave free reign over the ending to a guy with a terrible idea. And I don't get that, and can't get behind it. I don't know, doesn't that effectively remove really the only way customers have of giving feedback to companies that they will actually listen to? If you don't like how a company is progressing then as a customer, you have to a)let them know what you don't like and b)give weight to your words by not buying (or saying you won't in the future). It's the 'don't like it, don't buy it'. Many people couldn't un-buy Mass Effect, so that's just been transferred one down. Now it's up to Bioware to listen and actually prove they've listened if they hope to keep getting money. And it sucks for the people who did do good work, yeah, but that's life sometimes. Do groupwork, and sometimes there's a weakest link who devalues the rest of the group. It sucks, but noone should have to support something they don't like just because it's linked to something they do. I wouldn't buy a car with faulty steering because the seats were really nice.
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 00:04 |
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edit: oops double post
precision fucked around with this message at Apr 25, 2012 around 00:11 |
| # ? Apr 25, 2012 00:05 |
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I find it a good rule of thumb to never read BioWare's press releases, except for pure comic value. Someone should compile all the Dragon Age 2 press releases into one magazine. It would fit quite nicely on the back of my toilet. Mazerunner posted:I don't know, doesn't that effectively remove really the only way customers have of giving feedback to companies that they will actually listen to? If you don't like how a company is progressing then as a customer, you have to a)let them know what you don't like and b)give weight to your words by not buying (or saying you won't in the future). I absolutely agree, my only point being that the very ending of this one game doesn't, to me, give any conclusive evidence of "how a company is progressing", especially given that by and large the writing in the rest of ME3 was a big improvement over DA2 and ME2. I know the ending of something is a big deal, but I think it's really important to keep in mind that the ending was by and large the product of one person, and whatever BioWare may be saying in their press releases, there is just no way they're planning on making a mistake like that again. I'm pretty sure that EA takes you out back and shoots you if you say anything less than "What we have done here is a triumph to rival the Hanging Gardens".
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 00:11 |
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Sombrerotron posted:nevertheless, it just might happen that one of their next titles will be a real cracker, and I don't believe you'd be doing yourself any favours by missing out on that simply because it happens to've been made by BioWare. This may be the case, but I'm no longer trust BioWare to put out well-polished games with both satisfying gameplay and sensible stories. For me, the ending of Mass Effect (along with the lackluster ios games, DA dlc, and DA2) has moved BioWare off my "buy games at launch" list to the "wait for reviews" list. Its doubly disappointing because I've been buying Bioware at launch since 1998, and its sad to see a drop-off in quality. I certainly hope they'll turn it around with DA3, but at this point I won't be pre-ordering anything (regardless of pre-order macguffin promises).
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 00:16 |
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I would love it if everyone would do what I do and refuse to pay for Collector's Editions (With Bonus Character and Guns!!!!) or any of that nonsense. That would be a great message to send: No, none of us are going to buy any of your games until we read some reviews and hear what our friends have to say. Seriously, just stop it already. unless it's a Shin Megami Tensei game
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 00:20 |
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El Tortuga posted:Holy poo poo, you guys. This thread is tearing itself apart. Let's just relax and have a look at this. Why post old fan art when you have this? 
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 00:33 |
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That... that's beautiful. No really, that's great. 
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 00:39 |
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precision posted:
Sorry, should have made the connection more obvious. Watch this TED talk for more detail: http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kah..._vs_memory.html
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 00:41 |
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Stickman posted:This may be the case, but I'm no longer trust BioWare to put out well-polished games with both satisfying gameplay and sensible stories. For me, the ending of Mass Effect (along with the lackluster ios games, DA dlc, and DA2) has moved BioWare off my "buy games at launch" list to the "wait for reviews" list.
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 00:44 |
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The MSJ posted:Why post old fan art when you have this? This is now the true ending and nothing can convince me otherwise.
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 00:53 |
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Zikan posted:This is now the true ending and nothing can convince me otherwise. Could do with more Beach Party Bar-B-Q, complete with Garrus and Wrex having a volleyball match. But other than that, great.
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 01:01 |
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The MSJ posted:Is Tali marrying Legion or another Geth?
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 01:03 |
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I hope Turians are baby pink and slightly haired as infants, otherwise that Turian-Human hybrid is an abomination in the eyes of all men.
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 01:22 |
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It's a Turian-human Hybrid, look at them N7 diapers. quote:Is Tali marrying Legion or another Geth? Probably another geth, seeing as Legion is a Jedi ghost. She probably built it herself, like a fully-aware love doll. Isn't it cute?
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 01:29 |
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Sombrerotron posted:That's perfectly fine and sensible, but then, waiting to see how a BW title turns out as you intend to do is a far cry from deciding never to buy one of their games again at all, regardless of quality. That's true, but my guess is that most people deciding to never buy another Bioware game will end up doing the same thing. Mostly, its just disappointing to take a company off my "immediate buy" list - there's so few on there to begin with (my developer list is Blizzard, Relic, Valve,
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 01:44 |
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Here's the thing that's being missed - people aren't refusing to buy more Bioware content out of spite. It's not a boycott. It's not a "WELL I'LL SHOW YOU". It's simply...that ending kills the desire. The motivation. I don't want to get revenge on Bioware. I just simply...have no desire to play more single player content, like a Take Back Omega DLC, after that ending. It feels pointless. Why would I want to go save Omega with Aria, right now? So I can strand her there as she starves to death after Shep blows up the galaxy? It's the same thing for any future prequels. Why bother? I know that any triumphs in those games are cut short because Shep eventually undoes everything. And if they make sequels in a ruined, wasteland galaxy? Not interested in that. It's not the setting I fell in love with, with Mass Effect. I wouldn't recognize that as Mass Effect, so I just wouldn't be interested. So what about future, non Mass Effect titles? Why refuse to buy those, when the ending of ME shouldn't have an effect on those? Well, in that case, it's that I can't trust that Bioware isn't going to burn me again. I simply do not want to go through this again. I've been too invested in ME to take being burned like that, and I can't let myself get this invested in another series again if I can't trust that I'm not just gonna get burned at the end again. It's the exact same reason I don't have any desire to watch another tv series by the Lost writers. I don't wish them any particular harm or anything, Lost just was way too disappointing and I don't trust that they could write another series that'd be worth getting that invested into. I will gladly buy more Bioware products if they can show that I can trust them not to burn me like this - if the ending DLC fixes things. Because, again, I don't want to see them crash and burn. I just don't want to get burned, myself!
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 01:57 |
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Man... so I decided to try and play through ME1 again as a girl sentinel. It's been years since I played this, but I decided to go straight to the Liara mission after getting it, and I'm getting my rear end whooped. Am I too underleveled and do I need to grind out some more quests before trying to rescue Liara? I think so, because Garrus and Wrex are getting their poo poo kicked in, too. Is sentinel a bad class? I'm probably just really bad at this game. I don't remember it ever being hard, though. Then again I played soldier the first time. Man, the gameplay in ME2 and 3 is just so much better than this. Half the time Shepard doesn't even want to go behind cover.
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 01:58 |
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Gammatron 64 posted:Man... so I decided to try and play through ME1 again as a girl sentinel. It's been years since I played this, but I decided to go straight to the Liara mission after getting it, and I'm getting my rear end whooped. Am I too underleveled and do I need to grind out some more quests before trying to rescue Liara? I think so, because Garrus and Wrex are getting their poo poo kicked in, too. Is sentinel a bad class? What difficulty are you on? Also Therum is the hardest section in the game. So, consider that.
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 02:02 |
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Aristobulus posted:What difficulty are you on? Also Therum is the hardest section in the game. So, consider that. Normal, about to be a big baby and turn it down to casual, though. I had no idea it was the hardest part in the game. Well that makes sense. It's been a few years, but IIRC I rescued Liara somewhat later in the game near the halfway point.
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 02:06 |
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Aristobulus posted:So what about future, non Mass Effect titles? Why refuse to buy those, when the ending of ME shouldn't have an effect on those? Well, in that case, it's that I can't trust that Bioware isn't going to burn me again. I simply do not want to go through this again. I've been too invested in ME to take being burned like that, and I can't let myself get this invested in another series again if I can't trust that I'm not just gonna get burned at the end again. The thing about this is that the end of the game appears to have been written by an isolated person, without the input of the rest of the team, and like somebody else was saying, no way in hell are they going to make that mistake again after what's just happened here. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't feel right letting this one asshat destroy my trust in the rest of the people that made a drat good series. I can certainly wait for reviews to make sure that they don't do something like this again, but I don't want to refuse to even consider getting invested in something that the rest of these people made because of one person's failure. Edit: I'm not trying to say that your viewpoint is wrong or anything, and I understand if you feel that way. This is purely my own outlook. Scuzzywuffit fucked around with this message at Apr 25, 2012 around 02:11 |
| # ? Apr 25, 2012 02:09 |
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| # ? May 22, 2013 12:21 |
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Gammatron 64 posted:Normal, about to be a big baby and turn it down to casual, though. I ALWAYS turn that poo poo down to casual when I get to that part. Of course, I always do it first where it's even harder because you're not a BIOTIC GOD yet. So even more reason to turn it to casual.
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| # ? Apr 25, 2012 02:09 |
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