Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang
Maybe in Nu-Effect we'll be the rear end in a top hat expansionist civilization that conquer less-advanced species and put them in reservations - you know, for their own good, so that they don't nuke themselves into oblivion. That'd be a change of approach to video game stories, and more credible to boot.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

Furism posted:

Maybe in Nu-Effect we'll be the rear end in a top hat expansionist civilization that conquer less-advanced species and put them in reservations - you know, for their own good, so that they don't nuke themselves into oblivion. That'd be a change of approach to video game stories, and more credible to boot.

I want to play as a Krogan. Please allow me this small consideration, Bioware.

Pattonesque
Jul 15, 2004
johnny jesus and the infield fly rule

Furism posted:

Maybe in Nu-Effect we'll be the rear end in a top hat expansionist civilization that conquer less-advanced species and put them in reservations - you know, for their own good, so that they don't nuke themselves into oblivion. That'd be a change of approach to video game stories, and more credible to boot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Not_Taken_(short_story)

Aliens invade Earth, the military confronts them, aliens turn out to have weapons no more advanced than muskets because the secret of FTL is really easy but we happened to miss it for whatever reason. Captured aliens realize belatedly that now humans (who have rockets and fighter jets and machine guns) will become the dominant species.

Pattonesque fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Feb 11, 2016

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun

Rhjamiz posted:

Except the galaxy was never in any danger; AI as galaxy-bleach is never established as a threat until the last 15 minutes. The Geth are just spooky boogeymen that do their own thing, and the Prothean literally already fought their AI war and won. We have no reason to think it's a Major Problem.

Intergenerational conflict is established as far back as Mass Effect 1, and solidifies into a prominent theme in the sequel. It's the problem of Entropy made manifest.

quote:

The reason why we "care" about a few billion tortured dudes isn't because of any concern for the current galaxy per se, but because it's unnecessary. It's completely gratuitous in a way that implies malicious intent. If you actually didn't give a poo poo about the galaxy because all of Organic Existence hung in the balance, you still wouldn't go out of your way to be a Huge Jerk about it.

It's trying to pass it off as Machine Efficiency when it's actually Mustache-Twirling.

Again, right now your body is destroying thousands of foreign microbes. Heat, acid, biochemicals, hunter-killer cells - your body is a war. Why are you so unnecessarily cruel to these lesser lifeforms? Can't you just, you know, imprison them in some cyst and later humanely secrete them somewhere they can live out their lives in peace?

(That would be nicer, wouldn't it? But your failure to do so doesn't make you "malicious" and it doesn't mean you don't care about life in the abstract. It's the natural extension of Sovereign's speech on Virmire that everyone loves so much - Sovereign doesn't care in the slightest about Shepard because, as far as it is concerned, you need to be a gestalt intellect composed of billions of minds in a biomechanical goo to be a person. Just as you'd say you need a few trillion neurons wired up in a particular way to be a person.)

e: if you're actually a committed vegan and pacifist I will be very impressed

Lt. Danger fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Feb 11, 2016

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

Lt. Danger posted:

Intergenerational conflict is established as far back as Mass Effect 1, and solidifies into a prominent theme in the sequel. It's the problem of Entropy made manifest.

Sure, could be you could link them thematically. Except subtext and text are not interchangeable. The narrative exists regardless of its underlying themes, and for a story to be good, it needs to be consistent. Pretending you can suddenly invent a narrative convenience because it fits your previously established theme and pass it off as good or even desirable despite the fact that it comes out of a narrative left field (worse still, one already resolved) is nonsense. They don't get a pass just because they managed to cobble together a somewhat loosely related theme. They hosed up the narrative. It's garbage.

If you write a book with a strong, consistent theme but a narrative that is a contradictory mess, then I'm sorry, but you've written a lovely book.

Lt. Danger posted:

Again, right now your body is destroying thousands of foreign microbes. Heat, acid, biochemicals, hunter-killer cells - your body is a war. Why are you so unnecessarily cruel to these lesser lifeforms? Can't you just, you know, imprison them in some cyst and later humanely secrete them somewhere they can live out their lives in peace?

(That would be nicer, wouldn't it? But your failure to do so doesn't make you "malicious" and it doesn't mean you don't care about life in the abstract. It's the natural extension of Sovereign's speech on Virmire that everyone loves so much - Sovereign doesn't care in the slightest about Shepard because, as far as it is concerned, you need to be a gestalt intellect composed of billions of minds in a biomechanical goo to be a person. Just as you'd say you need a few trillion neurons wired up in a particular way to be a person.)

e: if you're actually a committed vegan and pacifist I will be very impressed

Irrelevant for a number of reasons. Sure, it's a war. But I didn't invite them. I was here first. Reapers can get the gently caress out. Secondly, I cannot control my body to such a degree. If I could, would I peacefully expel foreign invaders? Sure, maybe. I don't know, it isn't within my power to do so.

The Reapers aren't mindless machines on a galactic clock. They make the choice to be evil assholes.

You seem to think that I think that callous and malicious are the same, given your example. I don't. The Reapers aren't callous or efficient; they hold Organic life in extreme contempt, and go out of their way to make sure we suffer.

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang

Pattonesque posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Not_Taken_(short_story)

Aliens invade Earth, the military confronts them, aliens turn out to have weapons no more advanced than muskets because the secret of FTL is really easy but we happened to miss it for whatever reason. Captured aliens realize belatedly that now humans (who have rockets and fighter jets and machine guns) will become the dominant species.

Ah well, one more book added to the reading list, thanks!

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun

Rhjamiz posted:

Sure, could be you could link them thematically. Except subtext and text are not interchangeable. The narrative exists regardless of its underlying themes, and for a story to be good, it needs to be consistent. Pretending you can suddenly invent a narrative convenience because it fits your previously established theme and pass it off as good or even desirable despite the fact that it comes out of a narrative left field (worse still, one already resolved) is nonsense. They don't get a pass just because they managed to cobble together a somewhat loosely related theme. They hosed up the narrative. It's garbage.

If you write a book with a strong, consistent theme but a narrative that is a contradictory mess, then I'm sorry, but you've written a lovely book.

If the protheans solved organic-synthetic conflict, why are there heretic geth, the casino AI, rebellions on Luna?

Obviously, they didn't. Intergenerational conflict (there is no meaningful difference between organic and synthetic, save they are different generations) still exists. Vendetta's pattern dooms the galaxy to a series of escalating conflicts, so the Reapers act as a safety valve. Rannoch is the inconsistent element, not the rule.

quote:

Irrelevant for a number of reasons. Sure, it's a war. But I didn't invite them. I was here first. Reapers can get the gently caress out. Secondly, I cannot control my body to such a degree. If I could, would I peacefully expel foreign invaders? Sure, maybe. I don't know, it isn't within my power to do so.

The Reapers aren't mindless machines on a galactic clock. They make the choice to be evil assholes.

You seem to think that I think that callous and malicious are the same, given your example. I don't. The Reapers aren't callous or efficient; they hold Organic life in extreme contempt, and go out of their way to make sure we suffer.

Actually, the Reapers were here first. And the Reapers cannot simply make everyone lie down and go to sleep either.

The Reapers don't hold organic life in contempt - how could they? They are organic life. But they think the units of organic life are species, rather than individuals - just as you think the units of your life is your individual self, rather than the cells that constitute you. It's as cruel for a Reaper to transform a person into a husk as it is for you to murder your own cells to stop an infection.

Again, you're not supposed to agree with this ("What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?"). But it's not inconsistent writing.

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang

Lt. Danger posted:

If the protheans solved organic-synthetic conflict, why are there heretic geth, the casino AI, rebellions on Luna?

Because their solution died with them? Much like we don't know how to make Damascus Steel or Roman Mortar any more, or can't figure out how the Egyptians built the Pyramids (although for that last example it's less relevant because we found better ways to build things).

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

Lt. Danger posted:

If the protheans solved organic-synthetic conflict, why are there heretic geth, the casino AI, rebellions on Luna?

Obviously, they didn't. Intergenerational conflict (there is no meaningful difference between organic and synthetic, save they are different generations) still exists. Vendetta's pattern dooms the galaxy to a series of escalating conflicts, so the Reapers act as a safety valve. Rannoch is the inconsistent element, not the rule.

Heretic Geth; Reapers. The Luna VI; Reaper Tech if I remember right. The Casino AI; I have no diea I don't remember it. Funny how two out of those three were the direct result of Reapers loving poo poo up.

Rannoch is not the exception. Rannoch and Prothean AI rebellion are our only examples on a large scale; both are resolved in the Organics favor. Both only come about thanks to Reapers loving poo poo up like the assholes they are.

You're nitpicking at this point. Inter-generational Conflict is the theme, but it isn't the plot. The plot is that rear end in a top hat Robots from space are loving poo poo up. Plot is more important than theme. They hosed up the plot.

Lt. Danger posted:

The Reapers don't hold organic life in contempt - how could they? They are organic life. But they think the units of organic life are species, rather than individuals - just as you think the units of your life is your individual self, rather than the cells that constitute you. It's as cruel for a Reaper to transform a person into a husk as it is for you to murder your own cells to stop an infection.

"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything."

"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."

I dunno man, sounds like contempt to me. Evil rear end in a top hat robots.

Lt. Danger posted:

Again, you're not supposed to agree with this ("What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?"). But it's not inconsistent writing.

It's inconsistent because we're told at the end that they are callous, while throughout the games they have been depicted as malicious. I don't give two shits if I agree with them or not.

Pattonesque
Jul 15, 2004
johnny jesus and the infield fly rule
you must destroy the Reapers Shepard

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

Pattonesque posted:

you must destroy the Reapers Shepard

The only true ending is the Blue one, because the Galaxy has clearly proven that it cannot get along without Shepard personally solving every problem. Ergo, giant robot spacemom

Cross-Section
Mar 18, 2009

Geostomp posted:

The lead writer left halfway through ME2, partially explaining why they games never seemed to agree on what the Reapers were supposed to be doing. It also explains why all the hints about dark energy were thrown out in ME2, then suddenly dropped: either the remaining writers didn't understand the concept or they thought the audience was too stupid to do so.

Wishful thinking, but I totally would dig it if Bioware salvaged this dropped plot thread for Andromeda. Turns out dark energy's an essential component for extra-galactic travel, that's why a bunch of corporations were researching it! :haw: (though obviously this doesn't explain what the hell's up with Haestrom's sun, but you know, retconning)

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun

Rhjamiz posted:

Heretic Geth; Reapers. The Luna VI; Reaper Tech if I remember right. The Casino AI; I have no diea I don't remember it. Funny how two out of those three were the direct result of Reapers loving poo poo up.

No, EDI only got Reaper tech after Cerberus salvaged her from Luna and Sovereign from the Citadel.

The heretic geth already disagreed with the true geth. "One is less than two, two is less than three", remember?

quote:

You're nitpicking at this point. Inter-generational Conflict is the theme, but it isn't the plot. The plot is that rear end in a top hat Robots from space are loving poo poo up. Plot is more important than theme. They hosed up the plot.

The Reapers aren't robots, they are explicitly the liquidised remains of past generations of galactic inhabitants. The plot is the dead of past cycles are literally rising up to turn us into them; they have stolen our future because they fear it will be the end of us and them.

quote:

"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything."

"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."

I dunno man, sounds like contempt to me. Evil rear end in a top hat robots.

Sounds like an accurate description of organic life.

quote:

It's inconsistent because we're told at the end that they are callous, while throughout the games they have been depicted as malicious. I don't give two shits if I agree with them or not.

You haven't addressed anything I've said. :(

Lt. Danger fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Feb 11, 2016

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

Lt. Danger posted:

The heretic geth already disagreed with the true geth. "One is less than two, two is less than three", remember?

They were heretics explicitly because they followed the Reaper, dude.

Lt. Danger posted:

The Reapers aren't robots, they are explicitly the liquidised remains of past generations of galactic inhabitants. The plot is the dead of past cycles are literally rising up to turn us into them; they have stolen our future because they fear it will be the end of us and them.

Whether or not the Reapers are robots is immaterial. So what exactly does all that have to do with protecting the Galaxy from an Inevitable Synthetic War? poo poo all.

Lt. Danger posted:

Sounds like an accurate description of organic life.

By someone who holds organic life in contempt, yes. Which is my point. The Reapers spend all three games telling us that organic life is beneath them, that organic life is vermin. That is the literal definition of "contempt", dude.

Lt. Danger posted:

You haven't addressed anything I've said.

Saying that does not make it so. I have already told you that Theme is not Plot and Plot is not Theme, they are not interchangeable. It means poo poo all if the theme was hinted at in the first game if they failed for two whole games to set up the plot-point of the apparently EXTREME threat that Synthetics posed to the existence of Organic Life. Extreme enough that mass genocide is apparently the only answer. The only two instances we are shown where Synthetics turn genocidal, it is because Reapers are directly responsible.

Edit: The Reapers are described as a machine race of synthetic-organic ships. Furthermore, they are being explicitly controlled by the Catalyst, an AI. They're robots. They're big dumb robot puppets, regardless of how much meat you shove in them.

Editedit: Like, what point do you think I am not addressing? So far as I can tell I've addressed all them.

Rhjamiz fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Feb 11, 2016

TheCenturion
May 3, 2013
HI I LIKE TO GIVE ADVICE ON RELATIONSHIPS

Pattonesque posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Not_Taken_(short_story)

Aliens invade Earth, the military confronts them, aliens turn out to have weapons no more advanced than muskets because the secret of FTL is really easy but we happened to miss it for whatever reason. Captured aliens realize belatedly that now humans (who have rockets and fighter jets and machine guns) will become the dominant species.

Try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwar_series Harry Turtledove's Worldwar and Colonzation series.

Aliens probe the earth, see medieval stuff, cackle gleefully at invading with tanks and fighter jets, and roll on over to our neighbourhood.

Unfortunately, the aliens advance really REALLY slowly, the only other two races they've encountered also do, so they figure 'how much can humans advance in 800 earth years ? Plenty of time to plan and stockpile' They then show up smack in the middle of WW2, with the colonization fleet already following them in cryosleep ships, due to arrive in twenty of the earth years.

Second series is set twenty years later, when the colonization fleet arrives. Last book is set a bit after that, when Humans decide to pay the alien's homeworld a visit in return.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Rhjamiz posted:

Editedit: Like, what point do you think I am not addressing? So far as I can tell I've addressed all them.

It's Lt Danger, he's really married to the idea of ME3's plot being deep and good. His LP Thread was the same way.

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009
I only played 3 and saw the Krogan as a bigger threat than the Geth. The arbitrary inorganic/organic conflict they tacked on at the was really stupid and flew in the face of everything in the game (gently caress the Quarians).

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

Tezcatlipoca posted:

I only played 3 and saw the Krogan as a bigger threat than the Geth. The arbitrary inorganic/organic conflict they tacked on at the was really stupid and flew in the face of everything in the game (gently caress the Quarians).

Yeah, the Krogan are definitely going to overtake the whole galaxy by simple virtue of out-breeding everyone. I still cured them, though.

The Quarians were 100% bigoted assholes but I still mediated a truce rather than gently caress them over. They're already space romani; punishment enough I guess? :v:

I also have never bought the whole Quarian/Geth conflict as fitting under the "Intergenerational" motif. It's very clearly an issue of "What Measure is a Man?" and "loving Slavery". Though as always in science fiction, it's very blatantly obvious to the reader that yes, the robots are, in fact, people and enslaving them as property is loving atrocious. Why everyone seems to be genre-blind to this I have no idea.

Tezcatlipoca
Sep 18, 2009

Rhjamiz posted:

The Quarians were 100% bigoted assholes but I still mediated a truce rather than gently caress them over. They're already space romani; punishment enough I guess? :v:

I couldn't do that without playing the other games and I am definitely not going to do that when I can have more fun playing multiplayer.

wookieepelt
Jul 23, 2009

Kurieg posted:

It's Lt Danger, he's really married to the idea of ME3's plot being deep and good. His LP Thread was the same way.

He's not all wrong though. The Reaper motives seem silly to us short lived organic things, Harbinger basically said they are our salvation and even star kid talks about this. Even if you don't agree with Reaper motivation, they are consistent throughout the series.

As I've stated earlier, it would have been better if the writers gave more thought to the ending, but they didn't. The idea that this cycle was different only manifested itself in the choice at the end of which color ending you got. The way they should have dealt with all of the holes in their writing is by having the player point them out as proof the Reapers are wrong and having star kid accept that they might need to observe this cycle further. It's a huge cop out, but it would have actually felt like there was an ending in place.

Alas, it's too late and we're left with a great series that fell apart in the last half hour. Kai Leng excluded. gently caress that guy.

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

wookieepelt posted:

He's not all wrong though. The Reaper motives seem silly to us short lived organic things, Harbinger basically said they are our salvation and even star kid talks about this. Even if you don't agree with Reaper motivation, they are consistent throughout the series.

It's not consistent though?

ME1: Sovereign displays contempt for organics, talks about harvesting civilizations for their resources/technology.

ME2: Harbinger calls organics vermin, evaluates them based on how good they would be as slave stock for the Reapers and is otherwise dismissive, talks about how Reapers are human's(?) Ascension; obviously this means the baby Reaper, and supposedly this means a gestalt consciousness, but I have doubts that even a partially formed gestalt consciousness made up of X number of humans would suddenly and wordlessly (I guess) decide that they are for sure on board with this genocide plan by attacking Shepard. Basically what I am saying is that I don't buy that "higher evolution" crap and am pretty sure that the Reapers are just using organics for wetware; nothing of the species or the minds that made it up survives in a meaningful way. But who knows.

ME3: "Whoa hey now buddy we're just doing this for your own good". The Reaper on Rannoch claims they are our salvation, refuses to elaborate. Star Kid claims it's to protect life from Inevtiable Synthetic Genocide and make way for new species, but that would mean having some form of respect for Species as distinct entities, a respect not demonstrated in any manner previously. All previous Reaper encounters consisted of judging organics solely on how useful they would be to Reapers. No consideration is given to their merit as distinct/unique entities.

Making room for new species would imply they actually gave a poo poo about individual species; except they demonstrably do not.

Rhjamiz fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Feb 11, 2016

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'
The Reapers are at least robotic enough that the Prothean beacons couldn't work on them, having been designed to work only on organic minds as a security measure against the Reapers.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Rhjamiz posted:

Heretic Geth; Reapers. The Luna VI; Reaper Tech if I remember right. The Casino AI; I have no diea I don't remember it. Funny how two out of those three were the direct result of Reapers loving poo poo up.
Whether or not the Reapers were behind it all (though in fact, they weren't as far as the Luna VI-turned-AI and unnamed AI stealing money from the casino are concerned), or even whether creators and creations must inherently grow at odds with one another, is beside the point I think. The real issue is that organic species can't hope to keep up the pace with synthetic species/civilisations. Sooner or later, if left to develop unchecked, the latter will outstrip organics in every respect. I believe it is this fact that - within the ME universe, anyway - is the inherent cause of conflict between organics and synthetics. It's not even necessarily the synthetics who'll turn on the organics, although they can't be relied upon to refrain from completely wiping out any aggressors simply because they're technologically superior and don't need to do so in order to survive. Yes, the geth let the quarians go, but does that really suffice to conclude that AI can be trusted never to finish the job? The natural outcome of artificial beings left to freely develop is a highly unbalanced distribution of power, and it seems to me that the risk arising from that outweighs all else within the Catalyst's programming/reasoning.

Also, let's not forget that the reason the Catalyst was constructed in the first place is that the Leviathans actually noticed their thrall species who happily created synthetics had a habit of subsequently being eradicated by their electronic babies.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Sombrerotron posted:

Whether or not the Reapers were behind it all (though in fact, they weren't as far as the Luna VI-turned-AI and unnamed AI stealing money from the casino are concerned), or even whether creators and creations must inherently grow at odds with one another, is beside the point I think. The real issue is that organic species can't hope to keep up the pace with synthetic species/civilisations. Sooner or later, if left to develop unchecked, the latter will outstrip organics in every respect. I believe it is this fact that - within the ME universe, anyway - is the inherent cause of conflict between organics and synthetics. It's not even necessarily the synthetics who'll turn on the organics, although they can't be relied upon to refrain from completely wiping out any aggressors simply because they're technologically superior and don't need to do so in order to survive. Yes, the geth let the quarians go, but does that really suffice to conclude that AI can be trusted never to finish the job? The natural outcome of artificial beings left to freely develop is a highly unbalanced distribution of power, and it seems to me that the risk arising from that outweighs all else within the Catalyst's programming/reasoning.

Also, let's not forget that the reason the Catalyst was constructed in the first place is that the Leviathans actually noticed their thrall species who happily created synthetics had a habit of subsequently being eradicated by their electronic babies.

The ol' appeal to the DLC argument.

RenegadeStyle1
Jun 7, 2005

Baby Come Back
I agree that the reapers aren't benevolent and the writers dropped the ball on the whole reapers are just doing machine thing. I think you are wrong that the Geth thing should prove to the Reapers that they are wrong though. The reapers don't really have to be right, they can still be wrong but believe that their way is the best way and not believe they are wrong.

Crappy Jack
Nov 21, 2005

We got some serious shit to discuss.

RenegadeStyle1 posted:

I agree that the reapers aren't benevolent and the writers dropped the ball on the whole reapers are just doing machine thing. I think you are wrong that the Geth thing should prove to the Reapers that they are wrong though. The reapers don't really have to be right, they can still be wrong but believe that their way is the best way and not believe they are wrong.

Well, the reason that gets bandied around is because it's the sort of thing Shepard would totally do.

"NO ONE COULD POSSIBLY DO ________"

"Hi, I'm Commander Shepard, and I totally just did that thing"

"OH NO COMMANDER SHEPARD DID THE THING WE ARE DEFEATED".

Like, the whole series is about Commander Player Insert doing the impossible. You end the genophage. You kill a Reaper. You literally single-handedly convince the entire galaxy to work together for a common goal, even the weird spider alien things that were almost extinct. Like, the whole franchise is about being so awesome that you prove all the naysayers wrong. And then the series ends with a naysayer telling Shepard they're wrong, and Shepard's all "Yeah, that's pretty unassailable logic, time to do whatever this alien hologram thing says."

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Milky Moor posted:

The ol' appeal to the DLC argument.
That the last bit is communicated through DLC doesn't mean it's not part of the flippin' game.

I'll concede that the Catalyst originally just talks about the created always rebelling against their creators (which, incidentally, is supported thoroughly by what we've seen in all three games), but its argument that synthetics will always destroy organics is clearly based on the premise that, in the long run, organics just can't compete with AI. Maybe that doesn't always have to end in genocide, and the Catalyst may be accurately described as an insane/utterly sociopathic computer god, but the odds definitely seem stacked against organic life. And if one actually generally hostile synthetic species should emerge, and come out on top against its organic peers, what hope would there be for any organic civilisations in the galaxy?

RenegadeStyle1 posted:

I agree that the reapers aren't benevolent and the writers dropped the ball on the whole reapers are just doing machine thing. I think you are wrong that the Geth thing should prove to the Reapers that they are wrong though. The reapers don't really have to be right, they can still be wrong but believe that their way is the best way and not believe they are wrong.
I'd rather have a crazy digital deity irreversibly set in its mysterious/genocidal ways than a crazy digital deity that is suddenly persuaded that it's been getting it completely wrong all these millions of years just because some hairless ape happened to walk by and say "hey actually I managed a few hours ago to convince these space gypsies and space robots not to completely murder each other and they haven't yet started killing each other en masse again, SO THERE".

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:
The argument as to whether organic species can keep up with technological species is moot as the solution to the grand problem is cybernetic post-humanism(or post-organic-organismism?) and the fact is that all of the current races in some way use technology to assist or supplant their biological functions. All biotics use implants. the Volus need their encounter suits to interact with the universe as a whole. If the geth were actually more war-like you can bet that Council and Quarian tech would have more than kept up. The only reason they posed a threat in 3 was because they had a sudden massive leap forward in the form of Reaper Tech.

If the theme was "The created will always rise up against the creator" then I would have expected some biological created races. Did no-one uplift dogs to sentience? Biologically modify their own species into a superior child race? Even Star Trek did that, they made an entire loving movie about it.

The Reapers are not benevolent because they were not created to be good or righteous, they were created by a race of mind controlling squids who were afraid of their own obsolecense. If they actually cared about organic life why weren't they stopping people from developing nuclear weapons? Or deflecting asteroids from impacting garden worlds? Or stopping war-like species from obliterating lesser ones? A far better justification for the Leviathans to have would have been fear of an actual benevolent synthetic race. Because they wouldn't have been able to control them and they sure as gently caress would have killed the evil squids mind controlling their friends.


Sombrerotron posted:

That the last bit is communicated through DLC doesn't mean it's not part of the flippin' game.

I'll concede that the Catalyst originally just talks about the created always rebelling against their creators (which, incidentally, is supported thoroughly by what we've seen in all three games), but its argument that synthetics will always destroy organics is clearly based on the premise that, in the long run, organics just can't compete with AI. Maybe that doesn't always have to end in genocide, and the Catalyst may be accurately described as an insane/utterly sociopathic computer god, but the odds definitely seem stacked against organic life. And if one actually generally hostile synthetic species should emerge, and come out on top against its organic peers, what hope would there be for any organic civilisations in the galaxy?
and what happens if that race is Organic? Is one genocidal organic race better than one genocidal synthetic race? Or a plurality of synthetic races?

quote:

I'd rather have a crazy digital deity irreversibly set in its mysterious/genocidal ways than a crazy digital deity that is suddenly persuaded that it's been getting it completely wrong all these millions of years just because some hairless ape happened to walk by and say "hey actually I managed a few hours ago to convince these space gypsies and space robots not to completely murder each other and they haven't yet started killing each other en masse again, SO THERE".

That's fine but having us instantly aquesce to crazy machine gods demands isn't very satisfying either. The entire point of Mass Effect has been imposing your ideology on the universe through strength of will and superior firepower, having it suddenly turn into "Well no you can't actually punch your way out of this one do what the god says." is very unsatisfying.

Pops Mgee
Aug 20, 2009

People all over the world,
Join Hands,
Start the Love Train!
They should have had beating the Reapers conventionally be an option. Keep the other colored endings just make the refuse option have a possibility of working if your assets are crazy high. Maybe a couple races get wiped if they're high but not perfect and keep the Liara beacon ending if your assets suck. The fact that there wasn't a "I'm Commander Shephard, I came back from the dead, I cured the genophage, and I'm going to kill all the Reapers" option is a travesty.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

Kurieg posted:

The argument as to whether organic species can keep up with technological species is moot as the solution to the grand problem is cybernetic post-humanism(or post-organic-organismism?) and the fact is that all of the current races in some way use technology to assist or supplant their biological functions. All biotics use implants. the Volus need their encounter suits to interact with the universe as a whole. If the geth were actually more war-like you can bet that Council and Quarian tech would have more than kept up. The only reason they posed a threat in 3 was because they had a sudden massive leap forward in the form of Reaper Tech.
Unless you're prepared to go whole-hog on transorganic existence and upload everyone's minds into a computer - at which point it's basically the end of the organic species, and synthetic life has effectively won - there's only so far you can take cybernetics. Besides, even with fancy upgrades, organic individuals would still be organic individuals and therefore fundamentally limited in tons of ways that a species like the geth, who can just bundle themselves in ever larger numbers and in ever larger computers/servers to exponentially increase their abilities, are not.

quote:

If the theme was "The created will always rise up against the creator" then I would have expected some biological created races. Did no-one uplift dogs to sentience? Biologically modify their own species into a superior child race? Even Star Trek did that, they made an entire loving movie about it.
Arguably, the krogan qualify as creations that turned on their creators. To some extent, the same applies to the rachni in ME1.

quote:

and what happens if that race is Organic? Is one genocidal organic race better than one genocidal synthetic race? Or a plurality of synthetic races?
Fair point, but the Catalyst was not created to solve that eventuality. In fact, seeing as the Leviathans were fully in control at the time, I imagine the absolute dominance of one organic species was specifically not considered to be an issue. Apart from that, it could be argued that synthetics are likelier to reach the stage of supreme, unalterable dominance than organics, and that the odds of organic civilisations lasting indefinitely are considerably smaller than for synthetics (even without Reaper interference).

quote:

That's fine but having us instantly aquesce to crazy machine gods demands isn't very satisfying either. The entire point of Mass Effect has been imposing your ideology on the universe through strength of will and superior firepower, having it suddenly turn into "Well no you can't actually punch your way out of this one do what the god says." is very unsatisfying.
It's strange that you can't even bring up the subject, and admittedly it's a bit of a downer that this is one thing Shepard just can't resolve with a red or blue dialogue option, but I'd rather have this than such a monumentally lame resolution as "actually, you're wrong" followed by "good heavens you're right". Besides, you can still stick it to the Catalyst by blowing everything up and hoping for the best. It's not [right hook] I suppose, but still - Reapers blow up and the game ends and you've won. Congratulation.

Tumblr of scotch
Mar 13, 2006

Please, don't be my neighbor.
Personally, I think Shepard making peace between the Quarians and the Geth probably wouldn't have been enough to convince the Catalyst/Reapers that peace between organics and synthetics is possible. They've been around a long time, remember, and they've probably seen short term peace negotiated before. The question is if the peace is actually sustainable, and if so, for how long.

What I think should've been done is that if you have enough war score and negotiated a peace, then you should be able to just ask for, say, a couple centuries of reprieve to at least see if it can last.

e: This would also be a decent setup for a sequel down the line.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Sombrerotron posted:

That the last bit is communicated through DLC doesn't mean it's not part of the flippin' game.

I, too, believe that we should draw evidence for the base game from something released afterwards with the sole intention of plugging up their ridiculous plot holes. :)

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun

Rhjamiz posted:

They were heretics explicitly because they followed the Reaper, dude.

The division was before that - a difference in processing. The quibble I'm making here is you're implying the Reapers made the heretic geth bad through indoctrination, and they would be good otherwise. I think what Legion says in ME2 implies the geth were already divided, and Sovereign just made that division explicit.

quote:

Whether or not the Reapers are robots is immaterial. So what exactly does all that have to do with protecting the Galaxy from an Inevitable Synthetic War? poo poo all.

You said they were robots.

Like, I was kinda joking before, but this is what I mean. You say the plot is about the Reapers being evil robots, I say "actually, they're not robots", you say it doesn't matter if they're robots :confused:. Are they or aren't they, and does it matter or not?

With regards to Sovereign, you're begging the question. The whole point of that speech is Sovereign doesn't care about individuals - it barely cares that you're not Saren. It definitely thinks you're lesser than it, but that's not the same as malicious intent - unless, again, you actively harbour ill will to the microbes around you right now.

Kurieg posted:

If the theme was "The created will always rise up against the creator" then I would have expected some biological created races. Did no-one uplift dogs to sentience? Biologically modify their own species into a superior child race? Even Star Trek did that, they made an entire loving movie about it.

The krogan, the asari, the facility on Sur'kesh, Miranda Lawson. For more figurative/non-technological versions: the Shadow Broker, every alien party member in ME1, every non-DLC party member in ME2.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Lt. Danger posted:

The division was before that - a difference in processing. The quibble I'm making here is you're implying the Reapers made the heretic geth bad through indoctrination, and they would be good otherwise. I think what Legion says in ME2 implies the geth were already divided, and Sovereign just made that division explicit.

Nah.

"Approximately three centuries after the Morning War, the geth were approached by the Reaper Nazara, also called Sovereign. It offered them technology that would aid them in achieving their goal, in exchange for their assistance in capturing the Citadel and letting the Reaper invasion begin. The majority of the geth dismissed the offer, deeming it better to accomplish their goal with their own technology rather than be dependent on another race's technology. These geth discarded what they called the "superstitious title" of the Reapers, and simply called them the Old Machines.

A small percentage of geth, however, accepted the Reaper's help. Henceforth these geth were referred to by the mainstream geth as "heretics". They were allowed to peacefully leave the main geth network, and aid Nazara and its turian agent, Saren Arterius. The heretics came to revere Nazara as a god, the pinnacle of synthetic evolution."

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun


Nah.

Moola
Aug 16, 2006
Lt. Danger has bad opinions on Mass effect

Mazerunner
Apr 22, 2010

Good Hunter, what... what is this post?
Mass Effect, as a series, had an underlying thematic concern re: past vs. future, creators vs. creations, parents vs. children, organic vs. synthetic, etc. Not necessarily in the sense actual strife, but in the sense that the past/parent/creator has both expectations of the future/child/creation that may or may not be reasonable, and they may or may not live up to, and also that the past has created a world, sucky or good, that the future must deal with, and I guess the children also have expectations of the parents that may or may not be reasonable and lived up to.

This motif pops up literally all the goddamn time is Mass Effect, and it is totally fitting for a series whose central conceit was that your choices (past) have consequences (future) that you'll have to deal with, good or bad (the conflict).


However, Mass Effect 3's ending focuses too much on the organic vs. synthetic facet, to the detriment of the overall theme. The Reaper's argument, divorced from the organic vs. synthetic, is essentially, "We are your parents and we know best". They are the ultimate helicopter parent, continuously cutting down and limiting their 'children' and sticking around far past their welcome, because the children/successors might maybe make a really bad mistake that fucks everything up for everyone even worse than the Reapers already do.

Do you agree with this? No? Good, I don't think too many people would, which is why I'd presume most people cure the genophage or let the rachni go, and so on.

But again, too much focus on one aspect, which leads to pedantic slap fights about "well the geth made peace" "but casino A.I.!" and so on when really that's only one bit of data in the larger picture, and also there were a ton of narrative and presentation problems in 3 and the ending that made it hard for the player to actually get what they were going for.

I mean I'm not one for like, technical accuracy in this space-fantasy adventure, but poo poo like the crucible feels unearned, even if it may have some thematic merit, or how the Reapers get a huge case of the dumbs and forget about the citadel and really all of ME1 was ignored going into 3 pretty much. Not good.

Uh, I kind of lost track of what I'm saying, but anyway I think that, at the core, there's some good stuff going on in the ending, but it really, really, needed several more editing passes and more voices for input. Also starkid and his stupid dreams were dumb and bad, get rid of him.

Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Feb 12, 2016

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Lt. Danger posted:

The krogan, the asari, the facility on Sur'kesh, Miranda Lawson. For more figurative/non-technological versions: the Shadow Broker, every alien party member in ME1, every non-DLC party member in ME2.

The Krogan were given technology, not genetically uplifted, and were quite soundly beaten back down. And they're probably going to adjust more easily to the galactic stage with Wrex and Eve at the helm because they've had hundreds of years to come to grips with the universe at large and their place in it. Theoretically. The Asari didn't rise up against their creators, they just didn't do the job they were supposed to do. Sur'Kesh is a research facility that's got things pretty well in hand before Cerberus shows up.

One individual does not an uprising make. And you're taking some serious liberties with The created turning on it's creator. Because the entire theme of the reapers is the created destroying their creator. Not "The created disagrees with the creator on ideological grounds and disobeys them for the greater good". The entire point of EDI's character is that once given free will she does not betray her "Creators" in the sense of the people who worked with her and formed her personality. Cerberus doesn't really interact with her beyond installing her in the ship. Shepard and the crew treat her as a person and she acts like one. She's basically the object lesson in "How to not have your post-human creation destroy you in 10 easy steps".

wookieepelt
Jul 23, 2009

Flagrant Abuse posted:

Personally, I think Shepard making peace between the Quarians and the Geth probably wouldn't have been enough to convince the Catalyst/Reapers that peace between organics and synthetics is possible. They've been around a long time, remember, and they've probably seen short term peace negotiated before. The question is if the peace is actually sustainable, and if so, for how long.

What I think should've been done is that if you have enough war score and negotiated a peace, then you should be able to just ask for, say, a couple centuries of reprieve to at least see if it can last.

e: This would also be a decent setup for a sequel down the line.

This is exactly what I was saying. If you negotiate peace and your war score it's high enough you should be able to make the reapers leave and monitor the state of the galaxy for a few hundred years. And if you didn't negotiate peace between the Geth and Quarians you should still be able to fight them, but certain species will die.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

The Krogan were definitely uplifted. Genetics or not doesn't make much difference on the theme of generational conflict. More to the point, they tried to un-uplift them with the genophage, which is certainly germane. The Salarians also decided to keep the Yahg a secret, expecting that they'd soon be teaching the elder races a lesson if they got space travel. There's strife between humans and the established species because humans are newcomers - young folk, members of a later "generation," loving millennials - who are getting too big for their britches.

You've got Cerberus messing with kids, you've got rich people making designer babies, you've got a whole species whose ability to interbreed makes them the most powerful and influential in the galaxy because they're everybody's moms.

And check out how many sidequests are about dads. There are so many.

A generation of Reapers is longer than a generation of alien species, which is longer than a generation of individuals. The Reapers are Cronus, devouring their children. That's what it's all about. The synthetic/organic dichotomy going on is the one that's most closely related to that. True synthetic life is the children of the organic life forms that invented them; AI is illegal because organics are afraid of them. Organics foresee synthetics threatening them; Cronus prophesied that one of his children would overthrow him; and Reapers, too, know of the inevitability of children replacing their parents, and have made themselves gods to try to stop it from happening. Not just from happening to them, but from happening at all. They're all trying to forestall fate.

But it only really works if the Reapers willingly choose to do it.

  • Locked thread