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It's worth noting that Peggy was interrupting half the things Dawn tried to say. She was pretty loving disrespectful to Dawn, which makes it harder to buy that her primary worry was a fear of appearing racist.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 19:51 |
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| # ? May 21, 2013 08:36 |
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Now see that's where you're wrong - I put my wallet on my coffee table, perhaps she does the same with her purse. I don't know - I feel like we can't know if she did it because Dawn is black, or because she doesn't know Dawn, but I think the thread has agreed that it's a race thing, but I just don't see it as definite. It's ambiguous.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 19:52 |
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SquirrelPrincess posted:The purse scene seemed weak to me because it was illogical. I have a place in my house where I always put my purse, just as my husband has a place where he always puts his wallet. Even drunk Peggy would have naturally collected her purse without a second thought to go hang it on her bedpost, or put it with her briefcase, or wherever her usual place for it would be. I'll definitely admit that it was plotted in a really, really clumsy way. But it was a pretty important scene regardless, because while it was great to see Peggy and Dawn interacting (though Dawn never REALLY gets comfortable, for obvious reasons) I think it would have been a bit much to turn it into a "look, now they're buddies and they totally understand each other and it'll all be better" deal. It was a sad reminder to Dawn that she's not on a level playing field, and also a reminder to Peggy that she doesn't get to just drink a bit and play casual with an officemate and magically overcome the horrible racist poo poo out there in the world.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 19:53 |
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Y Kant Ozma Post posted:It was a sad reminder to Dawn that she's not on a level playing field, and also a reminder to Peggy that she doesn't get to just drink a bit and play casual with an officemate and magically overcome the horrible racist poo poo out there in the world. Exactly correct and maybe I missed it but are some people thinking it wasn't a racist thing?
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 19:54 |
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zoux posted:Exactly correct and maybe I missed it but are some people thinking it wasn't a racist thing? Well, yes and no- more that people are saying that she'd probably behave that way with anybody and it BECAME a racist thing or whatever. I already made my argument so I won't rehash it, but what I just said about the takeaway will ring true no matter what was actually going on in Peggy's head at that time.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 19:55 |
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That scene with the purse was Peggy's realization that she's not as progressive as she thinks, and that her and Dawn's situations are no where near as similar as she had been making them out to be. It's also a realization that she is capable of the same type of thoughts that the men at SCDP have towards her. Thus, despite her progressivism as a capable woman in the 1960s, she's not entirely immune to the social stigmas prevalent in the era. She's not the same kind of antiquated, institutional racist as black-faced, wise-cracking Roger. But her subconscious feelings about race, despite her being all cool with Dawn by helping her out and throwing back a few beers, came out, ever so briefly, in that moment, and Dawn picked up on it instantly and implicitly called her out on it. I don't think Peggy is a racist, given that she's pretty stunned and ashamed by her own reaction - enough to leave the purse out despite the fact that, all things being equal, she would have been totally in the right to take her purse with her to bed.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 19:55 |
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Fistgrrl posted:Since I haven't seen anyone mention it, Fever Dream Girl played Shelly Johnson in Twin Peaks. Snap, I knew I knew that face from somewhere.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 19:57 |
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So, were all three appearances by Madchen Amick at Don's apartment fever dream or just the last two?
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 19:58 |
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One thing I'm wondering is if Don's fever dream was supposed to tie in with the Cinderella ad pitch somehow. I just remember either as he was stuffing the body under the bed or right after, the camera kind of focused on her legs, I noticed that she had one shoe on. Plus IIRC it was brightly colored in a "hey you, pay attention to this!" sort of way.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 19:59 |
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Supercar Gautier posted:It's worth noting that Peggy was interrupting half the things Dawn tried to say. She was pretty loving disrespectful to Dawn, which makes it harder to buy that her primary worry was a fear of appearing racist. She was also very drunk and sloppy and going down paths like "hey wanna be a copywriter?"
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 20:02 |
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zoux posted:So, were all three appearances by Madchen Amick at Don's apartment fever dream or just the last two? I'm guessing all three, seeing as how upon reflection it doesn't make a lot of sense that she'd have his address, make a beeline for it at just the right time, AND manage to get into the building. Fistgrrl posted:She was also very drunk and sloppy and going down paths like "hey wanna be a copywriter?" Drunk or not, a white woman constantly interrupting a black woman is a pretty unambiguous display of privilege.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 20:02 |
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Y Kant Ozma Post posted:Well, yes and no- more that people are saying that she'd probably behave that way with anybody and it BECAME a racist thing or whatever. Both are equally valid interpretations and the scene was intentionally ambiguous imo. What if the writers intended us the colour the scene with our own perceptions! I wonder if they're that clever.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 20:06 |
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I missed the subtext so I'm glad I asked. I thought I'd missed something in the headlines or something earlier in their conversation. I agree about her conversation, too - talking over her, telling her being a copywriter is *sniff* hard carries the subtext "and you couldn't handle it" and just in general not being a conversation to get to know each other as people so much as Peggy reflecting on what it's like to have a black woman in the office now.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 21:06 |
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Supercar Gautier posted:Drunk or not, a white woman constantly interrupting a black woman is a pretty unambiguous display of privilege. You've never met someone who just interrupts everyone constantly when they're drunk? It may be a privilege thing in this context but interrupting someone of a different race is not by definition a display of privilege.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 21:07 |
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zoux posted:I took the racist stuff as given, I thought it was more saying how tenuous interracial (or broader, interclass) relationships in such a volatile time can be. Peggy was being super progressive by inviting a black woman into her home, and they certainly seemed to be bonding throughout the evening, but all of that was completely destroyed by a single glance, and that each person instantly knew the subtext behind it. Both people had worked hard throughout the night to be comfortable with each other and build a rapport, but it was undone in a second. I don't think the takeaway from that scene should be "Is Peggy racist?" I don't think Peggy is a person that would intentionally discriminate against black people or anyone else, and maybe she would have moved away her purse regardless of what color her guest was, but Peggy is probably asking herself that too, if she's not just feeling guilty about it. Dawn isn't a close acquaintance, but she is a new coworker and someone who was in no position to steal from her. It reminded me a little of Lane refusing to turn the wallet over to the cabbie but in this case Peggy left the purse, but only after visibly balking at the idea. Fast Luck fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2012 around 21:29 |
| # ? Apr 9, 2012 21:15 |
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Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:You've never met someone who just interrupts everyone constantly when they're drunk? It may be a privilege thing in this context but interrupting someone of a different race is not by definition a display of privilege. If you can't picture the reverse happening without repercussions (imagine Peggy's frustration if Dawn had been the one repeatedly interrupting her), then yeah, privilege is in play. I mean, are these cues in the show really that subtle, that difficult to pick up on? Look at things like every male copywriter making arbitrary changes to Peggy's ideas in order to assert themselves over her, or Kinsey rambling at a bus full of silent black men and women. Not all the bigotry and sexism on the show is as big, loud, and boorish as Roger Sterling. The show's full of examples of all the tiny insults and discourtesies that add up to an oppressive environment. Supercar Gautier fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2012 around 21:23 |
| # ? Apr 9, 2012 21:21 |
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 21:24 |
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I think you all missed something about Peggy interrupting Dawn Secretaries are supposed to be confidential about what their bosses do, and Peggy is asking about Don. Peggy is overselling and feeling slightly bad about it since she knows Dawn shouldn't tell her.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 21:37 |
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Supercar Gautier posted:If you can't picture the reverse happening without repercussions (imagine Peggy's frustration if Dawn had been the one repeatedly interrupting her), then yeah, privilege is in play. You can't just assume that that's what would've happened and claim that as proof of your point. Like you said there's plenty of subtle examples of racism/bigotry but those happen in the office where there isn't really an excuse for them besides "This person is a racist/bigot". In this case Peggy was just doing what a lot of drunk people do and you're choosing to read way into it. Like someone mentioned earlier the scene was meant to show that even though Peggy invited Dawn to spend the night at her place and they're chatting and being friendly, there's still that ugly side to her. VDay fucked around with this message at Apr 9, 2012 around 21:53 |
| # ? Apr 9, 2012 21:50 |
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Did the fact that Peggy had an inordinate amount of money in her purse ruin or add an extra layer to the scene with Dawn? I'm not really sure. Was I the only person who found Ginsberg's remarks on how he didn't "get" women to be some very blatant hand-waving about his sexuality? I didn't really get where people were coming from before, but the scene here felt like more than than a humble preface to his presentation.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 21:55 |
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There's also the fact that Peggy is a superior at the company. And she's been working with and having to compete with men, which tends to force women to be more bullish and assertive, especially when they're sexist 1960s ad men. She's worried that she comes off as mannish. The race thing is a hugely important part of the dynamic of those scenes, but so is the gender thing and the company position thing.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 21:57 |
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ufarn posted:Did the fact that Peggy had an inordinate amount of money in her purse ruin or add an extra layer to the scene with Dawn? I'm not really sure. I don't know if it's enough to make any concrete answers on his sexuality; he could just be bad with women, and even though he claims to understand how they think, he can't really do much with it. Re: Peggy's racism, I don't think there's enough to that scene either to make that definitive claim. The fact that Peggy was drunk may have been more the reason than any racism.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 21:57 |
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Supercar Gautier posted:Drunk or not, a white woman constantly interrupting a black woman is a pretty unambiguous display of privilege. Thanks for mansplaining it to me! How tedious.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 22:03 |
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ufarn posted:Was I the only person who found Ginsberg's remarks on how he didn't "get" women to be some very blatant hand-waving about his sexuality? I didn't really get where people were coming from before, but the scene here felt like more than than a humble preface to his presentation. Nah, I wouldn't say that was. Had the last episode not ended on that note, I'd say it was totally irrelevant- I can see why someone would think it plays in, but I think that was just Bro Talk at SCDP. What, you want he should say "I totally get what women think about everything" to a client?
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 22:06 |
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Did at the beginning Roger really offer Peggy just  to finish whatever the hell it was over the weekend? Really? Like $100 in today's money? 
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 22:07 |
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Y Kant Ozma Post posted:Nah, I wouldn't say that was. Had the last episode not ended on that note, I'd say it was totally irrelevant- I can see why someone would think it plays in, but I think that was just Bro Talk at SCDP.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 22:14 |
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pigdog posted:Did at the beginning Roger really offer Peggy just Roger is really in trouble. Things are bad when you are having trouble bribing your job done.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 22:42 |
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Guy Fleegman posted:This had me cracking up
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 22:52 |
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Can anyone get a screencap of Peggy's  face when she was on the couch with Dawn?
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 23:22 |
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Strong Sauce posted:Sally is going to become a flower child of the 70s. And it is all traced back to this moment with her step-grandmother. Yes, and not so much the pills, but the murders. I think that whole thing was to show us just what some of the stressors were that caused the rise of the hippies and the mainstreaming of counterculture. My mom, who is about the same age as Sally was at the time, told me how she remembered seeing more and more bloody and gory footage from Vietnam in the evening news. There was a loss of innocence for kids of that age with the opening up of the media and loosening of restrictions on what was shown and talked about. Kids like Sally saw some harsh stuff, saw through the bullshit of their parents, and rebelled. kanonvandekempen posted:The most interesting part of the episode was Peggy, starting on a route into alcoholism, repressing lesbian feelings, unhappy with her life choices. Glad I wasn't the only one who picked up on that. More awkward than the purse stuff was waiting for Peggy to make a pass at Dawn on that couch. Party Plane Jones posted:Don's womanizing has always been the figurative "monster" within him. You can see it in the rest of the episode: Joan getting rid of Dr. surprise sex; the rest of the office being caught up in the Speck murders, Sally being terrified of it happening to her in that tomb of a house. Don is killing the "monster" and putting it back under the bed where it belongs. No, I think you're spot on. I get that some people will want to see the fever dream as representing Don's inherent misogynistic tendencies and a desire to kill women, but I disagree with that view. The woman in the dream wasn't a woman at all...she was Don. More specifically, she was the part of Don that drives him to cheat. The things she cooed to him to induce him to stray were the same things he said to himself whenever he cheated on Betty. Right down to the final denouement of "you're going to have sex with me anyway, because you're a bad man." This fits in with him getting off on S&M.
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| # ? Apr 9, 2012 23:54 |
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passionate dongs posted:Roger is really in trouble. Things are bad when you are having trouble bribing your job done. At the beginning I thought that Pete was really just being vindictive but now that it's clear that Roger isn't even doing his job, I don't see how much longer he's going to be there.
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| # ? Apr 10, 2012 00:21 |
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Remember the first scene of the opening episode? Maybe that's not the first time Sally was tripping  pigdog posted:Did at the beginning Roger really offer Peggy just I'd probably do it  but for her then it would've been completely ridiculous, it's probably less than 2 hour's wage for her.Overall another good episode, loved that whole scene with Roger as well as Joan's :bye: masterstroke. The dream and the purse were a bit ham fisted, IMO, but at least there's some room for interpretation there. I don't think she's necessarily racist, though that would be plausible and understandable, just very drunk (Recall that she was being a dick to Don at the party! "I shouldn't be allowed to drink..." and all that) and disconnected from the "black" issues. With the purse itself, she could've been thinking about it in several ways:
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| # ? Apr 10, 2012 00:26 |
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Everyone has missed the important issue: Dawn stole Peggy's Life magazines!
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| # ? Apr 10, 2012 00:29 |
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Toebone posted:Can anyone get a screencap of Peggy's   
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| # ? Apr 10, 2012 00:56 |
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Guy Fleegman posted:"y'all drink a lot." Yes, Dawn, they do.
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| # ? Apr 10, 2012 00:59 |
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mobby_6kl posted:[...] I understood the scene to mean exactly what you pointed out. Although I'm a bit more optimistic in that Peggy probably meant to move the purse because "Hey it's a stranger sleeping next to my purse full of cash!" instead of "gently caress, it's a black person sleeping next to my purse full of cash!". She realized that it wouldn't really go well regardless of her intention and just diverted to cleaning up the beer bottles instead.
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| # ? Apr 10, 2012 01:53 |
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That was definitely a fun episode for many reasons that have already been detailed. Regarding Peggy's "racism" - I also don't really think that Peggy's an outwardly racist person, I think she had, like, one of those "moments" that progressive white people who consciously try not be racist have, where they're confronted with a particular situation like that and some deeper instinct that they're not even totally aware of (until the moment presents itself) kicks in. A common example would be... You (a middle-class progressive white individual) are walking down a quiet street late in the evening by yourself, and you see a group of 3-4 normal looking black individuals coming at you in the other direction. You suddenly feel a strong impulse to cross to the other side of the street right away, and you know you wouldn't be feeling that way if it were 3-4 white people coming in your direction. I've had moments like that before, and it's almost not something you can really even control - at least you can't control having that train of thought, whether you act on it or not is another thing entirely. I think it's that there's a certain amount of engrained racism that comes from growing up white in America, and even the most accepting individuals have to deal with it. I think Peggy's ahead of the curve, if only because she's clearly aware that she's having these thoughts, and that she probably doesn't want to be having them. Anyway. I hope I didn't come across the wrong way in the above paragraph trying to make that point. On an unrelated note, what a brilliant usage of that creepy song by the Crystals at the end, there. That was a Phil Spector-produced song, as well, incidentally.
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| # ? Apr 10, 2012 02:05 |
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Supercar Gautier posted:Drunk or not, a white woman constantly interrupting a black woman is a pretty unambiguous display of privilege. Interrupting other people still leads to frictions nowadays between friends and members of a couple. Sit back and observe what's happening around you, I'd be surprised you won't find out that few people can actually get to the end of their tale without someone else cutting them mid-sentence. It's a human thing that only gets worse in situations where one is uncomfortable/feels guilty/has something to hide/is an egotist who wants to be the first to say what the other was about to say. Being drunk also counts. The writing of this show still amazes me. There are slow episodes but I've never felt like an episode was ever boring, bar the S3 too numerous shots of silently unhappy slim Betty. This time around, I'm not sure whether it's the writers or the director who deserve the congratulations, but Dawn leaving her goodbye note right on Peggy's purse at the end had me clap in admiration to the attention of details this show offers. Then I just wanted Peggy to open that darn purse and check its content. 
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| # ? Apr 10, 2012 02:08 |
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Just managed to watch this episode, and I agree with all the praise that's been heaped on it. They really knocked it out of the park. I can't wait for Don's supposed epiphany to bite him in the rear end later this season, not that I want to see him torn to pieces but because he might actually be setting himself up for the sort of fall that will make him learn something. On top of that I'm really interested in seeing the direction they have planned for Ginsberg -- obviously he's good, and as the hosiery pitch showed he's got a handle on psychology that's a bit more humanistic than the normal ad stuff. I wouldn't go so far as to call him an idealist, but he's certainly something different than the other characters. Also, it was suitably awkward as all hell to watch Peggy and Dawn put on "The Issue of Race in Second-Wave Feminism: The One-Act Play."
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| # ? Apr 10, 2012 02:35 |
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| # ? May 21, 2013 08:36 |
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Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:You've never met someone who just interrupts everyone constantly when they're drunk? It may be a privilege thing in this context but interrupting someone of a different race is not by definition a display of privilege.
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| # ? Apr 10, 2012 02:35 |
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