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Joan definitely earned partnership well before Herb laid eyes on her. It sucks that she had to get it that way, but she's gone through worse. At least it was probably over quickly. And go Peggy! Sucks that we may see her less, but she made the right call- she'd hit a wall at SCDP.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:12 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 10:19 |
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Hamass posted:I'm not trying to hate on Joan here, but this is still the 1960s and it's still a male-dominated society. Peggy can't eat the lobster or work on Jaguar because they don't respect a women's opinion, (despite everybody knowing Peggy is drat good at her job) but all Joan has to do is give up her body like a prostitute. Look, we all like Joan and she's been shown to manage the office well, but she got her promotion because she was hot. I gotta disagree a bit here. Peggy wasn't eating the lobster because she was literally handling all the rest of the company's creative while everyone else worked on one account. I don't think it was because Don didn't respect her opinion...it was because she was the only person he trusted to carry the water while the rest of them worked on Jaguar. What that was for Peggy was a moment when she realized that the responsibility she had there was the most she'd ever get...she could be in the room, sure, but she can't be Don in the room. There's nowhere else for her to go at SCDP but Don's job. As to when Don said it had to be Ginsberg after they got it, that was more because he saw what happened with Joan and he knew Peggy might be in for similar trouble. If she was on the account she'd either be propositioned or treated like poo poo. Don wouldn't come right out and tell her that, but he was trying to look out for her in that case. Edit: I also think we see here how Don has really taken her for granted. He's been mentoring her but even he can't see how she's outgrown him, thinking she just wants a raise. I know how Don feels because I've mentored a lot of people too, but I once had a boss who said that he'd never stand in anyone's way if they got a chance to advance their career and it's something I've applied to my subordinates. If someone says they want to go or have a better offer, sure I'd ask them to consider staying or if there was anything I could do, but if they were leaving for the right reasons, if it was a real upward career movement, I'd support them and do what I could to help. Not sure if Don is that kind of guy. In reality, Peggy may be the first person he's ever mentored as a leader. Astroman fucked around with this message at May 28, 2012 around 04:20 |
| # ? May 28, 2012 04:14 |
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The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The TV IV > Mad Men: The 5 Percent Solution
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:15 |
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JaundiceDave posted:you have no idea what you are talking about. if this agency existed in the modern day a person of joan's competence would be a partner. lane "earned" his partnership by doing what, exactly? firing some people? i don't see you complaining about his partnership. and yes, as soon as she accepted she had to go through with it. what's the point of being a 5 percent stakeholder in a company with no future? if they hadn't landed jaguar they were finished, and if there was one thing pete got right this episode, it was that they were sunk if herb went against them. But it doesn't exist in modern day, so it's pointless to talk about whether or not 2012 Joan would be made partner. I'm really not trying to be chauvinistic here, but everybody has a price, and Joan named hers. Pete, Roger and the rest of them can all try and convince her to do it, but in the end it was her decision. Also, Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce won't go out of business because then there's no show. They already left the original Sterling Cooper, I don't see a way to keep the cast together if SCDP folds. Would they start again with a third company? Plus, they just got a huge account (thanks to, again, Herb wanting to sleep with a hot redhead he saw) which should bring in money, 5% of which is now going to Joan.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:16 |
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Hamass posted:Peggy can't eat the lobster or work on Jaguar because they don't respect a women's opinion, (despite everybody knowing Peggy is drat good at her job)
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:16 |
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HalPhilipWalker posted:The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The TV IV > Mad Men: The 5 Percent Solution Has to be "Don't be a stranger."
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:19 |
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The Prisoner posted:That isn't true worth a drat and certainly not the message the show is trying to send - if that was the case she wouldn't be going to an agency that is naming her chief copy writer and paying her almost half of what Don makes with about a third of his experience and a non-partner status. That was part of my original point - Peggy has to go elsewhere for career advancement because she was never going to get it at SCDP, Joan has to sleep with a fat guy. Staring longingly at the lobsters from behind a window didn't give me the impression of "well Peggy could easily go inside and eat one, but she's too busy with work". It gave me the impression of "Peggy can't eat this lobster".
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:22 |
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The Prisoner posted:That isn't true worth a drat and certainly not the message the show is trying to send - if that was the case she wouldn't be going to an agency that is naming her chief copy writer and paying her almost half of what Don makes with about a third of his experience and a non-partner status. This is true. When Chaough (am I the only one who pictured Don thinking  "Chaough!" when Peggy said she was going to him?) was talking to her, he said he pretty much didn't care she was a woman, and that other agencies would probably ask her questions about getting married or having a baby--but NOT completely dismiss her because she was a woman. While they were pioneers, there were several other agencies IRL at that time who had women in positions higher than Peggy. Sometimes I think SC and SCDP were more behind the times than a lot of others. Peggy will probably find while there are some barriers it's not like she only had to exist at SCDP because they were the only one that would have a woman in creative.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:28 |
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What's happened with Peggy is that Don and the rest sort of subconsciously filed her away as having gone as far as she can go- she's not a rising star anymore, she settled in, so let's focus on the new blood like this Ginsberg kid. It's a common institutional thing, though I'm sure there was some bonus sexism.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:30 |
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Hamass posted:If she didn't spread her legs for some fat gross Jaguar executive, there's no chance of her making partner. Gross Herb wanted to gently caress Joan, Joan demanded a significant promotion, now Herb has been hosed & Joan is partner with a 5% stake in the company. It's loving your way to the top, and the truth is Joan didn't have to pay Herb a visit. kylejack fucked around with this message at May 28, 2012 around 04:43 |
| # ? May 28, 2012 04:33 |
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Maxwell Lord posted:What's happened with Peggy is that Don and the rest sort of subconsciously filed her away as having gone as far as she can go- she's not a rising star anymore, she settled in, so let's focus on the new blood like this Ginsberg kid. It's a common institutional thing, though I'm sure there was some bonus sexism. Exactly. And nowhere was that more plain when you had the head of Televison and Ken. Cosgrove. Accounts. walk in and sing the praises of Peggy for pulling an awesome idea out of her rear end and Don's only response is to hand the account to Ginsberg and belittle Peggy. Then Ginsberg, who Don can't stand, saves the day on Jaguar and Don acknowledges him for it, if only slightly...which was 100x the praise he could give Peggy anymore.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:35 |
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Hamass posted:But it doesn't exist in modern day, so it's pointless to talk about whether or not 2012 Joan would be made partner. I'm really not trying to be chauvinistic here, but everybody has a price, and Joan named hers. Pete, Roger and the rest of them can all try and convince her to do it, but in the end it was her decision. you still have utterly failed to explain why she is any less deserving of her partnership than lane, who is a partner because he fired a few people; bert, who does no work; and roger, who inherited from his father the only account of significance he ever managed
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:39 |
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JaundiceDave posted:you still have utterly failed to explain why she is any less deserving of her partnership than lane, who is a partner because he fired a few people; bert, who does no work; and roger, who inherited from his father the only account of significance he ever managed I never said any of them deserved their partnerships in the first place.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:43 |
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I'm not really surprised that Peggy left - they've been focusing on the tension Ginsberg brings to the equation since he was introduced. I am a bit surprised it happened now and not a bit closer to the finale. As sad as this episode was, though, I couldn't help but rooting for Peggy, especially when she told Don, correctly, that he would do the same thing if he were in her shoes. For all that Don's taught her about advertising, that sort of thing is probably the most important lesson in the end. I found it an interesting juxtaposition: Joan makes a significant advance in her career at an enormous cost, by whoring herself out (knowing that all the other partners know this cost). Whereas Peggy makes a huge gain just by being fed up at the lapse in respect from Don, and realizing she's hit her ceiling at SCDP. Was Don furious at the Joan thing because it was done without his consent, because he doesn't like the idea of a woman as partner, the moral repugnance of the whole thing, or a combination of these? (Obviously, Don still comes out shining in this episode compared to everyone else, especially Pete. I agree with the post a few pages ago: the scene with his daughter actually made him MORE repugnant, not less.) It's weird, all the speculation has been that Lane is about to be written out of the show because of Jared Harris' career, but Peggy may have just gotten written out instead. I hope we don't lose both of them. 
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:43 |
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Is this the first time we've seen those two copywriters in the opening scene? The one who said, "Are we just spitting up lines now?" and the other who said, "Where are you going?"
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:50 |
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kylejack posted:Is this the first time we've seen those two copywriters in the opening scene? The one who said, "Are we just spitting up lines now?" and the other who said, "Where are you going?" yes, don calls them freelancers later in the episode
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:53 |
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Lane needs to punch Pete in the face again, many many times. So sleazy how he refers to the Jaguar guy as "a handsome guy" when he's trying to talk Joan into it. I love how Joan sees right through his ruse.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 04:55 |
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kylejack posted:Lane needs to punch Pete in the face again, many many times. So sleazy how he refers to the Jaguar guy as "a handsome guy" when he's trying to talk Joan into it. I love how Joan sees right through his ruse. Pete's bad, but so is Lane. All of the partners other than Don wanted her to do it on some level so that they could get the account, and Ken was as excited as the rest even though he knew what Herb's demand was. That was arguably the worst part. All the partners, including Roger and Lane, were down with it, and none of the people who knew what she had to do seemed that upset by it.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:03 |
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DemonNick posted:Pete's bad, but so is Lane. All of the partners other than Don wanted her to do it on some level so that they could get the account, and Ken was as excited as the rest even though he knew what Herb's demand was. That was arguably the worst part. All the partners, including Roger and Lane, were down with it, and none of the people who knew what she had to do seemed that upset by it. Lane stole that bonus and is now obsessed with finding a way to cover over it. Things are getting very bad for Lane, and I now see no way for him to clear it. Pete's asked him to extend the credit line, something he can't do because he already did, and paid it out to himself and the staff.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:15 |
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DemonNick posted:Pete's bad, but so is Lane. All of the partners other than Don wanted her to do it on some level so that they could get the account, and Ken was as excited as the rest even though he knew what Herb's demand was. That was arguably the worst part. All the partners, including Roger and Lane, were down with it, and none of the people who knew what she had to do seemed that upset by it. I completely agree with you except I'm not suprised at Ken's response. All the account guys are, in part, glorified pimps. They've been bringing along 'girls they know' aka escorts to smooze clients since season 1.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:15 |
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The trip to Paris would've been Peggy's first time on a plane
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:16 |
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I'm thrilled for Peggy, having pulled a similar move recently and walked away with just that same shiteating grin, too. Now I fervently hope Joan will castrate Pete both figuratively and literally. Really disappointed she went through with it even if she thought Don was on board with it. "My mother raised me to be admired"...oh man. Joan, you were so awesome, don't be not awesome 
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:18 |
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Vortex Street posted:I'm thrilled for Peggy, having pulled a similar move recently and walked away with just that same shiteating grin, too. Now I fervently hope Joan will castrate Pete both figuratively and literally. Really disappointed she went through with it even if she thought Don was on board with it. "My mother raised me to be admired"...oh man. Joan, you were so awesome, don't be not awesome I wonder if Peggy is going to get Ken to follow her.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:18 |
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Vortex Street posted:Now I fervently hope Joan will castrate Pete both figuratively and literally. Really disappointed she went through with it even if she thought Don was on board with it. "My mother raised me to be admired"...oh man. Joan, you were so awesome, don't be not awesome I'm certain what she did is going to overshadow her involvement in the company for a while now. It's going to be hovering in air waiting until she has a confrontation with someone for it to come out, watch it be Pete who slut shames her so we can hate him some more.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:20 |
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Simstim posted:I'm certain what she did is going to overshadow her involvement in the company for a while now. It's going to be hovering in air waiting until she has a confrontation with someone for it to come out, watch it be Pete who slut shames her so we can hate him some more. edit: Just realized that Lane has said in the past that Joan could do his job. Since Joan is now a partner, and Lane is going to get shafted sooner or later, does that mean Joan is going to be the new Lane? passionate dongs fucked around with this message at May 28, 2012 around 05:29 |
| # ? May 28, 2012 05:22 |
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Piglet posted:gently caress. This is worse than an unexpected death. I loved Don visibly going through the stages of grief (well, minus acceptance) in like 30 seconds.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:30 |
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cletepurcel posted:Was Don furious at the Joan thing because it was done without his consent, because he doesn't like the idea of a woman as partner, the moral repugnance of the whole thing, or a combination of these? Don was furious at the Joan thing because he actually likes Joan as a colleague and respects her as a person and didn't want to see her do something she'd regret. It could not have been made more plain in their interaction in the previous episode. If he was pissed it was done without his consent, he would have just yelled at Pete instead of running off to stop Joan. As to her becoming a partner, he didn't know that was in the cards. He last heard they were going to throw money at her. And frankly, if someone said to Don "hey, should we give partnership to Joan?" it wouldn't surprise me at all if he of anyone said yes. Astroman fucked around with this message at May 28, 2012 around 05:38 |
| # ? May 28, 2012 05:35 |
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CORN NOG posted:I loved Don visibly going through the stages of grief (well, minus acceptance) in like 30 seconds. I was worried they'd have Don blow up at her, but that hand kiss was a really sweet moment and hearkened back to The Suitcase.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:38 |
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Just a perfect episode of TV. Heartbreaking and exhilarating all at once. I think Peggy's grin at the end said it all. Didn't think The Suitcase could be topped but then there was The Other Woman.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:42 |
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Astroman posted:Don was furious at the Joan thing because he actually likes Joan as a colleague and respects her as a person and didn't want to see her do something she'd regret. It could not have been made more plain in their interaction in the previous episode. I agree with you, though. Don's a horrible rear end in a top hat, but somewhere in his heart he wants to believe he's a gentleman. It comes out every once in a while.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:46 |
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silly posted:Just a perfect episode of TV. Heartbreaking and exhilarating all at once. I think Peggy's grin at the end said it all. Didn't think The Suitcase could be topped but then there was The Other Woman. This cannot possibly be quoted enough. Powerful episode...for someone who begrudgingly got back on the Mad Men bandwagon after that poo poo S4 finale, this episode, and the build up to it, totally made it worth it.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:49 |
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I saw a Home Depot commercial during the episode that said to Shazam it for how-to videos and more information on vertical gardens. Pretty neat idea for monetizing Shazam. I wonder what ad agency thought that up.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 05:56 |
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At first I thought this was the season finale, then was shocked that there were two episodes more. At this point, I have no idea where this show is heading. And the previews don't help in leading in a certain direction.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 06:04 |
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kylejack posted:I saw a Home Depot commercial during the episode that said to Shazam it for how-to videos and more information on vertical gardens. Pretty neat idea for monetizing Shazam. I wonder what ad agency thought that up. A lot of ads have been doing this for awhile now. It's a neat idea, I think. Works better than those QR codes as far as I can tell.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 06:20 |
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courtney_beth posted:At first I thought this was the season finale, then was shocked that there were two episodes more. At this point, I have no idea where this show is heading. And the previews don't help in leading in a certain direction. I figured they were building up towards a Ginsberg / Don / Peggy confrontation, but now that Peggy's out of the picture I have no clue. Then again, has anyone been able to predict the last two season finale bombshells? I remember the blowup of SC at the end of S3 was great for that reason, and can't remember if Don marrying Megan was a popular theory at the time.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 06:22 |
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Apparently Hamm was directed to hold the kiss on Moss' hand without Moss knowing about it and her reaction was real.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 06:23 |
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The formation of SCDP at the end of the third series was brilliant and I didn't see it coming - loved the feel of "we're trying to put the band back together." If they're looking to keep new talent on screen, I really do hope they keep Ginsberg around. He's quickly becoming one of my favorites.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 06:25 |
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That was a pretty devastating hour of television, and the first word that came to mind to describe it. I'm glad to see other people have a similar reaction. They really took no time to rest in the resolution of the Joanie plotline before giving the Peggy gut punch.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 06:25 |
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kylejack posted:Pete told Don that Joan was made partner just before he rushed off to stop her. Little did he know that she had already been to see Sleazy with Jaguar. I think it has more to do with respecting her and looking up to her. I think deep down, even though he is a huge womanizer, Don respects a strong woman. He had a real bonding moment in the bar and he thought that he got Jaguar with his pitch. Also, it probably has to do with Don's mother being a prostitute now that I think about it. Remember the scene in the brothel with the partners? Don just sat at the bar and Campbell called him high and mighty or something. He thinks that a woman shouldn't have to sell her body. So when he got Jaguar, he not only lost Joan but Peggy, and Peggy turned out to be the one with dignity while Joan sold hers for a price. He lost both women, but in opposite ways.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 06:27 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 10:19 |
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Brass posted:I think it has more to do with respecting her and looking up to her. I think deep down, even though he is a huge womanizer, Don respects a strong woman. He had a real bonding moment in the bar and he thought that he got Jaguar with his pitch.
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| # ? May 28, 2012 06:30 |
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