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Just watched the episode and need to catch up on the thread, but I just wanted to pipe up with a couple of things. Love that cliff-hanger. On the question of whether Mad Men falls into either the Sopranos arena of "people never change", or in the realm of Breaking Bad's "of course they loving do", the show gave us a heaping help of "wait till next season, you dummy." The show is straddling the line between optimism and depression really well, and its something that refuses to let the audience relax or fit Mad Men into an easy box. Look at how Peggy was sitting in the theater. Compare that to Don in, well, alot (and the title sequence). Sprawling out with one arm over the seat. It's classic Don, and shows how much she's picked up his traits, trying to fulfill the fantasy he's concocted without realizing how much of it is a lie. And only able to do so outside his shadow. Look at how she contracted and lost that confident veneer at his appearance. It was startling in its obviousness. The Don fantasy is also something that Pete has heavily bought into. He's even more miserable than Don because he so heavily buys into it. Don at least a glimmer of awareness of how much is wrong with him (even if he tends to ignore it, coughtoothmetaphorcough). Pete just doesn't have the discipline and littlest bit of wisdom to see how bullshit his lies to himself are. He can only complain about the mistakes they cause as they happen, and therefore do nothing to stop them. I'll be posting other stuff later, probably. EDIT: Other people caught the Fellini reference, right?
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| # ? Jun 16, 2012 03:16 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 18:50 |
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I honestly think it was pretty strongly implied that Don is cheating again. That shot at the shoe shoot, he walks away from a picturesque scene with Megan and it fades into him at a bar ordering the exact same drink we first saw him ever order in Season 1.
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| # ? Jun 16, 2012 05:17 |
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It's tough to read. I feel like they left it up to interpretation on purpose, if you want to make it clear for the finale you can easily end it with a yes or no, it was an intentional choice not to. Does that mean it was because the answer was clear if you look for it? I dunno, because it seems like reasonable people are disagreeing. I could easily see him going either way. It's not like someone with a pedigree of working on The Sopranos would be afraid of leaving a vague ending.
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| # ? Jun 16, 2012 05:50 |
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The end of the season is absolutely a cliffhanger, and the final scene is every bit as charged with anticipation as, say, TNG's "The Best of Both Worlds" was for me. I almost hate them for making us wait another [however goddamn long it's gonna take for season 6 to come out) to see the resolution.
McSpanky fucked around with this message at Jun 16, 2012 around 07:25 |
| # ? Jun 16, 2012 07:22 |
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So has it been brought up that Pete doesn't really have a sister in law? I've been rewatching the whole series while watching current episodes. I just saw the episode when Trudy announced her pregnancy. Her father said she was an only child.
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| # ? Jun 16, 2012 14:18 |
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bitchymcjones posted:So has it been brought up that Pete doesn't really have a sister in law? I've been rewatching the whole series while watching current episodes. I just saw the episode when Trudy announced her pregnancy. Her father said she was an only child. What about his brother's wife? She always likes to offer a bouquet of her thoughts.
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| # ? Jun 16, 2012 14:36 |
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There were two Fellini references that I caught (or imagined). The first is the reel of Megan, which is a remarkably close reproduction of a number of close shots of Anouk Aimee. The other is that already infamous shot of Don walking from her, her set, and apparently whatever the marriage had been up to that point. Fellini was obsessed with playing around with the idea of film and fantasy (and adultery), and where the line was between reality and lies, something Mad Men tends to pick at as well. Megan's a great locus for this. I don't necessarily believe that Megan was "acting" through her marriage, like the Orange Bus (or was it Couch? Can't remember) review claimed. I think it's more complicated than that. By the way, this episode settled the question of Jessica Pare's acting ability. Check out that scene where she and her friend are discussing Don's commercial. Look at the emotions playing across her face. Even if they are somewhat hidden by her need to seem pleasant, her whole story in the season plays out there. Her problems with Don, her envy, her depression, and her need to succeed. She's a lot like Don. She wields lies and fantasy (though I think more subconsciously, as people tend to foist them on her, than Don) to be the person she wants to be. She's hungry for success, and like Don mentioned, happiness is not enough. Megan was luminous in that black and white reeler, more beautiful than she's ever been. She belongs in front of a camera. And I have the feeling that she is probably going to follow the path of many other women with that sort of destiny. Though she might not be quite as special as an Elizabeth Taylor or Marilyn Monroe, I very much see her marriage with Don playing out similarly to those made by those famous ladies. Don might just be another James Dougherty, another Eddie Fisher. EDIT: You guys were spot on with the power dynamics between Don and Megan. Equality is something that Don can't abide. Either he's dominant, or she's the mother savior figure that can save himself from himself. Any other way and it'll fall apart. According to history anyway. Shageletic fucked around with this message at Jun 16, 2012 around 18:03 |
| # ? Jun 16, 2012 17:45 |
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I think there is no way the end shot is ambiguous. Did they leave anything in the episode to indicate that Don wouldn't do it? If Weiner wanted the last shot of the season to make you realize that Dom was going to cheat on Megan, this is exactly how he would do it. Don just realized that Megan is just "somebody's wife", a James Bond track was playing, and he the last frame is of him grinning.
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| # ? Jun 16, 2012 20:12 |
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windwaker posted:I think there is no way the end shot is ambiguous. Did they leave anything in the episode to indicate that Don wouldn't do it? On the other hand, it would have been stupidly easy for him to cheat in the whorehouse: he has no compunctions about buying sex, he was with a bunch of colleagues who were doing it too, and it probably never would have got back to Megan. There was a whole chorus of "NO DON DON"T DO IT!"s going in ITT because we thought he would. But he didn't. This is the big question Weiner is asking us: Is Don Finally, Truly, Happy? If he is, if he's finally happy and more self actualized and has integrated the Dick Whitman aspects of his personality with Don Draper, he will say no to the girl at the bar. He'll happily go back to his wife and celebrate her success, then keep helping his growing company. If he's not happy, he'll cheat with this girl and begin another spiral of self destruction. Clearly Weiner wants us to think on this during the summer.
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| # ? Jun 16, 2012 20:39 |
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Astroman posted:On the other hand, it would have been stupidly easy for him to cheat in the whorehouse: he has no compunctions about buying sex, he was with a bunch of colleagues who were doing it too, and it probably never would have got back to Megan. There was a whole chorus of "NO DON DON"T DO IT!"s going in ITT because we thought he would. But he didn't. Cheating in the whorehouse wasn't really...Season 1 Don Draper. That was Season 4 Don Draper, where even Alison seemed like a good idea. He doesn't need someone to satisfy base urges. He needs someone to make him feel like James Bond. Whether or not he escaped the brothel unscathed earlier in this season when Megan was still his bright-eyed protégée or his anti-establishment Midge doesn't mean much to me. Megan willingly gave up her power over Don, layer after layer, against his wishes. So. Here we are. You only live twice.
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| # ? Jun 16, 2012 20:48 |
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Liebfraumilch posted:Cheating in the whorehouse wasn't really...Season 1 Don Draper. That was Season 4 Don Draper, where even Alison seemed like a good idea. He doesn't need someone to satisfy base urges. He needs someone to make him feel like James Bond. Whether or not he escaped the brothel unscathed earlier in this season when Megan was still his bright-eyed protégée or his anti-establishment Midge doesn't mean much to me. Exactly. The idea that Don just wants sex is missing the point entirely. I feel like this conversation mirrors the ones at the end of season 3 of Breaking Bad where Jesse shoots Gale but we just hear the gunshot: it is possible that Don didn't cheat on Megan, but it is painfully clear that we are supposed to think that he did.
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| # ? Jun 16, 2012 21:20 |
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A lot of it depends on how you interpret "you only live twice". Don is on to his second life, his second wife, his second firm; he's died and been reborn again and again. He doesn't get to do it again. He has to make do with what he has this time. But it also means he can try not to make the same mistakes as he did last time.
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| # ? Jun 16, 2012 23:21 |
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Sisgmund posted:he's died and been reborn again and again. He doesn't get to do it again.
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| # ? Jun 16, 2012 23:35 |
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Hoops posted:Why not? It would be far easier for him to divorce Megan and move on than it was to split up with Betty. Not sure I agree -- the show has hinted several times that he's starting to get to the age where being single is a bad thing. If it doesn't work with Megan there's a good chance he winds up as eternal creepy bachelor or, you know, Roger.
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| # ? Jun 16, 2012 23:55 |
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J-Man X posted:What about his brother's wife? She always likes to offer a bouquet of her thoughts. Oh yeah, Pete does have a brother. I forgot about him.
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| # ? Jun 17, 2012 00:28 |
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windwaker posted:Exactly. The idea that Don just wants sex is missing the point entirely.
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| # ? Jun 17, 2012 01:17 |
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SpaceMost posted:The camera tilted for a reason. Obviously, Don turned his penis at the last minute and only dry-humped the blonde. Lane is still alive. You can tell by the angles.
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| # ? Jun 17, 2012 03:47 |
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What a great show. I started marathoning the series about two weeks before the start of this year's premiere. Then I caught up on the thread and have been able to watch and read, week to week. It's very strange to me how long ago it started and how long it took me to see it. A lot of popular culture since 2007 is making sense now, five years later. Marie Calvet says to Don (on the night Megan is plastered), "Take my advice – nurse her through this defeat, and you shall have the life you desire." What is the life she is thinking Don desires, and do you think Don takes this advice in the form of getting her the Butler shoes spot, or is he doing the opposite of what the "belle-mère salope" suggests? (Julia Ormond, is fun to watch in this role.) The way the character of Don is written – he's a person that is smart enough that he should be able to gain a bit of wisdom, from his past decisions - but it seem that the finale is possibly rebooting Don back to square one. I really think he's trying to be a better person since Anna died, but maybe that's too optimistic for Mad Men. Where does Weiner want to take Don Draper, ultimately? Also - I don't know if anyone ever brought it up, but I'm always watching for character's names in plays, movies etc. Don - to put on... Draper - his identity concealment right there, the moment the character is introduced. Also he literally is an "arm draper" - he drapes his arm when sitting on chairs, although that's probably just coincidence, it's still cool.
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| # ? Jun 17, 2012 07:32 |
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Djimi posted:Marie Calvet says to Don (on the night Megan is plastered), "Take my advice – nurse her through this defeat, and you shall have the life you desire." What is the life she is thinking Don desires, and do you think Don takes this advice in the form of getting her the Butler shoes spot, or is he doing the opposite of what the "belle-mère salope" suggests? (Julia Ormond, is fun to watch in this role.)
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| # ? Jun 17, 2012 17:50 |
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The blonde in the bar that asks Don if he is alone, is she the same friend that Megans was talking to about the commercial?
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| # ? Jun 17, 2012 17:51 |
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Amdis posted:The blonde in the bar that asks Don if he is alone, is she the same friend that Megans was talking to about the commercial? Nope.
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| # ? Jun 17, 2012 17:51 |
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Djimi posted:Also - I don't know if anyone ever brought it up, but I'm always watching for character's names in plays, movies etc. Don - to put on... Draper - his identity concealment right there, the moment the character is introduced. Oh, thank God! I've been kind of wanting to blurt it out to someone, but kind of lacking a sympathetic audience in person. I love these things too much.
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| # ? Jun 17, 2012 17:53 |
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Liebfraumilch posted:Oh, thank God! I've been kind of wanting to blurt it out to someone, but kind of lacking a sympathetic audience in person. I love these things too much. Five seasons.
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| # ? Jun 17, 2012 17:56 |
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Sisgmund posted:A lot of it depends on how you interpret "you only live twice". The lyrics of the song say "One life for yourself and one for your dreams," which I took to mean that Don was realizing that his dream of Megan (wife and mistress combined in one convenient package) wasn't working and that old Don, who had affairs with sophisticated, interesting women, but then went home to stifled, domestic Betty - was back. I took the final scene to be him cheating again. Megan is now just as ordinary to him as Betty was and he's chasing the dream again.
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| # ? Jun 18, 2012 13:24 |
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I agree Don is going to cheat. Especially after the Jaguar episode when him and Joan are driving the car around town and he just doesn't understand the appeal of the car. Joan says it's because he is happy with his life, and that the car is for unhappy men, but after he "gets it" and he truly isn't happy at all.
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| # ? Jun 18, 2012 20:08 |
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I remember reading the AV Club review immediately after watching the finale and the reviewer suggesting that we all knew how Don would answer, and I was surprised for a half a second before reflecting that I just literally watched Don walk away from his fairytale bride scenario into the shadows and emerge alone at a bar with single ladies cruising him to James Bond music and I felt naive.
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| # ? Jun 18, 2012 20:35 |
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Misogynist posted:I thought Anna Wood was horrendous as Lakshmi in almost every conceivable way. I thought she was sexy in a really repellent way, if that makes sense. Great performance (though the heel turn didn't quite read right).
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| # ? Jun 18, 2012 21:52 |
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FuriousxGeorge posted:It's tough to read. I feel like they left it up to interpretation on purpose, if you want to make it clear for the finale you can easily end it with a yes or no, it was an intentional choice not to. Mad Men is barely ever about what happens. It's about why. To put it another way, 'are you alone' is the question that series 5 was the answer to. Just like series 4 (?) had 'Who is Don Draper'. So answering it with a yes or no would be superfluous.
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| # ? Jun 18, 2012 21:55 |
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sebmojo posted:I thought she was sexy in a really repellent way, if that makes sense. Great performance (though the heel turn didn't quite read right). I agree that it was a bad heel turn, but Christ, Lakshmi was such a minuscule character that I kind of didn't bother thinking on it. On another note: there's been a lot of flack flying at Alexis Bledel, lots of it deservedly so, for sure - she's so wooden in that role that "but I have electroshock amnesia!" almost read like a punchline - but drat it, I watched a lot of Gilmore Girls and thus have to conclude that she's not that bad at acting! I just think the role wasn't right, sort of the opposite of how people say that Betty is the de facto January Jones role.
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| # ? Jun 19, 2012 02:39 |
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I don't know how you guys feel about death of the author, but according to the AMC behind the scenes thing, Jon Hamm says Don sees something in Megan and decides to make her his "discovery," for whatever that's worth. I really dislike her character so I'd rather think she totally sucks at acting but, well, that's apparently what Jon Hamm thought Don was thinking.
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| # ? Jun 19, 2012 02:44 |
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I watched the Adjustment Bureau the other night, and I couldn't help but think that Matt Damon was being chased by SDCP.
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| # ? Jun 19, 2012 03:04 |
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twistedmentat posted:I watched the Adjustment Bureau the other night, and I couldn't help but think that Matt Damon was being chased by SDCP.
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| # ? Jun 19, 2012 03:08 |
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Just rewatched Sherlock Holmes A game of Shadows and Harris was easily the best part of it. Downey and Law were just doing the same thing but Harris made the movie so much better.
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| # ? Jun 19, 2012 03:30 |
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bobkatt013 posted:Just rewatched Sherlock Holmes A game of Shadows and Harris was easily the best part of it. Downey and Law were just doing the same thing but Harris made the movie so much better. Yea, I mentioned that earlier. I love Downey and Law in the roles, but Harris just kills it as the villain. Hrm...Terrance Stamp on Mad Men.
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| # ? Jun 19, 2012 04:03 |
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bobkatt013 posted:Just rewatched Sherlock Holmes A game of Shadows and Harris was easily the best part of it. Downey and Law were just doing the same thing but Harris made the movie so much better. I saw this blindly the other day (I had no idea it was even a movie or he was in it, I don't follow movies) and he was by far the best character/actor. Makes me want to find more of his stuff.
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| # ? Jun 19, 2012 05:07 |
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bobkatt013 posted:Just rewatched Sherlock Holmes A game of Shadows and Harris was easily the best part of it. Downey and Law were just doing the same thing but Harris made the movie so much better. I saw this movie before I ever started watching Mad Men and was so thoroughly disturbed by Moriarty that whenever Lane showed up in the office, I felt for sure that he'd be this slimy villain again. And then he turned out to be totally awesome. I wonder how this will impact my future viewings of Game of Shadows...
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| # ? Jun 19, 2012 12:41 |
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windwaker posted:Exactly. The idea that Don just wants sex is missing the point entirely. I wasn't reading the Breaking Bad thread at the time; were people really debating that? From what I've read though that thread tends to get a little... hyperbolic.
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| # ? Jun 19, 2012 14:14 |
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Hatter106 posted:I wasn't reading the Breaking Bad thread at the time; were people really debating that? All I remember from that thread after the finale was, OMG the gun was totally angled away from the camera AKA Gale's POV! THUS Jesse did not shoot Gale! Not as though it doesn't happen in this thread.
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| # ? Jun 19, 2012 16:39 |
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Hatter106 posted:I wasn't reading the Breaking Bad thread at the time; were people really debating that?
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| # ? Jun 20, 2012 04:23 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 18:50 |
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Strong Sauce posted:All I remember from that thread after the finale was, OMG the gun was totally angled away from the camera AKA Gale's POV! THUS Jesse did not shoot Gale! If that had actually been the case I would have probably stopped watching and lost all respect for the show.
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| # ? Jun 20, 2012 04:27 |
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