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DentArthurDent posted:But the overall bleakness of the ending does not bother me. Despite the action movie cliches of Mass Effect, this is a bleak series. Let's not forget the ending of Mass Effect 1 where Shepard triumphantly stands above Saren's corpse and then poses for the movie poster. Yeah, Mass Effect is grimdark as gently caress. 
homeless snail fucked around with this message at Mar 16, 2012 around 17:39 |
| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:35 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 21:08 |
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There is no Paragon ending. That alone is a bit of a problem.Android Blues posted:But Eve is on Tuchanka, and has the makings of a great leader herself. I think, depending on your choices, it's probably a happy ending for the krogan. Yeah, the Krogan aren't completely hosed, but they were in a poo poo position to begin with.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:37 |
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CommonSensei posted:On a related note, the radio shows they did of the books several years later spanning Life, the Universe, and Everything through Mostly Harmless changed the ending. Not only that, Douglas Adams himself had told the people adapting those books to change the ending, and would have probably done it himself if he hadn't died.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:37 |
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Buddy Holly posted:I do think it's the Citadel and that it closes and I think that's actually very important. It tells me that both the Reapers and the Citadel/new Catalyst will lay dormant until it's time to start the next cycle. I really don't believe Control is supposed to be the "good/Paragon" ending at all. It continues the cycle as it always has but this time without a working Citadel. And I certainly don't believe Shepard can control individual Reapers to fix the relays or save the Normandy crew this way, even if she weren't sleeping for the next 50 000 years. I figured the Citadel closed to represent Shepard being sequestered there in her role as weird Reaper central-brain. Like now there's a massive floating obelisk in Earth's orbit containing the physical shell of the panconscious queen of the universe.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:38 |
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Jarmel posted:Ask an average viewer of either and the endings will always pop up. You can't discuss either work without having to discuss the endings. Sure the endings are part of the discussion, but if that's the only thing people are going to focus on then skip the loving series, read a summary and watch the last 10 minutes.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:38 |
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Not only that, Douglas Adams himself had told the people adapting those books to change the ending, and would have probably done it himself if he hadn't died.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:38 |
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MadRhetoric posted:What thumb said, and this kind of mindless virtiol is how and why those assholes can write off the whole argument as nerd entitlement. Tell me how do you fix an ending that retcons all of ME1? The only way out is the indoctrination theory, which is just a more advanced 'it's all a dream'. Not to mention the way it breaks already established canon such as the whole Normandy bit. If this was done in any other medium, there would be similar if not worse backlash. They wanted fans riled up and so why should they be surprised when that exact thing happens. Stupidity begets stupidity and in this case I can't blame the fans at all considering how absolutely insane the endings are.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:38 |
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Android Blues posted:But the only things that really get wrecked are the Mass Relays. Everyone else just...pretty much goes on as usual If you follow the lore at all, "just the Mass Relays" is like saying "Well, things go on just fine on Earth after the oceans vanished." The Mass Relays are basically the most important thing in the setting. (Which is probably why they decided to destroy them while breaking the toybox because nothing else would have the same impact, not even blowing up Earth.) It's not a complete end to life but it's a disaster on an utterly unprecedented scale and with little else to it beyond a vague "well, maybe we can rebuild" unless you follow the mind-numbingly stupid "every has robot DNA now thanks to space magic" ending. Superstring posted:People were a little more forgiving (you have to remember lots of people were still mad) because they were expecting a KOTOR 3 to explain everything. Also it was quickly apparent that the ending was not the writer's intended ending but the result of problems. People found the stuff hidden on the X-Box disc really quickly if I recall. With ME3 there is no excuse like that. Look at how desperately people latched onto the drat Indoctrination thing as an out to explain it. Android Blues posted:But Eve is on Tuchanka, and has the makings of a great leader herself. I think, depending on your choices, it's probably a happy ending for the krogan. The entire point of setting up Eve and Wrex as the leaders is that the Krogans wanted to become part of an intergalactic society and prove their worth. As it stands Wrex is trapped in Sol for an unknown period of time and Eve is now forced to try to hold the clans together on the ruined remains of their homeworld with a suddenly influx of breeding and without the ability to actually become part of intergalactic society as they hoped. It's a pretty poo poo ending aside from "Well, they can have babies now." Or are part robot, I guess. This is the problem with the Mass Relays. Destroying them just because the Reapers say so is basically giving a win to the villain no matter what. They are right, you just chose how they win, and everything you worked for over three games is basically invalidated. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at Mar 16, 2012 around 17:44 |
| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:38 |
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DentArthurDent posted:If you cured the genophage, then...you cured the genophage. I never said it affected one of the endings. I said it was a choice you made during the game, that was not undone by most of the endings. Why is this difficult to understand? Because, once again, it comes down to the consequences of your actions. The lasting effects you thought your choices would have. Did you cure the genophage and bring peace to the turians and krogan? It doesn't matter one way or the other because the consequences of what you did (Do the krogan become fast breeding imperialists again? Does the peace last?) are rendered moot when the krogan and turian communities are cut off from each other for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:39 |
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Every single adaptation of Hitchhiker's Guide varies wildly too. That's the fault of the Universe, though.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:41 |
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Android Blues posted:But Eve is on Tuchanka, and has the makings of a great leader herself. I think, depending on your choices, it's probably a happy ending for the krogan. The krogans will probably make it, and having most of the men on Tuchanka means there's a better chance it will turn back into a matriarchial society. That said, most of the men are now stranded on Earth, Tuchanka is left without much in the way of ships, and I guess I always had the impression that it relied primarily on incoming krogan to trade for survival, being almost totally a wasteland. So it's not exactly like it'll be all sunshine and roses, and for some people it IS a lovely end to one of their favourite characters (being Wrex).
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:41 |
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Superstring posted:Because, once again, it comes down to the consequences of your actions. The lasting effects you thought your choices would have. They should make this a lead in to a 4X Master of Orion style game where the cut off homeworlds rebuild, relearn interstellar travel and rediscover each other and vie for control. Earth has the largest multicultural fleet and, depending on the ending, the Citadel, so they can represent a new Council faction while the other races represent their respective philosophies.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:43 |
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Every single adaptation of Hitchhiker's Guide varies wildly too. This can't possibly be true because an artist never adapts or makes changes to their work to suit changes in time and/or consumer preference. 
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:43 |
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homeless snail posted:Let's not forget the ending of Mass Effect 1 where Shepard triumphantly stands above Saren's corpse and then poses for the movie poster. Yeah, Mass Effect is grimdark as gently caress. Yes, a scene that happens a few hours of gameplay after an extinct Prothean tells you the Reapers exterminated their race, have been doing that for ever, and are now coming for you, with no hope of stopping them. I loved the ending of the first game, but the fact that ME3 goes beyond the action movie cliches to examine the consequences of what's really happening to the universe, and makes you pay a high price for victory, is not a weakness in my book.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:44 |
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Mr. Pumroy posted:Incoherent rage is hardly a platform on which to build the foundation for your argument. If all they receive on their end is a bunch of frothing shitflinging then the fans hardly have room to speak when they see a response that, in their eyes, misses the actual cogent points on why the end is terrible. It's not like we're having a serious intellectual discussion with the creators on how they hosed up, and they did. Instead they seem content to just let people guess at all the plotholes that they created. This ending was straight up disrespectful for any fan of the franchise. They should have seen this coming and if they did, well it's on them then.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:45 |
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DentArthurDent posted:Yes, a scene that happens a few hours of gameplay after an extinct Prothean tells you the Reapers exterminated their race, have been doing that for ever, and are now coming for you, with no hope of stopping them. I loved the ending of the first game, but the fact that ME3 goes beyond the action movie cliches to examine the consequences of what's really happening to the universe, and makes you pay a high price for victory, is not a weakness in my book. Except it doesn't. It makes you pay a price based on an inexplicable idea introduced by the main villains in the last five minutes of the game. There is no direct connection between what you built towards and what happens, the Reaper's AI ghost kid boss just goes "By the way, robots will kill everyone. Destroy the Mass Relays because I said so." It doesn't examine what is really happening in the universe or people wouldn't be so pissed off about their choices being invalidated. It is a mindless literally-ripped-from-the-Matrix twist introduced at the last minute that has no connection to anything else and is directly contradicted by more than one plot in the same game.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:46 |
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ME3 is the JFK assassination of gaming.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:46 |
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DentArthurDent posted:Yes, a scene that happens a few hours of gameplay after an extinct Prothean tells you the Reapers exterminated their race, have been doing that for ever, and are now coming for you, with no hope of stopping them. I loved the ending of the first game, but the fact that ME3 goes beyond the action movie cliches to examine the consequences of what's really happening to the universe, and makes you pay a high price for victory, is not a weakness in my book.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:47 |
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thumb posted:I suggest you read the first post in this thread: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/t.../index/10022779 Doctor Spaceman posted:There is no Paragon ending. That alone is a bit of a problem.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:47 |
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Jarmel posted:It's not like we're having a serious intellectual discussion with the creators on how they hosed up, and they did. Instead they seem content to just let people guess at all the plotholes that they created. This ending was straight up disrespectful for any fan of the franchise. They should have seen this coming and if they did, well it's on them then. Yeah, any and all plot speculation was cleared out within 24 hours of the ending first hitting the floor. All the speculation after that has been along the lines of "what in Christ's name went wrong here"
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:47 |
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I wouldn't have a problem with the Mass Relays being destroyed if it had been hinted at or foreshadowed in really any way. Scientists saying the Crucible works on the relay network in some way they're trying to figure out. Even without that, just add a line where (if you have enough war readiness) Shep gets to say "Everyone get out of the Sol system the RELAYS ARE GOING DOWN!" and that would have fixed my biggest problem with the ending right there. I still wouldn't like the ending, but I wouldn't be actively angry about it.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:47 |
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homeless snail posted:Let's not forget the ending of Mass Effect 1 where Shepard triumphantly stands above Saren's corpse and then poses for the movie poster. Yeah, Mass Effect is grimdark as gently caress. That is an ugly Shepard. That ending was one of my favourite moments of Mass Effect just because Wrex looks so ridiculously happy that Shepard was alive. I liked how in 3 Wrex is a little bit more goofy. Also Anderson gives the best speeches. An Anderson speech would have been a great Mass Effect 3 ending, especially if they somehow had him sum up what was going to happen based on your choices. I do however think you have to take into account Mass Effect 2 is a bit more grim than the first game was. Especially if you make a single mistake. I took a LONG time getting to the collector base my first playthrough and that turned out awful. Even if you're perfect you're still working for a human terrorist organisation, lots plenty of humans to the Collectors and the true threat still lies ahead.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:47 |
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DentArthurDent posted:I loved the ending of the first game, but the fact that ME3 goes beyond the action movie cliches to examine the consequences of what's really happening to the universe, and makes you pay a high price for victory, is not a weakness in my book.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:48 |
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el_brio posted:I need some advice guys.... The Pc version gives you 60 fps, the PS3 version goes down to 15 at times. Also the loading times are 10-20 times longer. Eurogamer did a full analysis of it.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:48 |
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Jarmel posted:Tell me how do you fix an ending that retcons all of ME1? The only way out is the indoctrination theory, which is just a more advanced 'it's all a dream'. Not to mention the way it breaks already established canon such as the whole Normandy bit. I disagree. You fix the ending by changing everything that happens after Shepard goes up the glowy elevator. You rewrite that entire scene. Shepard confronts Harbinger, instead of the kid. There is an ensuing struggle, wherein Harbinger attempts to kill or dissuade Shepard from activating the Crucible. Shepard, depending on her war assets, is able to distract Harbinger with enough firepower to activate the Crucible, which destroys the reapers in the most epic manner possible. Follow with view of results on galaxy, crew, and so on.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:48 |
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DentArthurDent posted:Yes, a scene that happens a few hours of gameplay after an extinct Prothean tells you the Reapers exterminated their race, have been doing that for ever, and are now coming for you, with no hope of stopping them. I loved the ending of the first game, but the fact that ME3 goes beyond the action movie cliches to examine the consequences of what's really happening to the universe, and makes you pay a high price for victory, is not a weakness in my book. Ah yes. I, too, agree that Star Wars was too loving campy and unrealistic and for children because gently caress happy endings Luke and co. should've all died because they were up against impossible odds and seeing them succeed is just too easy. You can't have success and victory ever, you NEED to always have a tragic downside in every ending.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:49 |
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Sombrerotron posted:Curiously enough, the game creates a strong impression that choosing to control the Reapers -despite being TIM's idea - is actually the Paragon thing to do, what with the blue colour and all and the fact that the red-coloured alternative entails annihilating not just the Reapers, but all synthetic life in the galaxy. Being green, synthesis is presumably the neutral thing to do. I chose Control for that reason (my Shepard was Paragon). It's doesn't at all fit with the general theme of those choices, it's just that it's less poo poo than Destroy, and less retarded than Synthesis.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:49 |
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ImpAtom posted:If you follow the lore at all, "just the Mass Relays" is like saying "Well, things go on just fine on Earth after the oceans vanished." The Mass Relays are basically the most important thing in the setting. (Which is probably why they decided to destroy them while breaking the toybox because nothing else would have the same impact, not even blowing up Earth.) They're important to the setting. Are they important to people continuing to be alive and have societies? Yes, but not on the order of basic natural resources like the sea. Blowing up the Relays doesn't mean everyone on Earth is going to starve and die - the population of Earth post-war is probably pretty comparable to our population in present day real life, and while we're far from perfect on the "everyone has enough to eat" front, we are as a species getting along without intergalactic food drops. quote:The entire point of setting up Eve and Wrex as the leaders is that the Krogans wanted to become part of an intergalactic society and prove their worth. As it stands Wrex is trapped in Sol for an unknown period of time and Eve is now forced to try to hold the clans together on the ruined remains of their homeworld with a suddenly influx of breeding and without the ability to actually become part of intergalactic society as they hoped. It's a pretty poo poo ending aside from "Well, they can have babies now." Eve in specific wanted to work to return Tuchanka to the way it was before the nuclear war - a developed and fairly healthy modern society. I can't imagine she'd mind much being locked off from intergalactic prominence if she had the freedom to pursue that goal. Wreav, sure, he's gonna be pissed. Wrex I haven't seen in ME3, so I cannot say!
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:49 |
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thumb posted:I disagree. You fix the ending by changing everything that happens after Shepard goes up the glowy elevator. You rewrite that entire scene. Shepard confronts Harbinger, instead of the kid. There is an ensuing struggle, wherein Harbinger attempts to kill or dissuade Shepard from activating the Crucible. Shepard, depending on her war assets, is able to distract Harbinger with enough firepower to activate the Crucible, which destroys the reapers in the most epic manner possible. Follow with view of results on galaxy, crew, and so on. So you do a very hard retcon. That's not fixing the ending, that's completely rewriting it.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:50 |
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DentArthurDent posted:Yes, a scene that happens a few hours of gameplay after an extinct Prothean tells you the Reapers exterminated their race, have been doing that for ever, and are now coming for you, with no hope of stopping them. I loved the ending of the first game, but the fact that ME3 goes beyond the action movie cliches to examine the consequences of what's really happening to the universe, and makes you pay a high price for victory, is not a weakness in my book.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:51 |
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Sombrerotron posted:Curiously enough, the game creates a strong impression that choosing to control the Reapers -despite being TIM's idea - is actually the Paragon thing to do, what with the blue colour and all and the fact that the red-coloured alternative entails annihilating not just the Reapers, but all synthetic life in the galaxy. Being green, synthesis is presumably the neutral thing to do. You could make that argument given what you do with the Geth as a paragon. You rewrite them, taking a degree of control over their minds. It's also demonstrated to have been a bad idea, if for unexpected reasons. Heaven knows what controlling the reapers might do.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:51 |
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DentArthurDent posted:If you cured the genophage, then...you cured the genophage. I never said it affected one of the endings. I said it was a choice you made during the game, that was not undone by most of the endings. Why is this difficult to understand? You cured the genophage and most krogans are stranded on earth unable to reproduce anyway.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:51 |
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Android Blues posted:They're important to the setting. Are they important to people continuing to be alive and have societies? Yes, but not on the order of basic natural resources like the sea. Blowing up the Relays doesn't mean everyone on Earth is going to starve and die - the population of Earth post-war is probably pretty comparable to our population in present day real life, and while we're far from perfect on the "everyone has enough to eat" front, we are as a species getting along without intergalactic food drops. The thing is that Earth in ME universe is not our Earth. Its natural resources were very used up in ME. We're already approaching a situation where all our resources are pretty hosed in actual modern day Earth, let alone fantasy sci-fi Earth where it is already established resources are hosed and now they have the combined fleets of most of the galaxy stuck on their doorstep. The ending of ME3 isn't as bad if you ignore all the lore, but nobody should be asked to do that. If the writers can't keep the lore straight that is their problem, not the viewers who are encouraged to find as much lore as possible. Android Blues posted:Eve in specific wanted to work to return Tuchanka to the way it was before the nuclear war - a developed and fairly healthy modern society. I can't imagine she'd mind much being locked off from intergalactic prominence if she had the freedom to pursue that goal. Wreav, sure, he's gonna be pissed. Wrex I haven't seen in ME3, so I cannot say! Uh, well. The thing is that if Wrex is the leader they actually have a different goal than that. Bakara and Wrex both want to make the Krogans part of intergalactic society, that is their stated goal. Wrex even cheerfully talks about earning a seat on the council. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at Mar 16, 2012 around 17:56 |
| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:52 |
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Jarmel posted:So you do a very hard retcon. That's not fixing the ending, that's completely rewriting it.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:52 |
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Jarmel posted:So you do a very hard retcon. That's not fixing the ending, that's completely rewriting it. Everything after TIM and Anderson can't be fixed without massive rewriting.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:53 |
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NmareBfly posted:Even without that, just add a line where (if you have enough war readiness) Shep gets to say "Everyone get out of the Sol system the RELAYS ARE GOING DOWN!"
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:53 |
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DentArthurDent posted:Yes, a scene that happens a few hours of gameplay after an extinct Prothean tells you the Reapers exterminated their race, have been doing that for ever, and are now coming for you, with no hope of stopping them. I loved the ending of the first game, but the fact that ME3 goes beyond the action movie cliches to examine the consequences of what's really happening to the universe, and makes you pay a high price for victory, is not a weakness in my book. If there had been horrendous consequences based on the actions that you've undertaken for the past 3 games (Basically by making most of the renegade decisions be incredibly shortsighted, unfortunately), it would be one thing. But because every ending is essentially the same no matter how well you've prepared or how good your decision making was removes all incentive to think through the consequences of your actions or to even make them in the first place. If you want the minimum non-destroy earth ending you can make horrible decisions that kill everyone you interact with, wreck whole species, and cause the deaths of many who believed in your leadership. Really, the equivalent ending to what we got is if Halo 3 ended with all of the Halo rings going off, completely negating any of your actions in the previous 3 games.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:54 |
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Yeah, I don't understand why they didnt just follow ME2's ending. Choose which forces to protect your flank! Will those Turians hold the line? Better have Captain Kirrahe and his STG commandoes help them out! Do you have part of the space fleet disengage the Reapers in order to conduct orbital bombardment of the planet? Can the Volus bombers get the job done instead? Have Ashley get herself killed trying to lead those ragged Alliance Marines! Y'know poo poo like that would have been exciting, and then it wouldn't have been Shepard sacrificing him/herself but having to choose who lives and dies, without the option to save everyone. PhantomZero fucked around with this message at Mar 16, 2012 around 17:59 |
| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:54 |
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Jarmel posted:So you do a very hard retcon. That's not fixing the ending, that's completely rewriting it. I'm not sure why the ending as it stands is sacrosanct? Plenty of movies have had their endings changed, with the original included as a DVD special feature. Sometimes the original ending is better, sometimes it's way worse. Why isn't a Director's Cut DLC an option?
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:55 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 21:08 |
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NmareBfly posted:Even without that, just add a line where (if you have enough war readiness) Shep gets to say "Everyone get out of the Sol system the RELAYS ARE GOING DOWN!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9-Te-DPbSE
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 17:55 |
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