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What's funny is Garrus was supposed to be your renegade character throughout the games but he softens up on your paragon plays. Even Javik softens up a little bit. Also, I like how everyone misspells Kaidan. And where did "Jarvik" come from?
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:10 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 01:00 |
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Red Dragon posted:I vaguely considered the plausibility of getting a few tons of metal, accelerating it to light speed and pointing it at a reaper. I don't think they'd survive that, but it would probably be bad news for any planets they were on at the time. This is actually mentioned in the codex - failsafes preventing light speed drives from being used like that are integral to and inseparable from their design, which the codex also mentions is largely derived from Prothean (i.e. Reaper) blueprints. So the Reapers anticipated that tactic being used against them, and made sure the lightspeed drives they planted in the galactic playground simply couldn't do it. There's also a planet in one of the systems around which scientists were building a bunch of supercolliders just before the Reaper invasion, and it's mentioned in the description that that was one of the first places hit and the Reapers devoted extraordinary amounts of attention to completely destroying basically large-scale lab test equipment. So it seems like a safe bet that that tactic really can screw them over, they know it, and they do everything they can to rule it out as a threat. Android Blues fucked around with this message at Mar 17, 2012 around 22:14 |
| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:12 |
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Axialbloom posted:I'm sort of the opposite. Why bother getting invested in this beautifully realised universe and all its characters if everything you do and experienced is just going to be discounted and invalidated by a 3 button choice? Where the series used to be about fighting against the odds is now just tinged with futility. Well for myself at any rate (and I guess about 45 thousand other fans). This is partially how I feel, just because of how well the characterization and story moments were done otherwise. It's so good, and then, ahh, crap. One change, just don't blow up the goddamned mass relays, and I'd have been a little more satisfied with it, if that's just how it's gonna end. Heroic sacrifice fits right in with the (well done, in my opinion, but still) space opera schlock fantasy. I mean, you kind of expect it, it's the end of the trilogy. But why undo the entire framework of the thing at the same time? It makes it hard for any of the moments before to be meaningful, when they really seemed like it at the time - all the stuff you have to do to set up Tuchanka, from saving Wrex to making the right choices on Mordin's loyalty mission, to the actions in ME3 - a bunch of things you can totally gently caress up, but if you play it heroically, you get a heroic ending (complete with another character's own shlocky but moving heroic sacrifice). Still pretty bad choices at the end, but the mass relays just gone takes the cake. There's plenty of foreshadowing that Shep's not gonna make it through this one, but why does he take the whole galaxy with him when he goes? I just don't get it at all. There's the whole dropped dark energy/bad suns thing, but I can't get behind the writing of the ending at all. At the same time I feel like there's zero credibility to the various interpretations of the ending which make it somehow not real, or allow for the possibility of anything but a total retcon new ending. That just has the feel of people scrambling to ascribe meaning to something empty - and if Bioware staff play along, them leaving damage control options open to see if the hate dies off or not. I'm already disappointed in the ending, I'm not really capable of being more disappointed in it, so I'm not saying I'd feel like they're loving up worse if the retcon it to be even just slightly less lovely, but I do feel like it'll be a re-write ending if they do, for it to make any sense at all. I don't think there's a framework here for a reasonable segue into a less dissatisfying ending. Without a rewrite, what do you get? If you had the same choices except mass relays just used as a delivery mechanism rather than being destroyed and galactic civilization not hosed, it'd still leave you with three pretty bad endings. It'd make synthesis a bad ending (seriously, whaaaaat?), control a better ending that still sucks but hey at least it fixes the reaper issue, and destruction of all synthetic life... Another bad ending, because god drat that's stupid, even within the context of just ME3. What do the peaceful Geth and Quarians or friendly AIs like EDI have to do with the Reapers? They're their own thing, why not just an option to destroy all of them? I mean they're the problem, fix 'em and leave other life alone. Jeez. What crappy options.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:13 |
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CaptainCarrot posted:I'm pretty sure that Destroy does not reset all technological progress—everything based on Reaper tech goes away, but that still sets us at Earth circa 2150 AD, not BC. I'd still like to know why the reaper code in the Geth and EDI can kill them if you pick destroy, but not cause them to become brainwashed if you picked control.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:13 |
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Android Blues posted:This is actually mentioned in the codex - failsafes preventing light speed drives from being used like that are integral to and inseparable from their design, which the codex also mentions is largely derived from Prothean (i.e. Reaper) blueprints. So the Reapers anticipated that tactic being used against them, and made sure the lightspeed drives they planted in the galactic playground simply couldn't do it. They also do mention Turians strapping bombs to themselves on Palaven and surrendering to Reapers to be taken inside to be indoctrinated, and then setting them off.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:14 |
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Ignorant Hick posted:I'd still like to know why the reaper code in the Geth and EDI can kill them if you pick destroy, but not cause them to become brainwashed if you picked control. What happened to that picture of the little kid in the wizard costume? That would be appropriate here I think.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:14 |
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Frogisis posted:They also do mention Turians strapping bombs to themselves on Palaven and surrendering to Reapers to be taken inside to be indoctrinated, and then setting them off. Well that's just the saddest thing :\
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:17 |
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MadRhetoric posted:I thought the ending mainly failed in a technical sense and was cool with it but I emptied at least two clips in that little rear end out of spite. Odd thing about that, you don't have to reload your gun in the end, you can just fire a bajillion shots without reloading. If you reload the final save, which is just after you're hit by the beam from Harbinger, you can actually start shooting then and there. As in while still getting on your feet, and leaning on the hand holding the gun and poo poo, you can shoot bullets everywhere!  On the other hand...maybe this means everything after you get hit by the beam is a dream, since only in a dream can you have a gun not running out of bullets?
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:23 |
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Valle posted:On the other hand...maybe this means everything after you get hit by the beam is a dream, since only in a dream can you have a gun not running out of bullets? Well, a dream or Mass Effect 1!
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:24 |
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Ignorant Hick posted:I'd still like to know why the reaper code in the Geth and EDI can kill them if you pick destroy, but not cause them to become brainwashed if you picked control. Reaper code is not part of it. The "Destroy" ending destroys all synthetic life it reaches as part of its operation. Of course, future synthetic life can still be created, but that's the future's problem. "Control" does not control all synthetic life, just the reapers. Also, while supporting EDI and the Geth absolutely shows hope for the long-term cooperation of organic and synthetic life, it doesn't disprove assertions that the peace can't last. Like someone else said, it's a larger scale case of the problem with the dalatrass and with all the other similarly paranoid species. "Yes, but just because things are good now doesn't mean they'll stay that way, we need to keep them down or they'll stab us in the back!" If that sounds wrong, you've discovered why the Reapers are the villains. If you also understand why someone might think that way even though you disagree, you also have some empathy. Javik had some great things to say on why exactly he felt that organic and synthetic life were incompatible in the long term, even if his conclusion was wrong. Really, while I don't mind day 1 DLC in principle, his seems so vital to the storyline making sense that I can't imagine playing the game without him, and that is a problem.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:24 |
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Frogisis posted:They also do mention Turians strapping bombs to themselves on Palaven and surrendering to Reapers to be taken inside to be indoctrinated, and then setting them off. If only the Reapers had a TSA to protect them...
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:27 |
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Killer robot posted:I go through my life knowing that everyone I ever cared about will die some day, and I will probably see them for the last time before that happens. Doesn't mean my choices with them don't matter. I think the term, "some day" is the big thing here. Yeah, I won't always have my folks or my friends around and any of them may die any time, but if I knew, tomorrow that it was absolutely, unavoidably guaranteed 100% that the world was going to explode, why would I care about working my arse off at my job, learning a new skill or pursuing any long-term goals? Everything you do in the game that is long term, including building alliances, healing old wounds and washing away bad blood between implacable enemies is pointless when you know without any doubt that they will never be in a position to grow closer, apart, succeed or fail, let bygones be bygones or collapse into old rivalries when they are all going to die and/or be permanently cut off from each other. You could argue till the cows come home that they probably will survive somehow in the ruins of galactic society or "life finds a way" but that's not what I'm fighting for when I bring the Quarians and Geth together, cure the Genophage and foster a sense of hope and glactic unity in the disparate races.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:28 |
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Android Blues posted:This is actually mentioned in the codex - failsafes preventing light speed drives from being used like that are integral to and inseparable from their design, which the codex also mentions is largely derived from Prothean (i.e. Reaper) blueprints. So the Reapers anticipated that tactic being used against them, and made sure the lightspeed drives they planted in the galactic playground simply couldn't do it. Well, I'm pretty sure - given enough energy - the Alliance could make a pretty bitchin' railgun really quick, but eh, whatever. Nice to see someone gave some thought to it. Also, I don't know how many recordings of TIM were around, but I'm pretty sure that fuckoff great star gave a few clues to his whereabouts.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:29 |
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PiCroft posted:I think the term, "some day" is the big thing here. Yeah, I won't always have my folks or my friends around and any of them may die any time, but if I knew, tomorrow that it was absolutely, unavoidably guaranteed 100% that the world was going to explode, why would I care about working my arse off at my job, learning a new skill or pursuing any long-term goals? Everything you do in the game that is long term, including building alliances, healing old wounds and washing away bad blood between implacable enemies is pointless when you know without any doubt that they will never be in a position to grow closer, apart, succeed or fail, let bygones be bygones or collapse into old rivalries when they are all going to die and/or be permanently cut off from each other. Good thing that it's never guaranteed that the whole world will explode, isn't it? Instead, that a whole lot of bad things are going to happen, and I have a chance to make right with people I'm probably not going to see again, and put the ones that come through the other side on the right footing to recover. How does this possibly translate to "does not matter?"
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:31 |
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Wait, does Destroy specify 'synthetic life'? Because if that's the case, there's no reason Shepherd, the Citadel or any of the fleets took any damage. Earth's still screwed re the mass relays and everyone in orbit but it's not knocking us back to the stone age at all. Humanity was hardly using synthetic life, assuming VIs don't count and even then, it's not that bad. We've still got computers, cars- all that good stuff. Destroy continues to be the least-hosed ending.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:31 |
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Killer robot posted:Javik had some great things to say on why exactly he felt that organic and synthetic life were incompatible in the long term, even if his conclusion was wrong. Really, while I don't mind day 1 DLC in principle, his seems so vital to the storyline making sense that I can't imagine playing the game without him, and that is a problem. Yeah, I bought the fancy edition preorder through Origin and really enjoyed having Javik along - he is an extremely well fleshed out character and offers a totally different perspective on events, it's not just a weapon pack or some poo poo that DLC Quest makes fun of, he's genuinely a huge part of the story arc if you have access to him, and treating him as optional for money is a dick move on Bioware's part. Day 1 DLC in general is really annoying but I can't afford to complain much because I support the poo poo with my wallet, once that's done might as well just not bring it up for all they have any reason to care since I've demonstrated that my money isn't where my mouth is. That stupid dog is stupid, though, and the hoodie is also stupid. Yeah, great, my Shep's falling apart mentally because of the weight of the horrors he's seen, and thanks to a stupid DLC I got now he can look the part too. They should add DLC sweatpants and maybe some cheeto-stained finger textures to go with it, $5 on Origin today 
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:34 |
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:Wait, does Destroy specify 'synthetic life'? Yeah. It's genocide against EDI and the Geth, but if you didn't like them it's win-win. Control saves all of them, but you personally can't survive, so if you like your robot friends you can give them a new chance too at your own cost.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:34 |
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messagemode1 posted:If only the Reapers had a TSA to protect them... They tried that but all that processed organic goo on board is way more than 3 oz. Maybe we can get them to release a DLC that just includes a 4th option to not destroy the civilization we've been trying to save this whole time. E: I get that maybe from a narrative point of view the Citadel had to go because it's tainted by association, and so maybe the mass relays do too, but then at least drop that the Crucible also spits out plans for a new relay, or can be converted into one, or something, so that there's an opportunity for all these people to actually have the future Shepard fought to give them. Frogisis fucked around with this message at Mar 17, 2012 around 22:41 |
| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:34 |
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Killer robot posted:Good thing that it's never guaranteed that the whole world will explode, isn't it? Instead, that a whole lot of bad things are going to happen, and I have a chance to make right with people I'm probably not going to see again, and put the ones that come through the other side on the right footing to recover. How does this possibly translate to "does not matter?" ...I'm not following here. No, it's not guaranteed that the whole world will explode tomorrow in real life. However, you could argue that it comes quite close in literally every ending currently in the game. The absolute best possible scenarios still have Galactic Society collapsing into Anarchy and a relative dark age no matter what you do, so yeah, the things you do in preparation for that final choice lose all meaning at the end. They had meaning earlier in the game where they could change the story, but they can't change anything in the final moments. That's the whole point of contention here.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:36 |
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:Wait, does Destroy specify 'synthetic life'? Could've sworn the kid said that destroy would also destroy most of the tech you rely on. Which makes me wonder how the hell the Normandy crash-landed in one piece, since it just became a flying brick.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:38 |
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BrianWilly posted:Virtually everything the Catalyst tells you is inconsistent with the hours upon hours of content you just played. The Illusive Man was trying to control the Reapers while under the effects of indoctrination - the game repeatedly tells you this. The Reapers wouldn't have let the Crucible dock with the Citadel if he won over Anderson and Shepard. If there was an ending where TIM ends up talking to the Catalyst, that would've been a huge mindfuck. The Geth/Quarian conflict showed you that the Catalyst's premise is incorrect. You're right that his words contradict what you've experienced earlier with the Geth and Quarians. But it's never established that the Catalyst was infallible/omnipotent. I know this might sound like a cop out, but that just means that the spacekid has been wrong for centuries. Isn't that a tragedy? The Destroy ending gets even better since you can delete the Catalyst from existence.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:38 |
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Killer robot posted:Reaper code is not part of it. The "Destroy" ending destroys all synthetic life it reaches as part of its operation. Of course, future synthetic life can still be created, but that's the future's problem. "Control" does not control all synthetic life, just the reapers. Which is just dumb. If you can set off a pulse/beam/signal/whatever that controls all synthetic life, destroys all synthetic life, or does space magic to anything living - there's no way to just go "Disable all synthetic life." You control just the Reapers? Why not destroy just the Reapers? Based on how Sovereign was defeated in ME1 and (what I thought to be) foreshadowing in the labs on Sanctum, combined with seeing the Reaper code in the Geth conciousness, I figured the Crucible was something to do with how the Reapers communicated and using it to make them vulnerable. The size of your EMS informed how successful you were when the Reapers "shields-were-down". Axialbloom fucked around with this message at Mar 17, 2012 around 22:41 |
| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:39 |
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r1ngwthszzors posted:But it's never established that the Catalyst was infallible/omnipotent. I know this might sound like a cop out, but that just means that the spacekid has been wrong for centuries. Isn't that a tragedy? The Destroy ending gets even better since you can delete the Catalyst from existence. And yet you're not allowed to argue with him, despite countless other people being wrong for their entire lives being people you can argue with so hard they commit suicide. It's stupid to suddenly have the character believe this ridiculous AI sci-fi kid.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:40 |
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Spiritus Nox posted:...I'm not following here. No, it's not guaranteed that the whole world will explode tomorrow in real life. However, you could argue that it comes quite close in literally every ending currently in the game. The absolute best possible scenarios still have Galactic Society collapsing into Anarchy and a relative dark age no matter what you do, so yeah, the things you do in preparation for that final choice lose all meaning at the end. They had meaning earlier in the game where they could change the story, but they can't change anything in the final moments. That's the whole point of contention here. With the people you touched along the way being precisely the ones who are going to address and build out of that dark age: that's why what you do with them and what lessons you teach by example mean even more, the stakes are higher than they even looked before. What you do once you go through the conduit is make sure that they survive even to have a fall to build back from. The choices matter immensely, even if they don't involve seeing Wrex's grandkids.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:42 |
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Now I'm wondering if the red explosion affects VI's, or if its a "Does this unit have a soul?"-seeking missile. I don't understand.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:42 |
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Ignorant Hick posted:Now I'm wondering if the red explosion affects VI's, or if its a "Does this unit have a soul?"-seeking missile.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:44 |
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Killer robot posted:With the people you touched along the way being precisely the ones who are going to address and build out of that dark age: that's why what you do with them and what lessons you teach by example mean even more, the stakes are higher than they even looked before. What you do once you go through the conduit is make sure that they survive even to have a fall to build back from. The choices matter immensely, even if they don't involve seeing Wrex's grandkids. All right, now I'm following you. I see where you're coming from here and I can't say it's...completely wrong. I still say it's stupid and bull-headed to end the series like this, with vast amounts of game-changing info revealed literally in the final conversation and the game refusing to actually acknowledge your choices and provide exactly the kind of catharsis basically everyone who goes into a finale expecting and hoping to see.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:45 |
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Sombrerotron posted:VIs aren't sapient, so I would guess they aren't affected. They can become sapient and/or go rogue. See: EDI.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:45 |
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It's best not to examine those details closely because the writers clearly didn't.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:46 |
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r1ngwthszzors posted:The Illusive Man was trying to control the Reapers while under the effects of indoctrination - the game repeatedly tells you this. The Reapers wouldn't have let the Crucible dock with the Citadel if he won over Anderson and Shepard. If there was an ending where TIM ends up talking to the Catalyst, that would've been a huge mindfuck. Exactly. The Catalyst is an ancient godlike entity like the Reapers themselves. Like them, not omnipotent or infallible, merely beyond organic intelligence and conventional strength. Like them, he was wrong, he was the villain. And thanks to the Crucible achieving its objective you have him helpless before you and able to do nothing but tell you what options the Crucible was able to force-program into him. Never mind that he doesn't like it. I don't care if he likes it.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:47 |
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Killer robot posted:Good thing that it's never guaranteed that the whole world will explode, isn't it? Instead, that a whole lot of bad things are going to happen, and I have a chance to make right with people I'm probably not going to see again, and put the ones that come through the other side on the right footing to recover. How does this possibly translate to "does not matter?" My choices are: Kill all synthetic life and break apart the galaxy. Invalidates every Geth and Synthetic-related action, totally out of character for a Paragon Shepard. Take control of Reapers and break apart the galaxy. People have already mentioned this, but this is literally what TIM tried to do 30 seconds prior and is something I've fought tooth and nail against him trying to do right up to either killing him, or getting him to kill himself. This choice literally makes me go, after a pitched war against Cerberus and fighting against TIM's indoctrinated attempts to control the Reapers, "Huh, guess he was right, welp here goes nothing" Synthesis, which is so dumb I don't even consider it an ending. Again, this involves simply accepting the Reaper-God's choice at face value, no argument no struggle and breaking up the galaxy. I spent 3 games fighting a war to capitulate to a Reaper kid and accept his choice at face value and break apart a galaxy I tried to save, for no other reason than writer fiat.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:48 |
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Killer robot posted:Exactly. The Catalyst is an ancient godlike entity like the Reapers themselves. Like them, not omnipotent or infallible, merely beyond organic intelligence and conventional strength. Like them, he was wrong, he was the villain. And thanks to the Crucible achieving its objective you have him helpless before you and able to do nothing but tell you what options the Crucible was able to force-program into him. Never mind that he doesn't like it. I don't care if he likes it. Except every option it is made for works off the assumption he is correct, so... no. He got exactly what he wanted from every ending or believes you've doomed everyone. Why wouldn't he like it? You never argue with him.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:48 |
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r1ngwthszzors posted:The Illusive Man was trying to control the Reapers while under the effects of indoctrination - the game repeatedly tells you this. The Reapers wouldn't have let the Crucible dock with the Citadel if he won over Anderson and Shepard. If there was an ending where TIM ends up talking to the Catalyst, that would've been a huge mindfuck. I like to think that co-operation between synthetics and organics (if not the geth, then EDI, who gradually takes on organic traits over the course of the game but is also invaluable to Shepard's success on multiple occasions due to her synthetic nature) is the vital lynchpin that makes it possible for this iteration of the cycle to activate the Crucible at all. It works thematically: it always ends the same way, but you've changed this one vital thing and that's proof enough that maybe we can try something new. Theoretically the starchild's people could have gone with the big green Synthesis button at any time, but they didn't know it would be a good idea until they had a proof of concept for synthetics and organics actually achieving unity and benefiting from each others' inherent traits. Synthesis feels like the clear "next step" ending to me, and the game does build it up a lot. Shepard is half-machine, half-human, for instance, and as such could be seen as a living expression of the ideal. EDI as mentioned progresses along that axis through the game. The geth and the quarians can come to terms, and the geth exhibit the acquisition of organic traits in a few ways, too, while the quarians are a unanimously transhuman (transquarian) species. It could be foreshadowed better, maybe, but there is a fair chunk of foreshadowing present for the Synthesis ending. Android Blues fucked around with this message at Mar 17, 2012 around 22:52 |
| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:48 |
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So I just finished the game trying to actively avoid spoilers. Wow...that ending was terrible.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:49 |
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Kainser posted:You'd think they react to seeing a race they've never seen or heard of either way though. I thought about this, too, but I just figured that, if I spent a ton of time someplace like the citadel, id be desensitized to seeing freakish aliens everywhere, too. If anything, id imagine people would maintain a respectful distance from a new race as not to overwhelm them. Either way, it didn't bother me.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:51 |
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PiCroft posted:Synthesis, which is so dumb I don't even consider it an ending. Again, this involves simply accepting the Reaper-God's choice at face value, no argument no struggle and breaking up the galaxy. Considering Shepherd is probably biologically dead at the point he/she is given the choice, what decision would you expect (male characters look unconscious when they're 'beamed up', but females are clearly dead)? Also reaper kid is holding all the cards. If you're going to resist, then the reapers are just going to kill everyone anyway.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:52 |
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Killer robot posted:With the people you touched along the way being precisely the ones who are going to address and build out of that dark age: that's why what you do with them and what lessons you teach by example mean even more, the stakes are higher than they even looked before. What you do once you go through the conduit is make sure that they survive even to have a fall to build back from. The choices matter immensely, even if they don't involve seeing Wrex's grandkids. That's what makes a snippet of Joker and other crew members (maybe) on a jungle planet(?) even more out of place. Either go with the full epilogue or don't. In this case "know your audience" comes to mind. I will say though your explanations of the Godboy and reasoning's on the ending are the most coherent and logical I've yet read and definitely provide me with food for thought. Axialbloom fucked around with this message at Mar 17, 2012 around 22:54 |
| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:52 |
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OhSnapGangsta posted:So I just finished the game trying to actively avoid spoilers. Wow...that ending was terrible. I know, right?
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:52 |
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ImpAtom posted:They can become sapient and/or go rogue. See: EDI.
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:52 |
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| # ? May 19, 2013 01:00 |
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BrianWilly posted:Virtually everything the Catalyst tells you is inconsistent with the hours upon hours of content you just played. The Catalyst is also inconsistent with itself. "I know you want to destroy us Shepard, but that's bad. Do these other things instead. I'm going to give you the option to destroy us anyway, just to be a nice little boy though. But don't do it!"
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| # ? Mar 17, 2012 22:53 |
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