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Aristobulus posted:I can't play Renegade Shepard, it's just too loving evil. Between that, shooting Mordin in the back, and executing Shiala, it's just jesus, how do you ever think of that guy as a hero? It seems like you'd have to be pretty hosed up to even sympathize with his motivations yourself. It helps to think of him as one of those 90s X-TREME comic book heroes with a grimdark past and a gun with a sword on it. Then Mass Effect 2 comes along and he even gets the trademark Liefeld glowing eye.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:35 |
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| # ? May 22, 2013 04:06 |
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Young Freud posted:poo poo, when's the next major release? Is it Diablo 3? The Witcher 2 Enhanced Edition. loving "gaming media" is going to poo poo a brick because among other things they are changing the ENDING.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:36 |
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Yes, but somewhere between 2 and 3, Shepard went from "John McClane on a bad day" to "history's greatest monster".
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:36 |
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Ambiguatron posted:Yes, but somewhere between 2 and 3, Shepard went from "John McClane on a bad day" to "history's greatest monster". I don't care how much you believe that the ends justify the means, any solution that ends with you shoving Wrex's bullet-riddled corpse out a high window is not a solution at all.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:38 |
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Ambiguatron posted:Yes, but somewhere between 2 and 3, Shepard went from "John McClane on a bad day" to "history's greatest monster". I still think the most pointless and evil thing you can do is take Morinth. Renegade Shepard does some pretty horrible poo poo, but at least there's some logic behind it. Taking Morinth is literally stupid and evil.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:41 |
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Riso posted:The Witcher 2 Enhanced Edition. DOOOOM! Seriously, I have come to the conclusion- art is NOT immutable, not in any form. Analogy time: You hired a renowned artist (BioWare is generally known as being a developer of good games) to come and paint a self portrait of you. Every time you check up on it, it's looking good. Then when he finishes, you look at it and he gave you demon eyes or something equally ridiculous. You're furious, you demand he repaint the eyes (since only the eyes are terrible), but he throws down his paintbrush and screams at you that that's HIS interpretation of you and is therefore immutable. What are you going to do? You're going to throw that shithead out and never hire him again.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:42 |
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Internet Kraken posted:I still think the most pointless and evil thing you can do is take Morinth. Renegade Shepard does some pretty horrible poo poo, but at least there's some logic behind it. Taking Morinth is literally stupid and evil. Taking Morinth actually does have some twisted logic behind it. Samara makes it clear that she'll be out for a Renegade Shepard's blood if they both survive the suicide mission, so offing her and replacing her with her daughter is a nice, consequence-free way of avoiding that predicament. So long as you don't try to embrace eternity with her.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:42 |
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I usually don't play as a renegade, but it has its moments http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...jTuSQNLI4#t=84s and http://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...a4wfum_SY#t=23s
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:50 |
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Oxxidation posted:Taking Morinth actually does have some twisted logic behind it. Samara makes it clear that she'll be out for a Renegade Shepard's blood if they both survive the suicide mission, so offing her and replacing her with her daughter is a nice, consequence-free way of avoiding that predicament. So long as you don't try to embrace eternity with her. Though if you're that kind of Shepard, you'd think that making sure she doesn't come back from the suicide mission would be a more useful plan than killing her to recruit someone you don't know will even stick with you long enough to go on one. It doesn't much sound like Morinth's style. I mean, I liked choosing her on a renegade playthrough to get her power and see her conversation options after, but it still felt like one of the more "Renegade choice is objectively worse even if you're a callous bastard" parts of the series.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:51 |
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I took Morinth because I didn't want +25 Paragon points 
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:52 |
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Oxxidation posted:I don't care how much you believe that the ends justify the means, any solution that ends with you shoving Wrex's bullet-riddled corpse out a high window is not a solution at all. Renegade Shepard is practical, and is more inclined to punch or shoot someone if they get in her way, but she doesn't kill just for the sake of killing. She also doesn't really care for underhanded business.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:53 |
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Durzel posted:I took Morinth because I didn't want +25 Paragon points This right here is why the whole diametric system of "ethics" and the system measuring your record was never a good idea. Edit: To clarify, I played renegade and enjoyed her hardline pragmatist character most of the time, but there are definitely times where she creeps into evil territory and I feel obligated to follow her just to build those points.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:53 |
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Smart Car posted:
That's what she's supposed to be, but Bioware has never really been able to completely break out of the good/evil mold that worked so well for them in Baldur's Gate and KOTOR. There's a few Renegade moments that are just comically evil as opposed to the dirty cop/vigilante options that are so awesome during the series.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:58 |
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Phylodox posted:Well a) there's only so much nuance you can fit in 140 characters and b) gently caress them, we're under no obligation to spare their feelings. At this point, no one is trying to convince them of anything because it's pointless. Either they know how corrupt they are or they're just genuinely ignorant fanboys. Either way, there's no possibility of rational discourse there. The way that you've framed this discussion leaves no possibility for rational discourse. You've essentially said that it's hopeless, and that the other side is either corrupt or irrational, so we may as well dispense with treating them respectfully. I completely disagree. It is almost always the case that if you want people to listen and digest what you're explaining to them, you cannot do so while simultaneously insulting them. And I don't think most of these people, Kuchera included, are irrational or corrupt. They just happen to be wrong. thumb fucked around with this message at Mar 24, 2012 around 22:03 |
| # ? Mar 24, 2012 21:59 |
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IShallRiseAgain posted:I usually don't play as a renegade, but it has its moments God, ME2's action movie interrupts were so loving great.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:00 |
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Smart Car posted:It's pretty inconsistent anyway. Trying to stop Mordin from curing the Genophage might be the bottom right option, but it's not really a Renegade option as per the previous games. Renegade Shepard stops whatever is threatening the galaxy in any way possible, and you'd better not get in his way. During Mass Effect 3, any choice that does not lead to the most amount of people helping against the Reapers would be out of character for a Renegade Shepard, since the Reaper invasion is going on that's the biggest threat there is. A truly Renegade Shepard would tell the Dalatress to shove her sabotage plan where the sun doesn't shine, and the Krogans are a way better force for this kind of war than the Salarians are anyway.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:01 |
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Oxxidation posted:Taking Morinth actually does have some twisted logic behind it. Samara makes it clear that she'll be out for a Renegade Shepard's blood if they both survive the suicide mission, so offing her and replacing her with her daughter is a nice, consequence-free way of avoiding that predicament. So long as you don't try to embrace eternity with her. Does Samara actually consider you an enemy in ME3 if you're heavily Renegade and she survived? Because it would be pretty lame if she didn't, but I suspect it's not the case. Also yeah, you can rationalise taking Morinth as "Samara is credibly dangerous and wants to hunt me down, Morinth is just a sociopathic teenager with a box of matches and I can kill her much more easily if I need to". It's still pretty fuckin' cold though.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:01 |
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Renegade Shepard is inconsistent between the "I don't do it by the book  " moments like throwing that guy out of the tower in the Dantius Towers, or shooting Udina. But then sometimes it becomes ridiculously evil and cold-hearted to the point where it doesn't make sense. Like when you let those people in the refinery burn to death (because of something your own team did) so that you can help Zaeed get revenge. Or killing Samara's daughter or Shiala. The Space Beacon of Tolerance/Space Jerk Vigilante is a decent dichotomy but then it reverts to the Light/Dark system where the Dark side option is "yes and now i will KILL YOU AS WELL HAHA". The real solution is to edit your save games after the first mission to have max P/R points and then do whatever the hell you want.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:02 |
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BioWare confusing 'Renegade' with 'Cruel and Evil Sociopath' has been a complaint since ME2
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:05 |
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Gotta get this out of the way: I always thought the Reapers had an enemy on par with them, beings comprised entirely of "dark energy", who created the original Mass Relay (the Alpha Relay, which is said to tap into dark energy). When organic species reach a necessary level of biotic ability, the creatures can hijack their bodies. This is their goal. Millions of years ago, their species diverged into two distinct segments. One sought immortality by achieving man-machine synthesis, the ultimate realization of organic life. This faction liquidated their mortal bodies in order to achieve a race-wide sentience, and became the first Reaper--Harbinger. The other faction scoffed at this, saying that organic forms should be left behind entirely. They sought to achieve individual transcendence by becoming pure-energy life forms, unchained by mortal logic and with near-limitless power. Although they succeeded, they quickly found that their inability to manipulate the outside world on the micro level to be maddening. Despite being capable of destroying stars and ending galaxies, they lacked the elements which made life worth living. Unable to go back, they slowly twisted and went insane--unable to die, imprisoned in an existence of their own creation. After thousands of years, they discovered that their peculiar mental relays allowed them to ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL over biotics. A massive war ensued between the Reapers, who valued and shepherded organic life, and the Others who sought to control it. Eventually this resulted in complete extermination of all other sentient life in the galaxy. Harbinger despaired, knowing that eventually races would evolve with biotic abilities once more. The cycle would repeat itself endlessly...unless the Reapers struck first. By "harvesting" organic life prior to the point where they would fall under the Others control, these unique forms of sentient life could be preserved. In Reaper form, they would reach the pinnacle of their evolution. The final talk with Harbinger would be more like "Hah! You thought you actually came back to life two years ago? We're only interested in you because we're pretty sure you're one of them!" Then you have to decide whether to negotiate an alliance with the Reapers, destroy them and risk the consequences, or try and control the "Others". And whatever you decide gets imported into Mass Effect 4.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:06 |
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Chief Savage Man posted:Renegade Shepard is inconsistent between the "I don't do it by the book Well, killing Samara's daughter is sorta-reasonable. Samara was there to kill her herself, after all. The Asari commandos who preceded you were there to kill all the Ardat-Yakshi. It's a choice between "your genetics don't define you, I believe you can live peacefully" and "sorry, you're too dangerous to live". Kinda like the Rachni queen or even the genophage decision. Killing Shiala is similar. She even says in ME3 that she knows she's still indoctrinated but is managing to fight it. That's amazing and unprecedented and a pragmatic Shepard would just execute someone who was possibly indoctrinated and infected with the remnants of the Thorian out of hand.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:06 |
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Android Blues posted:Does Samara actually consider you an enemy in ME3 if you're heavily Renegade and she survived? Because it would be pretty lame if she didn't, but I suspect it's not the case. No, and good thing to becuase that never made any sense. My renegade Shepard never does anything that is actually evil. I just build renegade points by an insufferable prick to anyone that isn't part of my crew. So Samara doesn't really have a reason to kill me becuase I never violated her code. However, that line is based solely on your renegade score so it doesn't matter. It's pretty dumb.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:10 |
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Android Blues posted:It's a choice between "your genetics don't define you, I believe you can live peacefully" and "sorry, you're too dangerous to live". The silly thing is, if you read the codex entry on either ardat-yakshi or the monastery planet (or... one related to that, can't remember which) it talks about how some of the AY get to go on supervised visits outside the monastery, how some are just latent AY and not fully realized ones, that eventually some of them prove that they can control their powers and are trustworthy, and that those ones are allowed back in society. Presumably one of these is the AY in the hospital asari's story. It also contradicts Samara's code which says NO AY can live outside the monastery. Surely her daughter had proven herself trustworthy enough to her- unless the danger was that she'd get reaperized, not that she'd go on a killing spree.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:11 |
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Smart Car posted:It's pretty inconsistent anyway. Trying to stop Mordin from curing the Genophage might be the bottom right option, but it's not really a Renegade option as per the previous games. Renegade Shepard stops whatever is threatening the galaxy in any way possible, and you'd better not get in his way. During Mass Effect 3, any choice that does not lead to the most amount of people helping against the Reapers would be out of character for a Renegade Shepard, since the Reaper invasion is going on that's the biggest threat there is. A truly Renegade Shepard would tell the Dalatress to shove her sabotage plan where the sun doesn't shine, and the Krogans are a way better force for this kind of war than the Salarians are anyway. I'm currently replaying ME1 and I can say pretty definitively that from the beginning of the series sometimes bottom-right is just bottom-right. And sometimes it's "hey, of course I'll do something illegal/immoral that's inconsequential to my main goals for some quick credits." Other times it's "Go out and just do something good? Heh, gently caress off." Still others, it's "actively screw an ally to make your job easier." Renegade not really being the "chaotic evil" choice is something Mass Effect always aspired to, but nothing it ever managed perfectly, and ME3 moving more toward focus on overall "Reputation" made it less important for them to do so anyway. As for stopping Mordin from curing the genophage, it's pretty evil. But at the same time your plan with it is to make the krogan think they're cured, get their full support, and get the salarian support too, while not having to worry about a dangerous krogan resurgence in the future. Since the plan is all based around defeating the Reapers with the Crucible in the near future, breeding a massive army of krogan in a few decades isn't really going to do you any good.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:11 |
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IShallRiseAgain posted:I usually don't play as a renegade, but it has its moments Proper Paragon Shep takes any Renegade interrupt involving villains, mercenaries, or assholes anyway.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:12 |
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Chief Savage Man posted:Renegade Shepard is inconsistent between the "I don't do it by the book
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:14 |
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Riso posted:The Witcher 2 Enhanced Edition. I thought they were just adding some more areas and expanding Loc Muinne to give the last act some more meat.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:17 |
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Torsade de Pointes posted:I thought they were just adding some more areas and expanding Loc Muinne to give the last act some more meat. Sounds like they're changing the game to me. Setting a dangerous precedent!!! Nelson Mandingo fucked around with this message at Mar 24, 2012 around 22:21 |
| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:19 |
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skoolmunkee posted:The silly thing is, if you read the codex entry on either ardat-yakshi or the monastery planet (or... one related to that, can't remember which) it talks about how some of the AY get to go on supervised visits outside the monastery, how some are just latent AY and not fully realized ones, that eventually some of them prove that they can control their powers and are trustworthy, and that those ones are allowed back in society. Presumably one of these is the AY in the hospital asari's story. It also contradicts Samara's code which says NO AY can live outside the monastery. Surely her daughter had proven herself trustworthy enough to her- unless the danger was that she'd get reaperized, not that she'd go on a killing spree. Samara seems to have an incredibly hardline view on Ardat-Yakshi. Like, she's basically the asari equivalent of a witch hunter in some ways. I imagine some branches of asari society are more relaxed about people on the Ardat-Yakshi spectrum, and consider it a sort of dirty secret or whatever that you can overlook if it's mild and the person is trustworthy, while Samara is a stone cold traditionalist. She clearly believes that her daughter needs the monastery or she'll be at risk of becoming a dangerous monster. She's really old. I could see social views changing over time while she stays the same, and she's a justicar, so her own moral code is sort of like a warped medieval asari religious law. Not to mention she's obsessed with the guilt and penitence she feels for bearing Ardat-Yakshi children. Samara really shouldn't have the ability to basically declare martial law in asari space, she's obviously kind of a whacko. Android Blues fucked around with this message at Mar 24, 2012 around 22:25 |
| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:23 |
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Nelson Mandingo posted:Sounds like they're changing the game to me. Setting a dangerous precedent!!! Even worse, if you bought the PC version already you get the update for free. That's loving madness nowadays apparently.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:23 |
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Torsade de Pointes posted:I thought they were just adding some more areas and expanding Loc Muinne to give the last act some more meat.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:24 |
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Android Blues posted:Does Samara actually consider you an enemy in ME3 if you're heavily Renegade and she survived? Because it would be pretty lame if she didn't, but I suspect it's not the case. No she says something along the lines of "Toeing the line where her code would require killing Shep, but it was for a good cause so it's probably alright." She also says that if you keep going down that path, bad poo poo may happen
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:26 |
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:How does that go if you don't miss the shot? Garrus: Nobody alive can make this shot! (Shep makes shot) Shep: Nobody alive maybe, but technically I died.  I don't know why anyone would miss that shot. Edit: funny how one word could change the whole message. OatmealRaisin fucked around with this message at Mar 24, 2012 around 22:32 |
| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:28 |
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OatmealRaisin posted:Garrus: Nobody alive can make this shot! Garrus wouldn't want to win because you let him.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:31 |
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OatmealRaisin posted:Garrus: Nobody alive can make this shot! Because some people really are assholes and don't have best friends? I dunno. I didn't hesitate even for a second in making my decision to miss. Edit: Well, looking at the answers above and below, I guess those are valid points.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:32 |
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Bongo Bill posted:Garrus wouldn't want to win because you let him. Yeah, that's why I made the shot. No lies between bros.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:32 |
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Killer robot posted:I'm currently replaying ME1 and I can say pretty definitively that from the beginning of the series sometimes bottom-right is just bottom-right. And sometimes it's "hey, of course I'll do something illegal/immoral that's inconsequential to my main goals for some quick credits." Other times it's "Go out and just do something good? Heh, gently caress off." Still others, it's "actively screw an ally to make your job easier." Renegade not really being the "chaotic evil" choice is something Mass Effect always aspired to, but nothing it ever managed perfectly, and ME3 moving more toward focus on overall "Reputation" made it less important for them to do so anyway. quote:As for stopping Mordin from curing the genophage, it's pretty evil. But at the same time your plan with it is to make the krogan think they're cured, get their full support, and get the salarian support too, while not having to worry about a dangerous krogan resurgence in the future. Since the plan is all based around defeating the Reapers with the Crucible in the near future, breeding a massive army of krogan in a few decades isn't really going to do you any good.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:35 |
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Bongo Bill posted:Garrus wouldn't want to win because you let him. You know, my first thought when that decision came up was that the game should have you actually try to shoot the bottle instead of giving you a conversation wheel that says "yeah, Shepard can totally do this and the question is simply whether she wants to ". Garrus has been established as an amazing shot since ME2, why shouldn't he be better than Shepard?
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:43 |
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Malrauxs Place posted:You know, my first thought when that decision came up was that the game should have you actually try to shoot the bottle instead of giving you a conversation wheel that basically says "yeah, Shepard can totally do this and the question is simply whether she wants to Especially since Shep's talents lend themselves towards biotic charge/ punch. Again and again and again. I'm just upset I never managed to punch a reaper to death 
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:46 |
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| # ? May 22, 2013 04:06 |
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Urdnot Fire posted:Yeah, that's why I made the shot. No lies between bros. I missed the shot because Garrus is totally a better shot than I am. I sure as poo poo couldn't get all 3 incisor shots to hit someone in the head as reliably as he could.
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| # ? Mar 24, 2012 22:46 |
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