Internet Kraken posted:

Internet Kraken posted:

The problem is Bioware didn't mean to write him as an incompetent jester that comically failed to be a threat. He was supposed to be, in their words, a worthy adversary of Shepard. Someone who was equal to Shepard and could match him. Yet he doesn't manage to do this at all and is really the complete opposite of Shepard; an overconfident loner. This could be intentional, but the result is that Kai Leng is dirt that Shepard brushes aside without care.

Lycus posted:

Kai Leng sucks, but the game in general doesn't become bad at his introduction, in my opinion. The next story arc's alright. I'd say that it's not until Thessia that you start to feel the quality really slip.

Android Blues posted:

How on earth do you know?

Android Blues posted:

How on earth do you know? It seems ridiculous honestly to be like "well, Kai Leng performs this role well and the story is consistent with him being this kind of character, but he was meant to be a different sort of character entirely, and he's bad at that!". For one thing you're going outside the text ("Shepard's equal" is not something mentioned in the game, or even suggested), and for the other, why not just accept that he's not that character if what he does do is done well?

A lot of people just seem to be mad at Kai Leng because he "beats" Shepard on Thessia. It feels like Power Trip, Interrupted more than an actual complaint about his characterisation.

CommonSensei posted:

Burning Mustache posted:

I think Patrick Weekes pretty much said (while talking to General Battuta at PAX) that they didn't intend for Kai Leng to be a comically inept bad guy, but rather meant for his character to be "serious", something that arguably failed miserably

Android Blues posted:

I wouldn't call him "comically inept" so much as - he's the bad guy's lieutenant. He's obviously not on Shepard's level, but he's kind of scary. He thinks he's a hot commodity, but of course Shepard kicks his rear end in the end. He's a sub-villain. "Comically inept" is an obvious overstatement unless you're counting all the goofy stuff that happens in Deception.

I mean, as far as "comically inept" goes, Kai Leng is a distantly more successful antagonist than almost anyone else who's lined themselves up against Shepard in the history of ever. He's a dumb jerk, yes, but that's obviously intended because it's pretty clear the game wants you to hate him.

ImpAtom posted:

Because Anderson pretty specifically treats him as a serious threat and warns you about him, treating him as someone we're supposed to find intimidating. Anderson was a potential Spectre himself, and is basically leader of the Earth's rebellion against The Reapers and he's like "woooah, watch out for this guy."

GOTTA STAY FAI posted:

these gifs exist because they're awesome and they will be combined because we demand it

Android Blues posted:

How on earth do you know? It seems ridiculous honestly to be like "well, Kai Leng performs this role well and the story is consistent with him being this kind of character, but he was meant to be a different sort of character entirely, and he's bad at that!". For one thing you're going outside the text ("Shepard's equal" is not something mentioned in the game, or even suggested), and for the other, why not just accept that he's not that character if what he does do is done well?

A lot of people just seem to be mad at Kai Leng because he "beats" Shepard on Thessia. It feels like Power Trip, Interrupted more than an actual complaint about his characterisation.

toliman posted:

Thessia talk

toliman posted:

i'm not sure why thessia is almost towards the end/middle of the game. it still bugs me a little, just to keep kai leng ? sigh.

ashpanash posted:

It's called "proper dramatic structure," and it's important.

That DICK! posted:

So why am I in jail at the beginning of the game?

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Please don't be one of those people who believes every story has to follow the stupid "beginner's screenwriting 3 act guide" or "the hero's journey" or it's a bad story, thanks. Structure is not important - narrative coherence is.

CrushedB posted:

The description for the achievement for beating Kai Leng is "Defeat an old adversary," and he was built up through multiple books as being the ultimate badass, and TIM repeatedly says that he's Shepard's replacement or just like Dark Shepard the Hedgehog, and Anderson is all, "THE REAPERS ARE SCARY BUT KAI LENG IS SOMETHING ELSE."

ashpanash posted:

It's called "proper dramatic structure," and it's important. Thessia was the end of Act Two, the point where the hero reaches his lowest moment. It was predictable for those of us who look for these things, but it was also effective. It added urgency and pushed the story forward for the third act.

Android Blues posted:

Well, if you were relying on the Mass Effect novels for a satisfying story, I'm sorry, because that's a tragedy. "Adversary" does not imply "equal", and neither does "replacement". Anderson thinks Kai Leng is scary because he's a biotic ninja assassin who apparently stabbed some of his friends in a book once. By the standards of anyone who isn't Shepard, Kai Leng is really scary. He's probably about as formidable on a "profile" level as any given squadmate from ME2, say. It's never actually given in the game that he's Shepard's opposite number, just that he is Shepard's enemy. Which he is! And which he's even good at being.

Ambiguatron posted:

Not every story has to follow that pattern, but it requires skill and craft to break it. If you're not up to it, stick with what works.

sassassin posted:

There's nothing special about Thessia that makes it the lowest moment, or adds urgency. If anything it grinds it to something of a halt, as without the catalyst info we no longer know where to go.

You know what added urgency? The invasion of earth. And then they make you waltz around scanning and running errands for hours.

Android Blues posted:

Well, if you were relying on the Mass Effect novels for a satisfying story, I'm sorry, because that's a tragedy. "Adversary" does not imply "equal", and neither does "replacement". Anderson thinks Kai Leng is scary because he's a biotic ninja assassin who apparently stabbed some of his friends in a book once. shived an autistic 15 year old girl with a tootbrush (but she didn't die)

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Please don't be one of those people who believes every story has to follow the stupid "beginner's screenwriting 3 act guide" or "the hero's journey" or it's a bad story, thanks. Structure is not important - narrative coherence is.

CrushedB posted:

Holy strawmen, Kai Leng.

(Also yes, calling someone your replacement and saying they're so much like you except evil really is the equivalent of calling them your equal or evil twin)

Android Blues posted:

That's not really a strawman. I'm just saying if you care about the novels or what is written in them, you're probably not going to get much of a payoff in the games, because the two are really disparate things. If you don't care about the novels and what is written in them, why does Kai Leng's characterisation in them matter?

Android Blues posted:

The loss of the catalyst info is the lowest moment, duh. It means that you have no hope of fighting the Reapers, because you can't complete the Crucible. By losing that data Shepard just screwed the galaxy, it's over. Lowest moment. Then Traynor pulls it out of the fire and you get rising hope, along with rising stakes because now there's really no time left to waste in securing the data.

CrushedB posted:

Because the argument was what BioWare's writers' intentions for the character of Kai Leng were.

ashpanash posted:

If you want to significantly challenge the standard story structure (which can be done, and done successfully), then you better be damned good at telling your story. You know who isn't damned good at telling their story? These guys.

Narrative Coherence? Look at how long this thread is. Seriously.

CrushedB posted:

Because the argument was what BioWare's writers' intentions for the character of Kai Leng were, not whether I personally had expectations for Kai Leng based on the novels.

Android Blues posted:

How on earth do you know? It seems ridiculous honestly to be like "well, Kai Leng performs this role well and the story is consistent with him being this kind of character, but he was meant to be a different sort of character entirely, and he's bad at that!". For one thing you're going outside the text ("Shepard's equal" is not something mentioned in the game, or even suggested), and for the other, why not just accept that he's not that character if what he does do is done well?

A lot of people just seem to be mad at Kai Leng because he "beats" Shepard on Thessia. It feels like Power Trip, Interrupted more than an actual complaint about his characterisation.

CrushedB posted:

I liked the Kai Leng fight on Thessia because it was just me holding him in place with a buffed Widow shot every 10 seconds until he ran away. That's pretty much how the Cerberus base fight went too, with the difference being that once his shields are gone you can one-shot him with the Widow before he's even finished talking.

Cthulu Carl posted:

And the argument was based on A) An in-game achievement and B) Anderson's in-game comments.

So yes, "if you were relying on the Mass Effect novels for a satisfying story" is in fact a strawman BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT WAS ARGUED.

Android Blues posted:

he's an ineptly written goon who eats cereal and pees in a vase.

Android Blues posted:

I wouldn't call him "comically inept" so much as - he's the bad guy's lieutenant. He's obviously not on Shepard's level, but he's kind of scary. He thinks he's a hot commodity, but of course Shepard kicks his rear end in the end. He's a sub-villain. "Comically inept" is an obvious overstatement unless you're counting all the goofy stuff that happens in Deception.

I mean, as far as "comically inept" goes, Kai Leng is a distantly more successful antagonist than almost anyone else who's lined themselves up against Shepard in the history of ever. He's a dumb jerk, yes, but that's obviously intended because it's pretty clear the game wants you to hate him.