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Why is it so bad if you can't "win"? ME seems like a pretty good story to me. Putting in an ending where everything works out just to make you feel good is pretty bullshit. Some things are inevitable, I appreciate when literature acknowledges that.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:03 |
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| # ? May 25, 2013 14:59 |
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unclenutzzy posted:Why is it so bad if you can't "win"?
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:04 |
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unclenutzzy posted:Why is it so bad if you can't "win"? ME seems like a pretty good story to me. Putting in an ending where everything works out just to make you feel good is pretty bullshit. Some things are inevitable, I appreciate when literature acknowledges that. The problem is that you literally get one ending. It's not the content of the ending, but the fact that you only get one. People would be bitching if you only got one happy ending to finish the day too.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:04 |
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unclenutzzy posted:Why is it so bad if you can't "win"? ME seems like a pretty good story to me. Putting in an ending where everything works out just to make you feel good is pretty bullshit. Some things are inevitable, I appreciate when literature acknowledges that. And here we go again. Read the OP and watch the video linked there.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:04 |
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Milky Moor posted:Yeah. I doubt the whole 'you'll hang onto your saves forever!' thing refers to just that rumored Aria DLC or whatever. Because, really, will anyone buy it after this? I really hate to sound entitled but at this point, with such a huge outcry and that charity up to 50k I think that if bioware does release dlc that isn't related to the ending then it proves they are completely 100% out of touch with their playerbase and no one will buy it.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:04 |
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Zedd posted:I still don't think the endings ruin the entire game though, the other 98% of the game is really drat good. I agree. I think part of the reason that the ending is getting so much flak is because of how great the rest of the game was. I really don't think that it deserves the panning it's getting on metacritic user scores, since that is based entirely off the ending, but eh, such is the internet. Dolphin Fetus posted:I really hate to sound entitled but at this point, with such a huge outcry and that charity up to 50k I think that if bioware does release dlc that isn't related to the ending then it proves they are completely 100% out of touch with their playerbase and no one will buy it. I can use that to illustrate my earlier point. What you said does not demonstrate entitlement. If you had said that they need to only release a DLC that is related to the ending because they owe it to everybody, either because of the demands or the charity, that would demonstrate it. The difference is between "they should" and "they must," and "I want" and "I deserve." I was never saying people here are acting entitled, for the most part nobody here is. However, you can see it on other boards. That said, the IGN guy that said everything and all of the rage was due to entitlement issues was an idiot. Mr.Unique-Name fucked around with this message at Mar 16, 2012 around 07:11 |
| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:05 |
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unclenutzzy posted:Why is it so bad if you can't "win"? ME seems like a pretty good story to me. Putting in an ending where everything works out just to make you feel good is pretty bullshit. Some things are inevitable, I appreciate when literature acknowledges that. That is nowhere near the problem with the ending. Nothing about this ending was inevitable, outside of the Authorgod saying in the last few minutes, "this is what's going to happen!" It's not a part of the story at all and doesn't ever engage with any of the themes or tones of the entirety of the previous saga.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:05 |
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unclenutzzy posted:Why is it so bad if you can't "win"? ME seems like a pretty good story to me. Putting in an ending where everything works out just to make you feel good is pretty bullshit. Some things are inevitable, I appreciate when literature acknowledges that. Because Mass Effect isn't that kind of story. Same reason that when Luke Skywalker blows up the Death Star and the last scene of Star Wars is not him apologizing to all the widows of all the stormtroopers who were on board.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:06 |
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Jarmel posted:And here we go again. Read the OP and watch the video linked there. I did, and I feel exactly the same way.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:06 |
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unclenutzzy posted:Why is it so bad if you can't "win"? ME seems like a pretty good story to me. Putting in an ending where everything works out just to make you feel good is pretty bullshit. Some things are inevitable, I appreciate when literature acknowledges that. Its this thread. This thread is the cycle. We must merge with the thread to end the cycle. All this has been posted before and it will all be posted aga- gently caress, wrong series.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:06 |
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Dolphin Fetus posted:In fact Mac and Hudson seem very content with the ending, which is very troubling. At this point I don't see how they could be content. On practically every game-related forum the only speculation going on is "how could they have hosed the ending up so bad?" or "how are they going to fix this?" LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE? Mission successful I guess.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:06 |
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unclenutzzy posted:I did, and I feel exactly the same way. I'm curious, I want you to name me what actual works of literature (well-received literature) are mirrored in the ending of ME3, especially considering the disagreement between the ending themes and the main story themes, as well as the tone of the buildup. You said you like it when literature acknowledges this kind of thing, what literature has acknowledged this sort of ending? I'm drawing a blank, honestly.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:07 |
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unclenutzzy posted:I did, and I feel exactly the same way. Then you should know that the ending is full of tropes and plotholes that invalidate ME1 and ME2 while still managing the amazing task of not wrapping ME3 up that well.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:08 |
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Dolphin Fetus posted:I really hate to sound entitled but at this point, with such a huge outcry and that charity up to 50k I think that if bioware does release dlc that isn't related to the ending then it proves they are completely 100% out of touch with their playerbase and no one will buy it.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:08 |
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Batham posted:Not only that, if people gather 50k to wish for certain DLC, a marketing team would be retarded not to go for it. The past 10 years, marketing is the deciding factor of product design in almost all sectors. Seriously. I might be off here, but I don't honestly think companies should have pride when it comes to this. When people are willing to pile on 50,000 dollars in three days for the wish of an alternate ending DLC, EA and Bioware honchos should probably be going, "gently caress off, I don't care if you think you'll look like idiots, do it."
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:09 |
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kater posted:The Normandy crash landing on some paradise planet kinda does feel like the ending to the Matrix 1. That sense of redefined parameters, of ambiguous possibility. According to a BioWare community manager on twitter the Normandy retreated after being ordered to by Admiral Hackett. It did not have time to reach Sol's mass relay near pluto and was not in a relay jump when they popped. She went on to SPECULATE that the Normandy had thereofore crashed on Earth until somebody pointed out that Earth doesn't have 2 moons as per the stargazer photo. Further speculation suggested the Normandy had crashed on one of Mars's two moons. I kind of felt sorry for her trying to communicate politely with fans but just falling down plot holes everywhere she turned.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:10 |
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Player 2 posted:According to a BioWare community manager on twitter the Normandy retreated after being ordered to by Admiral Hackett. It did not have time to reach Sol's mass relay near pluto and was not in a relay jump when they popped. The moons of Mars have jungles..?
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:11 |
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Dolphin Fetus posted:I really hate to sound entitled but at this point, with such a huge outcry and that charity up to 50k I think that if bioware does release dlc that isn't related to the ending then it proves they are completely 100% out of touch with their playerbase and no one will buy it. I'm fairly confident Bioware's DLC plans were cemented long ago. Maybe, *maybe* they can respond to this outrage with something released a year from now. But both ME2 and DA2 had DLC planned since at least launch that didn't get released for at least half a year. Batham posted:Yeah, despite that the ending is one of the worst in video gaming history, what comes before that is sublime. It's one of the few games that pulls off a fun, epic and emotional war story. Until the end. That's not fair at all. The ending has been so overwhelmingly focused on that the rest of the game seems perfect in comparison. I don't think Bioware should be let go on the stupid rear end EDI sexbot or Legion being... overwritten.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:11 |
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unclenutzzy posted:Why is it so bad if you can't "win"? ME seems like a pretty good story to me. Putting in an ending where everything works out just to make you feel good is pretty bullshit. Some things are inevitable, I appreciate when literature acknowledges that. "Can't win" is an oversimplification and not at all what a lot of people are surprised/angry/disappointed with. While you may appreciate the concept in literature unfortunately this is not a book. It's the third game of a series in which precedent for actions, themes and motivations have already been displayed. Which the ending completely invalidates in an almost nonsensical manner.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:12 |
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Player 2 posted:According to a BioWare community manager on twitter the Normandy retreated after being ordered to by Admiral Hackett. It did not have time to reach Sol's mass relay near pluto and was not in a relay jump when they popped. Holy poo poo I just sprayed my monitor with spit laughing. When the gently caress does Mars's moons have full vegetation? What the gently caress. Oh man. Not to mention if the Normandy isn't in a relay jump then the rest of Sword is wiped out by the space magic. Well there the gently caress goes the Quarians, Geth, and the rest of the fleets. My god. Jarmel fucked around with this message at Mar 16, 2012 around 07:14 |
| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:12 |
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Axialbloom posted:"Can't win" is an oversimplification and not at all what a lot of people are surprised/angry/disappointed with. While you may appreciate the concept in literature unfortunately this is not a book. It's the third game of a series in which precedent for actions, themes and motivations have already been displayed. Which the ending completely invalidates in an almost nonsensical manner. Even if ME is not a book, no decent work of literature I can think of has dealt with the ending in a similar way as ME3 has. Just from a general storytelling perspective, whether in film or written literature, I honestly can't think of a well-received example. It's so out of line with how stories should be structured, the uniformity of themes and tone, on and on.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:13 |
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Nombres posted:Seriously. I might be off here, but I don't honestly think companies should have pride when it comes to this. When people are willing to pile on 50,000 dollars in three days for the wish of an alternate ending DLC, EA and Bioware honchos should probably be going, "gently caress off, I don't care if you think you'll look like idiots, do it." I really want to know who the guy that donated $10k the other day was.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:13 |
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:I really want to know who the guy that donated $10k the other day was. I realize he probably doesn't have this kind of money, but I kind of hope it was Drew Karpayshan.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:15 |
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Jarmel posted:Holy poo poo I just sprayed my monitor with spit laughing. Yeah, wasn't the ending cinematic pretty explicit that the Normandy was in a relay jump?
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:15 |
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:I really want to know who the guy that donated $10k the other day was. I think it was a guy on GAF. He's filthy rich and he mentioned it was him.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:15 |
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unclenutzzy posted:Why is it so bad if you can't "win"? ME seems like a pretty good story to me. Putting in an ending where everything works out just to make you feel good is pretty bullshit. Some things are inevitable, I appreciate when literature acknowledges that. Except that 'some things are inevitable' kind of runs against Mass Effect's themes as series. Whenever someone tells Shepard that something is impossible, Shepard basically flips them the bird and tells them to deal with it. When someone says 'A or B, Shepard', Shepard thinks of a better 'C' option. Of course, then the Reapers anticipated that. They provided Shepard with A, B and C. Poor Shepard couldn't handle a fourth way.  But seriously, a big problem of the ending is that Shepard accepts what they tell him, declares that a former antagonist was correct (minutes after proving that he wasn't) and basically surrenders. A clear case of it being inevitable because the writer declared it to be inevitable and not any sort of actual logic or plot evolution.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:16 |
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Exactly. If your customers are so ready to give away money that they start giving to charity because you're not yet ready to take their money, you tell your creative types to shut their holes and get to work making whatever it is these loose-moneyed people want.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:16 |
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Nombres posted:Yeah, wasn't the ending cinematic pretty explicit that the Normandy was in a relay jump? The Normandy can't be in a relay jump as relay jumps are instantaneous so I figured that the Normandy had to be traveling at FTL. The problem with that though was it implied an Arrival style explosion that would have destroyed Earth. Now it seems it just only wiped out Sword, as we really never see what happens to Sword, even though that really doesn't make sense either. This ending was truly a holocaust. Jarmel fucked around with this message at Mar 16, 2012 around 07:19 |
| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:17 |
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The rest of ME3 was a fantastic, sci-fi thrillride. But I don't know, the ending really did ruin the game for me. I can't bring myself to play it again for my typical second-run. The taste left in my mouth is so bitter--it's like a fine meal being ruined after being fed rotten dessert.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:17 |
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Once Bioware writers start putting poo poo out on the level of Pynchon or Joyce, sure, I'll accept the "YOU CAN'T CHANGE ART," bit. Until then, I'm hoping (and I'd never think I'd hope this) that some EA executive will come in as the cavalry and go, "What the gently caress are you guys up to? Get to work, all of you!"Jarmel posted:The Normandy can't be in a relay jump as relay jumps are instantaneous so I figured that the Normandy had to be traveling at FTL. The problem with that though was it implied an Arrival style explosion that would have destroyed Earth. Now it seems it just only wiped out Sword even though that really doesn't make sense either. Are they instantaneous? As far as I remember, it shows the mass relay going critical, then shooting off the red beam. Next shot, Normandy is running from the red beam. Additionally, in some loading screens after you take relay jumps, doesn't it show the Normandy traveling in normal space? I think relay jumps are very fast, but not instantaneous. If they are, though, that lady just opened a ton of new plotholes, Jesus Christ. Nombres fucked around with this message at Mar 16, 2012 around 07:20 |
| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:18 |
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Goddammit, the NeoGAF thread took the "LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE" subtitle. I'm thinking "Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread: ENDINGS - how do they feel?" might be a decent substitute.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:18 |
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ASK ME ABOUT GETTING REAL MAD IN A SECRET SANTA FOR RECEIVING THE EXACT GAG PRESENT I ASKED FOR AND THEN DOING A COMPLETE U-TURN WHEN I REALISED IT WASN'T EVEN THE ENTIRE PRESENT
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Nombres posted:Yeah, wasn't the ending cinematic pretty explicit that the Normandy was in a relay jump? Yes. FTL, at the very least. Everyone walking away from such a crash landing is so absurd there are no words, let alone that they hit upon some paradise, and the crew from Earth are randomly aboard. There are very good reasons why people are wanting it all to be bullshit indoctrination craziness.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:19 |
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kater posted:That's not fair at all. The ending has been so overwhelmingly focused on that the rest of the game seems perfect in comparison. I don't think Bioware should be let go on the stupid rear end EDI sexbot or Legion being... overwritten. Yeah there are a lot of different bits and pieces that are getting lost in the SPECULATION over the ending. But it's like eating a delicious 7 course meal, finding one bit a little too salty, another part a touch too rich, but over all one of the best meals you've ever had. Then being told it was made from soylent green. EDIT: Thoren and I are on a similar wavelength it seems.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:19 |
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Jesus, I play some rounds of multiplayer and like 20 pages pop up. So I'm gonna be commenting on stuff from somewhat far back in the thread.unclenutzzy posted:Why is it so bad if you can't "win"? ME seems like a pretty good story to me. Putting in an ending where everything works out just to make you feel good is pretty bullshit. Some things are inevitable, I appreciate when literature acknowledges that. Because ME isn't that kind of game or story. We've been over this, but a tragic "it's impossible to win that's life" kind of ending is just out of place in ME. It has its' place, but it isn't ME. Would you tell me Star Wars would be better if Luke and co. lost and died because poo poo what they were trying to do was just impossible and downer endings rock and that's life? The White Dragon posted:I know I said I'd probably be as bad as Dissertation Boy if I storyboarded an alternate ending sequence if the Reapers didn't just outright destroy you but, well, it happened anyway. This alternate ending was honestly great. I could've only wished for something like that, and I like you get a variety of endings and things that can happen based on how you play. You even provide last minute renegade/paragon interrupts, and those two sections...the one where Anderson can either sacrifice himself/Shepard can save him, and the one with Liara, all the way at the end, looking up at a working Mass Relay with an aged Grunt and EDI? That's really magnificent and poignant I think. Again, the ending isn't perfect, but if something like your ending was done? There'd be very few complaints, just nitpicks and such. ME3 would've finished as strong as it was throughout. Haledjian posted:I don't know, I'm kind of sick of "the fate of the galaxy is at stake" science fiction games. I would have zero problem playing for the fate of, I don't know, Omega, or my cousin's space taxi company if they made a good game out of it. Exactly. Before they threw the ME universe in the dumpster I was really hoping for smaller scale games in the same universe, to flesh out the rest of the galaxy and races more. Shepard had the galaxy wide threat, other games could've been smaller in scale and not trying to be as epic as that. Nombres posted:I don't know, they could handle it in a different way than the 40K dark age. See, this...this gets to something that really bugs me. And is a reason the endings to ME3 are so bad to me, even personally. The galactic community is destroyed and you admit that and start talking about a dark age and how games could still take place in the same universe but... It wouldn't be the ME I loved. I'm not nor have I ever been a Warhammer 40k fan. I would not be a fan of grimdark space-darkage Mass Effect. That would remove everything about ME that ever really made me interested in it, the only resemblance it would really have is that the races are the same - but even their cultures and attitudes and tones would shift from what made me interested in them in the first place. Let me try to explain this - ME interested me for a similar reason I've always liked Star Trek:TNG. It's a utopian society. I liked seeing functioning futuristic civilization that isn't crumbling, and more than that, I was drawn by one where the alien races are reasonable and taken seriously, rather than being one note characters or comedic relief while the humans do all the important stuff. That's even a flaw with Star Trek:TNG - humans run everything, even if aliens are taken more seriously than say, Star Wars. And ME went even farther than that. So humans are introduced into this huge, sprawling, and incredibly long standing galactic society that they did not start, and do not run. And it works. It has a functioning government and more than that, all of the alien races you meet have their own particular culture and general ways of acting, it's just well thought out. I mean, ME showed me a universe I could honestly have been interested in just exploring, even if there was no major conflict with the Reapers or something. That's how much it made me interested in its' world and races and characters. I just wanted to learn more about that, the conflict with the Reapers has never been why I've played ME. It bugs me, for example, that the only view we ever got of Thessia was when it was being ravaged by Reapers. I would've loved if the main planets were hubs, just to get a chance to explore that city in the horizon, for example. So what's the problem with continuing a game in the ruined universe? It has none of this. Galactic society doesn't exist. The culture of the various alien races will be destroyed as they simply struggle to not go extinct, and everything is too cut off to have proper communication anyway - so a game would probably take place in the sol system because that's the last real place a variety of races - including humans - are gathered in large numbers. But this is just human focused again, and the aliens have nothing of their own really here, and it's all just going to be a battle for survival. Basically, it's said that the arts flourish in times of prosperity. That's where a lot of culture comes from, and that's one thing ME has for its races that helps differentiate them from various aliens in Star Wars. That goes out the window if you're talking about that grimdark Warhammer 40k style universe.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:20 |
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Why are two party members dead on the ground before entering the blue beam in London and alive and well later on some dumb planet? What is going on? 
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:20 |
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Anal Tributary posted:Goddammit, the NeoGAF thread took the "LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE" subtitle. I'm thinking "Mass Effect 3 Spoiler Thread: ENDINGS - how do they feel?" might be a decent substitute. The First Matrix and Brave New World.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:20 |
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Well I guess the closure is that everybody is dead then. Well played Bioware.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:21 |
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Nombres posted:Even if ME is not a book, no decent work of literature I can think of has dealt with the ending in a similar way as ME3 has. Just from a general storytelling perspective, whether in film or written literature, I honestly can't think of a well-received example. It's so out of line with how stories should be structured, the uniformity of themes and tone, on and on. Eh, it almost pains me to say this, but I could see a "For Whom the Bell Tolls" vibe in the ending if you REEEEEEALY wanted to stretch it. Hemingway has the narrator basically get his rear end toasted by advancing Nationalist forces at the end of it, and more or less everything he worked up to up until that point - all the hopes, dreams, love, lust, etc - gets boiled down to a single sacrifice that, in the long run, the audience knows is worthless because Republican Spain loses the war (the book was published in 1940). The problem here is that For WHom the Bell Tolls was written by ERNEST loving HEMINGWAY and the whole thing is a mopy dwelling on themes of death, suicide, and the meaning of self-sacrifice. We see a young man's life reduced to a gesture that we know is meaningless in the grand sweep of events. Everything builds towards that moment. It's no mistake that it was published in the first years of WW2, when everyone was a bit preoccupied with death and the meaning of sacrifice for rather obvious reasons. That said, since Hemingway isn't a hack he actually explored those issues in the previous chunk of the book as well and didn't just tack on some mopy dark brooding ending onto the end of Captain America or something.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:21 |
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kater posted:Yes. FTL, at the very least. Everyone walking away from such a crash landing is so absurd there are no words, let alone that they hit upon some paradise, and the crew from Earth are randomly aboard. And why was Joker looking over his shoulder? Was the Normandy's rear view mirror broken?
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:22 |
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| # ? May 25, 2013 14:59 |
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Calantus posted:Exactly. If your customers are so ready to give away money that they start giving to charity because you're not yet ready to take their money, you tell your creative types to shut their holes and get to work making whatever it is these loose-moneyed people want. Or you prove that their customers are so hooked on the franchise that you guarantee they will make good money for DLC that corrects the issue, thereby correcting a major problem in monetization of Bioware IP that's been annoying EA for a while now.
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| # ? Mar 16, 2012 07:22 |
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