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Well I've been sitting on this for 48 hours. Here's my thought: Around the time of the first single-player DLC release we'll find out if we're just a bunch of spazzes or if the endings truly sucked the life out of the franchise. I'm not willing to discount that we're an echo chamber, and that the average person just said "meh" and went about their day. But I'm not sure. The first DLC will tell the tale. If the attachment rate is low - if the people who jump on DLC just don't Give A poo poo About Mass Effect anymore due to this ending - then the suits are going to take notice. Other indicators will be examined. If people aren't replaying the game (and they do track these things) they will notice. If the multiplayer packs stop selling, they will notice. Mass Effect made EA a lot of money. They've worked very hard on it. They are not going to let it die. They are not going to "pull a Matrix", where after the release of Revolutions nobody wanted to touch the property because of the toxic, pointless way it was resolved. However, if the DLC sells and the multiplayer stays strong, well, then who the gently caress cares? We're talking about the game, keeping it on our collective consciousness, buying the poo poo they sell. There's no reason to listen to any of us. We'll see.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 15:16 |
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| # ¿ May 21, 2013 04:01 |
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Strange Matter posted:The Crucible VI lays out the decision for you and what the consequences are, and then you have to make that decision, just like you had to make all the decisions that lead up to it. The Mass Relays have to be destroyed because they are part of the Reaper's cycle and the consequence of ending the cycle is removing those components from it. No, I'm sorry, you're wrong. Utterly wrong and wrong-headed, about the cycles, about what the ending should deliver. One of the reasons that the ending is so bad is that most of us fell in love with the Universe of Mass Effect. The mysterious mass relays, the krogan, the turians, the galactic government, all that good stuff. When you blow up the relays and kill everyone on the Citadel and move it to Earth and explode it, the results are not a COST OF THE STORY or a CONSEQUENCE. You have essentially hit the reset button on all of the stuff that the players cared about. You have said, "The universe you were fighting for? It's loving gone, man." Most people, whether they want to admit it or not, are fighting for a hopeful future that includes the compelling STATUS QUO that they love about the Mass Effect universe. Paragon Shepard tries to improve it. Renegade Shepard makes sacrifices to preserve it. Either way, when you obliterate that status quo and render all the choices and sacrifices moot, you obliterate people's interest in the franchise. On top of that, Shepard rolls over and gives up after 3 minutes with a stupid AI. It's not true to the character. It's not true to the themes of the series. Mass Effect is not a crapsack world or a post-apocalyptic nightmare. It's a hopeful future. Galactic government has problems, but they're trying. Paragon Shep sees the value in that and wants to improve. Renegade Shep is a soldier who will do anything to destroy those who threaten it. Guess what? No matter what, Shep does more damage to the people he's been fighting for than the Reapers ever could. He blows apart their economy, strands them in a warzone, and sends the galaxy into a Dark Age. I was ready for Shepard to die. When it came down to it, I would have been fine with a dead Shepard and a big state funeral with a eulogy by Garrus. That would have given catharsis. That would have given closure. Instead I got 5 minutes of gobbleteygook and a bad cutscene that, no joke, pretty much killed Mass Effect for me. Edit: On the theme, if you think the theme is about sacrifice that's certainly a valid interpretation based on what can happen in the game. You see, it's a story video game and because of that, people's playthroughs can have major differences. For some people, the theme can be sacrifice. For others, it can be beating the odds. For yet others, it can be triumph through unity - through working together for the common good. The thing is, a good ending would provide something for all those players. It would take their stories into account and be adaptive. That's not what happened, though. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at Mar 13, 2012 around 16:10 |
| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 16:08 |
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kuddles posted:To be fair to some of the journalism stories being posted, almost all the negativity on the official BioWare forums, including the official "poll" they did, is all pretty much around the fact that they wanted the ending of the game to be "..and Shepard saved everyone and not a single person died. THE END." A lot of people say that, but I don't believe them. They don't have the critical thinking abilities to actually deduce what parts of the ending they didn't like, they just know it felt bad and wrong and they didn't like it. So the knee-jerk reaction is to go the exact opposite direction and ask for flowers and sunshine and rainbows and everything spelled out explicitly. Another thing I don't get: if this is a series that was always going to end badly and futilely for the main character, why give them the possibility of unequivocal awesome victories in the first 2 games? I mean, you could have made Shepard sacrifice 3 squad mates in the Suicide Mission, killed more people on Virmire, whatever. People who are spouting off the theme of "sacrifice": how do you account for the fact that it's always been very possible to almost totally ignore that theme? Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at Mar 13, 2012 around 16:42 |
| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 16:38 |
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Personally, I think the game should only have a "Shepard lives" ending if you play through it on Insanity on New Game+. Let the player feel like the earned a happy ending for old Commander Shepard after they experienced a real, and proper, sacrificial death.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 16:49 |
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Anal Tributary posted:Except when they are going to cancel shows everybody loves, you loving pathetic idiot.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 17:11 |
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Mackers posted:The ending was fantastic. They spent the whole series talking about how you would make difficult decisions, yet it was almost always very obvious what was right and wrong (with stuff like what happens to the Batarians one of few exceptions). Then they actually hit you with "Decide the fate of the galaxy. Right now. And people are going to die." Notice how the first part of your post isn't addressed in the second part? This phrase: "Decide the fate of the galaxy. Right now. And people are going to die." You know what actually isn't in there at all? "And your choices matter." And that - at it's core - is why the ending is not 'fantastic'.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 18:02 |
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Actually it occurs to me that the best thing to do from a business perspective would be to port Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2 into the new engine with the new gameplay enhancements, revise the Mass Effect 3 ending, and release the whole thing as Mass Effect Trilogy Gold. I dunno, just a thought. Maybe a dumb one.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 18:14 |
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Mister Bates posted:Seriously, the guy who did the soundtrack for loving Moon worked on the music for this game, He did 2 tracks. The hero of the game's soundtrack is Sam Hulick, who has been around since Mass Effect 1 and wrote some of the game's most memorable themes.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 18:17 |
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I can't speak for others, but I didn't like Dragon Age 2 and didn't make it to the end. That game had deep, systemic flaws in just about every area - story, dialogue, combat, and content. Mass Effect 3 was succeeding as a game and as a story. I think that's part of people's strong negative reaction: it's so bad and it happens SO QUICKLY. Within 10 minutes the whole thing goes to absolute poo poo. One thing I think is pretty amusing: all of the people petitioning for a change of the ending are being belittled and ignored, but they are not stopping. But the story they just played was about a person doing what they thought was right even though everyone belittled and ignored them for it, and winning. At least they took the lessons of the game to heart!
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 18:25 |
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The ending of Mass Effect 3 doesn't have to be some saccarine crap ending. That's a strawman. Nobody complained at the end of Shadow of the Colossus. Nobody complained at the end of Red Dead Redemption. Nobody complained about the end of Max Payne 2. Nobody complained about the end of Planescape: Torment. All of these endings were downers in some way, but were thematically appropriate. If Mass Effect was really supposed to be a theme of horrendous losses and sacrifices then they shouldn't have made Shepard able to stop Sovereign by blowing up his henchman's skeleton in the first game. Or complete a Suicide Mission with no losses, that ends with Shepard looking defiantly up at the oncoming Reaper horde as he prepares to kick their asses. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at Mar 12, 2013 around 19:32 |
| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 20:38 |
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thetrin posted:In fact, the end of RDR is a PERFECT example of how to get a sad ending down perfect. God drat the end of that game (and the subsequent final final story mission) were loving powerful. Yes, and extremely appropriate for the themes that the game was dealing with.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 20:41 |
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Ok Harry Potter, to destroy Voldemort you've got 3 choices: 1) Destroy Voldemort, but will also kill Hermoine and blow up Hogwart's. 2) Control Voldemort, you die and also you blow up Hogwart's. 3) Turn everyone into wizards, also you die and we blow up Hogwart's. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at Mar 13, 2012 around 20:49 |
| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 20:47 |
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Nelson Mandingo posted:This is half true, but remember that the Reapers have apparently won every battle before this cycle by activating the citadel. This is the first time they had to actually make a direct assault rather than a crippling sneak attack. And it's the first time that the enemy force has had 3 years of weaponizing their own tech to fire back at them. Remember the Collector ship? It clearly wasn't designed to take that punch. poo poo, you throw a couple of tough guy lines for Shep into the ending, "You've never had to face your own weapons before and it scares you," and it's almost believable that the Alliance could potentially beat the Reapers by shooting their own retrofitted weapons back at them.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 22:02 |
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As a sort of reversal to ProfessorCirno's "holy poo poo what the hell could Harbringer have wanted?" idea, an ending where you find out that the Reapers are not that inscrutable at all, but instead are just a bunch of blowhards talk a big line about how great they are while they follow their stupid dead programming from their stupid creator race. And once you've got them on the ropes, out comes the pleading and "we're superior, our way is right" speeches. Which you should promptly ignore. Find out that the genocidal space bullies are just dumb blustering assholes that deserve to be blown the gently caress up kind of works for me, too. Either they should REALLY be unknowable and mysterious, like ProfessorCirno says, or they should REALLY have been full of poo poo the whole time. Making their motive understandeable and kind of silly was not a good idea.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 22:12 |
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Never credit a conspiracy with something that can be explained by incompetence. They ran out of time, rushed the end, and it turned out really bad.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 22:26 |
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Jefferoo posted:I'm so loving pumped RedLetterMedia is taking this on. I mean, it puts Bioware on pretty much the same level as Lucas as far as colossal gently caress-ups go. Will it really vindicate you that much if Plinkett takes a poo poo on it? The opinions of everyone I respect think that the ending is garbage and I, personally, think the ending was garbage. That's enough for me. No offense to RedLetterMedia, and I enjoy the hell out of the reviews because they are informative and thought-provoking, but they change nothing. Lucas's stuff is still bad regardless.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 23:28 |
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Kai Leng could have worked if they had done unique animations for each class of Shepard. Like you try to Biotic Charge him, countered, Nova he jumps over, dodges Incinerates, Biotic explodes your SIngularity, etc. Sometimes the disconnect between the cutscenes and the gameplay got a little extreme.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2012 23:41 |
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Preechr posted:Heh, that's cute. I bet you thought having Anderson appointed to the council was a choice that mattered, too. You know, I give Bioware a lot of poo poo for hand-waving a lot of stuff, but Anderson quitting the council was one of the legitimate hand-waves that they got right. He's a career military man, he's miserable as a Councillor, he complains about it all through Mass Effect 2, you can see that he's constantly fighting with Udina, and he can't get the Council to help Shepard when the chips are down. It totally fits the character for him to quit and go back to the military, it's one of the few hand-waves the game got right.
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| # ¿ Mar 14, 2012 21:09 |
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What's pretty funny to me is that one of his central points, people wouldn't want Romeo and Juliet to die, is technically correct but wrong at a fundamental level. It might surprise Richard Cobbett to know that most people don't WANT Romeo and Juliet to die, but ACCEPT IT because Shakespeare is a cracker-jack storyteller with a mastery of themes and who successfully foreshadows that these two kids are Doomed As gently caress and that you should just wait for the other shoe to drop on the whole business. Unlike whoever wrote the Mass Effect 3 ending, who didn't have enough time or enough sense to actually give the series a fitting send-off. Funny thing about making people care about your games: they actually do care and will get angry with you, for reals, if you botch it. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at Mar 14, 2012 around 21:53 |
| # ¿ Mar 14, 2012 21:46 |
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Dominic White posted:Just because you can't think up a solution in a setting filled with scientific supergeniuses doesn't mean they all die by default. We see the Ewoks celebrating during the night that the Death Star blow up. There's no evidence in Return of the Jedi that the debris harms anyone. ME3's ending is like if you find out Luke was a pedophile, and then the Death Star blows up, and then the movie ends. It taints everything, and is such an awful tonal shift that someone could conceivable say, "Didn't the Ewoks all die from the explosion?" And hey, maybe they did...all the audience knows is that the universe has been blown to poo poo and Luke kissed his own sister and is attracted to toddlers! Nothing is off the table!
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| # ¿ Mar 14, 2012 21:57 |
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Chris L'Etoile wrote Legion and EDI in Mass Effect 2? GodDAMN. That dude can write robots really well. I knew there was something off about the new EDI and Legion (not counting robot cameltoe here, obviously).
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| # ¿ Mar 14, 2012 22:02 |
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Pretty pleased with myself, just converted a real-life friend who thought the end of the game was "ok, nothing special" into a huge hateful nerd who cancelled his planned second playthrough. edit: Don't be fooled, I guarantee you that EA is watching the number of people who watch the ending and start playing the game again within a few days very closely. Former corporate report writer here.
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| # ¿ Mar 14, 2012 23:10 |
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Duder X posted:I made a post about the series ending. http://acagamia.tumblr.com/ I'd post it all in full here, but it's too long. Feel free to respond either through tumblr or in this thread. I'll check both. Here's a response: this was a really stupid essay that missed the entire point of the game and written by a person who actually uses the phrase "it's good, because it's like life" to describe a game in which you kill an unstoppable Lovecraftian monster by blowing up his henchmen's skeleton.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 00:00 |
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I know I said this like 50 pages back, but I'm not entirely convinced that the endings ruined the game for the MAJORITY of people. I'm pretty sure it's ruined for the majority of Mass Effect superfans, but let's face reality here - that's not the majority of Mass Effect players. I'm really, insanely curious about how the sales of the first single-player DLC pack are going to go, because that's really the moment that extent of the ending's damages will become clear. If it doesn't meet expectations (and believe me, EA has sales data and DLC attachment rates from all of Mass Effect 2 and their other franchises as well, so the expectations ARE there), and the gap is large enough, it won't matter what the ME3 team thinks about their ending: the suits will step in and demand action. On one hand I know that internet nerds (myself included) sometimes waver on their commitments if the content is good enough. On the other hand I know that a terrible ending really does destroy franchises (see: The Matrix). So I'm intensely curious about how this will all turn out.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 14:57 |
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omg car crash posted:I know I'm going against almost every person here, but I honestly enjoy the idea of a bleak ending. I'm not at all saying I like what we ended up with, but I enjoy the idea that the relays are gone and the galactic fleet is, more or less, stranded in the Sol system. Sure, we won, but the cost is immense. I'd love another game where we play in this broken universe, trying to rebuild the Galatia community and/or trying to find new means to reunite it. That's fine, here's the thing: most of us in this thread absolutely unequivocally support a bleak ending as a possible ending. The problem is that this is an interactive story game, and the story can be anywhere from: 1) Shep the hardass space marine who shoots one of his own teammates for insubordination, sacrifices the Council to stop Sovereign, gets most of his team killed on a Suicide Mission, fucks a sickly alien babe (making her sicker) and then watches her jump off a cliff after he backs the robot destroyers of her race, and dooms another race to extinction. 2) Shep the peacemaker who never backs down from his principles, is wracked with guilt over the one teammate he did lose, beats impossible odds again and again such as: having his ENTIRE TEAM survive a Suicide Mission, brokers peace to a 300 year old war, and giving a future to a dying race. Yes, Game #1 absolutely should have the option of a bleak ending. But it is Totally Stupid to give a bleak ending to Game #2, in the same manner that it would be wrong to have Luke die on the Death Star and then the explosion blow up the Rebel Alliance Fleet and the falling debris kill Han and Leia. It simply does not work with the tone of the story.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 15:17 |
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Batham posted:I honestly think that they didn't know how to end the game, and just burped out this unclear & incoherent crap. The ending? Make your own ending! It's pretty obvious that the ending was rushed garbage. There's no real malice here; they just ran out of time. Unfortunately the thing that they did have time to make basically wrecks the franchise. When writing the ending of a three part trilogy, the author should probably ask themselves: Would people pick up and play the first game if they knew how this all ended up? If the player knew that their heroic victories in Mass Effect 1 & 2 to preserve galactic civilization were going to be undone, regardless of their actions, would they actually want to play this Epic Space Opera? I think there's a very obvious answer to that.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 15:30 |
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Darko posted:Star Wars was going to have a much darker/bleaker ending, partially established by the tone of Empire, until Lucas replaced everyone that disagreed with him with yes men for Jedi. This really has nothing to do with what we're talking about. The original "bleak" ending (where Han Solo dies midway through the movie and Luke walks off as a scarred jerk) was never shot, not even a portion of it, and was never even hinted at for years. So we don't even have, say, contemporary newspaper or magazine accounts of what people would have thought of such an ending. As an aside, I will say that even Star War's most "bleak" ending kept Luke alive, and kept the universe that the Rebel Alliance was fighting for basically intact, which is a lot less bleak than Mass Effect 3.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 15:39 |
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Darko posted:You don't necessarily make a game "in order." It's not always constructed from start to end. Yes, it's almost as though they didn't have time to go back and redo the cinematic when the ending was changed. Almost as if there was a lack of time to fully explore the ending they finally settled on, to fully realize it creatively, and that they had to use an existing asset that they made earlier. A lack of time. What could be another word for that, I wonder?
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 15:43 |
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Darko posted:Or it could have been a budgetary decision. They probably thought they retrofit it enough in there and singed off on it. You're splitting hairs. Let's just agree they were crimped in some fashion creatively, whether it be time or money.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 15:51 |
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CJ posted:Why do you think it was rushed? They obviously put a lot of effort into the sequence. Kotor 2 had a rushed ending, DX:HR had a rushed ending. To me it just seems horribly misguided. Oh there's a bunch of things: The similarities of the endings. It's basically different colored filters on a pre-rendered video, with TINY little changes (less than 15 seconds all told). This smells like they didn't have time or money to do unique endings. The weird disconnect between what Shepard does and what the Normandy does, with no video or audio to help explain it. Again, no time or money to explain this, had to use existing animations in a way that didn't make sense. The abruptness and strange tone of it. The entire narrative is going one way and then you suddenly ride an elevator to a different game. They ran out of time or money to do what they were actually going for. The fact that what's told to you in the last 5 minutes doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about it, even a little. Could be just bad writing though. The fact that the last part is only Shep and one other character, nobody else. After you ride the elevator you literally hear only 2 other voices for the entire game. It's almost like DLC in that sense - a limited amount of actors involved with very low blocking on the dialogue.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 15:59 |
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Dan Didio posted:I'm just going to say it, I don't think either of these endings are thematically appropriate or should even be possible in the game. At least, the basic concept. I think that you should be able to have a Shep Lives ending, but it should only be possible if you play New Game+, play on Insanity, finish all the achievements, and get your readiness up to 100%. Basically what I'm saying is that if Shep lives, you will definitely have to experience an ending where he or she dies, and have put a lot of effort into the game, more than 98% of what most people are willing to do.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 16:09 |
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You know it's pretty funny that they got all, "We're sorry guys, we'll try to do better" with their dumb Mass Effect tie-in novel but are just sort of hemming and hawing about the far greater backlash to their far more important ending to the goddamn trilogy. Edit: And it goes without saying that I would have totally accepted Forced ShepDeath in all endings if they were any good at all.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 16:25 |
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paint dry posted:How would you handle it? Don't say "I wouldn't write a lovely ending in the first place." I'm just curious, not calling you out or anything. Honestly if I were Casey Hudson (and I mean REAL Casey Hudson, not the PR android that apparently took him over in 2009) I would just post a mea culpa and throw yourself on the fan's mercy. Just something like "Hey we're really sorry a lot of people didn't like the ending, we didn't have time/didn't have the money/weren't aware that we weren't communicating well to you all and we're going to fix it." Just talk to people like they are human beings, you took their money and then (for a pretty good portion of them) tainted the entire series. Hell you put them to a poll where you say something along the lines of: "We can do a free DLC that will try to explain more, unfortunately it will be pretty stripped down with no new voice acting. Or we can do a 10 dollar version where we get the cast back in and really go nutso with the whole thing, we need that money because we're out of budget on the title now and BIG BAD EA, we want to do the right thing for the majority guys honest." Then you let the fans decide, and they really do have a choice: pay for a new (supposedly great) ending or not. Whichever one they go with you now have an out (it's what the fans wanted) and you do it.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 16:44 |
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What the gently caress? The host of the Indoor Kids just called everyone requesting a change an "entitled" piece of poo poo and linked to an article on Badass Digest. Keep in mind that this guy is a professional comedian; his method of earning a living is to go on stage with his material and present it to an audience and if they don't like it, change the material until they do.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 17:18 |
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Cthulu Carl posted:So more like ordering a steak and then getting food poisoning from the big pocket of blood in the last piece. Let's not do this. The only thing that the Mass Effect 3 ending ruined was Mass Effect. If it's having more of an effect on you, take a step back and go see John Carter and realize life's too short for that poo poo.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 17:25 |
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He's either misremembering or it's a dumb attempt to wind you all up, don't fall for it either way.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 17:50 |
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At this point I feel like everything's been discussed, but one thing I would like to leave you all with is that there is so much great science fiction out there, to not get fixated on the mess that ending made of the series. Don't sit and stew about the missed opportunity; switch gears and take in some truly great science fiction. Go look at the list of Hugo award winners and check them out, there's some great novels on the list that will really get you thinking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Award_for_Best_Novel The new John Carter movie is actually a pretty decent Space Opera too, if a little kiddie at times.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 18:14 |
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Again, IF the majority of people really did hate the ending and it really did ruin the series and kill interest in the franchise, they are going to be absolutely shocked when the DLC doesn't sell. It sounds like they think that they have divided the community 50/50, but outside of the gaming journos that's not what I see at all, it's more like 80/20.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 19:03 |
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The most damning thing on there is the "LOTS OF SPECULATION" thing. Because it was totally handled incompetently. It's totally understandable to put a "stinger" in the ending for people to talk about for the next game (someone suggested that as the Reapers go down, they say something like "there's worse things out there in DarkSpace, Shepard") but to destroy the setting while you simultaneously fail to resolve anything at all in the entire game or give the player any catharsis at all is terrible. People want it to end, they want to get a real finish to all of the themes and choices that they've made over the course of the 3 games. Oh btw I agree with Darko, everything in the cut Anderson scene just slows it down and wrecks the pacing.
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| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 19:28 |
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| # ¿ May 21, 2013 04:01 |
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Cyrano4747 posted:They are doing it for money. This is not true. Some of them are doing it because Games Are Art and you can't ask the Artist to Change His Perfect work. Some of them genuinely believe this and are defending the game even though the ending is absolute poo poo. Nevermind the fact that games literally do not exist without input from the players. It's an entire artform that the participant actively engages and interacts with. Nevermind that books, television, and even movies have changed their endings, either by putting out a revised edition or revising/changing their meaning in a sequel, or changing it in a Director's Cut, or changing it as a result of Focus Group testing. Nope, gamers are entitled because they do the same thing that people in other forms of mass media do, because GAMES AREN'T MASS MEDIA THEY ARE SPECIAL ART PIECES. I guess what I'm saying is, there are people who believe that they have a dog in the fight (games are art) and are legitimately defending it. Edit: also, because Darko posted:they're hearing opinions from the worst parts of this thread X10. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at Mar 15, 2012 around 19:51 |
| # ¿ Mar 15, 2012 19:43 |
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