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I really didn't hate the endings as much as everyone here seemed to. That might be because I think it's likely Bioware will release DLC later on that adds missions where you can go and find tech/allies/whatever that'll give you access to different endings. The fact that the post-game takes you back to right before the point-of-no-return helps that theory. And everyone's gonna throw a god-almighty poo poo-fit over having to pay extra to get the better ending. But they're gonna pay anyways. Personally, I'm okay with it.
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| # ¿ Mar 17, 2012 18:04 |
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| # ¿ May 19, 2013 10:03 |
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I actually really liked everything leading up to the confrontation with the Catalyst. The whole Shepard alone and battered having to limp his way agonizingly to the end of the game really struck me (though I'm sure him moving so slowly would get annoying on subsequent playthroughs). I guess it was because I was expecting another mission where you and two of your teammates storm the Citadel and kill Reaper forces to get to the control panel. It just ran so contrary to what I expected, but not in a bad way.
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| # ¿ Mar 17, 2012 18:49 |
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I don't hate the Catalyst ending. Not like a lot of people here obviously do. I can easily imagine something better, though. Something that's more thematically consistent. Shepard's biggest strength is bringing people together, so it probably would have made for a better ending if it was the culmination of that. Shepard starts the confrontation alone, but one by one his surviving companions find ways to help him. All of the fleets and races he recruited come to his aid. Basically, everything you've done over the past half-decade and three games comes to fruition. There's still room for an awesome heroic sacrifice (or not, the choice could lead to two different but no less powerful endings), but the victory doesn't feel quite as hollow or pyrrhic.
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| # ¿ Mar 17, 2012 18:59 |
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messagemode1 posted:I'm not sure if this is any different from how people are hating on the ending. Because I literally don't hate the ending? I can recognize room for improvement while, at the same time, not being entirely dissatisfied with the endings we got? Not sure what you're even trying to say.
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| # ¿ Mar 17, 2012 20:30 |
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Aristobulus posted:I, uh, am not exaggerating. I do hate the ending. It killed the IP for me, and I loved the Mass Effect universe. Exactly. For some people, the endings literally made them angry and invalidated their entire half-decade odyssey. That's not the case with me. Simple as that.
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| # ¿ Mar 17, 2012 21:03 |
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thepopstalinist posted:he doesn't move around the ship the way some of the other party members do. He does. I've found him in Jack's old room and chilling in the mess while James makes his abuela's eggs.
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| # ¿ Mar 17, 2012 21:22 |
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Oxxidation posted:He was gutshot, and that was after going through a warzone and Harbinger's death march. The man was finished. Man, I have to say Anderson dying was the biggest gut-punch this game gave me. Even moreso than Mordin, Thane, or Kelly dying. It's especially heartrending if you listen to the dialogue that was cut from that scene. He just wanted a family and he's proud of Shepard, his surrogate son. 
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 03:01 |
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WAR FOOT posted:The whole run down was tense. Honestly, the entire run+walk scene could be better if after you kill MARAUDER SHIELDS, SPACE HERO you got teleported to the room with Anderson, instead of having to walk through the Citadel. I think that scene was fine, and added to the tension of the situation. I just think you should maybe have been able to move a bit faster. As it was the pace you moved at went beyond atmospheric and right to painful. I re-played the ending to try a different choice and having to shuffle slowly up to the beam then slowly through the keeper tunnels was agonizing. I also think that if there ever is a DLC that gives you another option at the end, it should involve you seeing the faces of all the people you've lost along the way, realizing that the three choices offered to you are a complete betrayal of what they gave their lives for, and you flipping the Catalyst off and doing whatever it is you do to get the best ending. EDIT: Oh, and after you tell the Catalyst off it drops the whole little kid facade and addresses you in full-on Harbinger-esque Reaper mode, but all it can do it impotently threaten you. I like that. Phylodox fucked around with this message at Mar 18, 2012 around 03:18 |
| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 03:15 |
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The sad part is I can actually kind of see what they were trying to do with the ending. They wanted to go for something emotionally resonant, but they did so at the expense of logical (or, indeed, internal) consistency. It's like they didn't expect their primary fan base to endlessly analyze the ending and just accept it at face value, based solely on emotion. EDIT: VV Well, there are basically two ways they can react. They can admit that the endings are problematic and vow to work on and release DLC (hopefully for free) that will patch in new endings or they can go into sulky child mode and complain loudly about how the fans "don't understand their vision" and "lack the maturity to handle a less-than-perfectly-happy bittersweet ending". Personally, I'm hoping for the first one because more options are always better than less. If people actually liked the original three endings, they can always still choose them, after all. VV Phylodox fucked around with this message at Mar 18, 2012 around 04:11 |
| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 04:01 |
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Spiritus Nox posted:It doesn't even work on an emotional level. I felt nothing as Shepard dove into the beam of light - except maybe frustration. You can't simply radically alter the tone of the story in the last five minutes and expect a positive reaction under the best of circumstances. Add in the incredible buildup to the bizzare swerve and the utter lack of catharsis and you're left with something that really is indefensible. If the great Mac Walters deigns to use editors (which I'm beginning to sorely doubt), those editors should be fired for not screaming him down from this. Yeah, but it falls flat because of the context it's in. Taken out of the context of the preceding games, it hits all the emotional notes: Shepard's selfless, heroic sacrifice...the galaxy's loss of innocence and the high price they pay for victory...and the cautious hope reflected in the last scene of the crew emerging on a lush, vibrant new world. It's only when you think about it for a moment that you realize it doesn't fit with the rest of the story. When you think about it a little further, the logical problems start to crop up, like what are the turians and quarians supposed to eat etc. It's especially bad because, up until that point, Mass Effect 3 was basically an absolutely pitch-perfect end to the series. The overwhelming sense of dread tempered with Shepard's unfailing optimism, the themes of redemption and unification, they all felt like the natural culmination of everything you'd done up until that point. Scenes of loss like the deaths of Mordin and Thane (and Kelly's ignominious off-screen death) really hurt. Seeing names you recognize on the memorial wall hits you in a real, visceral way. The end of Grunt's mission is absolutely wonderful and uplifting, because at that point you've realized that anyone can die, no one is safe, so when you see him come stumbling out of that cave you feel a renewed sense of hope. You can save some people. Then the ending just kind of sits there, like something from a different franchise. Maybe it would have been effective in that franchise, but it doesn't really work here.
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 04:20 |
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Ambiguatron posted:I hate myself for feeling this way, but I'd pay like a whole god drat dollar or something just to put Kelly's name on the memorial wall. I get why they didn't. She wasn't part of the Normandy crew or on a mission with the Normandy crew when she got aced. She was just helpin' out on the Citadel.
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 04:25 |
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DFu4ever posted:Neither was Thane or Legion. No, but they were serving alongside the crew of the Normandy when they went down in the line of duty. It's not a fantastic justification, but it's there.
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 04:30 |
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Spiritus Nox posted:Exactly. That's the sort of thing I've been saying the whole time - it's not a horrid scene on it's own merits, it's horrid because it utterly contradicts everything Mass Effect has ever been about, on both narrative and personal levels. Like I said, I don't hate it. It doesn't ruin the whole Mass Effect experience for me. It just feels like...well, not even like a square peg in a round hole...like a kind of oval peg in a round hole. It fits, but you kind of have to mash up both the peg and the hole to get it in there. quote:Of course, this complete 180 in the game's message makes perfect sense if it's a soon to be patched Indoctrination Fever Dream. I want to believe! I'm all for a new ending, but the evidence for the indoctrination ending is really pretty flimsy. Most of what I saw were just UI or gameplay peculiarities. Oh, and I honestly thought that the Reapers were going to end up being like the galaxy's white blood cells and every once in a while they have to come in and combat the organic races that are infecting and threatening to overrun the galaxy. Phylodox fucked around with this message at Mar 18, 2012 around 04:39 |
| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 04:37 |
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Dolphin Fetus posted:The biggest hurdle I see is getting the voice actors back but come on..they sold several million copies, it can't cost THAT much to get the cast back together for 30 more minutes of voice acting. But Freddie Prinze Jr. is so busy lately!
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 04:45 |
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r1ngwthszzors posted:The indoctrination fever dream ending just sounds bad. Who's going to knock you out of the indoctrination? Are you going to have to shoot yourself in the head, ie the Bioware cure for indoctrination? Though I don't buy the "evidence" behind the indoctrination ending, I did kind of like the idea that both the control and synthesize endings were basically Shepard being indoctrinated and submitting the Reapers' will, while the destroy ending (characterized by Anderson) represents Shepard fighting back and overcoming the indoctrination, as evidenced by the little coda where Shepard wakes up among some rubble that you can only get with that ending.
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 04:56 |
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Maybe the Catalyst should have manifested as Shepard himself, like God in Star Trek V. EDIT: Then again, what does a starship need with God?
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 05:11 |
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The kid represents everyone, though. That's why, when you're dreaming about the kid, you're hearing little snippets of dialogue in the background from the crewmembers who've died. I thought that was actually pretty effective.
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 05:19 |
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Vengarr posted:After hearing the whole indoctrination theory mentioned, I think it makes more sense in that context. That's why the "dream world" deteriorates and becomes darker as you proceed through the game. Also, all of the indoctrinated victims mentioned hearing voices, right? That definitely qualifies. No, I think that's definitely a stretch. I think it's pretty cut-and-dry, really. Shepard's having dreams that reflect his intense anxiety about being almost solely responsible for saving the entire loving galaxy coupled with his intense sense of guilt and loss over the crewmembers who've been lost under his command. Frogisis posted:Yeah, it was pretty clear that's what he was supposed to be, I just didn't think it worked. Sure, have him show up and get killed in the beginning, but a much better symbol for "everyone" would have literally been everyone. Each little mini-chase in the dream could have been of a different person who died, with the shadows representing all the extras who never even got names. The kid could be in there, too a couple times, but I don't think he should get to be the frontman. Gotta disagree, then. In this case, I think symbolism worked much better than something overt. It's dream logic, and I think the kid plus the background voices tell you everything you need to know very effectively. Phylodox fucked around with this message at Mar 18, 2012 around 05:29 |
| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 05:26 |
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Vengarr posted:You can only apply that mode of thinking to a Shepard who gives a poo poo about either. Renegade Shepards have other motivations, like really hating Reapers, and aren't going to lose any sleep about shooting Wrex, or throwing Kaiden to the dogs, or sacrificing those hostages, or...I could go on. Anyone who can shoot Ashley in cold blood isn't going to be having nightmares about her later. He may be an rear end in a top hat, but he's still human (mostly). Anyone would feel anxiety about saving the whole of mankind. It's seriously not indoctrination. There's absolutely no evidence to support it. It's very obvious (almost to the point of heavy-handed) symbolism. rudecyrus posted:Man, even if Bioware decided to redo the ending, who's to say they won't screw that up? I have no confidence in them right now. Really? The enjoyable 95% of the series have bought them more than a little goodwill on my part, at least.
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 05:35 |
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Vengarr posted:He's been saving the whole of mankind for three games and two years, why start having nightmares now? Because up until now the Reapers have been an omnipresent threat, but only now are they actually blowing the gently caress out of Earth right now at this very second. Literally every second Shepard is out on his ship doing whatever, Reapers are tromping all over Earth cities and lasering people and poo poo. That would give anyone nightmares. computer parts posted:In a sense that's even worse though since it goes back to Bioware's old "there's one definitively right answer" flaw that they have in their stories, even in this case where they give you *two* options. Unless the game continued beyond that point. In that case, it's kind of like a big, elaborate conversation sequence where the wrong choices give you the downer ending instead of just giving you Renegade points or whatever. If you chose to fight the indoctrination, Shepard would wake up and the game would continue to its more reasonable, logical conclusion. Phylodox fucked around with this message at Mar 18, 2012 around 05:48 |
| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 05:45 |
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Red Mundus posted:Speaking of which what happens if you don't do the renegade interrupt? I pressed it because I treated it like a QTE and was afraid I would have to restart if I did nothing. You wait until he strikes, then dodge like a badass and stab him when he overbalances.
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 06:28 |
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I think I dreamed a better ending to this game last night. I dreamed that the whole "indoctrination" ending was true, and Shepard woke up amongst the ruins of London and entered the transporter beam or whatever and ended up on the Citadel. He opened up the arms and the Crucible was about to dock when Harbinger confronted Shepard and told him he couldn't do this, the cycle was a necessary part of the galaxy, without it organic life would overrun the galaxy, deplete it, and eventually kill it. Shepard basically tells Harbinger to gently caress off and allows the Crucible to dock. At first nothing happens, but eventually it becomes clear (somehow, it didn't really explain it explicitly in my dream) that the Citadel had become a kind of super-relay that could connect to an inter-galactic relay network. Basically, organic life was given all of the universe in which to expand. The Reapers don't know what to make of this, but Shepard convinces Harbinger that, given all of the new space organic life has to expand in, they could never possibly overtake it all. The Reapers are noncommittal, but agree to retreat to the dark space with the vague threat/promise to return if organic life ever becomes too populous again. I dunno, my brain does weird things when I'm asleep.
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 20:56 |
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Eel hovercraft posted:6. The background to the circular room appears to be the streets on the Citadel arms, complete with heavy traffic. I prefer the idea that the Reaper forces didn't even bother to invade the Citadel, they just kind of towed it to Earth and no one on board is any the wiser. At one point Bailey is walking along and looks out a window to see Earth and goes, "Wha-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-at?!?"
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 21:04 |
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The Illusive Man is obviously coo-coo for Cocoa Puffs.
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 21:52 |
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Cthulu Carl posted:"Shepard... You're in my chair..." 
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| # ¿ Mar 18, 2012 22:28 |
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I think a much better (and simpler) way to have ended the Illusive Man's character arc (and include a major villain conspicuously absent from the game) would have been to replace the confrontation with the Illusive Man we have with something like this: (Shepard approaches the console and prepares to open the Citadel's arms. Suddenly, he is distracted by a voice:) THE ILLUSIVE MAN: Shepard...! (Shepard whirls, raising his pistol to fire, but stops, a look of horror and disgust crossing his face. We cut to a shot of the Illusive Man staggering towards Shepard, looking more husk than human at this point, the only part of him recognizable being his cybernetic blue eyes.) THE ILLUSIVE MAN: (Reaches out to Shepard, obviously wracked with pain.) I was wrong... (The Illusive Man's body is suddenly galvanized, back arching impossibly, arms splayed out, a terrible, pained cry wrenched from his flayed lips. His trademark blue eyes dim, then shift to a familiar amber colour, blazing with terrible intelligence.) HARBINGER: ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.
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| # ¿ Mar 19, 2012 20:54 |
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kater posted:I don't think anyone's mad at Levine. He's fundamentally right. Nothing good will come of this. I think good would come of it if the whole debacle somehow forced the writers to sit down and actually think through a decent, fulfilling ending (or endings) to the five-year odyssey that is the flagship of their company. But they probably won't. I get the sense that pride is heavily involved, and that they would sooner quit the company than compromise their "vision".
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| # ¿ Mar 19, 2012 23:29 |
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I still like the idea of the Reapers destroying advanced civilizations to keep them from overrunning and eventually depleting the galaxy, and the Crucible basically super-charging the Citadel into a super-relay that connects to a huge, universe-spanning relay network that'll take civilization more time than is actually left before the heat-death of the universe to explore, much less deplete, thus rendering the Reapers' mission moot and sending them back into hibernation in Dark Space. You wouldn't even really have to change Buzz Aldrin's dialogue all that much, just re-record some of the kid's. I've bolded all the changes I made: KID: Did that all really happen? STARGAZER: Yes, but some of the details have been lost in time. It all happened so very long ago. KID: When can I see the universe? STARGAZER: One day. KID: What will be there? STARGAZER: Anything you can imagine. There are more stars in the universe than you could ever count. Each of those stars could have many worlds. Every world could be home to a different form of life. And every life is a special story of its own. KID: Tell me another story about Commander Shepard. STARGAZER: It's getting late, but okay. One more story... So get Mr. Aldrin in to re-record one (maybe two if you can't cut the "my sweet" out perfectly) line of dialogue. The thing I like most about this is that it expands the Mass Effect universe, it doesn't narrow it. Who wouldn't be excited about a game that ends with literally the entire universe being opened up for you?
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| # ¿ Mar 21, 2012 22:44 |
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Buddy Holly posted:Wouldn't "There are more galaxies in the universe than you could ever count." be better? That way you can also pretend the Stargazer is in a completely different galaxy than our own, which would make Shepard even cooler. I don't see how what I wrote implies they're in our galaxy. All it implies is that the grandkid is rip-rarin' to go out exploring the entire universe, and that it's actually a possibility for him, rather than a vague, pie-eyed hope.
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| # ¿ Mar 21, 2012 23:09 |
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wasianchickn posted:I will gladly buy Mass Effect 4, wherein Shepard and Co. ride Harbinger's corpse beyond Dark Space to find new forms of life to headbutt. And the first form of life they encounter have no heads. Shepard immediately says, "gently caress this!" then goes back and destroys the Citadel because "The universe loving sucks, guys!" 
Phylodox fucked around with this message at Mar 21, 2012 around 23:13 |
| # ¿ Mar 21, 2012 23:11 |
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You know, if I were in a position of authority at Bioware, I'd be so jazzed at the opportunities this whole fiasco afforded. It would give Bioware the chance to really, really distinguish themselves as a game company that listens to its client base. They could redefine the provider/consumer relationship forever. It could establish exactly how distinct a medium video games are. I doubt they see it that way, though.
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| # ¿ Mar 21, 2012 23:41 |
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midwat posted:Gaming will never mature as a medium as long as its creators/critics desperately seek validation from other media. I think it's downright stupid to compare this to movies or literature, since neither of those have a built-in mechanism for making changes after the fact the way video games do nowadays. Once you buy a book or a DVD, that's it, what you get is what you get. With the advent of DLC, however, video games have become an always-changing and (hopefully) improving form of media. This is just the next logical step.
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| # ¿ Mar 22, 2012 00:19 |
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mackintosh posted:I cannot believe anyone in their right mind can possibly suggest that a computer game - a product whose singular purpose is to entertain the purchaser - is an art form. That's just beyond ludicrous. This product either fulfills that purpose or it does not. If it does not, it falls into obscurity and is quickly replaced by something else that does. It is in the developer's best interest to change the product in accordance with customers' wishes. Games can be art in the same way movies can be art. It's designed as a consumer product to entertain, but it can be well made enough that it transcends its purpose and becomes culturally significant. The idea that art is always unassailable is what's stupid. Criticism is an integral part of art, and the thing that makes video games so unique is the unprecedented bi-directionality of information flow between producer and consumer. The industry needs to embrace that uniqueness, not fight against it.
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| # ¿ Mar 22, 2012 00:29 |
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Mr.Unique-Name posted:My only problem is with saying poor mechanics or writing are the same thing as a game-breaking bug. I'm not sure I agree with the idea, but I can see the rationale behind it, especially in a game like Mass Effect where story and gameplay are so inextricably intertwined. If you played through the entire game as a Paragon and somehow got the Renegade ending cinematic, that would be a bug. The fact that this game functionally only has one real ending with incredibly minor variations regardless of your actions during the preceding 100 or so hours approaches that in terms of game-breakage. ZombieLenin posted:Lots of people seem to complain about the fact that it isolates all the species and traps the Quarians near earth. I don't really have a problem with this since we know that ships, in and of themselves, are fitted with mass effect drives and travel faster than light (all be it slower than jumping via relay). For instance in the Arrival in ME3 you blow up a mass relay, which forces the Reapers to fly for 3 extra years in order to reach earth. Except that Bioware made sure to include a nice little post-credits sequence to make absolutely sure that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that absolutely none of these things happen. Phylodox fucked around with this message at Mar 22, 2012 around 00:36 |
| # ¿ Mar 22, 2012 00:33 |
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Cav posted:It's nothing new. Any time a game gets close to actually having a plot that can stand up to any kind of scrutiny it gets elevated above say the enjoyment you take from a summer popcorn flick, the writers of said game suddenly are elevated to genius status. Over a decade ago I remember video game fans being super defensive about Wing Commander when the movie was coming out because as the best series in terms of storytelling at the time they were convinced there was no way it could fail to translate into a movie. Not to mention this familliar guy right here.
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| # ¿ Mar 22, 2012 00:54 |
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ShineDog posted:That's one colony formed with a handful of people from a wrecked starship though? Well, it's far enough into the future that Shepard has attained legendary status (I think a leaked script or something said 10,000 years). The crew of the Normandy doesn't have anywhere near enough people to form a sustainable society for even a few generations without resorting to rampant inbreeding. The implications of it being the same planet the Normandy crashed on are exponentially more disturbing than it being Earth.
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| # ¿ Mar 22, 2012 01:07 |
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That ending plays regardless of your decision, meaning that it's at least 66% likely that Buzz Aldrin and his grandson are cataclysmically inbred monsters. loving speculation all around, everyone.
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| # ¿ Mar 22, 2012 01:12 |
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Spite posted:The image is from deviant art, after all. Is it from DeviantArt or did the artist who created it post it on DeviantArt? I know one of the concept artists for Bioware has an account and posts their stuff pretty regularly.
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| # ¿ Mar 22, 2012 01:21 |
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It's not like the fans are demanding that Bioware pander to them. They just want an ending or endings that are thematically consistent with the rest of the story.
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| # ¿ Mar 22, 2012 02:07 |
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| # ¿ May 19, 2013 10:03 |
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CelestialScribe posted:Just because the game is interactive doesn't mean we get to dictate what a company does or doesn't do. When they fall down as badly as Bioware did in terms of tone and quality, we certainly have the right to complain. We can demand whatever we want whenever we want. Ultimately it's up to the companies if they give in or not, but for something as tone deaf as this ending, for a reaction as negative and unprecedentedly vocal as this one, you're damned right Bioware should give in.
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| # ¿ Mar 22, 2012 02:16 |
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