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Master_Odin
Apr 15, 2010

My spear never misses its mark...

ladies


the black husserl posted:

I think it's way more likely that NMA will be crying about their character being hidden away on a corner of the map rather than us crying about it being an essential part of the game.
I think that's really the best that's going to be for these. At best, a wink and a nod to the people who helped, but not some major game component that might be a determent to the enjoyment of others.

I do think Tim Schafer and Wasteland 2 can make/break this model right now depending on how development goes on these/time it takes/etc to keep the steam going for it.

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Armor-Piercing
Sep 22, 2009

Nightly dance
of bleeding swords


If you have 10 Luck and the Explorer perk, you have a small chance of a special encounter where you find the ruins of the inXile building in which you will find a list of the people who contributed enough to be in the game and a safe containing the exact amount of money the kickstarter raised.

Republican Vampire
Jun 2, 2007



the black husserl posted:

I think it's way more likely that NMA will be crying about their character being hidden away on a corner of the map rather than us crying about it being an essential part of the game.

Apparently Brother None has been in private communication with Brian Fargo, who has already made an extension for NMA (the location/item/NPC tier at 1k was already filled).

If it were like the bar of broken dreams in FO2 I wouldn't care, but I'm honestly not sure. Like Boiled Water says, the bulk of it would be FO2-style Easter-Egg content, but the number of donors makes it a disproportionately large amount of fan-generated content.

Seashell Salesman
Aug 4, 2005


DemonNick posted:

Apparently Brother None has been in private communication with Brian Fargo, who has already made an extension for NMA (the location/item/NPC tier at 1k was already filled).

If it were like the bar of broken dreams in FO2 I wouldn't care, but I'm honestly not sure. Like Boiled Water says, the bulk of it would be FO2-style Easter-Egg content, but the number of donors makes it a disproportionately large amount of fan-generated content.

It's not fan generated though, it's named after a fan. If NMA successfully get a bar named after them in the game, then a) they have made a special deal that the other 100 pledges didn't get and b) they don't get to design the building and put quests and NPCs inside it.

Also, considering how gamers will buy the same AAA turds every year, while screaming "never again", I don't think any number of outright failures could sink `crowdsourcing'.

Jesto
Dec 22, 2004

Balls.


Nevermind.

Jesto fucked around with this message at Jul 30, 2014 around 16:09

Quest For Glory II
Dec 17, 2003



Jesto posted:

So Kickstarter got over $150,000 of the pie raised for Double Fine Adventure. That seems like a bit much. Or, I wonder if they cap it at $1,000 or something?
Doublefine's kickstarter broke their donation record in the first day, I don't think they really thought the ceiling could ever get that high. Most game projects are lucky to get to 5 figures.

I love Kickstarter. I love when good projects get funded, and I love when terrible projects fail. The best place to look is RECENTLY LAUNCHED. An endless waterfall of great and terrible projects will flow down your computer screen. Everything from Burning Man floats to DeviantArt Mangas to Bejeweled knockoffs to Smackjeeves webcomics.

Someone said that it's disingenuous for a for-profit developer to use this site. I have to point this out: Kickstarter is not a charity website. Charity and donations are AGAINST their TOS. They are a site for funding projects, period. Businesses use the site all the time. Keep in mind that the money for games comes from somewhere; either a developer "begs for money" from the internet or they "beg for money" from a publisher. There's honestly no difference to me. Kickstarter may be a middleman but it is a middleman that eliminates middlemen. It gives people a venue to pitch directly to the consumer, rather than hope to get lucky with a publisher only to have it be twisted in a completely different idea. There are no figurative bootstraps here.

Anyway, people are not idiots, and that's the big thing. If Ubisoft tried to fund something through Kickstarter, people wouldn't fund it. However, if the creator of Beyond Good & Evil pitched BG&E2 to Kickstarter as an independent project, people would flock to it, even though the original was an Ubisoft title. It's all about connecting with the audience.

This site's been running for a few years now and many game projects have been funded. Doublefine managed to create a brand new tier of success, but there's been plenty of success in the past, respectable success on its own level. Have some people taken the money and ran? It happens on occasion. Don't go in with your eyes closed and your hands over your ears, that's all. The majority of projects do not end up being a dine & dash, for what it's worth. The projects that succeed the most are music and comics projects, which are almost always nothing more than pre-orders for content that already exists or will be made no matter what. That's not really possible with a game, but I have seen games projects opt donators into betas and get hands on with the product while it's in development, and those projects seem to get funded more often than the "I promise this'll get made, all I need is to hire a bunch of people to actually make it because i'm just the idea guy" project or the "this game will allow you to literally be god in real life. You will develop super powers by playing this game, also free pizza for everyone in the world" project.

Last thought before I go to sleep; if I had a nickel for every Kickstarter project that offered $5000 for a Producer credit and $10,000 for an Executive Producer credit........... I'd be an executive producer. If you are a developer and you're reading this thread, please stop doing this. Just stop it. And stop offering to fly to people's houses you loving creeps. You just stay at your house and make your little project alright.

Quest For Glory II fucked around with this message at Mar 20, 2012 around 04:49

ghouldaddy07
Jun 23, 2008


If only Shenmue 3 could be funded via this method.

Dbhjed
Jul 20, 2006

Homework?!

No love yet for Auditorium 2: Duet? It is a sequel to Auditorium, a cool little music game. You control the flow of energy to make music.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ditorium-2-duet

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

Some missions, you just can't get rid of a bomb

gmq posted:

The problem about Kickstarter for video games is that you have to wait years to get a tangible result, unlike designing and manufacturing a watch or iPhone case. I doubt the interest in these projects will last much longer, at least until the first funded game gets released.
While that might certainly be the case for games like Double Fine or Wasteland 2, the upshot is that Tim Schaefer and Brian Fargo are a lot moer guaranteed (if still not 100%) to produce a game, and a quality game, at the end of it, even if you're looking at a year or more before your investment gets back to you.

Meantime, you've got a project like FTL which has already run a fair bit of its own race and is expected to release this year. I guess it's a lot like picking a game to buy: You have to do your homework.

Jesto posted:

So Kickstarter got over $150,000 of the pie raised for Double Fine Adventure. That seems like a bit much. Or, I wonder if they cap it at $1,000 or something?
The other side of the coin would be if this was a traditional, publisher-funded game: They'd take as much as 90% of the money and would have creative and executive control over the game.

As well, the games that are going to use digital distribution will get to pocket most of the post-release sales. So, Kickstarter takes a relatively modest amount of the pre-development pledges, you get to make the game that you want, and you get to keep most of your retail sales. That's huge compared to what companies like Obsidian go through.

Kickstarter is never going to produce a game with Modern Warfare's production values, but it's better than the alternative of having to suffer through a dozen more Modern Warfares

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



ghouldaddy07 posted:

If only Shenmue 3 could be funded via this method.

I don't know if they could get the $100 million necessary.

Zombies' Downfall
Aug 20, 2005

That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives.


Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

I don't know if they could get the $100 million necessary.

At this point I think Sega might have better luck with a Kickstarter saying they'll close up shop and never make another game for $100 million.

emoticon
May 8, 2007


Quest For Glory II posted:

Someone said that it's disingenuous for a for-profit developer to use this site. I have to point this out: Kickstarter is not a charity website. Charity and donations are AGAINST their TOS. They are a site for funding projects, period. Businesses use the site all the time. Keep in mind that the money for games comes from somewhere; either a developer "begs for money" from the internet or they "beg for money" from a publisher. There's honestly no difference to me. Kickstarter may be a middleman but it is a middleman that eliminates middlemen. It gives people a venue to pitch directly to the consumer, rather than hope to get lucky with a publisher only to have it be twisted in a completely different idea. There are no figurative bootstraps here.

Actually there is a rather major difference between Kickstarter and publisher or venture funding. In traditional funding, the entity funding the project gets a cut of the profits. While I consider donating to Kickstarter the same as preordering a product that doesn't exist yet, I can see how others might liken it to charity since there is no return on the investment.

WhiteHowler
Apr 3, 2001

Yarr.

Dbhjed posted:

No love yet for Auditorium 2: Duet? It is a sequel to Auditorium, a cool little music game. You control the flow of energy to make music.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ditorium-2-duet
Ten days to go, and they're only about halfway to their goal. The original is a really great game, and the co-op play in the new one looks very fun. I hope some goons will jump on this.

Urdnot Fire
Feb 13, 2012



WhiteHowler posted:

Ten days to go, and they're only about halfway to their goal. The original is a really great game, and the co-op play in the new one looks very fun. I hope some goons will jump on this.

For what it's worth, I threw some money into it. It seems pretty cool to me.

Dbhjed
Jul 20, 2006

Homework?!

WhiteHowler posted:

Ten days to go, and they're only about halfway to their goal. The original is a really great game, and the co-op play in the new one looks very fun. I hope some goons will jump on this.

It must be really depressing for them to see DoubleFine and Wasteland 2 blow past them a few hours after opening, while they have been at it for I think 50 days and only half way there, and have a very modest budget of 60k

THE AWESOME GHOST
Oct 21, 2005

THAT'S WHAT THE SONG WAS REALLY ABOUT


What's stopping me from getting funding then just not finishing the game? This is the one thing I can't figure out.

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



THE AWESOME GHOST posted:

What's stopping me from getting funding then just not finishing the game? This is the one thing I can't figure out.

Nothing. The entire system is built on good faith. You have to pick and choose who to back based on the perceived legitimacy of their project, or their dedication to seeing it through. You can reasonably expect Double Fine to follow through because if they don't, their reputation will be ruined and their business will be destroyed. Joe Shmo wanting a million dollars for a dream MMO isn't very trustworthy and probably shouldn't be backed.

The system sort of works because they only get money if a project is fully funded. If your project looks sketchy, chances are the masses will realize this and not back you. A handful of gullible people might but they lose out on nothing because everyone else is smart enough.

At least, that's how it's worked so far. Now that it's going mainstream as a source to fund fairly expensive game projects, who knows how this will turn out. I trust the big projects so far, but eventually a bad seed will come along.

Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at Mar 20, 2012 around 06:09

Fewd
Mar 22, 2007

#vmp #opsec #kolmiloikka #happoo

DemonNick posted:

If I can be honest, I'm kind of concerned about Wasteland 2.

Their reward tiers include in-game content. Not in the sense that everyone who gives X dollars gets free DLC, but in the sense that every person who gives $1000 or more get to be content in the game. NMA, for instance, is raising money for a No Mutants Allowed bar that, if the money is raised, will show up in the game. The other 100 people at the thousand dollar level will get to be NPCs or unique items or locations in the game, and that's not even counting the 200 people who give $2500 or higher who get to add unique items to the game with user-written descriptions.

I can understand the impulse to reward these contributors and celebrate their contributions, but I'm worried that, in this case, the easter-eggy, fourth wall breaking crap might overwhelm actual interesting content.

This is my biggest concern too. But on the positive side, there are only 20 people eligible for the unique item so far. I doubt there will be much more of 2.5k+ pledges so we probably don't have to worry about the wasteland being cluttered with dragon dildos from the internet.

I think future kickstarters could go much lighter on the reward side. If people want your game, they will donate whether or not they get a statue or whatever else stupid in the game. Also, all those figurines, survival kits and other reward stuff can get expensive to make, so it's kind of counterproductive to offer them.

Songbearer
Jul 12, 2007


Fuck you say?


I'm so happy for Tim and everyone and I backed Double Fine because at the end of the day, more than anyone else I believe that the talented folks at that company would be more than capable of making full benefit of the money they've been given in order to make a fantastic game. They've created games like Monkey Island and Day of the Tentacle on much smaller budgets and they have a real passion for their work, so it seems like a safe bet.

However I can't help but feel extremely annoyed at the amount of developers jumping onto using Kickstarter. The Wasteland 2 one I didn't mind so much because it sounded like something they really wanted to do, but then I hear bullshit like people wanting to develop Baldurs Gate 3 using Kickstarter and no no no this is completely stupid.

Until Kickstarter has proven itself to be a service where it's worth backing developers, that you'd get a product that has just as much if not MORE effort for your money than if you let a big name publisher take care of the deal, then it's just not worth putting your money behind a company. In Double Fine's case, Tim himself said he was overwhelmed by the response but fully believes that the circumstances in which it generated so much money was so incredibly specific, being a brand of customer loyalty and appreciation of a niche genre, that it's honestly not a great idea for devs to be using it as their main source of funding.

More than anything, having tons of would-be developers and big name titles in the service just devalues Kickstarter. It feels like a service that's supposed to help people who literally would have no other chance to develop a game, or the costs would be too prohibitive to risk releasing the final product.

That said, if Frédérick Raynal would like money to help make Little Big Adventure 3 then I'll gladly help out

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010



The fact that no one gets anything if the kickstarter doesn't reach its goal seems to provide some small immunity from someone taking the money and running. If they fool even one less person than they need to raise their goal then the scam is a complete failure.

Seashell Salesman
Aug 4, 2005


You have to be operating in the US to be listed on Kickstarter I think, and they have your banking information, real name, etc. What are you going to argue? "Oh no judge, this happened on the internet, you can't form a contract on the internet."

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



Seashell Salesman posted:

You have to be operating in the US to be listed on Kickstarter I think, and they have your banking information, real name, etc. What are you going to argue? "Oh no judge, this happened on the internet, you can't form a contract on the internet."

There is no contract formed. As far as I know, they aren't under an actual obligation to deliver you a product. A person can't be sued if a project doesn't pan out.

There have been multiple kickstarters that got fully funded but didn't deliver, just not on the same scale as the current big game projects. The backers are just SOL.

edit: It's not a game, but it's gaming related: Idle Thumbs Video Game Podcast. The funniest, most insightful, and all around best gaming podcast ever is back, in kickstarter form. They've already been up for almost a month and are well over-funded, but more funding means more security for Chris Remo and whatever his mysterious plans are. Only 44 hours left as of now! This should perhaps be added to the OP?

Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at Mar 20, 2012 around 06:27

Seashell Salesman
Aug 4, 2005


They claim on their individual kickstarter page that they will create a thing, then they take money from kickstarter. Taking money from kickstarter constitutes consideration as far as I can tell.

rotinaj
Sep 4, 2008



Has Tim Schaefer even said what genre or style this kickstarter game(Which I DID donate for, making this question even more amusing to me) is going to be?

the black husserl
Feb 25, 2005



People talk a lot about kickstarter fatigue but I think there's a greater case for kickstarter momentum.

Donating to the Wasteland kickstarter isn't going to prevent me or anyone else from donating to an Obsidian kickstarter or something else, it's just going to make it more likely that people will be aware of the project because they've already backed something on kickstarter.

the black husserl
Feb 25, 2005



rotinaj posted:

Has Tim Schaefer even said what genre or style this kickstarter game(Which I DID donate for, making this question even more amusing to me) is going to be?

Yeah its a hidden object game.

emoticon
May 8, 2007


Seashell Salesman posted:

They claim on their individual kickstarter page that they will create a thing, then they take money from kickstarter. Taking money from kickstarter constitutes consideration as far as I can tell.

According to your language, even if there were a contract Kickstarter would have to sue them, not individuals. And Kickstarter has no reason to.

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



rotinaj posted:

Has Tim Schaefer even said what genre or style this kickstarter game(Which I DID donate for, making this question even more amusing to me) is going to be?

You should take the time to actually read the kickstarter page and watch the video that's there!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...-fine-adventure

Hint - it's in the very first line of the page.

Seashell Salesman
Aug 4, 2005


emoticon posted:

According to your language, even if there were a contract Kickstarter would have to sue them, not individuals. And Kickstarter has no reason to.

If I pay someone via an escrow (like, say a law firm) for a service, then the escrow doesn't become party to the contract. This is how movies and all kinds of things are financed AFAIK. Long, long before Kickstarter was even conceived of people were conditionally funding projects "only if the target funding is reached."

e: bizarre grammatical mistake.

Seashell Salesman fucked around with this message at Mar 20, 2012 around 07:04

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

Some missions, you just can't get rid of a bomb

Songbearer posted:

However I can't help but feel extremely annoyed at the amount of developers jumping onto using Kickstarter. The Wasteland 2 one I didn't mind so much because it sounded like something they really wanted to do, but then I hear bullshit like people wanting to develop Baldurs Gate 3 using Kickstarter and no no no this is completely stupid.
While I mostly agree with your whole post, I think it's worth noting that in the specific case of those Beamdog guys making Baldur's Gate Enhanced Editions, Kickstarter is just a gleam in their eye, at least for the moment. They're making BG1EE and possibly later BG2EE in the hopes that it'll give them enough traction for BG3 without having to resort to Kickstarter.

emoticon
May 8, 2007


Seashell Salesman posted:

If I pay someone via an escrow (like, say a law firm) for a service, then the escrow doesn't become party to the contract. This is how movies and all kinds of things are financed AFAIK. Long, long before Kickstarter was even conceived of people were conditionally funding projects "only if someone the target funding is reached."

You're right. According to the Kickstarter TOS, they are not a party to any disputes between users and creators. So if Doublefine doesn't deliver, people can try suing them, I guess.

Jefferoo
Jun 23, 2008

by Lowtax


Awh, nobody mentioned my favorite - The Arkh Project!

http://www.indiegogo.com/The-Arkh-Project

http://thearkhproject.tumblr.com/

As it stands, this is the most awful, horiffic scam ever, by a terrible person taking advantage of the lack of minority representation in videogames. Wanna read their design document?

http://thearkhproject.wikispaces.co...ail/gddedit.doc

Let me, uh, pick some choice quotes.

quote:

Chop Down Plants and Trees to Find Crafting Items
The player can chop down trees, roots, plants, and over various items to yield roots, berries, leaves and seeds. These items can be mixed with the various healing items to increase their effects. You may also find cores that can add an element to Ain's weapons.

That's... not how a design doc works.

quote:

Victory Conditions
Winning is simple; reach the end of the game, through all of the levels, and defeat the final boss. There is also a perfect completion where all items are collected

Wait, what? Perfect completion? All items? Jeepers.

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010



They plan to pay multiple programmers a total of $40,000 for 10 months work?

No part of that sentence makes sense.

Dewgy
Nov 10, 2005

METAL GEAR!?

To be honest I didn't think that design document was too bad until haaaaahahaha they want a hundred grand for that?

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010



'You win when you reach the end of the game' isn't really communicating anything.

It's like saying 'To be good at baseball you just have to hit a lot of home runs.'

Also, 'A game with a lot of gays and minorities' isn't exactly sound footing to start off on and it's scarcely better than the tokenism they're decrying. It's pandering. Come up with a game people want to play first (which seems to be something they're hardly paying attention to), then worry about that kind of what kind of characters will inhabit the world.

Hakkesshu
Nov 3, 2009

All creature will die and all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai.


Don't forget this loving thing, which I believe was posted to their tumblr (though it looks like they took it down)

A Stupid Baby
Dec 31, 2002

lip up fatty


TOOT BOOT posted:

Also, 'A game with a lot of gays and minorities' isn't exactly sound footing to start off on and it's scarcely better than the tokenism they're decrying. It's pandering. Come up with a game people want to play first (which seems to be something they're hardly paying attention to), then worry about that kind of what kind of characters will inhabit the world.

Well, I can see someone going for a realistic metric (the statistic that's thrown around is that about 10% of people on earth are gay, probably 1% of the characters in a game which features a gay character are gay). Yeah it does sound pandery though.

The big issue I see with the whole crowdsourcing thing is that it's not really letting people actually invest in a game. I mean if you're going to pay ten bucks and essentially get a 20 dollar game 50% off if it come out, that's cool if you're pretty excited about the concept of the game but I really think these things would do a lot better if people could actually get money back out at higher levels of investment.

Obviously there's people evidently willing to pony up $1K+ for lunch with a devloper or whatever, but why not see if you can get a guy who would normally only pony up 10 bucks to pony up 100 if he'll eventually get 150 back if the game hits a certain profitability threshold? You'd also probably get more large sum pledges since there's more people who would justify making an (admittedly not very lucrative) investment because they're excited about/fairly confident about a game than there are people who have the money to essentially gift money to game developers they're already fans of.

A Stupid Baby fucked around with this message at Mar 20, 2012 around 08:07

Fewd
Mar 22, 2007

#vmp #opsec #kolmiloikka #happoo

Hakkesshu posted:

Don't forget this loving thing, which I believe was posted to their tumblr (though it looks like they took it down)



Where's that huge psyduck gif that shoots more psyducks out of its eyes? Because goddamn I don't have words for this

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

D:


Fewd posted:

Where's that huge psyduck gif that shoots more psyducks out of its eyes? Because goddamn I don't have words for this

If it helps that was actually made on reddit as a joke apparently. The designers just don't get sarcasm and thought it was genuinely supportive.

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Spacedad
Sep 11, 2001
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


Hakkesshu posted:

Don't forget this loving thing, which I believe was posted to their tumblr (though it looks like they took it down)



I know this is a reddit joke, but it just goes to show how important a good story and vision for a game is. Everyone knows double-fine (and Ron Gilbert) know their stuff when it comes to story - especially story with a big heart beating inside it. Hell, I'm sure they could even do a great story with a gay central character if they put their heads to it.

Meanwhile on the right, we get a proposed project that sounds like a lumping together of a bunch of weird rear end empty pandering ideas with nothing behind them other than the weird rear end empty pandering ideas.

Spacedad fucked around with this message at Mar 20, 2012 around 08:50

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