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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Isn't it also, to at least some extent, going to be a "pay to win" game, though? I mean, the whole "free to play, but $$ sure as hell gets you ahead" is a standard industry model now and everything, they gotta fund development somehow, sure -- but that probably explains part of why the average donation is so high. If you know you're going to play a game like this, are competitive, and have too much disposable income, why not lock in some long-term advantages now? Well if they're trying to replicate the TCG experience in MMO form then pay to win is the way to go. The people who are plonking down a ton of money probably think they'd pay that much anyway so they might as well do it now when they're getting a lot more bang for their buck.
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| # ? May 18, 2013 07:02 |
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| # ? May 20, 2013 08:44 |
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TOOT BOOT posted:This is how pretty much every multiplayer F2P game works. Other F2P games I've played seemed to adopt a slightly different model, where you could generally get everything either by investing time or investing money, and money was just a shortcut. Alternatively, I'm used to seeing cash give cosmetic rewards (i.e., repainting your mech in Mechwarrior Online) but not actual game advantages. Hex seems like it has a lot of "kickstarter only" permanent rewards, like +10% experience for life or +1 extra card in your party's hands for life or "spectral lotus garden" or whatever, kickstarter-only cards, etc. I'm trying to avoid being judgmental, I realize the devs have to fund development somehow etc., but it's not hard to understand why people are plonking down the $$$ when doing so is going to get them a flat out permanent game advantage. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at May 18, 2013 around 07:22 |
| # ? May 18, 2013 07:02 |
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A lot of the ridiculously powerful cards offered in these kickstarter tiers are PVE only. So, yes if you never buy a pack of cards and play against other people with a starter deck you are going to be at a disadvantage. I just don't know if I see this as pay to win, i guess in terms of PVE content maybe, but as far as the traditional card game is between players it's no different than anything else. The obvious comparison is MTGO, you can buy a starter deck and play just fine but without booster packs for tournaments or buying individual cards you'll probably never be "competitive" with just a starter deck. From my understanding in Hex, when you make an account you get a free starter deck. It sounds like using that you can do dungeons with that deck and you can earn cards/equipment and whatnot. There's going to be an auction house so maybe you can take what you earn in those dungeons to get new cards. It sounds like there is a lot you'll be able to do without paying anything. katkillad2 fucked around with this message at May 18, 2013 around 07:24 |
| # ? May 18, 2013 07:21 |
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Have you guys ever played TCGs before? Theyre not P2W, they're pay to compete. It typically costs $150-500 for a magic deck. Less online, and this is half price of magic. I would expect competitive decks in this to be $50-200 for constructed play. For drafts its 3packs +$1, or $7, and you are all on equal footing. The PvE game isn't competitive (at least no mention of it), so I don't see what advantage is meaningful. Typically in the bigger TCGs Draft and constructed play are equally popular. If you're worried this game will be P2W you just don't understand how TCGs work lol. TCGs have never, ever been a cheap form of entertainment.
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| # ? May 18, 2013 07:26 |
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Mugaaz posted:
I guess I'm looking at this from a video game perspective rather than from a TCG perspective. $120 may be "cheap" for a TCG but for an online game that's crazy expensive. Beyond that, it's not that I'm "worried" the game will be P2W, it's obvious it will be -- I'm just pointing out to the people asking "holy hell, why are people dropping so much $$$ on Hex" that the answer is "because they'll get a long term game advantage that way." Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at May 18, 2013 around 07:37 |
| # ? May 18, 2013 07:31 |
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HiggsBoson81 posted:I got good news man, the $500 tier also gives a free draft every week! So does the (now sold out) $250 Pro Player tier. Also they hit a stretch where all tiers that include product get three free drafts at launch. Hieronymous, people are dropping big money on Hex because you can easily recoup it from the higher tiers. A King account costs $120 and gives $324 of boosters. You could play as much as you want in the beta then sell on your account at launch with all the unopened product and KS-exclusive cards. Pro Player accounts could be sold on for more, but I think a lot of them are buying it because if you don't have time to do more than one draft a week it's basically $250 up front to play a TCG without paying - and if you get bored, you'll still be able to sell the account for more than you paid.
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| # ? May 18, 2013 10:07 |
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That's somewhat risky assuming that the game will be popular enough to generate enough demand for selling accounts at those prices.
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| # ? May 18, 2013 10:18 |
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Awhile ago, I posted a link to a acquaintance's documentary Kickstarter, GTFO. It actually looked like it it wasn't going to get funded, but apparently a write-up in Forbes put it way over the top in the eleventh hour. I did notice a bit of a spike in donations after I posted it here as well, so thanks. I'm really interested in seeing the final product.
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| # ? May 18, 2013 13:18 |
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Jedit posted:So does the (now sold out) $250 Pro Player tier. Also they hit a stretch where all tiers that include product get three free drafts at launch. Ok, *that* makes sense. People are just planning on reselling the account on Ebay or whatever? Or is there some in-game mechanism for reselling?
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| # ? May 18, 2013 13:40 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Ok, *that* makes sense. People are just planning on reselling the account on Ebay or whatever? Or is there some in-game mechanism for reselling? There's going to be an in-game Auction House where you can trade cards for funbux as on MTGO, but it's unknown if there'll be an ability to cash out in money. I expect it'll be eBay.
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| # ? May 18, 2013 14:32 |
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As I understand it, almost all of the PvP rewards are alternate art or free drafts. The actual exclusive cards are PvE only, ie non-competitive. There's some blurriness with the Spectral Lotus Garden because assuming the PvE side of the game does well at all the cards it generates may become default currency, so it's kind of a soft pay to win, but there's a good number of ifs and maybes in there. The mercenaries, equipment, exclusive cards, and exclusive non-card bonuses are all PvE only. If you check the Rewards page, literally every card reward designated PvP are just alternate art.
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| # ? May 18, 2013 22:41 |
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Mugaaz posted:Have you guys ever played TCGs before? Theyre not P2W, they're pay to compete. It typically costs $150-500 for a magic deck. Less online, and this is half price of magic. I would expect competitive decks in this to be $50-200 for constructed play. For drafts its 3packs +$1, or $7, and you are all on equal footing. The PvE game isn't competitive (at least no mention of it), so I don't see what advantage is meaningful. edit: just realized I don't know if Hex is going to do this or not. Hex dev, will you be able to earn cards by just playing? edit2: Let me be more specific. It sounds like you'll be able to earn cards in PvE by playing (given how much they talk about MMO elements), what about PvP? Cicero fucked around with this message at May 18, 2013 around 22:50 |
| # ? May 18, 2013 22:47 |
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http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ft/posts/484969 The demo for Moon Rift is really rough around the edges but I really dig it. More games need to do the Borderlands thing.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 02:10 |
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:That's somewhat risky assuming that the game will be popular enough to generate enough demand for selling accounts at those prices. Let me put it this way. Magic Online is a horribly written piece of software that crashes constantly. Their tournaments are insanely overpriced, to the point where very few players can break even off tournament winnings, and the vast majority have to spend a ton of money to keep playing competitively. Wizards markets the hell out of new sets, but doesn't release them online until several weeks after they are out in paper. Despite all of this Magic Online is more popular than ever, and Wizards is making huge amounts off of it. The demand is there, and Hex is clearly offering a superior product. If only a small fraction of Magic Online players switch, they will be fine.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 03:07 |
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What I don't get about the Hex Kickstarter, is why so many backed the 'Pro Player' tier and not 'The Collector' tier. The Collector gives you alternate art PvP cards, which will be a rarity, and likely that you will be able to trade them for (just a wild guess) hundreds of booster packs on the auction house. The Pro Player gives you a free draft each week, which is what, 3 packs?. So 52x3=156 packs. If my CCG logic is right, those alternate art PvP cards are going to be worth waaaaay more than 156 packs over a year.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 03:18 |
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I just want to say that Ghost of a Tale has a little over 2 days left and is only 1,050 Euro away from reaching its goal. The game reminds me of Gothic a hell of a lot and I really want to see this get funded.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 03:26 |
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Daeno posted:What I don't get about the Hex Kickstarter, is why so many backed the 'Pro Player' tier and not 'The Collector' tier.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 03:28 |
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TychoCelchuuu posted:Yes, I suppose if you assume that something will trade for hundreds of something, then it's a better deal to get that first something, but... why do you think they will go for hundreds of booster packs? Not to mention that's a heck of a risk to take, whereas "Pro Player" assures you that no matter how badly the game bombs, you can play in a new draft each week without dropping any cash. If the game bombs, Collector won't let you do that. You'll have to pay to play drafts. It's MTGO with a better UI and more stuff, it's one of the better kickstarter bets I've seen in recent memory. If the game somehow does bomb though, why are you going to want to have a free draft every week anyways? Free poo poo is still poo poo. And are you going to even be able to draft against others at any time you want? The "game bombs" theory hurts both the Collector and Pro Player tiers. Meaning Collector is still a better option. If the game is popular, it only increases the value of the Collector tier. People will want those alternate art pvp cards bad. How do I know this? Call it a CCG player's intuition. The more players that play the more they will be worth. The only way I can see it not being worth more is if the cards they choose for alternate art are just awful hardly-used cards. Even then...I'd bet you you'd still earn more net booster value than the Pro Player tier.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 03:36 |
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Maybe it's just personal preference, but I could care less about alternate art cards. I'm sure there are going to be people out there who want 1 or 4 of every single card though. Also someone in the comments on the kickstarter page made a good point, those alternate art cards are probably going to be alternate art of some of the better cards in the game. I think it makes more sense to give alternate art to unique/legendary cards rather than commons and uncommons.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 03:37 |
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The other thing to consider is that someone who is TCG-nerd enough to want to collect rare cards and to want to play an online TCG will probably already know about this kickstarter and see the collector tier. Also, doesn't every tier after the $250 tier also get the collector cards? I just don't see these being rare enough market wise for them to hold value. The alternate art versions of cards they don't give away to people via this kickstarter are going to be the ones to get.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 03:48 |
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xgalaxy posted:The other thing to consider is that someone who is TCG-nerd enough to want to collect rare cards and to want to play an online TCG will probably already know about this kickstarter and see the collector tier. Also, doesn't every tier after the $250 tier also get the collector cards? I just don't see these being rare enough market wise for them to hold value. Actually now that I think about it, they are pretty limited. The collector tier has 6 alternate cards specific to that tier. So only the collector and any tier that includes the collector gets those cards. If the kickstarter stopped right now, there would only be 537 each of the 6 alternate cards per year. Even at a best case scenario where every tier that has these alternate art cards sell out, that's 2110 a year. So yea, if this game blows up in popularity I imagine these will be pretty valuable.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 03:52 |
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katkillad2 posted:Actually now that I think about it, they are pretty limited. The collector tier has 6 alternate cards specific to that tier. So only the collector and any tier that includes the collector gets those cards. If the kickstarter stopped right now, there would only be 537 each of the 6 alternate cards per year. Even at a best case scenario where every tier that has these alternate art cards sell out, that's 2110 a year. They're exclusive to the kickstarter tier and above. Doesn't mean some lucky person won't get an alternate art version as part of a booster. xgalaxy fucked around with this message at May 19, 2013 around 03:58 |
| # ? May 19, 2013 03:54 |
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xgalaxy posted:Their exclusive to the kickstarter tier and above. Doesn't mean some lucky person won't get an alternate art version as part of a booster. The description reads, "6 NEW alternate art PVP cards per year, exclusive to "The Collector Tier" for life of the game." I don't really interpret that description as meaning they will be available in booster packs.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 04:04 |
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Honestly, I want someone to make a card game that has the '98 Duel of The Planeswalker's weird-rear end single player mode. Who do I kickstart for that?
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| # ? May 19, 2013 04:18 |
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Al Baron posted:Honestly, I want someone to make a card game that has the '98 Duel of The Planeswalker's weird-rear end single player mode. Who do I kickstart for that?
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| # ? May 19, 2013 04:37 |
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Line Feed posted:I just want to say that Ghost of a Tale has a little over 2 days left and is only 1,050 Euro away from reaching its goal. The game reminds me of Gothic a hell of a lot and I really want to see this get funded. Well then don't worry, because with two days left there's basically a 100% chance of it getting funded.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 04:51 |
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I'd also love to back something more like Master of Magic which was in many ways similar to MTG it just threw out all the virtual card nonsense. Every fantasy tbs that has followed has completely left out the MTG element and instead was just Civ + fantasy which made them a lot less interesting.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 05:01 |
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Al Baron posted:Honestly, I want someone to make a card game that has the '98 Duel of The Planeswalker's weird-rear end single player mode. Who do I kickstart for that? That's the other half of Hex. Besides all the booster drafts and constructed tournaments, it has a "PvE" mode. You pick a race and class for your champion. You go around doing quests and dungeons so you can get loot(cards, equipment, gold) and level up your champion. It's mostly single player vs. AI decks, though there are also raids designed for 3 PC's against one AI enemy deck. The PvE side of Hex is F2P, though you are able to use the PvP cards in your PvE deck, which will give a bit of an advantage to someone that pays for boosters. I'd expect it will be easy to trade for commons and some uncommons with just the excess cards and equipment you earn. I've been wondering for years why no one ever tried making "Shandalar: the MMO". Hex isn't exactly the same, but it's close enough for me.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 06:38 |
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I have zero complaints about Hex being so similar to MTG - the fact that Wizards hasn't gotten their poo poo together with MTGO leaves a gaping hole for a competitor to swoop in and offer something better, and I don't blame Cryptozoic for deciding to go for it. That said, I'm content with the King tier. $120 isn't a ludicrous amount of money for me, and I was never much of a drafter anyway. I like the upgrade scheme on the cards - it give the game a kind of Pokemon vibe where you can technically obtain a million of a particular card but each one is an individual you "raise" separately. If someone drops a full-art foil card you instantly know that person has played the poo poo out of that card. Running into someone with a fully foiled out deck is a sign that person knows what the hell they are doing - they have experience with their deck and will be tough to beat. (None of this applies if they just bought the foils of the AH, of course.  )
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| # ? May 19, 2013 08:06 |
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FuzzySlippers posted:I'd also love to back something more like Master of Magic which was in many ways similar to MTG it just threw out all the virtual card nonsense. Every fantasy tbs that has followed has completely left out the MTG element and instead was just Civ + fantasy which made them a lot less interesting. They're not exactly what you want, but Etherlords 1 and 2 are HOMM + M:TG. The second game is better, so if you're curious that's the one to check out.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 10:06 |
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Ghost of a Tale got funded! http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ghost-of-a-tale Neat.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 13:53 |
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I don't think I've seen this in the thread before: http://www.darkwoodgame.com/ It's basically a prettier topdown Project Zomboid. Looks interesting. I suspect they'd already have their 40k if they weren't doing it through IndieGoGo. At least they picked fixed funding.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 20:43 |
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Megazver posted:I don't think I've seen this in the thread before: I really like what these guys have going so far (especially the hints at a more 'surreal' horror theme), and I'm hoping they get some more press before too long.
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| # ? May 19, 2013 22:11 |
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| # ? May 20, 2013 08:44 |
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Zonekeeper posted:I have zero complaints about Hex being so similar to MTG - the fact that Wizards hasn't gotten their poo poo together with MTGO leaves a gaping hole for a competitor to swoop in and offer something better, and I don't blame Cryptozoic for deciding to go for it. Maybe this is a dangerous way of thinking but honestly I think when the game is officially released, maybe even during the beta depending on how that works, you could probably make your entire kickstarter donation back by selling boosters for $1.75-1.50 with plenty of boosters left over. There is a MTG/MTGO thread in SA Mart so i'm sure this would be kosher there as well and hopefully the least scammy way to trade and sell.
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| # ? May 20, 2013 00:45 |
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