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Dipes
Oct 24, 2003


Occupation posted:

I have a lot of reasons I dislike it:

1) Most importantly, it's non-binding.

As seen in other industries, non-binding agreements (especially opt-in ones) are effectively useless, due to lacking teeth. Especially since it's not affiliated with Kickstarter, and since most people aren't willing to disclose financials like profits, there's no way to tell if anyone who opts in to the process is actually "kicking it forward", as it were.

Therefore, it's most effective as a meaningless PR tool (as seen already) than as a method of actual assistance.

2) 5% of a product's profits is a (potentially) incredibly large amount of cash.

Especially with projects on the razor's edge of being funded, like Auditorium: Duet, I'd rather the individuals reinvest those profits back into more infrastructure or keep it as liquid cash.

3) Kickstarter is a marketplace of ideas, not a charity.

I feel like people who get crowdsource funded being "obligated" or "guilted" into returning part of that cash ignore the whole point of crowdsource funding. The idea is that due to something that they, the project proposer, did- the quality of the product presented, the quality of their pitch, the quality of the reward system, etc- is what caused the proposer to be funded. It's that sort of dreamy capitalism that Republicans like to lie about still existing in companies like Microsoft etc- each proposer is graded on his or her own merits and succeeds or fails solely because of that, not because we feel bad for them and think they deserve our money because of it.

I feel like every dollar contributed to every project should be because the backer personally believes in the project or wants to see it be made, not some $10,000 moneybomb from Tim Schafer because he feels guilty about making a great pitch video that did its job.

At the end of the day, I don't care if ineXile spends 50% of its profits on investing in a How to Boot Up Your Computer kickstarter, as long as they spend that cash because they want to see the project get made, not because of a sticker or some residual sense of guilt.

4) Companies who don't opt in will be bitched out for not opting in.

Stoic is already being criticized on its page for not "Kicking it Forward". I see that trend continuing, and it'll obfuscate the point of what Kickstarter is meant to accomplish. Personally, I feel like Stoic has a great pitch video and an awesome reward system in place, and they shouldn't be detracted for, essentially, not buying into a charity system.

I've been following Kickstarter for a little over a year now, and been a backer a number of different times, for many different projects. I don't want it turned into a charity where people feel bad for doing what they site is meant to facilitate doing, and doing it well.

(1) I actually do believe that Kickstarter creates a binding contract between the backer and the kickstarter. I don't believe it creates any sort of warranties regarding quality, but I do believe that it requires at the very least a good faith effort to make the project a reality. Failing to make a good faith effort would be at the minimum a breach of contract but could potentially amount to criminal fraud. I'm a lawyer so I'm not pulling this out of my rear end for what it's worth.

(2) Kickstarter only takes 5% of the kickstarted funds. They have no claim on a project after that, and usually these projects will bring in more money upon release and so on.

(3) Your thoughts are 100% valid here, and so are people's ideas who disagree with yours. As you said, it is a market place. People are free to do what they will with their money, including taking strategies that kind of amount to charity. But you have zero obligation to even be a participant if you don't want to.

(4) I find it annoying too, the kick it forward thing. I think it's a gimmick for Fargo to raise more money, and it's going to die and go away. Why? Because this is a marketplace, and a capitalist one at that. People don't actually want to give away another 5% of their money. I'd rather they use it to fund a 5% better game.

That said, I personally choose to back plenty of projects. I'm not ready to put several hundred bucks into them out of a pledge to some stupid bullshit Brian Fargo made up.

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emoticon
May 8, 2007


Occupation posted:

3) Kickstarter is a marketplace of ideas, not a charity.

I feel like people who get crowdsource funded being "obligated" or "guilted" into returning part of that cash ignore the whole point of crowdsource funding. The idea is that due to something that they, the project proposer, did- the quality of the product presented, the quality of their pitch, the quality of the reward system, etc- is what caused the proposer to be funded. It's that sort of dreamy capitalism that Republicans like to lie about still existing in companies like Microsoft etc- each proposer is graded on his or her own merits and succeeds or fails solely because of that, not because we feel bad for them and think they deserve our money because of it.

I feel like every dollar contributed to every project should be because the backer personally believes in the project or wants to see it be made, not some $10,000 moneybomb from Tim Schafer because he feels guilty about making a great pitch video that did its job.

At the end of the day, I don't care if ineXile spends 50% of its profits on investing in a How to Boot Up Your Computer kickstarter, as long as they spend that cash because they want to see the project get made, not because of a sticker or some residual sense of guilt.

Actually Republicans must hate Kickstarter because there's no profit sharing for investors. A Kickstart fund is essentially a grant.

Toxxupation
Jan 18, 2009

what even the heck


emoticon posted:

Actually Republicans must hate Kickstarter because there's no profit sharing for investors. A Kickstart fund is essentially a grant.

This is a good point. Most Kickstarter projects still have some sort of capitalist system wherein you pay a certain amount of money for a good or service, however.

Also the whole grants being from governmental bodies thing.

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007

Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who say they have found it.


Captain Walker posted:

Our very own Chewbot is making a game, The Banner Project or something. Look it up, I'm posting mobile so linking is a lot of effort ATM. It's basically Oregon Trail King of Dragon Pass with SRPG combat. Also, Vikings

Ah, Chewbot is one of the guys working on Banner Saga? I had seen that it's mostly Bioware guys that worked on SWTOR and I forgot him mentioning a few years back that he was working on that game.

HondaCivet
Oct 16, 2005

And then it falls
And then I fall
And then I know


I'd say that Kickstarter is pretty un-"Republican" because Kickstarter is about getting around "Republicans," at least during the production phase of a good.

I feel pretty neutral about the Kick It Forward thing but people harassing Kickstarter projects for not participating is UNBELIEVABLY lovely and I hope that that bullshit dies out quick.

theblackw0lf
Apr 14, 2003

"...creating a vision of the sort of society you want to have in miniature"

Wow, the Auditorium 2 Kickstarter met its goal after all


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...2-duet/comments

Aralan
May 21, 2001


Occupation posted:

I have a lot of reasons I dislike it:

1) Most importantly, it's non-binding.

2) 5% of a product's profits is a (potentially) incredibly large amount of cash.

Especially with projects on the razor's edge of being funded, like Auditorium: Duet, I'd rather the individuals reinvest those profits back into more infrastructure or keep it as liquid cash.

3) Kickstarter is a marketplace of ideas, not a charity.

4) Companies who don't opt in will be bitched out for not opting in.

Stoic is already being criticized on its page for not "Kicking it Forward". I see that trend continuing, and it'll obfuscate the point of what Kickstarter is meant to accomplish. Personally, I feel like Stoic has a great pitch video and an awesome reward system in place, and they shouldn't be detracted for, essentially, not buying into a charity system.
1) It's non-binding in pretty much the same way kickstarter is non-binding. So far as I know, backers have no recourse if the project fails or never produces. The only lasting effect is that people are going to be way less likely to back projects by a company that fails to carry through with its promises.

2) If 5% ends up being a huge amount of cash, I really don't see how it would hurt the originator of the project to push it back into other projects. It's entirely up to the people behind the project to define "profits" anyway, I doubt anyone is going to do it in such a way that it guts their ability to do another project. Also if 5% of their profits ends up being 50 bucks, well I hate to tell you but it isn't the kick it forward idea that's ruining them.

3) It's kind of both. I mean, a lot of these games offer fabulous prizes for donation tiers, but lots of projects also have a bottom tier with no real reward if you just want to donate. Besides, it's totally voluntary to make the pledge, and it wouldn't really affect my desire to pledge if I see the logo either way.

4) People will bitch about anything. The Banner Saga is is sitting at 3x it's funding goal right now, I think they'll be alright. Besides, they've already backed other projects which, if you care about that kind of thing, should mean more than a logo and a pledge anyway.

the black husserl
Feb 25, 2005



theblackw0lf posted:

Wow, the Auditorium 2 Kickstarter met its goal after all


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...2-duet/comments

There is an acceleration effect that I think occurs because people don't want to see a kickstarter fail. It's happened with quite a few projects and I think it will next happen to the Daniel Johnston photo album thing.

nessin
Feb 7, 2010


the black husserl posted:

There is an acceleration effect that I think occurs because people don't want to see a kickstarter fail. It's happened with quite a few projects and I think it will next happen to the Daniel Johnston photo album thing.

I think a big part of it just exposure. For example, I'd never even heard of the Auditorium 2 Kickstarter until RPS covered it. I highly doubt a lot of people go wandering the Kickstarter site, especially for video games, and even then the Kickstarter search function is... Not exactly crappy, but it's hard to search for something which might or might not exist for a short period of time, and even harder to pinpoint something rather than using vague terms.

Toxxupation
Jan 18, 2009

what even the heck


Aralan posted:

1) It's non-binding in pretty much the same way kickstarter is non-binding. So far as I know, backers have no recourse if the project fails or never produces. The only lasting effect is that people are going to be way less likely to back projects by a company that fails to carry through with its promises.

The thing is, yeah, Kickstarter projects are non-binding, but at the end of the day it's really easy to tell if someone delivered on their project or not, since...a physical product will or will not exist. A tentative promise to recycle 5% of the "profits" of the kickstarted project is both extremely vague and impossible to verify.

quote:

3) It's kind of both. I mean, a lot of these games offer fabulous prizes for donation tiers, but lots of projects also have a bottom tier with no real reward if you just want to donate. Besides, it's totally voluntary to make the pledge, and it wouldn't really affect my desire to pledge if I see the logo either way.

Yeah, but at least 90% of a project's funding come from donation amounts at reward tiers- generally, the most funding and the most backers originate from the minimum tier wherein one can get the pitched product as the reward, implying that for most people, Kickstarter is simply an extended trade for a good or service.

Sure, there's a minimum floor but for all intents and purposes it's a meaningless distinction- most people kickstart a project to get a physical product in exchange for their cash.

Irt "it's totally voluntary"- this might be me doom-and-glooming, but I'd rather not see anyone's projects overshadowed by the fact that they didn't decide to affix some sticker for a half-assed charity project Brian Fargo cooked up to get more Wasteland 2 PR.

It's good that you will decide to kickstart a project on its own merits, and not be influenced by a logo, but in my opinion if even one dollar is diverted from a company that needs the funding because they're not part of the Kick it Forward campaign, that's wrong.

quote:

4) People will bitch about anything. The Banner Saga is is sitting at 3x it's funding goal right now, I think they'll be alright. Besides, they've already backed other projects which, if you care about that kind of thing, should mean more than a logo and a pledge anyway.

That's kind of a reinforcement of my point. If the Kicking it Forward pledge drive...thing is a toothless, functionally meaningless campaign that has no oversight, and, worse, is functionally no different than simply pledging to back other projects that interest you, why does it exist?

That's my complaint. To me, it feels like this entire campaign is a way for Brian Fargo to get people to spend more money on the W2 Kickstarter over any attempt to effect positive change.

I'm really glad that Chewbot and co made the specific point that they back other projects- that's what I want to hear from project proposers, not some sticker on their project page pledging to do something both impossible to define or verify.

I wouldn't have cared if Brian Fargo wrote a whole article about how, hey, since all funded projects only exist due to Kickstarter, project proposers should maybe reinvest the money back into other KS projects that interest them. He could've even thrown around nonsense numbers like "5% of profits", whatever that means, too. It's when he crossed the line into a campaign, complete with snappy logo, that ends up pressuring other projects to join and doesn't actually accomplish anything verifiable is when it started to irk me, especially since the whole campaign smells of being Wasteland 2 PR.

Toxxupation fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2012 around 15:34

LumberingTroll
Sep 9, 2007

Really it's not because
I don't like you...


So im gearing up for our Kickstarter (Kinetic Void) and I've got a question, is it really necessary to have a video featuring members of the team? Do people really want to see my goony self on their computer? or would they rather see gameplay and art assets, with voice over from the members of the team?

And to contribute to the previous conversation will we "kick it forward"? probably, I see no reason not to, I already back several project just because I like them and believe in indie development. If I can put a sticker on my kickstarter page and get more backers then why wouldn't I?

HondaCivet
Oct 16, 2005

And then it falls
And then I fall
And then I know


LumberingTroll posted:

So im gearing up for our Kickstarter (Kinetic Void) and I've got a question, is it really necessary to have a video featuring members of the team? Do people really want to see my goony self on their computer? or would they rather see gameplay and art assets, with voice over from the members of the team?

I do kind of think that it's important to show your face. You are personally asking people for money and it feels more natural and personal if people can see the actual (goony) dudes making the proposal. Don't feel like you have to make a big video with acting like Fargo. Just introducing yourselves and then cutting into gameplay footage with a voiceover would be fine I think. Honestly if you don't have any real hams on the team I'd stick to mostly voiceovers after that.

Toxxupation
Jan 18, 2009

what even the heck


I'd personally rather see art assets/gameplay, but putting a name to a face helps humanize and personalize your project. For instance, knowing that I was giving money to help out Alex over helping out Chewbot helped make the decision to back easier.

If anything, I'd look to The Banner Saga as the gold standard for how to run a Kickstarter campaign; their reward tiers are easily the coolest I've seen for a KS project, and their video, while not as funny as Double Fine's, has the benefit of showing off a shitload of art assets and voice work already devoted to the game.

Just, for the love of God, do not try to be funny unless you're actually loving funny. I got turned off of the Wasteland 2 kickstarter simply because Brian Fargo was such an unfunny shmuck who made lame jokes, complete with bad acting and worse voiceover work.

Toxxupation fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2012 around 17:03

KariOhki
Apr 22, 2008


So MonkeyPaw Games and Gaijinworks have jumped on the bandwagon and are doing a kickstarter to get a physical deluxe edition of Class of Heroes 2 made.

I find the whole thing kind of not well done. None of the donation tiers have the digital version (which is coming out no matter what) as a gift. The description text starts off talking about how JRPGs aren't coming out anymore blah blah, but then segues into how it's all about getting a physical deluxe swag pack. Plus the giant wall of text with no good description of what's in this swag pack, only one screenshot of the game, and it seems to not be a game people were clamoring to get localized in the first place (apparently the first game that Atlus brought over wasn't too good)

It just seems to miss the point somehow.

Yodzilla
Apr 29, 2005

Now who looks even dumber?

Beef Witch


Whoops my anime bikini top snapped!

Saoshyant
Oct 26, 2010

not one bit


KariOhki posted:

It just seems to miss the point somehow.

That "somehow" is an understatement. They clearly didn't think this one through.

Toxxupation
Jan 18, 2009

what even the heck


Yodzilla posted:

Whoops my anime bikini top snapped!

Holy gently caress they actually did this, this wasn't a joke you made. God loving drat it.

Yeah, that kickstarter is atrocious and I hope it dies.

Also, speaking as a JRPG fan, this line made me guffaw:

Class of Heroes 2 Kickstarter posted:

The life of a J-RPG fan is not an easy one these days.

JRPGin ain't easy

Aralan
May 21, 2001


Occupation posted:

That's my complaint. To me, it feels like this entire campaign is a way for Brian Fargo to get people to spend more money on the W2 Kickstarter over any attempt to effect positive change.

I'm really glad that Chewbot and co made the specific point that they back other projects- that's what I want to hear from project proposers, not some sticker on their project page pledging to do something both impossible to define or verify.

I wouldn't have cared if Brian Fargo wrote a whole article about how, hey, since all funded projects only exist due to Kickstarter, project proposers should maybe reinvest the money back into other KS projects that interest them. He could've even thrown around nonsense numbers like "5% of profits", whatever that means, too. It's when he crossed the line into a campaign, complete with snappy logo, that ends up pressuring other projects to join and doesn't actually accomplish anything verifiable is when it started to irk me, especially since the whole campaign smells of being Wasteland 2 PR.
Fair enough. Frankly, I had the same thought you did. The whole campaign just feels like Fargo trying to get some good PR (and money) for his kickstarter as well as getting to say "I totally started this good idea!". It would've felt way less douchy if he had waited until his kickstarter was over to announce the idea. That said, I still think it's a good idea and I hope, if nothing else, it encourages other projects to push some of their profit back into the system that helped them. I wouldn't mind if nobody actually put the dumb logo and pledge on their kickstarter though.

edit:

KariOhki posted:

I find the whole thing kind of not well done. None of the donation tiers have the digital version (which is coming out no matter what) as a gift. The description text starts off talking about how JRPGs aren't coming out anymore blah blah
...
It just seems to miss the point somehow.
Hahaha, who (besides this guy) feels like JRPG fans are getting the short end of the stick these days? Especially if the definition you're using for JRPG is essentially "Be anime as gently caress", there are tons of "JRPGs" coming out. If they're using any other definition, I really don't see how a wizardry clone counts.

edit again, I just read the Class of Heroes 2 thing some more. There are 6 lines about what the "deluxe edition" will not have in it. There is one vague line about it having "awesome" stuff in it.

Aralan fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2012 around 17:35

Philthy
Jan 28, 2003

Oh yeah.

Occupation posted:



Just, for the love of God, do not try to be funny unless you're actually loving funny. I got turned off of the Wasteland 2 kickstarter simply because Brian Fargo was such an unfunny shmuck who made lame jokes, complete with bad acting and worse voiceover work.

This actually sold me on Wasteland 2. I thought it was amusing.

Wendell
May 11, 2003



I don't understand all the claims in the Class of Heroes Kickstarter that our donations will make for an even better translation. So it'll be a half-assed lovely one if I don't pay? Are they holding a quality localization hostage? THAT'S WEIRD.

I would have considered giving them money if they were offering the digital version as a "reward", since I do want a dungeon crawl on my PSP. Oh well!

Master_Odin
Apr 15, 2010

My spear never misses its mark...

ladies


I think the fact that a tier is getting your name compiled into the code (but not viewable) is hilarious as a) who the hell will ever know if this is true and b) what are you even going to do with that kind of reward? Brag to your friends about your invisible reward?

A neat article on it on Gamasutra and well, perhaps we have another great example of how not to do Kickstarter for a company built on the remains of an awesome one.

HondaCivet
Oct 16, 2005

And then it falls
And then I fall
And then I know


What a train wreck. Why is a digital release never good enough for the uber JRPG spergs anyway? God forbid that I don't have to scour eBay for one of the 20 copies that actually got printed anymore.

emoticon
May 8, 2007


LumberingTroll posted:

So im gearing up for our Kickstarter (Kinetic Void) and I've got a question, is it really necessary to have a video featuring members of the team? Do people really want to see my goony self on their computer? or would they rather see gameplay and art assets, with voice over from the members of the team?

And to contribute to the previous conversation will we "kick it forward"? probably, I see no reason not to, I already back several project just because I like them and believe in indie development. If I can put a sticker on my kickstarter page and get more backers then why wouldn't I?

Unless your product is extremely unique and exciting, you have a famous developer to lend credence, or it has arty or indie appeal, you should make a "meet the team" video because it will help donators trust you more. This goes doubly if you don't have a lot of gameplay to show (don't make a video featuring art assets unless you have a really good concept artist; that's the equivalent of putting up untextured weapon renders)

Aralan
May 21, 2001


I also really want to know how the guys behind the Class of Heroes kickstarter justify setting their goal to half a million dollars. Double Fine asked for $400,000 to make a game. These guys are asking for more than that to "expand the scope and depth of localization". This game already exists, and they've already licensed the series, they're just translating it and modifying some things and then, I guess, throwing it all in a box with some paper dolls you can play dress up with. I really want this project to fail hard because, honestly, this just feels like they're trying to take advantage of kickstarter and insult their audiences intelligence.

I'm also hoping this project failing will help stop this idea that kickstarters are glorified preorders. I want my money to go towards creating something, not adding a little to a project that will happen either way.

Aralan fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2012 around 19:44

Sputty
Mar 20, 2005



Occupation posted:

JRPGin ain't easy
As somebody who likes CRPGs and space sims I laugh at anyone who thinks new JRPGs are hard to find

LumberingTroll
Sep 9, 2007

Really it's not because
I don't like you...


So, we have been working on our Kickstarter layout, as mentioned, figure I will share what we are planning and try to get some feedback. It's not finished and this is the first draft.

Kinetic Kickstarter

Tarquinn
Jul 3, 2007

Bear Witness

LumberingTroll posted:

So, we have been working on our Kickstarter layout, as mentioned, figure I will share what we are planning and try to get some feedback. It's not finished and this is the first draft.

Kinetic Kickstarter

The "Notch" tier is a joke that won't see the light of the day, right?

LumberingTroll
Sep 9, 2007

Really it's not because
I don't like you...


Tarquinn posted:

The "Notch" tier is a joke that won't see the light of the day, right?

It is a joke, yes.

Toxxupation
Jan 18, 2009

what even the heck


Sputty posted:

As somebody who likes CRPGs and space sims I laugh at anyone who thinks new JRPGs are hard to find

Yeah, that's the most ridiculous part of it. JRPGs are fuckin' everywhere. Good JRPGs? That's a different story, but still

Toxxupation
Jan 18, 2009

what even the heck


LumberingTroll posted:

So, we have been working on our Kickstarter layout, as mentioned, figure I will share what we are planning and try to get some feedback. It's not finished and this is the first draft.

Kinetic Kickstarter

Okay, you need to completely rewrite your intro. All of it. It reads like a bad press release crafted by a mediocre outside marketing firm you hired.

Generally speaking, your intro should be a heartstrings-pulling appeal to emotion. Talk about how much you love to make games, how you're a brand-new startup, be sure to mention about how much publishers suck/you want to escape the publisher-developer relationship-everyone loves that. Describe your game, but keep the pitch (for your game) to under a paragraph. Compare it to currently existing works, if possible ('it's like Mass Effect meets Burnout', etc); that way potential backers will know immediately whether to be hooked in or not.

Your intro is the way that you can quickly form an emotional connection with a potential backer. In that sense, your intro should be more of a focus on why you want this project to exist over what this project will provide to a backer.

By the way, I read your whole proposal and I don't really have any idea what sort of game you guys are developing. I mean, Sci Fi Space Sandbox can describe Mass Effect. Your game does not sound like Mass Effect.

The main thrust of your intro is to establish an emotional connection with the reader and quickly (quickly!) describe your game's concept, using as few words as possible.

Now, on to your Gameplay section. This is where you put all the nitty-gritty for your game. Describe in lurid, explicit detail what your game is attempting to accomplish. Try to answer as many potential questions a backer could have about specifics here, big Q and As because the proposer was too vague and subsequently had to explain poo poo are annoying. Post a lot of pictures to space out the text. You definitely need to expand on this area, especially since you've mentioned before the game is near completion, this means you should have a large amount of finished models to display.

Oh, and make sure to emphasise what platforms your game is being released upon. This is the NUMBER ONE question everyone has. Make sure to emphasise Steam release if you're intending to release on Steam. The fact that you have no mention of release platforms at all, anywhere, is a big strike against you.

Your staff description should be a lot more professional than its current state. Remove all the jokes and emphasize your industry experience (if you have a lot) or your drive to make your dream come true (if you don't). Remember, you're asking for an investment, lame jokes about guys who hang out in TeamSpeak with you doesn't help your case. For every member of your team, include a picture of them/their work. Everyone likes pictures, and it puts a human face on the proposal.

Your "why do you need Kickstarter" section is good, but the question should be quickly answered in your intro and then expanded here. In your intro you should emphasise that despite a near-completed state on your game, issues with licensing the languages you're using to develop the game are prohibitively high (just spitballing, here). People should get a clear sense of why you need the money from your intro, not 3/4 of the way down the page. Also, the last sentence in your first paragraph of your "why do you need Kickstarter" thing is the runniest run-on sentence to ever exist.

Your rewards are fine, if unremarkable. However, your 100 dollar tier reward is kind of...lovely, you might want to improve it. Also, I dunno if you have a set figure of money you want to raise but you have insanely low limits on your mid-tier rewards. Especially the one hundred dollar one- it's a CD, why can't you just make it a limit of 100? Or, heck, even a thousand?

But yeah, those are my criticisms

Ed- Also, do not say "Tier Rewards 1, 2, and 3 in addition to blah blah blah". Say "All previous rewards in addition to blah blah blah". It reads better and makes higher tier rewards sound more valuable.

Toxxupation fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2012 around 21:18

Edison Carter
Mar 26, 2010


Aralan posted:

I also really want to know how the guys behind the Class of Heroes kickstarter justify setting their goal to half a million dollars. Double Fine asked for $400,000 to make a game. These guys are asking for more than that to "expand the scope and depth of localization". This game already exists, and they've already licensed the series, they're just translating it and modifying some things and then, I guess, throwing it all in a box with some paper dolls you can play dress up with. I really want this project to fail hard because, honestly, this just feels like they're trying to take advantage of kickstarter and insult their audiences intelligence.

I'm also hoping this project failing will help stop this idea that kickstarters are glorified preorders. I want my money to go towards creating something, not adding a little to a project that will happen either way.

The guy behind the kickstarter is Victor Ireland, the guy who once ran Working Designs. He's batshit crazy, and I would say quite a few aspects of this come from the fact that somewhere in that brain of his, he think's he's up there with the likes of Tim Schafer.

The thing that gets me about the reward tiers is a lot of the stuff in the higher up, more expensive tiers are the things that WD used to put in their big box SEs.

The whole thing just seems misguided and bizarre. The sequel to a game that didn't do very well, on a system that's dead, on a format that won't play on the newest version of the hardware. OH! But the digital version that isn't part of this at all (but you're still kicking in cash to make the translation better apparently) will come out no matter what (PSP and PS3 versions supposedly). Oh, and they want 500,000. Also, it's god damned Victor Ireland, so the game as a whole probably won't be released for a good couple years anyway. It's just loving crazy and misguided. Then again, he drove his last company into the ground trying to talk Sony into okaying his port of a really bad sequel to a good series.

I love Kickstarter, but man there are some people who thought the Double Fine bump was a much bigger thing than it is.

zanmatto
Jul 17, 2009


Some close friends of mine actually set up a Kickstarter for a game they are producing, Metacell II. Here is the link: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...gate?ref=search

They knocked their promo video out of the park, but they have had issues with getting people to notice it, sadly.

Fayk
Aug 2, 2006

Sorry, my brain doesn't work so good...

LumberingTroll posted:

So, we have been working on our Kickstarter layout, as mentioned, figure I will share what we are planning and try to get some feedback. It's not finished and this is the first draft.

Kinetic Kickstarter

Are you guys sure you can handle (rather, want to) having no limit on the number of crew members that you'll have to populate with backers? (Unless I've misunderstood -- tier 4). Probably not an issue for a sandboxy game with names generated randomly, but thought I'd ask since other game projects on kickstarter have limited that kind of contribution sometimes.

People love seeing their names in credits, etc.

LumberingTroll
Sep 9, 2007

Really it's not because
I don't like you...


Occupation posted:

Okay, you need to completely rewrite your intro. All of it. It reads like a bad press release crafted by a mediocre outside marketing firm you hired.

Generally speaking, your intro should be a heartstrings-pulling appeal to emotion. Talk about how much you love to make games, how you're a brand-new startup, be sure to mention about how much publishers suck/you want to escape the publisher-developer relationship-everyone loves that. Describe your game, but keep the pitch (for your game) to under a paragraph. Compare it to currently existing works, if possible ('it's like Mass Effect meets Burnout', etc); that way potential backers will know immediately whether to be hooked in or not.

Your intro is the way that you can quickly form an emotional connection with a potential backer. In that sense, your intro should be more of a focus on why you want this project to exist over what this project will provide to a backer.

By the way, I read your whole proposal and I don't really have any idea what sort of game you guys are developing. I mean, Sci Fi Space Sandbox can describe Mass Effect. Your game does not sound like Mass Effect.

The main thrust of your intro is to establish an emotional connection with the reader and quickly (quickly!) describe your game's concept, using as few words as possible.

Now, on to your Gameplay section. This is where you put all the nitty-gritty for your game. Describe in lurid, explicit detail what your game is attempting to accomplish. Try to answer as many potential questions a backer could have about specifics here, big Q and As because the proposer was too vague and subsequently had to explain poo poo are annoying. Post a lot of pictures to space out the text. You definitely need to expand on this area, especially since you've mentioned before the game is near completion, this means you should have a large amount of finished models to display.

Oh, and make sure to emphasise what platforms your game is being released upon. This is the NUMBER ONE question everyone has. Make sure to emphasise Steam release if you're intending to release on Steam. The fact that you have no mention of release platforms at all, anywhere, is a big strike against you.

Your staff description should be a lot more professional than its current state. Remove all the jokes and emphasize your industry experience (if you have a lot) or your drive to make your dream come true (if you don't). Remember, you're asking for an investment, lame jokes about guys who hang out in TeamSpeak with you doesn't help your case. For every member of your team, include a picture of them/their work. Everyone likes pictures, and it puts a human face on the proposal.

Your "why do you need Kickstarter" section is good, but the question should be quickly answered in your intro and then expanded here. In your intro you should emphasise that despite a near-completed state on your game, issues with licensing the languages you're using to develop the game are prohibitively high (just spitballing, here). People should get a clear sense of why you need the money from your intro, not 3/4 of the way down the page. Also, the last sentence in your first paragraph of your "why do you need Kickstarter" thing is the runniest run-on sentence to ever exist.

Your rewards are fine, if unremarkable. However, your 100 dollar tier reward is kind of...lovely, you might want to improve it. Also, I dunno if you have a set figure of money you want to raise but you have insanely low limits on your mid-tier rewards. Especially the one hundred dollar one- it's a CD, why can't you just make it a limit of 100? Or, heck, even a thousand?

But yeah, those are my criticisms

I agree with some of what you say but a some I dont, I appreciate the feed back though.

We never said we are near completion, we are not. I also don't see the need to "appeal to emotions" and create some kind of sob story. We are not looking for charity, its understood by pretty much everyone that Kickstarter is used for funding projects without other means of financing, publishers, loans etc. I don't see the need to pointlessly state this, I do think I will mention my support for the independent game development scene however, but a lot of what you said just simply doesn't correlate to what other successful kickstarters have done. examples are FTL, The Banner Saga, and Wasteland 2. Sure the latter two have well known industry veterans, however that is the exception not the rule, Kickstarter was not created for well established professionals to get funding.

The team jokes were just stuck in while we were working together, it wasn't meant to make it into the final.

We do know that the game description needs to be improved, and we are working on this.

Describing our game is not the easiest thing to do, the closest I can relate it to would be concepts of X Universe with the gameplay of the space parts of Star Trek Online. I also really don't want to name drop other games to describe our project.

Platform is easy enough, and somewhat implied though yes it needs to be clearly stated, It's Unity Pro so it will Mac and PC, the game play would not lend itself to mobile gaming at all.

also what is not shown is our video (its not done yet) it will be an opening with me, introducing myself, a brief explanation of the game, then the it will show game footage, with voice-over for further explanation. and an ending with a thank you from me.

about the $100 tier, yes its a CD and everything before it, but we are not a record studio, we do not have the logistics to produce and ship a thousand CDs, not to mention the time it would take away from development. Maybe something extra could be added to the $100 tier.

again I appreciate your feedback, and some of it has given us new ideas, but I think some of your views are slightly skewed in a "this is how marketing works" kind of way that just doesn't make sense.


Fayk posted:

Are you guys sure you can handle (rather, want to) having no limit on the number of crew members that you'll have to populate with backers? (Unless I've misunderstood -- tier 4). Probably not an issue for a sandboxy game with names generated randomly, but thought I'd ask since other game projects on kickstarter have limited that kind of contribution sometimes.

People love seeing their names in credits, etc.

Its just a matter of adding someones name into a database that the game can pull from to name crew members, pretty trivial actually.


edit: something else we are talking about doing is adding a web-based version of the ship builder that will allow anyone to build ships and launch into a test flight area. and give people a feel for the game, before they decide to back the project.

LumberingTroll fucked around with this message at Mar 28, 2012 around 21:27

Toxxupation
Jan 18, 2009

what even the heck


^^^ fair enough. I'm not saying you should be a sob story, but I am saying people, generally speaking, like to back projects they have a personal connection to. Perhaps "appeal to emotion" was a poor choice of wording, and I apologize for that; what I meant more was that you should make a backer as personally excited for investing in the project as you are making it.

Also, The Banner Saga spent about 50% of its time in its pitch video talking about how much they wanted to make a game without publisher influence and concessions to said publisher. Brian Fargo spent...all of his time in his whiny, unfunny pitch video bitching about how much publishers suck and how they would "destroy his vision" for W2.

Finally, re: the CD thing, I have no idea what your current audio setup is. I'm just speaking from experience with Kickstarter - one hundred dollars is about the limit to what your average, non Mr. Moneybags backer will spend on a project they really really like. Limiting it to 10, and therefore only a thousand bucks max, is shooting yourself in the foot. If you really cannot for whatever reason produce more than 10 CDs, that's fine, but you should really add another one hundred dollar tier reward in that case. (T-shirt, for instance.)

I'm just saying because you have a really cool fifty dollar reward item, especially an item as bulky and awkward to ship like a poster, it's a bit...odd that you'd move to a CD as the "next step". Especially one in as limited a quality.

zanmatto posted:

Some close friends of mine actually set up a Kickstarter for a game they are producing, Metacell II. Here is the link: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...gate?ref=search

They knocked their promo video out of the park, but they have had issues with getting people to notice it, sadly.

Okay seriously that promo video is loving amazing. Everyone everywhere should check out this video, it's the best thing I've seen in a long time.

LumberingTroll
Sep 9, 2007

Really it's not because
I don't like you...


Occupation posted:

Finally, re: the CD thing, I have no idea what your current audio setup is. I'm just speaking from experience with Kickstarter - one hundred dollars is about the limit to what your average, non Mr. Moneybags backer will spend on a project they really really like. Limiting it to 10, and therefore only a thousand bucks max, is shooting yourself in the foot. If you really cannot for whatever reason produce more than 10 CDs, that's fine, but you should really add another one hundred dollar tier reward in that case. (T-shirt, for instance.)

I'm just saying because you have a really cool fifty dollar reward item, especially an item as bulky and awkward to ship like a poster, it's a bit...odd that you'd move to a CD as the "next step". Especially one in as limited a quality.


You make a good point about the poster and CD, I will talk to Artem and see what he thinks. He is our composer after all, I think we may swap 4 and 5 around. making the poster, credits, and crew name the $100 tier, and CD the $50 tier.

Also check out Artems stuff he is pretty drat talented.
http://artembank.bandcamp.com/

and as mentioned before but may have been missed

something else we are talking about doing is adding a web-based version of the ship builder that will allow anyone to build ships and launch into a test flight area. and give people a feel for the game, before they decide to back the project

Toxxupation
Jan 18, 2009

what even the heck


You might want to make it, instead of a CD, a digital download then. And sign the poster for your 100 dollar reward.

This helps too, because a signed poster is way easier to display then a signed CD

Aralan
May 21, 2001


Occupation posted:

Okay seriously that promo video is loving amazing. Everyone everywhere should check out this video, it's the best thing I've seen in a long time.
Just pledged $10 on the strength of the Tom Goes to the Mayor homage.

Dissapointed Owl
Jan 30, 2008

You wrote me a letter,
and this is how it went:


Pledged 25$ because I dig the reward and want to help out.

Also because I honestly don't think it'll make it.

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Sigma-X
Jun 17, 2005

"thats pretty much it, we all got high, it was sweet you should of been there"
"god damnt knuckles, your plan didn't do anything"


zanmatto posted:

Some close friends of mine actually set up a Kickstarter for a game they are producing, Metacell II. Here is the link: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...gate?ref=search

They knocked their promo video out of the park, but they have had issues with getting people to notice it, sadly.

This video is loving amazing

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