Kickstarter Gaming - for $10.000,00 you get a "don't steal my money" emoji

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Kickstarter Gaming - for $10.000,00 you get a "don't steal my money" emoji

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Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Occupation posted:

It's amazing to me that literally everything Ireland says re: Class of Heroes 2 is either a lie, a statement which makes one of his earlier statements a lie retroactively, or a threat.

There's a reason Working Designs went out of business back in the day, and it wasn't Vic Ireland's wonderful business talents.

# ¿ Apr 13, 2012 07:29

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 14:23

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

randombattle posted:

Why would you donate to this kickstarter in the hopes that somewhere down the line they do a game you actually want?

Especially since even if the kickstarter did get funded, it would mean CoH3 would be brought over by Vic Ireland too. :v:

I admit I don't have quite the hate for him some people do, since most of the crappy jRPGs he brought over could have stood a good relocalization anyway, but his lack of business sense is staggeringly amazing. Not only making arbitrary insane localization changes in an era when that was against the grain of fandom, but things like making giant collectors-edition-esque packages for lovely games nobody bought or really needed. Sure, some things got brought over by WD that probably wouldn't have, but the market's changed since 1997 and it's obvious he hasn't.

Lobst posted:

or even this:

The worst thing is the silhouette mirage "tweaks" turned a short, quirky shooter-platformer thing into a tedious dull grind. It's blatantly obvious nobody playtested it. Well, besides Vic Ireland himself maybe.

# ¿ Apr 14, 2012 09:57

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

The trouble with trying to get percentage of digital sales versus retail sales is that the majority of download stores (like Steam) don't publish their numbers, while physical retailers do. Pretty much everything that isn't a direct statement from a publisher about sales figures is meaningless conjecture.

While I don't know enough about other regions to say though, it's not hard to see just how poor PC retail is these days (gamestop barely bothers since there's no resale potential, and in large retailers you're lucky if you find Blizzard games, some Sims, and a handful of AAA releases). Most vaguely reliable estimates I've seen have put PC gaming as a minority of the market, but larger than any individual console share; about $18 billion out of a $65bn market in 2012 (it's hard to find a consistent source on total console share, and there's things like phone gaming that skews it), and continues to grow despite a decline in console hardware sales. And how much of that is download... well, Steam alone is estimated at about three billion, and best source I could find quickly was around 48% of PC game sales being downloads... in 2010. I imagine it hasn't dropped any since. So it's not exactly an insignificant percentage here, and a literal billion-dollar industry on its own.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2012 14:50

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Shalinor posted:

... but a subscription model? On a Kickstarted MMO, so probably already doomed to a smaller user base that's more likely to be eaten away by other options? And you just know they'll go F2P as the numbers slip, thereby screwing the people that paid?

I dunno. As long as they're honest about 30-50k subscribers it'd probably be fine; that's not that hard a number to reach, and most of the massive flops have been the ones budgeting for and expecting million+ WoW-level subscriptions.

It's still a dumb decision in the current MMO market though, so.

# ¿ Feb 11, 2013 03:43

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Off Base Strategy Guides Vol 1: Mercenary Kings Master Codex looks pretty interesting.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obp/off-base-strategy-guides-vol-1-mercenary-kings-mas

"Strategy guide for an indie game" is sort of not something in high demand so I have no idea if it'd actually succeed, but considering it's the folks who did the amazing Disgaea 1+3/Persona 4 guides it'll probably turn out amazing if it's funded.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2013 19:53

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Macaluso posted:

Man that is how you do a trailer

A friend of mine edited the trailer, I'll tell them you said that.

# ¿ Sep 5, 2013 06:05

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Yeah, but it doesn't look like it'll get many stretch goals. Ah well.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2013 02:40

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Are you going to argue with a doctor? :colbert:

# ¿ Mar 9, 2014 03:01

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

kuroiXiru posted:

By the way, I hate it when people do this.

Just reveal who it is, dammit. You'll get more pledges that way.

This is almost certainly a contractual thing; they can't announce who's working for them until the business arrangement is otherwise guaranteed, otherwise all sorts of problems result. If they could advertise from day one, they'd definitely be doing so.

# ¿ Apr 23, 2014 09:30

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Veotax posted:

Creating and shipping physical merch gets expensive fast (...)

Yeah, it's easy to forget that unlike with some things, shipping costs tend to rise dramatically with volume. Not just due to extra costs involved with the shipping itself, but also requiring extra staff to handle the packaging, the database management to know who gets what and when, and so on. It was a huuuge thing with early unexpectedly successful kickstarters to get hosed over by this, since someone prepared to handle 100 units likely quite swamped at 1000, let alone 10,000.

# ¿ Jul 25, 2014 11:55

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

In case there was any doubt about the "is literally a sociopathic scammer with no remorse" part, he helpfully clears that up. God bless you kickstarter. :allears:

# ¿ Jul 27, 2014 03:15

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Lets! Get! Weird! posted:

I'm still confused how Chris Roberts got 49 million dollars.

Sunk cost fallacy and buyer's remorse working in a miraculous tandem.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2014 02:37

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Zaphod42 posted:

I don't know why people even listen to Molyneux anymore. Or how he finds work.

Inertia, mostly.

# ¿ Dec 4, 2014 07:28

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Genocyber posted:

It looks worse than Megaman Powered Up graphically and also looks really bland.

Yeah this is the weird thing. If it was just MMPU quality then it'd be good, but as it is it looks worse than a goddamn PSP game. I mean it's alright enough for what it's doing, but definitely not "four million dollars and two-odd years" good even by indie standards.

Also the stage design is horrible. That's really going to be the crux of it, and a big part of why Shovel Knight did so well.

# ¿ May 2, 2015 04:25

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Really, it's the level design that stands out. It's all just corridors with the occasional ledge or pit, it's straightforward and boring. Maybe it'd be a bit better received if Shovel Knight hadn't come out already, but look at the levels in that. Lots of stage specific gimmicks, lots of variation from room to room, careful and creative enemy placement, and so on. This is the sort of thing that makes or breaks a Megaman-style game due to how the levels and enemy placements potentially interact with the powers, getting it done right really a lot harder than it looks, and what we've seen of MN9 just... it just isn't good.

I mean the graphics and music being mobile-level is kind of poo poo too, but there's a few months out and still some room for polish there. But making the game actually interesting would require deeper thought and redoing a fair portion of the stages and that seems... unlikely.

# ¿ May 2, 2015 09:39

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Mercury_Storm posted:

Bitcoin has such a terrible reputation at this point that anyone or anything even remotely associated has a black mark on it. I honestly wouldn't touch the game because of the off chance the bitcoin true hodler on the team put a stealth mining app in it.

# ¿ May 20, 2015 05:18

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Zereth posted:

This also makes the claims of being a "western twist on Disgaea" look ridiculous too since that tended to have maps with a lot of varied features on them. Heights, terrain effects, terrain effects you could manipulate, etc.

Yeah, seriously. What is it with "tactical RPGs" that had completely flat , open, and effectively interchangeable maps? :geno:

Banner Saga and Chroma Squad had the same problem, and it just seems like such a blatant oversight.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 01:11

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

barjed posted:

Perhaps you're right. The idea here was to convey a message in a single bullet-point of what to expect, in general, from the game. Perhaps we should've compared it to TBS instead but I think there also other inspirations from Disgaea in Regalia, but I understand those are secondary.

Anyway, I still believe that interesting tactical decisions can be achieved through different means too. While we lack said elevation, we do have various status effects a'la FFT, shielding mechanic, unit spawning (summons), item usage, object spawning (traversable and impassable walls, traps, buffing sources) and moving units around the battlefield (push, pull, teleport). Positioning is also important and mage characters in particular generate resource needed for skills from correct positioning on the battlefield (think leyline from Shadowrun Returns but more important). You can't simply hang out in the corner and shoot fireballs out of your rear end. This is topped off with a complete lack of healing and monster do hit punishingly hard so you can be dead fast and there is no rezzing unless you trot all the way back through the world map to your town.

We will try to address the blank grid complaint with actual examples tomorrow, when the updates hits.

Really, the main thing to keep in mind with a tactics RPG is that, if you're having a grid and positioning as a central mechanic, it needs to mean something. There should be a variety of area effects in different configurations (lines, circles, cones, etc.) that make the arrangements of enemies matter. You need to have ways to force or prevent movement to corral enemies (or let the enemies split up or trap the player characters if they get caught up). There should be effects that require certain arrangements of allies in order to work, or have player characters be able to influence other characters' movement (with the classic silly example being Disgaea's towers or team attacks). Unless you're literally going for a chess-style game you want to have varied maps with impassable spaces and choke points, walls or pillars that block line of sight, zones you don't want to move through (rough terrain, patches of fire, etc.) and all that sort of environmental stuff. FFT/Disgaea-style elevation changes aren't really required, but there should be things that make each map feel as unique as possible; in an ideal situation you could have the exact same number and types of opponents on each side but have things play out completely different because of choke points, starting positions, and other map-specific variations.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 09:42

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

EightDeer posted:

Regalia has a new update that makes the battle system look better.

You win this round, barjed. :argh:

# ¿ Jun 5, 2015 03:04

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Coldrice posted:

Just be honest it's because I didn't put any busty anime robots in there isn't it.

There's still time. :colbert:

# ¿ Jun 30, 2015 23:22

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Nemo2342 posted:

In addition to the add-ons, the higher tiers themselves are laid out really weirdly. I think this is the first time I've seen a Kickstarter set up so that the top tiers don't include all of the lower tiers as well.

I've seen it a few times in traditional games kickstarters, but mostly for stuff like miniatures where the tiers are basically for separate products or specific armies or whatever.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2015 10:32

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Nemo2342 posted:

Well, I can understand why say the "Executive Producer" tier doesn't include the "Original Box Artwork" tier, since there's only one piece of artwork, but why doesn't it include your name in the game, your picture in the game, or a npc made out of your image?

Yeah, that's what I mean. It can kind of make since for a kickstarter that's basically a glorified pre-order system for physical products, but when it's for videos games or rewards that don't really have limited supply or cost it's really sort of weird.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2015 01:05

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Blockhouse posted:

<MN9 delay>

Well... honestly it's probably for the best the game's been delayed. it's pretty obvious it's gotten a bad reception so far, but they have a working engine and mostly alright art assets, and another six months gives time to polish it up, improve the level design, make the graphics not look like a PSP game, and what have you.

I mean I don't have any hope it'll turn out good, but it's a wise decision on their end anyway.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2015 12:21

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

It's easy to forget that shovel knight is really loving good and polished to a mirror shine on like a tenth of the later retro-KS budgets because the developers were incredibly competent and actually knew their limits and didn't try to make some big multimedia bullshit thing beyond them.

# ¿ Aug 8, 2015 07:40

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Lord Lambeth posted:

Has anyone done this outside of Inafune/Comcept?

ImpAtom posted:

There's a pretty big difference in the way they were handled. MN9 was set up as that from the very start and basically created as an attempt to transfer fan goodwill from an existing franchise to a new one. It was a lot more cynical than Shovel Knight in a lot of ways. I think that, more than anything, is why the backlash is showing up so heavily. (Though having an actual completed project would probably help.) MN9 never really managed to stand on its own two feet even to this point.

Comcept was pretty much exactly who I was referring to yeah and the MN9 and Red Ash projects are such striking examples of how not to run campaigns. I mean it's been said fifty times in the thread, but having Red Ash and a Red Ash anime kickstarter running simultaneously while not even being able to deliver on the original game yet just seems skeevy as hell. Yeah I know there's nothing wrong with running a second kickstarter before you finish the first (I know how game production works), but the specific nature of it just seems weirdly pandering, and even the announcement of a formal official publisher/backer seemed to make it feel even worse, like the whole thing was just a way to extract money from an increasingly unwilling fanbase.

It's not the only example, stuff like the Pathfinder MMO has been almost as badly handled and promised way more than they could actually deliver, but it will probably be a while before we see another one as blatant.

# ¿ Aug 8, 2015 10:11

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I find Red Ash problematic just because Legends was never a great game to begin with. It had some interesting boss fights, but ultimately if you want to make a good game, it's going to have to be significantly different from Legends' clunky controls, boring levels, and pedestrian enemy design.

It's important to remember that Megaman Legends was a competent 3D adventure game with an aesthetic that actually worked well with the lovely hardware available, had almost full voice acting in an era where that was unheard of, and had working z-targeting a year before Ocarina of Time was released and put it in the public consciousness. It's imperfect and has a lot of rough edges but a lot of that was just due to nobody really understanding how to best do 3D adventure stuff yet, so it's not hard to see why it's still well-regarded by people who played it. Even if it is kind of like FF7 where it's held up poorly as the medium has advanced and the game design in it has evolved over the years though, yes.

PaletteSwappedNinja posted:

Megaman Legends is a series with niche appeal but they wouldn't have had any trouble funding the game if their campaign wasn't run so poorly. You can't really narrow it down to people dogpiling on Inafune or the devs overestimating the demand for a new Legends game - the campaign was inexcusably awful and a complete embarrassment to all involved and at no point did seem like they knew what people expected from them or even what they were pitching.

Yeah, there was just little to nothing about it that was done well and if any of a dozen different things were done better it could have been a success (showing real gameplay, not splitting the interest by having an anime kickstarter simultaneously and putting the cart before the horse, admitting there was a publisher for it at the start, releasing it after MN9 so it didn't seem like a desperate cash grab for a floundering studio, having MN9 be actually good so their followup projects would carry some hype, etc.) and they... didn't. So it wasn't.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2015 07:48

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Alien Rope Burn posted:

History has been kinder to it than its initial reception, which was pretty harsh at the time (subpar PC and N64 ports didn't help). It's gotten something of a cult following since then, but I think that's more for the memorable characters, bosses, and cutscenes (and boy, was it heavy on cutscenes) than the relatively dull gameplay. It's innovative in some respects, but it's hardly a standout game for 1998.

I always remember the PSX version being well received, just a really poor seller (probably due to the lovely, lovely US cover art). And yeah the lackluster ports to other consoles probably didn't help though no.

Lord Lambeth posted:

Japanese devs in particular are pretty weird about kickstarter. Probably because the indie scene is pretty small.

It's important to keep in mind that the PC gaming market in Japan is really, really small and mostly limited to the super hardcore types. It never really caught off there in the way it did in the west for various reasons and a lot of larger companies still don't really understand it. Ironically it's the indie ones who clued in relatively early on since even a modestly successful steam release day makes them more than they'd see in years of Japanese sales, it's part of why there's a big glut of japanese RPGs and visual novels and such now.

Granted the Japanese console gaming industry is slowly imploding as all the major publishers there continue their inexorable shift to mobile games, but that's another matter.

Trapezium Dave posted:

I backed quite a few kickstarters from developers who I thought were done a number by publishers but the unspoken understanding was that this was their one-time opportunity to prove they can make it outside the system. It's frustrating that many big name developers on Kickstarter don't seem to grasp that.

In fairness I'm sure they're acutely well aware it's a one-time chance. It's just their teams, for whatever reason (poor planning, poor management, etc) just aren't able to follow through.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2015 09:10

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

al-azad posted:

I don't really get it either. It looks like Mega Man Powered up which I enjoyed.

MMPU was amazing and underrated, but it's almost a decade old and was released on the PSP. It's not exactly whining to think that a modern HD game should have slightly higher standards than that.

With that said I personally thing the graphics are alright? Not the best but it fits the game well. The bigger issues are how bland and boring the gameplay looks in what's been shown so far. The levels are horrible.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2015 01:20

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

monster on a stick posted:

But that gives the game that wonderful "Blade Kitten" vibe.

MN9 somehow has less charm than the PSP megaman remakes, what the hell. And don't forget, this was the concept art plastered on their kickstarter page.

Asimo fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Sep 16, 2015

# ¿ Sep 16, 2015 16:28

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Blockhouse posted:

I think it'd be better if there was any indication MN9 wasn't just...that. For the whole game.

Yeah if that was just the easy baby tutorial intro it wouldn't be a big deal. But they've show bits from later levels and the stages don't look any more interesting or exciting...

Speaking of not-poo poo Megaman-esque Kickstarters, as a reminder Shovel Knight's plague knight free DLC thing is due out tomorrow. :toot:

# ¿ Sep 16, 2015 19:00

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Niton posted:

The Zeboyd guys have a strong track record, though - the worst part about any of their previous games is that they're inextricably tied with the Penny Arcade mythos, making their stories worse.

Objectively speaking their RPGs are... pretty okay, mechanically? But the writing has always been weird and wonky and just kind of bad, even in their non-Penny Arcade stuff. I can't even really explain it succinctly which doesn't help my case, I know, but there's no real weight or consistent tone to it. It's pretty much the only thing that really made me hesitate with their kickstarter.

# ¿ Sep 22, 2015 18:56

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Unlucky7 posted:

So, Indivisible is at $137K after a day or so. Still really far off from the $1.5 million, but I am trying to remain hopeful as the prototype is real good and there is still 39 days or so to reach the goal.

I guess I am just spooked because I just noticed on the page they said that the deal with 505 Games is that if $1.5 million is reached, they will chip in an extra $2 million. Otherwise, the game is not happening, or so they say.

It's really kind of ill timed, in a way. It's ending only a few days after Fallout 4 hits and I suspect a lot of people already have money budgeted for that instead. :shepface:

More seriously, it's got the double strikes of asking for a fairly huge budget and being on indiegogo rather than kickstarter proper. I respect them for being honest about how much it will cost and not intentionally undercutting like a lot of projects do - they were pretty good about this with their Skullgirls project - but it's still a bit of a hurdle. I suspect they'll make it, but I doubt there will be a lot of stretch goals.

# ¿ Oct 7, 2015 05:53

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

I think a big part at the time was that IGG handled international backers way better than Kickstarter and Skullgirls had a noticeable percentage of Japanese and European supporters.

# ¿ Oct 12, 2015 19:09

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

If Indivisible was on Kickstarter proper it'd probably be funded by now. They did already with Skullgirls, but that was a goal a tenth the size and indiegogo has a well-deserved reputation for scammy niche projects.

Well, that and if they did what every other major kickstarter does and tell blatant lies about what they need for funding, it looks way better to have a 3-500k goal and pass it and get people backing on the "sure thing" once it's passed then the honest 1.5m goal that you'll never reach because people stare at that million+ you're missing and think it's doomed even if there's no risk to backing a failed (fixed-funding) project anyway.

Crowdfunding it a lovely industry, but the marketing and psychology of it are a huge part and Lab Zero's been botching it pretty badly this time.

# ¿ Oct 28, 2015 05:11

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Yeah the timing of it is really horrible too. It's finishing up literally around the time Fallout 4 comes out, and in the middle of the end-of-year game release rush. If it was done a few months ago there would have been way less hurdles in the way, but as it is I suspect a lot of potential backers just aren't willing to put much/any money down.

# ¿ Oct 28, 2015 05:14

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

InShaneee posted:

They're asking for almost double what the highest funded video game project on Indiegogo has ever received. That's the problem right there.

And importantly, doing it on indiegogo means you don't get the free cross-promotion from devs who've done similar projects (or just like you). Which doesn't sound like a big deal, but keep in mind that it's advertising directed towards people who've already given to projects and have their account credentials and all set up and depending on who linked it you suddenly have thousands or tens of thousands of free views and probably even more word of mouth. While there's basically nobody on indiegogo who can do that... the largest successful video game project there was, what, their own? Not much you can do there.

I admit I know some of the developers though old internet interactions and whatever your opinions on anime boobs or SJWs or whatever the gently caress they're really nice folks who are really good at their jobs and it's depressing to see things floundering. :sigh:

# ¿ Oct 28, 2015 08:54

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

God, I forgot about that stupid Square-Enix Collective thing.

That's okay, everyone else did too.

# ¿ Oct 29, 2015 11:40

Asimo: Sep 23, 2007

Lord Lambeth posted:

I have to wonder why the funding has been so limp, the skullgirls indiegogo went so well.

Keep in mind that the Skullgirls DLC was to that point (and I think after too?) the most successful video game project on indiegogo by a significant margin that outsold all expectations... and it still made only a little bit over half of what they need for this one.

Indiegogo just isn't the right venue for for a million+ dollar game project.

Trapezium Dave posted:

having the game at a relatively high $30 price point

This too. It's probably a fair price, but it's noticeable above the "impulse bid" $10-25 most "get the game" tiers go for. They have a $15 soundtrack tier but even that's too much for what you get and it hasn't gotten much response (like barely over 100 backers).

# ¿ Nov 2, 2015 13:24