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AceClown
Sep 11, 2005

You could bake in some kind of fatigue mechanic, meaning as you level up and get stronger you can fly for longer and longer times?

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Just Burgs
Jan 15, 2011

Gravy Boat 2k

Rosalind posted:

The problem with flight is that it removes a lot of the danger of exploring:


Does it, though? It offers an alternate solution, but not always the best one. Like, alright, a character in flight can cross a battlefield of foes, but rarely without being observed. They can get away from a sticky situation, leaving their foes to survive, plotting their next ambush and probably remembering to hire a few good archers next time.

Sure, if they're a common race, I'm sure rich or powerful figures will be making sure to set up their secret vaults and fortresses with "no-fly zones", but make sure that it doesn't become prevalent to the point of dickishness. After all, what's the point of a character with a cool shtick and can't use it?

A few levels back, the campaign I run was exploring an ancient tomb, and came across an absurdly long spike-pit hallway. The Sorcerer, who had a flight spell, took advantage of that, and made it across. The fighter, a frog-human in disguise, used her mighty leaps to traverse the pit. The monk used his natural dexterity and balance to leap from wall to wall and avoided the spikes, and the ranger did some clever trick involving using some logs she cut to make mad roller-skates.

I don't really feel that the Sorcerer using his flight trivialized the challenge in any way. At the end of the day, flight is just another tool that's fun to use.

01011001
Dec 26, 2012

It's a question of what kind of flight you're talking about and how limited it was. If you need a running jump to take off then you have to flap a bunch to stay aloft and you have to work at fancy poo poo in midair other than point A -> point B and it's way conspicuous then it's way less of an issue than something where you're levitating to any height and distance with perfect control.

AceClown
Sep 11, 2005

Another way to balance it would be to give a penalty, not to get all super sperg but effective flight would mean pneumatized (hollow) bones and they wouldn't be all that effective against crushing weapons...

Chevy Slyme
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.

GaistHeidegger posted:

s it something that works best if it starts off limited and then gets expanded on through feats? Is that even a big deal? Does that then imply that members of the race who aren't heroic characters aren't actually very good at flying?

Being able to fly around and being able to fly around and do something else at the same time, (like, cast a spell, or swing a weapon), or even just fly around with the sort of precision called for in a combat situation is definitely not the same. If it's say a full action to take off or land, and while in the air, you get say, a tripled move action but no standard action, flight is suddenly something that anyone of the race can do, but is useless as a combat skill without substantial specialized training. (Read: Feats.)

MadScientistWorking
Jun 23, 2010

"I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

Rosalind posted:

I have to cross a war-torn battlefield? Time to fly.
The enemy has me surrounded? Away I go.
I'd argue that two of these would probably get you peppered with arrows faster than the alternative and the first two are really boring obstacles as it stands.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



The problem with flight is that now the DM has to design every single encounter around your special snowflake typing /NOCLIP.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream

moths posted:

The problem with flight is that now the DM has to design every single encounter around your special snowflake typing /NOCLIP.

Oh no, a DM basing encounter design what the players in his party are capable of? What dark horrors this has unleashed.

djw175
Apr 23, 2012

by zen death robot
Our DM bases encounters around our paladin engaging the biggest thing in the room and deathmatching it. Basing encounters on your PCs is a normal thing.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



ZenMasterBullshit posted:

Oh no, a DM basing encounter design what the players in his party are capable of? What dark horrors this has unleashed.

It literally adds an extra dimension to encounter design. This isn't lockpicking.

You're shutting down every challenge that involves getting from A to B - unless the DM specifically accommodates (and plans a foil for) one specific player because they have one special specific power.

PublicOpinion
Oct 21, 2010

Her style is new but the face is the same as it was so long ago...
The High Elf teleport already exists, so if flight was constrained to roughly the same utility it wouldn't change my DMing much.

Jackard
Oct 28, 2007

We Have A Bow And We Wish To Use It

Rosalind posted:

The problem with flight is that it removes a lot of the danger of exploring:

There are dangerous woods filled with deadly monsters? I fly over them.
There's a river that's too fast to cross? I fly over it.
I have to cross a war-torn battlefield? Time to fly.
The enemy has me surrounded? Away I go.
But can your party?

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



And at that point it's high/long jumping. Flying is a totally different deal, no?

PublicOpinion
Oct 21, 2010

Her style is new but the face is the same as it was so long ago...
I can't remember how the 4e pixie did it (constrained to 5' above ground?) but if I remember right the dragonborn PP that gave you wings had two kinds of flight, either you start and end on the ground or you spend the whole turn flying and can't attack. There may have been an encounter power that let you do a different kind of flight?

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream

moths posted:

And at that point it's high/long jumping. Flying is a totally different deal, no?

Not really. Because in encounters all flight really does, especially if you don't let them do combat stuff mid flight, is separate you from your party and make you a big, fat, open target. And that's assuming every encounter is gonna be in a nice big open space. It doesn't at a whole 3rd Dimension that you must add things to at all times forever and always, it's not even that great of a bonus.

Jackard
Oct 28, 2007

We Have A Bow And We Wish To Use It
I'd imagine flight would be a non-issue in 13A given that distances have already been abstracted.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



I'm actually referring to non-combat encounters. If the DM designs the game world with the assumption of grounded PCs, flying gives way too much agency to a single player. But if he's designed the game world to account for supermans then what's the point of even having flying? If the second floor windows are always locked, keeps are bristling with AA guns, and pit traps close after you fall through them, then yes - your world is singling out the flying guy to neutralize his ability.

I can't remember exactly what those Dragonborn got, but I do remember 4e paid close attention to abilities that fundamentally changed encounter dynamics. For example, it was initially (and intentionally) much harder to access to total vision in absolute darkness than in 3x. This design went a long way towards preventing one player from cheating the rest of the table out of the play resolving certain environment-based encounters. Bypass_Encounter.EXE got ripped out of spellbooks.

And who complained loudest about that? :smugwizard:

The answer to How do we get over there? becomes always to hand Flying PC a 50' coil of rope. It's a situation one PC forever has a fixed answer to, and that doesn't really stay fun or balanced, IMO. Eventually the DM learns to just not bother with challenges that involve spacial elements.

PublicOpinion
Oct 21, 2010

Her style is new but the face is the same as it was so long ago...
I guess you could put a note on your flying race that says "Recommended for games starting at Champion or higher".

RyvenCedrylle
Dec 12, 2010

Owner of Mystic Theurge Publications

moths posted:

You're shutting down every challenge that involves getting from A to B - unless the DM specifically accommodates (and plans a foil for) one specific player because they have one special specific power.

Fish is running a game where one of our PCs can fly. Straight up flight, in combat or out. The only problem we've run into with flight in a combat is when the flying character can get up in the air with a ranged weapon against melee-only enemies. He can rain death while no one can hit him. It's not that much worse than someone hiding in the back row lobbing arrows, though, and since far away is far away is far away no matter what direction is involved, an enemy archer or caster solves the problem pretty fast. Also, if your flying PC wants to run away or hide? There's an escalation die that doesn't absolutely have to increase each round. Also, campaign failures. Flight just is not nearly the issue it was in 4E or 3E. Flight in 3E.. ecch. That was a pain and a half.

Outside of combat, ok, you can go around the encounters. That's an indictment of me as the GM, not the power of flight. 13th Age rules are still mostly combat. If you're not fighting, you're not really playing a large section of the game. A character who wants to avoid combats by flying away signals a much larger problem with either a) my combat design or b) the focus or flow of the game.. or maybe both.

Golden Bee
Dec 24, 2009

I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.

PublicOpinion posted:

The High Elf teleport already exists, so if flight was constrained to roughly the same utility it wouldn't change my DMing much.

To be fair, the elven teleport is one per combat. When you pair it with a rogue, you have someone who can't be constrained easily, but the rogue's level 1s (Evasive strike, Tumbling Strike, and chances of Swashbuckling) mean it's not an unreasonable advantage. And I've only really used it in 2D (in a way similar to being a very good jumper or tumbler).

Flying isn't a new tool in the toolbox; it's a new toolbox. If your campaign can bear it, or other players can get equivalency (for example, in superhero games, Jumping Hella High and having a Grapple Gun both allow similar things). I wouldn't say hard ban, but handle with care.

-Fish-
Oct 10, 2005

Glub glub.
Glub glub.

RyvenCedrylle posted:

Fish is running a game where one of our PCs can fly. Straight up flight, in combat or out. The only problem we've run into with flight in a combat is when the flying character can get up in the air with a ranged weapon against melee-only enemies. He can rain death while no one can hit him. It's not that much worse than someone hiding in the back row lobbing arrows, though, and since far away is far away is far away no matter what direction is involved, an enemy archer or caster solves the problem pretty fast. Also, if your flying PC wants to run away or hide? There's an escalation die that doesn't absolutely have to increase each round. Also, campaign failures. Flight just is not nearly the issue it was in 4E or 3E. Flight in 3E.. ecch. That was a pain and a half.

Outside of combat, ok, you can go around the encounters. That's an indictment of me as the GM, not the power of flight. 13th Age rules are still mostly combat. If you're not fighting, you're not really playing a large section of the game. A character who wants to avoid combats by flying away signals a much larger problem with either a) my combat design or b) the focus or flow of the game.. or maybe both.

I have the benefit of playing with people who are good at adhering to Wheaton's Law when it comes to gaming. I try to work his flight into my combat. Not by keeping him from using it but by including things that only the flying barbarian can deal with effectively whenever possible. The crab dragon was the most notable example of this.

spider bethlehem
Oct 5, 2007
Makin with the stabbins

Golden Bee posted:

To be fair, the elven teleport is one per combat. When you pair it with a rogue, you have someone who can't be constrained easily, but the rogue's level 1s (Evasive strike, Tumbling Strike, and chances of Swashbuckling) mean it's not an unreasonable advantage. And I've only really used it in 2D (in a way similar to being a very good jumper or tumbler).

Flying isn't a new tool in the toolbox; it's a new toolbox. If your campaign can bear it, or other players can get equivalency (for example, in superhero games, Jumping Hella High and having a Grapple Gun both allow similar things). I wouldn't say hard ban, but handle with care.

I gotta respectfully disagree. I love the ease of teleport powers in 13th Age, in my game we have Half-Giants who get Elven Teleport for enemies (once a battle, throw a bad guy anywhere you want) and it's not unbalanced or unbalancing. For flavor's sake, I think a flying PC is obviously strong, but when you get rid of the 3.x/Pathfinder idea that flying means you have a "fly speed" that's the equivalent of walking and not impacted by your armor or burden or anything, you get a better idea of what it really means. The metaphor I use in my games is that flying, for a non-specialized animal or magical creature, is like climbing a rock face or swimming a rapid - it's awesome, it's fun, it's technical, it's incredibly energy-intensive and no one but a loving idiot would try it with a camping pack, much less full plate and greatsword.

Worst comes to worse, wing injuries are a motherfucker. I have a character now recovering from a crit in the right wing that the player gleefully describes as a "meaty mailslot of poorly cauterized leather". Solves the problem and gives him something to look forward to.

M.c.P
Mar 27, 2010

Stop it.
Stop all this nonsense.

Nap Ghost
In terms of combat mechanics, the only thing I'd be wary about in terms of 'at-will' flight is hanging out in the air and using ranged attacks. A lot of the ranged/melee dichotomy relies on far away attacks being a weaker than nearby attacks, and nearby attacks guaranteeing that a badguy can get in your face in a move action. Disallow attacks in mid-air and its fine.

The other issue I might see is if it allows getting past a monster frontline that would otherwise intercept, but then we're talking melee combat/flight and I don't see much wrong with monsters prepping for a flying charge appropriately.


As for Out of Combat stuff, I'm just gonna throw out ideas.
Birds can't really go straight up, and the bigger ones need updrafts of air to get some serious height. You can't just fly up the Cliffs of Dread to the fort at the top, you have to circle a few times, find an updraft, and do some wing-work to get altitude.

As others have noted, you can see birds for pretty far distances, and human sized ones probably look pretty distinct. Can you conceal yourself from Orcish sentries as you gain altitude on the Cliffs of Dread? Can you or an ally disguise you convincingly as a Midland Albatross while you scope out Fort Hellrock? If not, you're hoofing it like the rest of the party.

A passage big enough for a person walking might not take the wingspan of a bird-dude midflight. You could probably fly across the pit of spikes, but you'll need a running start and it'll get pretty technical near the end. Better roll a Dex+loving Wings background check to see if you don't screw it up.

And really, if a player wants to play a dude with wings, it suggests they want a game with a free approach to exploration. They're not interested in the mechanics of climbing a wall or crossing a river, they want to fly up and see the landscape and use their cool unique abilities to help out the team. And if any B&E session largely involves flying up a wall and dropping a rope, that's not much different from what a sneaky type character would do anyway. And if the campaign absolutely positively must include a challenge where a large expanse/high wall is overcome, then there's plenty of space for challenges against the winged PC.

fakeedit: now I wanna play a wing-dude fighter. Someone start another 13th age PbP

MadScientistWorking
Jun 23, 2010

"I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

moths posted:

I can't remember exactly what those Dragonborn got, but I do remember 4e paid close attention to abilities that fundamentally changed encounter dynamics. For example, it was initially (and intentionally) much harder to access to total vision in absolute darkness than in 3x. This design went a long way towards preventing one player from cheating the rest of the table out of the play resolving certain environment-based encounters. Bypass_Encounter.EXE got ripped out of spellbooks.
You know once again I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't just a problem on the DMing side. So far I've not seen anything that I as a GM would go,"Gee.... This is a boring problem. Let me just write this out of the session." If I am going to make an environment based encounter I am going for something that is memorable. Not just a pit trap or a river.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



I think this is something that plays out worse in practice than on paper. Of course the forums answer is "yes" but at the table there are a lot of unintended / unforseen advantages.

More situations than I can list involve going somewhere that's intentionally inaccessible, and those become trivial to a flying character. And even then it's not just river fording; it's flying high to negate a chase scene, get a view of the hedge maze, access the roof of mystery tower, etc all while the rest of the party stands around watching the 3x Wizard flying guy solve the problem for them.

E: Years ago I was in a Star Wars game where one character could fly, and it got real tedious real quick.

moths fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Mar 13, 2014

-Fish-
Oct 10, 2005

Glub glub.
Glub glub.

Hey Wade, sorry if this has already been asked but do you guys have any plans for Pax East this year?

My Lovely Horse
Aug 21, 2010

PublicOpinion posted:

I can't remember how the 4e pixie did it (constrained to 5' above ground?)
Fly speed 6, maximum height of 1, meaning if you were higher that that at the end of your turn, you'd float safely downwards. Effectively a limit on how high a ledge you can reach or how wide a chasm you can cross in one turn, and it makes sure you stay within enemy reach. Due to some rules interactions it did grant you near complete immunity to being knocked prone.

-Fish-
Oct 10, 2005

Glub glub.
Glub glub.

I went ahead and compiled a list of player options from 13th Age, which I'll keep updated as new stuff comes out. If I missed anything let me know and I'll get it added in!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WzKUVvE7R7qz__aN2fV51YCddViIuEGBhYMjMn2UDUo/edit?usp=sharing/

-Fish- fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Mar 13, 2014

Captain Walker
Apr 7, 2009

Mother knows best
Listen to your mother
It's a scary world out there
Are you going to add the goon-made stuff like the Seeker and Dillettante that aren't in Page XX?

-Fish-
Oct 10, 2005

Glub glub.
Glub glub.

Yes, but that'll be a separate doc, this is the doc for Official Material.

Unknown Quantity
Sep 2, 2011

!
Steven? Steven?!
STEEEEEEVEEEEEEEN!

-Fish- posted:

I went ahead and compiled a list of player options from 13th Age, which I'll keep updated as new stuff comes out. If I missed anything let me know and I'll get it added in!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WzKUVvE7R7qz__aN2fV51YCddViIuEGBhYMjMn2UDUo/edit?usp=sharing/

So is the Witch a work in progress or... Because it has selective MAD, some spells being ridiculously powerful, and then there's the strange class features that are very selective in when they benefit you. Curse of the Old Gods is ridiculous too considering as-written its a free recovery plus some damage as an at-will.

Edit: Curse of the Waning Moon is ridiculously underpowered too. I hate to say it but did this go through any kind of revisions process at all?

Unknown Quantity fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Mar 14, 2014

PublicOpinion
Oct 21, 2010

Her style is new but the face is the same as it was so long ago...
Monster idea I had for playing around with Recoveries: Bloated Reaper

Just Burgs
Jan 15, 2011

Gravy Boat 2k

PublicOpinion posted:

Monster idea I had for playing around with Recoveries: Bloated Reaper

Wow, that thing is so rude.

I love it, I could definitely see myself throwing a few of these at the party.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream
Does anyone have any good Merman-type enemies? Thinking of something similar to Davy Jones and crew from those Later Pirates of the Caribbean movies. Looking here for ideas to start off monster creating.

Kenderama
Mar 12, 2003

Herding Nerds from
2007-2012

-Fish- posted:

I went ahead and compiled a list of player options from 13th Age, which I'll keep updated as new stuff comes out. If I missed anything let me know and I'll get it added in!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WzKUVvE7R7qz__aN2fV51YCddViIuEGBhYMjMn2UDUo/edit?usp=sharing/

You could just make sure they are all added to 13thage.org - which is sort of the point of the site :D

-Fish-
Oct 10, 2005

Glub glub.
Glub glub.

Kenderama posted:

You could just make sure they are all added to 13thage.org - which is sort of the point of the site :D

I just might have to do that! I've got a pretty lax weekend ahead of me.

SirFozzie
Mar 28, 2004
Goombatta!
Good news everyone that ordered the 13th age Bestiary:

Just got an email:

The latest version of the Bestiary is available from your order page - fully laid out. It's off to the printers shortly.

Also, They mention a Midgard 13th Age Bestiary from Kobold Press, but that link is currently 404.

GaistHeidegger
May 20, 2001

"Can you see?"

SirFozzie posted:

Good news everyone that ordered the 13th age Bestiary:

Just got an email:

The latest version of the Bestiary is available from your order page - fully laid out. It's off to the printers shortly.

Also, They mention a Midgard 13th Age Bestiary from Kobold Press, but that link is currently 404.

Thanks for the heads up, the 13th Age Bestiary is fantastic--they really went all-out with it and the layout looks solid. For what it's worth, I bought the Midgard 13th Age Bestiary previously as well after having used it originally with Pathfinder games and they added tons of stuff for the 13th Age release to cover PC races, Icons, etc--the Midgard book is really more of a Midgard 13th Age edition just short of the broader strokes of their setting books.

PublicOpinion
Oct 21, 2010

Her style is new but the face is the same as it was so long ago...
Bloated Reaper worked pretty well. Brought some more monsters that I just got done using in tonight's session: The Four Skeleton Mage Brothers and the Death Knight
The Skeleton Mages were a pretty decent encounter all on their own.

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waderockett
Apr 22, 2012

-Fish- posted:

Hey Wade, sorry if this has already been asked but do you guys have any plans for Pax East this year?

If anyone wants to run 13th Age at PAX East I'm happy to support them however I can. We're not going to have a booth, or people from Pelgrane or Fire Opal there. I know we're going to be at Origins, Gen Con, DragonMeet and PAX Prime.

Speaking of Gen Con, Cat's submitted a ton of play events and panels to the database including a seminar on 13th Age adventure design, a GM roundtable and a monster design workshop.


SirFozzie posted:

They mention a Midgard 13th Age Bestiary from Kobold Press, but that link is currently 404.

Weird - it works for me. So, if you go to the Pelgrane website and look at the new issue of Page XX, there's an article with a discount code for $5 off the Midgard Bestiary and a link to the Kobold Store. The code is good through April 1.

Also the Lurker class, more barbarian talents (winter, infernal and undead themed), undead PC races and an article by Ash on converting 4e monsters to 13th Age. In his column Simon announces a new encounters book by Cal Moore and there's a poll to see if people are interested in a "Ken Writes About Stuff" type subscription dedicated to 13th Age.

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