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If they can do that after we accept, then they can do it without our acceptance, unless their ships are all equipped with Permission Drives.
MagnumOpus fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 21:07
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MagnumOpus posted:If they can do that after we accept, then they can do it without our acceptance, unless their ships are all equipped with Permission Drives. There is significant strategic value in a jump point ambush. It's possible that they are sufficiently far ahead that even in that situation we cannot militarily resist but if not it would be unwise to throw away that advantage*. I leave it to our game mechanics gurus to figure out where we're at on that. *If they are that far ahead it outright doesn't matter what the UN chooses to do anyway, occupation is certain.
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Jul 11, 2014 21:15
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MagnumOpus posted:If they can do that after we accept, then they can do it without our acceptance, unless their ships are all equipped with Permission Drives. No. There is a huge difference between defending jump points and defending open space (or Earth). Battling in open space is pointless, we will lose. Our only hope in war is in jump points - after ships jump through, they have a couple of minutes of mangled sensors, when they cannot fire. In those couple of minutes, if you have ships equipped with beam weapons, you can cause considerable losses or even win the whole battle without any losses. Mesons especially can fire every five seconds and bypass armour. The research even isn't that expensive, and it makes a very effective weapon even with our tech level. When defending jump points, we have a chance. We could conceivably spam dozens of small, meson-armed corvettes and make our jump points virtually impregnable. Once it gets to open space and missile battles, tech level is everything, and we have already lost. Once we let the Mind into Sol, we have lost. markus_cz fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 21:17
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markus_cz posted:No. There is a huge difference between defending jump points and defending open space (or Earth). Battling on open space is pointless, we will lose. Our only hope in war is in jump point - after ships jump through, they have a couple of minutes of mangled sensors, when they cannot fire. In those couple of minutes, if you have ships equipped with beam weapons, you can cause considerable losses or even win the whole battle without any losses. Mesons especially can fire every five seconds and bypass armour. The research even isn't that expensive, and it makes a very effective weapon even with out tech level. When defending jump points, we have a chance. We could conceivably spam dozens of small, meson-armed corvettes and make our jump points virtually impregnable. This sounds like a solid argument for avoiding blockade at all costs, since our theoretical hail mary breakout fleet would suffer under these exact circumstances.
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Jul 11, 2014 21:19
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MagnumOpus posted:This sounds like a solid argument for avoiding blockade at all costs, since our theoretical hail mary breakout fleet would suffer under these exact circumstances. We have a jump point with no evidence of Mind presence beyond it. I believe the UN's current hope is that space is big enough to have a significant amount of territory they do not have a presence in that way.
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Jul 11, 2014 21:28
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I should say that when I say "The defining question is whether the UN wants to go with compliance or not" I mean that's a distinct issue to what you actually tell the Shard your answer is.
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Jul 11, 2014 21:28
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markus_cz posted:If we say we accept, their first demand will be that we tell them the location of Earth, upon which they'll park a huge-rear end fleet on top of Earth to "monitor our progress". That's what I would do, and the Mind is smarter than me. Once we accept, there is no way back. We cannot accept, pay a tribute and build a war fleet in secret. They're not stupid! Acceptance IS capitulation. If we don't tell them the location of Earth they will find it. You're the map guy Markus, tell me what the odds are that the two separate Mind ships are both going to pick the wrong direction out of their limited options. Last I checked the chances of them both selecting a path that won't take them to Sol within a year is 1/9. The location of Sol is only going to be worth anything for roughly another year of game time, after that they will know where we are whether we like it or not. quote:Yeah the Mind isn't just going to go "okay we trust you" and patiently wait in their territory when we say "yes we will join your hive mind, just wait outside our system for a couple of years - we gotta bake a 'Happy Joining Day' Cake for the ceremony". I will remind you again that the Mind didn't notice or bother to check on the disappearance of the Belnar. At this point the one example that we actually have of how the mind treats their probationary members is that they tend to be remarkably hands off. This seems to be in keeping with their stated goals and tenets, in that it is easier for the Mind to have local species attempt to uplift others than to hang around wasting TNE resources in 'backwater' areas. quote:We have a jump point with no evidence of Mind presence beyond it. I believe the UN's current hope is that space is big enough to have a significant amount of territory they do not have a presence in that way. Mere weeks ago in game time the Federation also had a jump point with no evidence of Mind presence beyond it. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. I'm going to work up a UNFRaD communique regarding the officer exchange. First however, I have to find the contact info for my Fed counterparts. My predecessor seems to have taken the rolodex with him.
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Jul 11, 2014 21:37
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UberJew posted:We have a jump point with no evidence of Mind presence beyond it. I believe the UN's current hope is that space is big enough to have a significant amount of territory they do not have a presence in that way. Are you referring to the K2 system which has a non-responsive hostile alien presence that destroyed the last ships we sent in? Alchenar posted:I should say that when I say "The defining question is whether the UN wants to go with compliance or not" I mean that's a distinct issue to what you actually tell the Shard your answer is. This is a highly condensed but accurate summary of my argument. Saying "We're in" does not enforce our compliance any more than it could already have been forced. Whether we say Yes or No is literally the difference between Being Blockaded and a set of infinite possibilities including the possibility of Being Blockaded upon changing our mind down the road. Even all this "Jump Point Ambush" talk is still within the realm of possibility should we say yes. Saying Yes in no way alters the laws of physics that govern the effects of jump point traversal on ship sensors, the results of meson bombardment on a starship, or the price of tea in China.
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Jul 11, 2014 21:44
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Caros posted:I will remind you again that the Mind didn't notice or bother to check on the disappearance of the Belnar. At this point the one example that we actually have of how the mind treats their probationary members is that they tend to be remarkably hands off. This seems to be in keeping with their stated goals and tenets, in that it is easier for the Mind to have local species attempt to uplift others than to hang around wasting TNE resources in 'backwater' areas. I find your hope that the Mind are unable to infer our true intentions from the interactions we've had with them already less believable than the hope that they have not headed towards all three jump points. Our true intentions being so far to become the galactic ecological disaster that they exist to prevent, as no one has yet tried to argue that a permanent end to exponential economic growth is a good thing. My expectation is that they've already inferred our intentions and a military fleet is enroute to either enforce a blockade or to provide observers to any of our exploration/expansion and enforce tax collection (because by god I guarantee UN would try to cheat the budget within a heartbeat if they didn't) depending on our decision. atelier morgan fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 21:45
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Caros posted:If we don't tell them the location of Earth they will find it. You're the map guy Markus, tell me what the odds are that the two separate Mind ships are both going to pick the wrong direction out of their limited options. I agree here, they will find the location of Earth soon anyway. The big difference is us letting them in, which I suppose will happen if we say we agree with their guidance. If we say that we agree with the guidance, but then blow up Peaceful Concepts of Communion before it stabilises the jump gate... well then, be my guest, this is exactly what I want. In other words, them knowing the location of Earth is a certainty. Us letting them in must not happen.
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Jul 11, 2014 22:24
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UberJew posted:We have a jump point with no evidence of Mind presence beyond it. I believe the UN's current hope is that space is big enough to have a significant amount of territory they do not have a presence in that way. Why do you think a Blockade would involve them sitting outside the Jump Points leading into Sol that they currently know about? Just because they say they'll blockade us doesn't mean that they'll be one hundred percent reactive for the entirety of their blockade, after all that would be reprehensibly stupid. If the Mind decides to blockade Sol they won't just sit outside, they'll almost certainly jump a fleet into the System, conduct a Jump point survey and then jump blockade squadrons through each and every JP whilst sending scouts down those jump points to find ways for their blockade squadrons to receive supplies or be rotated out for maintenance. And in the meantime I wouldn't be surprised if they always have at least one group of fast observation ships running around Sol to keep a close eye on us. With regular spoiling raids to destroy any new ships we build. Given the currently observed technological disparity if the Mind wants us blockaded in we will be blockaded in, completely, utterly and irrevocably. Thinking otherwise is simply falling into the trap of assuming your opponent is an idiot. And the above isn't even the worst potential blockade they could impose. The Community is dedicated to TN element preservation, and whilst they might not willingly throw asteroids at the Earth to kill us all off before we exhaust all trans-newtonian elements it might make sense to mount a close blockade over Earth in order to preserve what resources are left in Sol from us. The other major advantage of such a tactic being that by just having ships around Earth itself they'll be able to use fewer ships and significantly less fuel.
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Jul 11, 2014 22:37
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I'm not sure what you think I've said that you're arguing with. If we don't or are unable to keep the Mind outside of Sol via jump point ambush then the are absolutely free to do whatever they want. If we do keep them out of Sol, the aforementioned hope is that exploration through the direction they are not will allow expansion without the need to go on the offensive.
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Jul 11, 2014 22:42
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markus_cz posted:The big difference is us letting them in, which I suppose will happen if we say we agree with their guidance. The physical phenomena of jump point traversal is unrelated to the conceptual phenomena of responding to the Mind's offer in either the affirmative or the negative. It is not as if their units cannot enter our hex without setting our diplomatic status to war or open borders. If the issue is the supposition that agreeing will trigger them sending ships to Sol then this can be a point of negotiation. Something like: "The Community is a culture that is as accustomed to decision making greatly influenced by the forecasting of many potential future scenarios. As such, perhaps you can understand our concern that among our own forecasts is the possibility that this is an elaborate ploy to gain unresisted access to our homeworld system. We are a people of diverse opinions and our idiom is to develop consensus through consideration of all perspectives of the represented population. If you can assist us in assuaging the homeworld access concern it would remove a significant barrier to our our entrance into the Community, which we are very much inclined to accept if we can satisfy our concerns about existential dangers."
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Jul 11, 2014 22:43
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UberJew posted:I'm not sure what you think I've said that you're arguing with. If we don't or are unable to keep the Mind outside of Sol via jump point ambush then the are absolutely free to do whatever they want. If we do keep them out of Sol, the aforementioned hope is that exploration through the direction they are not will allow expansion without the need to go on the offensive. My apologies if my post was a little too combative. The only thing I'd add is that Jump Point defence, whilst providing huge advantages is not infallible. A lot would depend on the design and purpose of the ships the Mind sent in on their first wave, but I'd be willing to bet money they have ships already designed for breaking through a Jump Point Defence force. In the end all you need is something with very heavy armour and a lot of short range weapons for when jump shock wears off. Given the presumed technological level at which the Mind is operating such designs would be far more viable than our own versions would. Meaning that sooner or later, likely sooner, they would break through.
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Jul 11, 2014 22:52
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MagnumOpus posted:This is a highly condensed but accurate summary of my argument. Saying "We're in" does not enforce our compliance any more than it could already have been forced. Whether we say Yes or No is literally the difference between Being Blockaded and a set of infinite possibilities including the possibility of Being Blockaded upon changing our mind down the road. The thing is the UN is still divided on what its actual objective in negotiations is, let alone what strategy should be used in those negotiations. ps. The whole 'play jump point battles' plan vs the faction who's war plan for every race they've ever met for the last few billion years has been 'blockade of jump points' is a special idea. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 22:55
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BwenGun posted:My apologies if my post was a little too combative. Meaning we shouldn't even try to defend ourselves at all? EDIT: What I'm saying is that our only hope of defense is at the jump points. Nowhere else. Once they're in, we have lost and we're their slaves. EDIT2: VVV As slaves, yes. markus_cz fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Jul 11, 2014 |
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Jul 11, 2014 22:58
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markus_cz posted:Meaning we shouldn't even try to defend ourselves at all? Possibly not. The Belnar agreed to join and then were essentially left to their own devices. There are a variety of potential strategies beyond open defiance.
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Jul 11, 2014 23:01
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markus_cz posted:Meaning we shouldn't even try to defend ourselves at all? No, if our leadership decides to commit to the long term extinction of the human race by defying the Mind and the Community then I'll happily park my ship on a Jump Point and go down swinging. But go down we will. Even if we accept that they will keep as close an eye on us as you expect there's one thing about being a slave that beats being a dead free man. Time. Time enough to find a way out of servitude, time to answer all the questions we have about the Belnar, the Mind and the Community. Time to figure out a way to get around the TNE crunch. "Better to die on my feet than live on my knees" has a certain poetic quality about it. But death is final, just as the blockade will be final. Better to play for time and still retain a chance at independence in the future than go down a course of action that leaves us trapped in Sol with not a damned thing to do to rectify the situation.
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Jul 11, 2014 23:23
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Am I right in thinking that we have researched ion engines? Because if we have then a really cheap, practical and useful thing to do would be to redesign all our missiles so that current gen ships have ion missiles to fire. Also, can we send a Delphi or a Endymion or Both to Thebes? I'd really like to know how far behind the Giza the minds follow up forces are. Although I suppose its possible that they're right behind it and we cant detect them with our sensors.
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Jul 12, 2014 00:05
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 From: UNFRAD, Deputy Adam Caros To: FedCentCom, FAUN Eduard Ignatov Re: Diplomatic Observers In the interest of keeping humanity unified in the face of the possibily existential threat posed by the mind, UNFRaD would like to propose the addition of outside observers to both the UNS Osaka, and whatever location the Federation ultimately decides to house the diplomatic ambassador that the Mind provides. Ideally these observers can simply be pulled from the UN and Federation diplomatic or officers corps, though if you prefer we can have a neutral third party present. Such an observer will alleviate even the appearance that either the Federation or the UN is participating in one sided talks to extract benefits for their faction at the expense of humanity as a whole. If this deal is acceptable to you we will be more than happy to transmit all necessary communications protocols that we have developed to allow your discussions to begin as quickly as possible. In addition, if possible we would appreciate if the Federation could retrace much of the same ground during its initial questioning. Though it seems a somewhat blatant gambit if the Mind is communicating between the two groups, there is a small possibility that the ambassador might give information to the Federation that runs contrary to what we have been told. On a more personal note, may I add that I do hope that it will be a pleasure to work with you. A study over previous communications between our two factions has shown you to be a reasonable man, and I do always appreciate working alongside sensible individuals. Message ends Caros fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Jul 12, 2014 |
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Jul 12, 2014 00:28
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dogsarentdangerous posted:Am I right in thinking that we have researched ion engines? Because if we have then a really cheap, practical and useful thing to do would be to redesign all our missiles so that current gen ships have ion missiles to fire. 1) You can use the Raw Viewer to answer this question. 2) That was UNIN's proposed plan, shot down by the Shard in the latest Shard post. UNS Midway: Sol-Zhongguo Jump Point, 10th October 2036, 4:58 UTC CMDR Jesenjin reports that the Moskva/Medved task group has retreated back into Zhongguo, presumably to carry further contact orders to the ships in contact with the Mind vessel several systems beyond.  Later in the day, BuPers announces that the commissioning of another UNIN flag officer means that a new Commodore is required. The Promotion Committee selects CAPT Anta to become UNIN's ninth commodore. BuPers announces that this will also prompt the promotion of a new Rear Admiral, though the Promotion Committee has yet to decide on which UNIN commodore will receive this promotion. Elsewhere, UNFI reports that the new Nanuchka-class vessel recently launched by the Federation has reached Mars and fallen into a holding orbit with the 2nd Battle Division. Finally, UNS Abra is ordered to stop picketing asteroid Allen and return to overwatch duties at the Sol-K2 jump point. Gnooble posted:To: Kontr-Admiral Arman Melnikov, FEDCENTCOM To: Rear Admiral George Stansberry, UNIN From: Kapitan Cai Hua Qiao, FEDCENTCOM OPS Subject: Mutual Defense Rear admiral, two Moskvas will be allocated to the Roanoke jump point: Riyadh and Bangkok. Due to maintenance issues, they will remain in reserve at Mars until such time as you have need of them, at which point they will be dispatched to the Sol-Roanoke JP at full speed. Earth: Goa, 11th October 2036 On the final day of the Goa conference, the delegations submit their selections for a joint human expedition to Mind/Community space beyond Hakahaka. The UN contingent consists of CMDR Dawncloack (UNIN/UNFI), CMDR Deranged Imp (UNIN), CMDR wj5 (UNIN), Dr. unwantedplatypus (UNSA), Colonel Nathaniel Canelo (UNGF), and CAPT Raw_Beef (UNIN/UNSF), recently reactivated on Earth after being MIA for some time. The Federation elects to send Podpokovnik Vitenka Osipov, a member of the Federation Space Marine Force (FZMS), Dr. Laurente Babushkin, head of the Federation Science Directorate (NUF), Grisha Nikolsky, a civilian administrator currently overseeing automated mining operation on 10 Hygiea, along with another Federation civilian administrator, Mikhail Manderov. Rounding out the Federation delegation are Kommanders Bohdan Izmaylov and Shyam Gantare of the Federation Navy. Cornucopia elects to send a single representative, Coronel Victoria Elizondo. The remainder of the minor factions elect not to send representatives, pending further developments. Dubbed the "ISIS Expedition," the initial plan is for the UN sensor frigate UNS Pythia to carry the team to the Sol-Roanoke jump point, at which point further arrangements will be made to deliver the expedition to Hakahaka. After this, however, the Federation announces to the Goa conference attendees that it has made contact with a second Mind linelayer in one of the systems beyond Zhongguo. In order to better coordinate, the Federation proposes a permanent Solar Defence Council, initially based in Goa, with representatives from all interested parties at the Goa Conference. Gnooble posted:
SundayThorn posted:
Caros posted:
From: FAUN Ignatov To: FedCentCom, UNFRAD, UNIN Re: Communicating with the Mind While the Federation is committing to contact with the Mind on our own terms, we will of course be sharing all relevant information on Mind behaviour and capabilities, pursuant to the mutual defence of Sol. We will pay particular attention to any discrepancies similar to the "Osaka Effect." We agree that an observer exchange is in the best interests of both parties, and have been lobbying for a Federation observer to be granted access to the Shard for some weeks now. As for what information to convey, we see no benefit in attempting to mislead the Mind with regards to Federation or UN capabilities. Simply inform them that we are a similar supra-national organization with a different form of government and organization from the UN. Anything further that it wishes to know can be learned from us directly, either in FED 003 or from our representatives on the ISIS Expedition. In our preliminary contact with the Mind (greatly assisted by the information forwarded from the TACT reports), they indicated that they were familiar with humans by way of the UN, and based on our differing communications protocols, inferred that we constitute a separate faction, which we did not deny. On the face of things, it appears to be uncomplicated in its handling of contact with two factions. It does not appear disingenuous or deceptive with regard to information sought or provided thus far. In fact, its treatment of us and its queries are extremely similar to those contained in the TACT reports, and our responses (which have mostly followed that script) have been met with similar reactions. Pursuant to UNIN Director Gnooble's queries about Klondike-Kagayan, we will also contribute as many warships as necessary for the eradication of the K2 automatons, provided the Federation receives some share of any recovered technologies and a stake in newly available system real estate. Callisto: UNIN HQ, Ragnarok, 12th October 2036  BuPers, after several days of deliberation, confirms CAPT Hurriness as the third UNIN Rear Admiral. With three rear admirals, BuPers decides to form a selection committee for UNIN's first Vice Admiralty, with the leading contender being Rear Admiral Floyd Bareilles, long-time commander of UNIN's Earth Defense Bases. Director Gnooble has hinted that a slight reorganization of the command hierarchy may take place at that time. In more sombre news, reports out of India indicate that a small commercial airliner crash has claimed the life of Col. Roxanna Cossa, a valued member of the UN's embassy to the Federation. There is no immediate word on her replacement. Callisto: UNIN HQ, Ragnarok, 14th October 2036  After two days of deliberations, the BuPers promotion committee confirms Rear Admiral Floyd Bareilles as UNIN's first Vice Admiral. There is continuing speculation that Admiral Bareilles will take over UNIN's 1st Fleet sometime in the coming weeks. Earth: Low Earth Orbit, 16th October 2036  EADS-Astrium reports the completion of the fifth Gibraltar-B-class monitor, UNS Jutland. Placed under the command of CDRE Jaramr, Jutland will wait in a holding orbit for its sister ship Mackinac, due to be launched some three days hence. Elsewhere, the courier carrying the Shard artefacts and first contact crew arrives at Callisto. The crew are segregated from the rest of the UNIN personnel and begin an intensive battery of psychological and neurological examinations and debriefings, while UNIN's best data technicians go to work on the collected logs, videos, and transcripts.  Later in the day, UNFI reports that the Federation Moskva 31-class corvette Riyadh has arrived at Mars on a bearing indicating it departed from Titan. The ship settles into orbit around Mars along with another corvette, presumed to be Bangkok. Earth: Low Earth Orbit, 17th October 2036  The American consortium operating the International Space Station as a commercial shipyard indicates that its second slipway is now available for construction. BuShips issues a contract ordering that the station be reconfigured for construction of Brunel-class linelayers, which will also allow construction of Dundee-class freighters. This conversion will take until mid-February 2038.  Elsewhere, UNS Caloocan arrives at the Roanoke-Uwazi jump point. It will transit into Uwazi, join the jump tender Alan Turing, and return to the Uwazi-Batavia jump point. From there, Caloocan will proceed alone into Batavia to scan various bodies for mine fields. Earth: Low Earth Orbit, 20th October 2036  EADS-Astrium reports the completion of the monitor Mackinac, which is placed under the command of CAPT David Corbett. This causes a spate of other personnel reassignments. Meanwhile, the two recently constructed monitors begin their shakedown cruise to Callisto, after which they'll join the 1st Fleet Training Squadron. Elsewhere, the UNFI team commanded by Col. Renato Cornelio reports that a deep-cover operation to infiltrate the Federation's Astrocartography Directorate has been successful. The system, known internally as FED 002, consists of a a K8-V star and a single small terrestrial world half the size of Earth. Both jump points were included in the stolen data: the JP to Zhongguo is 2.76b km from the system primary at a bearing of 206°, while the jump point to what is presumed to be FED 003, where the Federation encountered the second Giza is 3.7b km from the primary at a bearing of 329°. The assets used to pull off the theft were uncompromised and may come in useful again during later operations. Standard astrographic report to follow at a later date. Officer Attribute Increases
Civilian Construction
bgreman fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Jul 15, 2014 |
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Jul 12, 2014 01:27
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 In accordance with previous discussion among staff, UNFRaD requests a formal vote on the subject of releasing some, or all of our Stellar Cartography to the Mind as it has repeatedly requested. Any decision made by the UNEC would be subject to approval by Cornucopia or the Federation. Failing approval for that I would request the matter be returned for an additional vote to determine whether or not the issue is still worth pressing. As it stands, our most recent estimates (Provided by Marcus_cz) have the Peaceful Concepts of Communion begin stabilizing the Sol side of the Sol-Roanoke Jump Point at or around June 5th of 2037, and finishing the 23rd of October of the same year. This estimate assumes that the GIZA correctly chooses between Uwazi and Sol Jump Points in Roanoke. Our original plan, as I understand it, was to attempt to feint the Giza in the direction of Uwazi in hopes that it would get lost along that Jump chain, and failing that, to intercept the GIZA and destroy or halt its progress on Sol side stabilization . Unfortunately, that plan has been called into question by recent developments in FED 003. The appearance of a second GIZA linelayer, also two jumps from Sol drastically reduces our chances of pulling off any sort of deception in the long term. As of current information we had a 50-50 shot at diverting the Giza into the Uwazi path. The second GIZA-class vessel suggests an even smaller chance than previously anticipated, perhaps as low as 25%. Simply put, in the opinion of UNFRaD, the Mind is going to locate Sol, and they are going to do it sooner rather than later. A direct path will have one of the Linelayers at earth within the year, while a more optimistic view could have them taking double or triple that, assuming that they do not send any sort of faster jump enabled ship to scout the way. At this point we believe that the location of Sol is worth more as a bargaining chip and token of goodwill than as a secret. Our current policy of being secretive and near antagonistic with the mind is ultimately not one that we can sustain, and in the interest of our preservation UNFRaD has prepared a few options: Option A - Keep the Status Quo. Do not reveal the location of Sol at present and revisit the issue at a later date. Option B - Reveal the Location of Sol. This option would have us holding back all of our star charts save the direct lines for the Giza's to approach Sol. Option C - Full disclosure. Give the Mind access to all of our Cartographic informations. Option D - Full disclosure, with the exception of K2. Keeping K2 hidden is a bit of a gamble since it would no doubt upset the Mind once they inevitably learn of the JP's existence. Currently UNFRaD supports option C unless Ceebees overrules me. If the Giza enters Sol without being destroyed they are going to pick up on K2 more or less right away, and any diplomatic benefits we will gain from this will be nil if we try and hedge the line and pretend we have not located other systems. With all of that said UNFRaD expects this to be a trade with the mind. Current intentions are to either hold the Cartographic data up in exchange for our own and/or access to their territory. Alternately, we may attempt to leverage it into an attempt to keep them out of Sol in the first place. We will likely come back to UNEC for final approval on the trade if the vote turns out to be close, I just don't want to go floating the idea to the Fed's only to UNEC tell me to shove it. Very unprofessional. For now, I'll leave it up to UNEC to decide what we are doing. In the interest of saving space I'm also going to include a statement of the four primary goals that UNFRaD sees as our current focus: 1. Ascertaining the military preparedness of the mind by diplomatic means. Simply asking probably won't do the things, but asking for response times, possibly providing the specs for the K2 aliens to see how much of a threat they consider them and the like. The ISIS team will likely also help since they will get to see a Community planet first hand. 2. Clarifying specific requirements, obligations, timetables and benefits to membership in the community. This is by no means an assertion that joining the Community is UNFRaD policy, as at this point we simply do not have the required information to make an informed decision on such an important topic. UNFRaD policy is still in accordance with previous UNEC decisions to destroy the GIZA linelayer if it enters and begins to stabilize the Sol JP. 3. Engage the Mind in strong diplomatic talks in an effort to achieve current UN goals. The primary goal at the moment would be to keep the linelayers out of Sol. While it may be impossible, so far many have given up on the idea solely because the mind rejected our initial request. A shift into a more open policy may allow the Mind to rethink this policy, as might something as simple as a threat when the time comes. 4. Strengthen diplomatic ties with the Federation and Cornucopia. Despite our historical disagreement, this, if anything is a time for a more unified humanity. UNFRaD must work to strengthen ties with other major human organizations to present a unified front in the face of significant concerns posed by the mind. UNIN - Point one clearly involves either a joint decision or a UNEC vote on whether giving any tactical information about the K2 aliens puts us at any sort of risk. Clearly we would be attempting to Obfuscate the location of the K2 aliens to somewhere along one of the other jump chains rather than admitting the existence of K2. If you are in agreement I doubt we need to put it to a full vote, but I'd like to get your opinion before we even broach the subject with the mind. Caros fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jul 12, 2014 |
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Jul 12, 2014 01:39
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Caros posted:
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Jul 12, 2014 04:11
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Coolguye posted:I want to be 500% clear about something: 90%+ of my posting is out-of-character. Basically unless you see a bolded letterhead or something you can presume I'm saying nothing official. And when we do see the letterhead, at can presume that you're saying nothing useful  (I kid, I kid!)
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Jul 12, 2014 04:28
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Coolguye posted:I want to be 500% clear about something: 90%+ of my posting is out-of-character. Basically unless you see a bolded letterhead or something you can presume I'm saying nothing official. Made a correction to that. I'll watch for letterhead in the meantime. Thank you. 
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Jul 12, 2014 04:58
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I would point out that even if we manage to lead PCOC to Uwazi and they still open the second route from Zhongguo, this is good! There is a big difference between defending two jump points, and defending one. So even though the overall chance of keeping Earth hidden is small, the chance of keeping at least one of the two approaches hidden is quite reasonable. We won't keep it hidden forever, but if the Mind has to spend months surveying Roanoke, and then goes to Uwazi where it spends months surveying this system before it realises we must be somewhere else, that wins us more time to prepare. Time is what we need. The current estimate is that the PCOC will stabilise the Hakahaka-Roanoke jump gate in about two months - middle of December. I would advise not giving them any chart data until we actually see what they do after jumping to Roanoke. Patience is the key and UNFRAD is currently acting in panic. Can we please postpone the vote until December? By that time we will have more useful data. Or at least make postponement one of the options. EDIT: I'm also uncomfortable with voting on a permission to trade our maps without knowing what we would be getting in return (sans abstract "good will"). Before we vote on any trade, we need to know both sides of the bargain. markus_cz fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Jul 12, 2014 |
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Jul 12, 2014 06:59
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Earth: Rio de Janeiro, 24th October 2036 UNSA opens another new research campus outside of Rio. The staff and facilities are given over to Dr. Eumenides's work on miniaturizing the ion engine concept for a missile bus. The resources assigned to produce the new research facility are redirected at pre-fabricating a number of components for the Lyell-class survey vessel being contracted from Cornucopia. UNS Alan Turing: Roanoke-Uwazi Jump Point, 24th October 2036   Alan Turing reappears on the Roanoke side of the jump point to Uwazi, reporting that it successfully escorted UNS Caloocan into Batavia for minesweeping operations. CMDR GladRagKraken also reports that while en route back to the Roanoke jump point, UNS Shambhala reported the discovery of yet another jump point in Uwazi. This jump point is the most distant yet, 3.9b km from the system primary at bearing 77°. This is almost twice as distant from the primary as the next innermost jump point, which remains unexplored. Earth: UNSA HQ, Geneva, 27th October 2036 UNSA, having had several days to peruse the intelligence data on FED 002, prepares an astrographic report. Astrographic Report for System FED 002 FED (Federation Extrasolar Designation) 002 is a single star system located 5.519 parsecs (18 light years) from Sol at 13h 51m 36s right ascension, declination 83.07°. It appears as a magnitude 5.90 star in the northern sky in the constellation Camelopardalis.  The system contains a sole planet, a Mercury-like world half the size of Earth, orbiting 0.320 AU from the primary. The planet is heavily cratered, but lies within the habitable zone of its parent star. It is a somewhat more difficult terraforming effort than Mars, but less than the effort required for a Jovian satellite. The Federation information provided by Col. Cornelio does not include mineral data, so it is unknown whether the planet bears any TNE deposits. Officer Attribute Increases
Civilian Construction
Medved/Moskva - Grisha rendezvouses near Sol-Zhongguo JP
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Jul 12, 2014 10:28
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markus_cz posted:I would point out that even if we manage to lead PCOC to Uwazi and they still open the second route from Zhongguo, this is good! There is a big difference between defending two jump points, and defending one. So even though the overall chance of keeping Earth hidden is small, the chance of keeping at least one of the two approaches hidden is quite reasonable. We won't keep it hidden forever, but if the Mind has to spend months surveying Roanoke, and then goes to Uwazi where it spends months surveying this system before it realises we must be somewhere else, that wins us more time to prepare. Time is what we need. Option A is the refuse/postpone option. We can take the issue up again at any time if it is rejected currently. My issue with giving them the data once they have stabilized Hakahaka-Roanoke is that it is effectively pointless from a diplomatic perspective at that point. If they are already steaming towards Sol then we aren't really acting in good faith or telling them anything they don't already know, we're just resignedly giving them information that is now worthless. If they offered us map data that was essentially worthless we'd be pissed as well. The only value it would have at that point is for the second route to Sol, and that only if we can get the Fed's permission. As to your edit, this vote is simply to discern whether the UNEC is even remotely open to the idea of trading the data for anything at all. There is zero benefit to going around, shopping the idea to the Feds and Cornucopia, spending time diplomatically wrangling with the mind over specifics of what we will and will not get in exchange if at the end of the day we'd be coming back to a UNEC who will refuse under any and all circumstances. The specifics of any trade would be subject to a final vote. This is just to see if it is even worth my time starting talks on the issue, or whether UNEC has an ironclad policy prohibiting the trade of such data at any point. Edit: Though I personally have my opinion on the matter, it really isn't any skin off my back if we refuse the issue or choose to revisit it at a later date. I'm just trying to figure out what tools UNFRaD has for diplomatic purposes, and the Cartographic data is one of the biggest. Caros fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Jul 12, 2014 |
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Jul 12, 2014 14:54
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 Vice Admiral Floyd Bareilles takes command of UNIN First Fleet Rear Admiral George Stansberry takes over Operations for First Fleet Rear Admiral Hurriness retains tactical command of UNIN forces CMDR markus_cz is assigned to the Federation Embassy to replace the late Colonel Cossa From: UNIN, VADM Floyd Bareilles To: FEDCENTCOM Subject: K2 Gentlemen, although we welcome your aid and assistance in the spirit of unity, we cannot in good conscience promise any real estate assets within Klondike Kagayan without a full authorization from UNEC. The Articles of Colonization explicitly grant the system of Klondike-Kagayan to the United Nations, and until a full plan for dealing the the MIND and whether an evacuation of Sol will be required, we cannot agree that you would be permitted access to the system for colonization purposes. I am sure you can understand these concerns, having had similar concerns about Zhongguo during the Annapolis Conference. To: WAYFARER From: UNIN Survey Re: Batavia Acknowledged that UNS Caloocan has begun minesweeping. Please return and verify safety of inner Batavia (A-V and within) system, dispatching Boomtown to begin geosurvey if safe. Caloocan can then begin sweeping the outer system while UNS Turing makes periodic 2 week checks on progress. Minesweeping Protocol is as follows: Activate active sensors. Approach to within 1m km of probable field location, slow to 500kps, and move in. If a mine is detected, halt and fire a single AMM at the mine. Repeat if mine is not destroyed. If an active attack is detected, full speed away while firing all AMMs at incoming ordnance. Continue sweeping the area until the body or point in question is verified to to not have mines present in orbit. UNEC BUSINESS UNIN prefers Option A - we need not make this decision at the moment, and I would at least like to get answers to your questions and the Shard data before we make a decision. Also, revealing the location of Sol should be a joint decision with FEAN. UNRL/UNIEB can we get standing orders for the Masadas I previously requested? UNRL will need to transfer each set of parts as completed along with the remaining mineral required, 2 PDCS to Luna, 1 PDC to Callisto. UNIEB will then need to authorize immediate construction with all capacity. Also if I can pop in with some disturbing reminders about the MIND. They did not, to our knowledge, survey Hakahaka, but rather, simply headed directly to the Roanoke Jump Point once they had finished stabilizing Thebes. We have no reason to assume they will need to pause in Roanoke, and decent evidence that either they do not require gravsurveys at all, or have already done so before our own explorations. Gnooble fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jul 12, 2014 |
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Jul 12, 2014 15:15
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Gnooble posted:Also if I can pop in with some disturbing reminders about the MIND. They did not, to our knowledge, survey Hakahaka, but rather, simply headed directly to the Roanoke Jump Point once they had finished stabilizing Thebes. We have no reason to assume they will need to pause in Roanoke, and decent evidence that either they do not require gravsurveys at all, or have already done so before our own explorations. A thought I had: we know that the location of jump points is directly related to the properties of a system's star, and we know the Mind claims to be able to communicate with stars. It's possible that their apparent ability to skip surveys is related to this.
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Jul 12, 2014 15:34
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Gnooble posted:Also if I can pop in with some disturbing reminders about the MIND. They did not, to our knowledge, survey Hakahaka, but rather, simply headed directly to the Roanoke Jump Point once they had finished stabilizing Thebes. We have no reason to assume they will need to pause in Roanoke, and decent evidence that either they do not require gravsurveys at all, or have already done so before our own explorations. If that's the case, then they already have the map data, they just want us to show that we're not going to be shitlords about the whole thing. I'm 100% behind what MagnumOpus is saying.
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Jul 12, 2014 16:18
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It's actually a really interesting speculative position we're in. The thoughts I wanted to throw out there for consideration are not necessarily the same I'd go with if we were dealing with a human polity. Since these are aliens, with different evolution paths both biologically and socially, strategies that rely on behavior prediction become of questionable validity at best. Better to default to something more pragmatic. I chose Realpolitik, which is basically political game theory flavored to taste by nation/regime. I'm looking at this similar to the Jacques Chirac turn of the century french political shift: realistic evaluation with significantly reduced concern about traditional political ethics. This manifests most relevantly for this topic as a cold treatment of negotiations as tools for manipulating the diplomatic situation for the purpose of delaying actions of other parties, obfuscating your true intentions, gathering information in domains in a directed search for opportunities to gain advantage. If this sounds just like politics of the past century that's because it has been the dominant thread in 20th century political theory ever since the Russians lied to the Allies about the assault of Berlin. The reason I've been mostly in dialog with markus_cz is actually that my personal sentiments are most similar to his; these aliens must be regarded as hostile and lethal. This is simply because we are dealing with our first contact with other life, so while the vast majority of our assumptions need to be tossed out the window there are a few observations about Life that are as basic as they are cautionary. In my opinion chief among those is that life regardless of sentience or sapience nearly always conflicts in such a way as to reward the position of dominance to those species most dangerous to other life. This bio/political entity at least claims to dominate a Type 2 Kardeshev Civilization so that would seem to imply a great deal of danger. Where I'm arguing that we should Accept the Community offer immediately is simply from that place of reasoning. The level of possible danger we could be in as a species is so high that we must put aside all of our previous notions and examine the situation from absolute cold logic. It is not about capitulation, we are not doing anything with any intention of giving one inch of our security away. We're giving the lipservice required to avoid the Mind moving to their stated alternative to negotiations. We're doing this because not doing it would be like sprinting to a red light. Instead say what needs to be said to get them revealing more information to us both directly in terms of more favorable flow of information once we stop acting skittish, and indirectly in the observations of what actions they want to take next in "the process". Because that's what we really need to be focused on here. Not negotiating concessions, not being coy about information they are going to get their hands on themselves and certainly not by trying to trick them by supposing they have not heard it all before in other first contacts. We need to know everything we can about this Process of theirs, because make no mistake folks they are here to loving Process us. They have not even attempted to disguise that. We have a long history of Processing racial groups here on Earth that conjures some pretty bleak images. Every action we take must be to determine how and with what capability are they preparing to begin the Processing of Humanity.
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Jul 12, 2014 17:46
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Gnooble posted:
 Authorization confirmed for when the parts are transferred!
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Jul 13, 2014 02:56
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Alright, a new ship! I'll take good care of her.
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Jul 13, 2014 06:53
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Thanks for clarifying, Caros. UNRL votes A on the map deal (keep the status quo). While we understand the need for good diplomatic relations with the Mind, we are concerned that a conflict is inevitable, in which case giving them any strategic information at all would be just foolish. Let them find them on their own. There is still a chance that Peaceful Concepts of Communion could be lead to Uwazi. We are willing to reconsider this stance later in December when we know how PCOC actually acts in Roanoke.
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Jul 13, 2014 08:29
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Volmarias posted:If that's the case, then they already have the map data, they just want us to show that we're not going to be shitlords about the whole thing. It's almost like you people don't read my posts  Kal-L posted:Well, the Mind has already said that: And I agree that we shouldn't reveal Sol's location without: Getting equivalent information in return/ ask the Federation. MagnumOpus makes a good point that the Mind's purpose is to deal with us. But I disagree that it means that Humanity is hosed. They're alien, and being alien, means we can't measure their responses according to out own human experience or logic. If it turns out that they mean more harm than good, even if they don't, then yes, we should take every step possible to defend ourselves.
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Jul 13, 2014 08:32
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Kal-L posted:MagnumOpus makes a good point that the Mind's purpose is to deal with us. But I disagree that it means that Humanity is hosed. They're alien, and being alien, means we can't measure their responses according to out own human experience or logic. To be clear, I'm not making any predictions about whether we are hosed or not. To do so would be embracing fatalism, which I think we can all agree is not the appropriate behavior for this sort of existential crisis. The point I would like to make clear is that the level of potential danger is so high that we cannot afford to be anything but completely pragmatic in identifying how we can possibly seize the most advantage in every opportunity. Then furthermore that the most immediate opportunity to gain advantage is to do whatever possible to facilitate the process of joining the Community so that we can observe and judge how they handle compliant races, while we meanwhhile make our plans as if we will need to at some point turn very non-compliant quite immediately. We mine the poo poo out of every piece of information we can get our hands on while smiling and nodding until they force a line that we cannot allow them to, and only then do we strike if it cannot be avoided. Outright stalling doesn't just risk further informing the Mind that we are unlikely to be compliant, but there is an opportunity cost to not moving things ahead. We're eating up time that could be spent with the Mind revealing further information as if to a sucker already fallen for the scheme. It is much easier to spy on your friends than your enemies.
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Jul 13, 2014 09:17
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The current tally on UNFRaD's cartography exchange with the MIND vote: UNIN and UNRL vote A, no but revisit later. UNFRAD votes C, full disclosure. UNIEB, UNCAO, UNSA: This is a matter pertaining to the outside context problem. As Whip, I hereby request and require a prompt response to this vote.
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Jul 13, 2014 09:40
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bgreman, please sign me up for an officer with good diplomacy. Gotta get in on this UNFRAD action, diplomacy is really fun for me. Also, didn't the Shard already figure out that we are the people from the planet the Belnar were studying? I mean, he said "You're those guys! I have to tell the boss." So, they know where Sol is and they have a pretty good idea that we are from there. It still seems really pointless to hide that information rather than use it as some sort of bargaining chip. Edit VVV: Valid point, though I'm still with UNFRAD on this one. Samolety fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Jul 13, 2014 |
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Jul 13, 2014 19:14
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Samolety posted:bgreman, please sign me up for a naval officer with good diplomacy. Gotta get in on this UNFRAD action, diplomacy is really fun for me. While this is true, the Shard was also clear that the info they have is 36 Million years old, and with the way Sol has drifted towards the Galactic 'north' the Jump Point network has shifted a lot. They could probably point out the star, but that doesn't mean the jump points match up at all.
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Jul 13, 2014 19:17
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