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Are there any good shows out there with "likable" main characters? I'm looking at my own DVD shelf, with it's Always Sunnys and Dexters, and wondering if anyone really casts likable shows, or writes likable novels, anymore. Like Hannah in the show, who I do NOT see as aspirational, I'm overeducated and underemployed, with well-off parents who are living it up while I jealously watch. And while it's well and good to mock people with that problem, whether you're Adam Corrola bashing Occupy Wall Street or what have you, that doesn't answer the question of what to do NOW. Okay, Gen-Y is boned because we're entitled shits, there's not enough jobs, we've been taught we're too good to work at McDonalds and when we do apply there we get ignored as overqualified. But what do we do about it? The show is is the position to explore that question, and I'm really interested to see what they do with it.
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| # ¿ Apr 17, 2012 04:27 |
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| # ¿ May 25, 2013 10:50 |
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No one says anything about Marnie as a character. The critics complained about Shoshanna being underdrawn, and Hannah and Jessa are very love/hate, but Marnie reminded me the most of people I actually know. There's always someone in the group who has to take care of everyone, and I've filled that role more than once. And damned if I haven't seen so many friends, regardless of ethnicity, location, or sexuality, sabotage "nice" relationships, which is really tragic. Also, I have no idea what Marnie is a diminutive of.
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| # ¿ Apr 17, 2012 07:04 |
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Azure_Horizon posted:The facts about their parentage are true, but "Nepotism" is a bit far to call this show. Yeah, it's pretty par for the course in the entertainment world and always has been (and frankly, it's similar in most careers). As long as the actresses can deliver their lines, there's not much use complaining about it.
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| # ¿ Apr 17, 2012 19:06 |
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No1throwdown posted:Judd Apatow being involved with the show is going to attract any internet nepotism hawk. It's way too easy with him. I wouldn't mind knowing someone who knew Apatow. Throwing that out there for anyone in the loop who may be reading this.
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| # ¿ Apr 17, 2012 23:39 |
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I think that if Lena Dunham waited until she was 40 to play a 25 year-old living off of her parents, why that'd just look silly!
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| # ¿ Apr 18, 2012 17:46 |
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Honestly though, if you really hate the characters and/or the mode of storytelling, that's fine. There are demographics that I wouldn't watch shows about, like... I don't know, otakus or something. I just don't get criticisms based on the facts that 1. She's too young to be writing 2. Not everything onscreen may have happened to her 3. Her mother was a successful photographer of some kind so NEPOTISM Those don't sound like legitimate criticisms, they sound petty.
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| # ¿ Apr 18, 2012 18:09 |
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Thoguh posted:That's not most of the critisism in this thread though. Most people who don't like it are just saying they didn't enjoy watching it. Well I definitely don't agree with the "not worth telling" thing, but if you didn't like it thas coo.
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| # ¿ Apr 18, 2012 19:26 |
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No1throwdown posted:The reason someone so young gets the opportunity to write/act/ect her own HBO show is that she probably knew Apatow already AND convinced him she was talented enough to be successful. Oh yeah that's true, I'm just saying that isn't a reason to say the show is bad. That should be confined to the acting/writing/directing.
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| # ¿ Apr 18, 2012 20:01 |
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There was also Marnie's suggestion toward the end, which was presented as entirely reasonable: Explain to your parents that you tried to do the right thing, you found out you were lied to and screwed over in a way that was not your fault, and present a responsible plan that will hopefully convince them to support you a little while longer, as they clearly have the means. It was Jessa who came in and convinced Hannah to take the seeds of a good plan and screw it up. And I thought the ensuing scene was pretty darn funny.
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| # ¿ Apr 18, 2012 21:09 |
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VivaNova posted:What does it say about me that I immediately thought Hannah was a self-destructive brat and I 100% sympathized with her mom for wanting a lake house?! That line got me thinking, because my visceral reaction was, "Oh God, Hannah's mom, why did you have kids in the first place??" And of course, the answer to that is that all of our parents expected us to actually be grown ups by our mid-twenties like they were. But their world was different. Back when taking out loans for college was a guarantee of getting a decent job fairly quickly, when companies were growing and looking to hire fresh new faces, when education was as important as experience. Which made me think about the Great Depression, the last time things were this bad economy-wise. But then, it wasn't too unusual for extended families to stay in the same area forever and support each other, or even live together. It wasn't until the postwar era that jumping from the nest as fast as possible with no safety net was a common thing. So we have our grandparents' economy, our parents' expectations, and our own "follow your dreams" outlook. And we're hosed. That's why I think the story of the series, beyond being funny and decently-written, is "worth telling." I haven't really seen these issues portrayed in this way, and they're pretty important.
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| # ¿ Apr 18, 2012 21:48 |
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Thoguh posted:I thought they were all terrible characters and when I watched it again with some friends to see if I was just weird they all agreed. Not a single person in the entire episode had anything redeeming about them. The 4 leads are all spoiled brats who were "born on third and think they hit a triple". The boss is illegally taking advantage of her naivety. The parents have enabled Hannah to become the horrible person that she is and then suddenly cut her off with no warning. The "boyfriend" is openly just using her, and their friends are cut from the same mold. I think at this point you just have to admit that you personally are not interested and do not care to watch. Whereas there are quite a few people out there who do find the story interesting, for reasons many of us have posted. That's no fault of yours personally, after all, there's many popular shows I don't find interesting either!
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| # ¿ Apr 19, 2012 16:13 |
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I'm sure Dunham at least knows the world of which she writes. I don't think she's quite to 50 Cent levels of success, where she's so rich and powerful that all her art school friends get to be rich and powerful simply by knowing her.
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| # ¿ Apr 19, 2012 16:52 |
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I'm wondering what Hannah could have done to wowie zowie impress a boss that was, by my interpretation of the scene, lying his rear end off to her the whole two years. To be fair, though, it's not clear exactly what her job was.
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| # ¿ Apr 23, 2012 01:14 |
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Dr.Spaceman posted:She seems to believe that because she showed up for two years she deserves a paying job. That is how it is supposed to work, though. That's the American dream. You work hard, play by the rules, and get rewarded.
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| # ¿ Apr 23, 2012 01:47 |
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Dr.Spaceman posted:Excellent sarcastic comment. I hope. It makes me wonder if there are any tv shows that highlight the changes the greatly (perhaps inflated) increased number of college graduates have changed how young people start professions. Maybe it will be Girls. Well, I'm being sarcastic in the sense that I know the world doesn't work like that, but I'm not sarcastic in the sense that that's what I was raised to believe. So was Hannah, from what I gathered. I could be wrong that the show is going to be about how the millenials will deal with this disconnect, but that's the direction the pilot was pointing. I hope it will.
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| # ¿ Apr 23, 2012 02:05 |
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zoux posted:Biggest laugh for me was "you have this very handsome quality.". I gotta give Lena Dunham props for doing so much self depreciating humor on the show. How many actresses would let someone play with their belly fat on camera, much less write a scene where that happens for themselves? This actually got a decent amount of flak on Jezebel. "How could Hannah not know this? Another reason it is a bad show!" I sure didn't know it until I looked it up after the episode.
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| # ¿ May 1, 2012 02:41 |
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I'm pretty sure a loving "manic pixie dream girl" could work her way into my heart by dancing to Robyn, so Hannah and Marnie are kind of on lock for me now.
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| # ¿ May 1, 2012 03:24 |
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SpaceMost posted:drat this show for endearing itself to me. I appreciate your struggles over the past few weeks. The combination of humor, relatability, and horror is tough to stomach. Also, congrats to the show for its early renewal! 17 more episodes or bust!
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| # ¿ May 1, 2012 03:55 |
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I've known people who seem to skate by like Jessa and look SUPER COOL because of it. What I learned, though, is the ones who are able to keep it up actually do take care of their poo poo behind the scenes. Either that, or they really just don't care and are lucky enough to have things break their way for a while. Jessa doesn't seem to fit either category, so I'd be surprised if she keeps lucking out indefinitely.
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| # ¿ May 4, 2012 15:57 |
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Hannah caved so easily to Adam. I knew she'd cave, but that easily? ARRG. Also, I'm surprised that I'm the only one who doesn't think Charlie is that much of a dick at this point. Airing your grievances in public is never the high road, but I can't even imagine how lovely he must have felt. Marnie's my favorite so far, but I really feel for Charlie too.
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| # ¿ May 8, 2012 23:47 |
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Rexicon1 posted:With that said, I think there is a major issue when one voice comes through with only one message: if that message is mundane and or delivered poorly then the whole show falls apart. I don't mean to put words in to Dunham's mouth, but it seems fairly clear to me that she's trying to present this very particular (and in many cases outlandish and unbelievable) demographic and elucidate how truly awful they all are. It's more complicated than that, which I think is throwing a lot of people. I don't think I'm going to be overstepping too much here, since I've read and watched a few interviews with Dunham. It's not about painting the characters as horrible, but about recognizing the flaws in herself and her peers and inviting the audience to laugh at them. The reason it works is because many of us have those same traits ourselves and can laugh at ourselves, or we know people like those portrayed, or at least we enjoy awkward, slice-of-life-but-somewhat-heightened comedy in general. But it doesn't fit the usual TV way of doing things - there's little to no justification for when the characters do lovely or frustrating things (no, "But Marnie, I feel that Adam fills a masculine role that my father has been unable to, so therefore I will date him for X more episodes until he embarks on a redemption arc). But they're not so cartoonish or alien we can divorce ourselves from reality when watching them (see It's Always Sunny, Archer). So you end up with a portion of the audience who doesn't know how to feel about it, and they don't like not knowing how to feel. On the other hand, I've learned that some people really do see being aimless, indecisive, and freeloading as the ultimate sinful traits. Like, whatever Joffrey is doing on Game of Thrones is NOTHING compared to Hannah's sense of entitlement. We tend to forget that very few values are universal, and that if someone exhibits a value we find abhorrent, we tend to recoil and project rather than try to evaluate it from another perspective. So no, I don't think it comes down to Dunham either writing about "bad" people, or herself being "bad" and hoping to trick the viewer into thinking she's "good."
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| # ¿ May 11, 2012 03:46 |
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ThatCguy posted:I'd be curious to see if Dunham could even write something besides "angsty mid 20's failure", I'm tending to believe she can't. Lena Dunham's Downton Abbey and Lena Dunham: Space Fighter coming soon!
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| # ¿ May 11, 2012 17:13 |
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No guys, you'd seriously tell me if I really was fat... right? 
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| # ¿ May 12, 2012 18:18 |
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I thought this episode was a little less laugh out loud funny than the others, and I'm not sure why that is. Maybe because I wasn't terribly shocked by Adam's scene at the end, which says more about the company I've kept more than anything. At least I was shocked by some of the previous Adam sex. -I'm on board the Shoshanna is awesome train now. -After four weeks of everyone saying that Jessa is a bad-rear end bitch, it was nice seeing her doing something bad-rear end and bitchy rather than bumbling and stupid. -I hope Ron Paul never gets a hold of these episodes, because it turns so many viewers into rabid libertarians.
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| # ¿ May 16, 2012 03:28 |
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That Eileen Jones anti-show article was amazing, if people haven't read it. I get a lot of the backlash, since the show was hyped as being universal in its representation, humor, and appeal, and it's totally not. But the show made a reviewer of an extremely leftist-progressive publication so angry that a sizable number of her criticisms were just body-snarking the actresses. Not even limited to Dunham this time! I love criticism, no sarcasm. I miss film school so much right now.
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| # ¿ May 16, 2012 06:43 |
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Yudo posted:So at film school is calling an actress fat considered illuminating critique? Oh no. It's just that film school is fundamentally absurd. Thoughts I had while attending: "Hetero men are more threatened by gay cowboys than gay interior decorators and I WILL PROVE IT," "If I write a screenplay I will do it with no hero just to spite Joseph Campbell shut up Joseph Campbell," and "FINE, we'll do our final critique on 'Teen Witch' since it means so much to my partner." "Why and how did my elderly, super-political professor go from talking about class and genre to mocking the pretty actress's jawline" would have fit right in.
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| # ¿ May 16, 2012 08:51 |
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No Manners No posted:For people over a certain age (not sure where the line is) I think the show is ridiculous to them. Oh I don't know, my mother loves it. She says it definitely reminds her of her own 20s.
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| # ¿ May 16, 2012 18:14 |
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Actually, I think I just re-watched a male-focused predecessor of Girls. It's called The Graduate and I highly recommend it.
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| # ¿ May 16, 2012 23:17 |
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Wooty posted:You are not contributing to the topic and you don't fully know (or perhaps understand) the plot of The Graduate. I was being a little facetious with my whole "It's called The Graduate" thing, but I don't think the movie has dated poorly at all. At least, the emotional core of the story certainly hasn't, and it is a movie about indecisive, selfish people being sponges and when they finally do decide to take action, they make things worse for everyone. I think it's a worthwhile parallel to look at. zoux posted:God loving Gawker's jihad against this show is so irritating. The gimmick of referring to each character as "so-and-so's daughter" every time is beyond tedious. Oh God, I know, right? Are they able to write about Drew Barrymore without being giant babies? Jamie Lee Curtis? Angelina Jolie? Michael Douglas? Keifer Sutherland? You'd think a loving celebrity gossip website would be used to the idea of showbiz families. And since the hate has spilled over into sister pub Jezebel, I can't help but wonder what the agenda is. At least that Exiled article I was just making fun of came across like an authentic point of view.
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| # ¿ May 17, 2012 02:31 |
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Jezebel has a piece up that's not entirely negative! Yay! http://jezebel.com/5912093/boys-who...k-guy-weighs-in 
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| # ¿ May 27, 2012 08:07 |
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Shageletic posted:I'm more offended by that article than I have ever been by the show. I can't say I blame you.
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| # ¿ May 27, 2012 14:54 |
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I really liked that I was wrong about Adam. Going from thinking he was the worst man I've ever seen on TV to thinking maybe he's an okay guy with a few creepy kinks (although the condom thing is not and will never be cool) was a punch in the gut. I love it. Poor Marnie. I was kind of a Marnie in college, in that I ended up being the group mom, and everyone acted like it was what they wanted, but the harder I tried to "help" the more I was just a shrewish bitchy scold. I hope she learns to loosen up a little. I can't believe Elijah slapped her!
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| # ¿ May 31, 2012 00:04 |
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JayMax posted:Did he really slap her? It looked like he theatre-slapped her. I just looked it up, and according to the actor, he didn't connect. I can't honestly say I remember how it looked, and I couldn't find the .gif of it I so want. My mind was just blown that they went there at all.
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| # ¿ May 31, 2012 08:01 |
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Finally caught up.SpaceMost posted:I wasn't sure what to think about the apartment scene. Were we supposed to laugh at how ridiculous the guy was? Because I just felt extremely uncomfortable. And also bad for the guy. And bad for Marnie & Jessa. If it was intentional, it was brilliant. The frothy mixture of hatred and envy. The way his own entitlement worked, that by working x number of hours, he should be able to lay claim to everything the more privileged have, even their bodies. The question of how different he really was than the other characters despite his claimed work ethic, with his strange mixtapes and his ME ME ME emotional display. The scene was still a little off for me because I'd think at least Marnie would be afraid of O'Dowd getting violent. I know I would be. I did like how Jessa pulled the plug when Marnie's silly rear end was going to keep sitting there.
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| # ¿ Jun 7, 2012 21:50 |
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SagatPunisherFanFic posted:You can't say Adam has emotional problems, Watch me. Punching people's cars is bad no matter how self-centered your girlfriend is! Also his being an okay guy doesn't erase the creepy eleven-year-old hooker fantasies.
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| # ¿ Jun 8, 2012 18:26 |
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That was a bit sobering.
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| # ¿ Jun 11, 2012 02:58 |
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I think they were both in the wrong in the fight. Hannah's money issues are bad enough, but going so far as to literally state she doesn't care about Marnie's feelings is too far for me. That was disappointing, even for Hannah. I mean, how much of that fight could have been avoided if she just asked how Marnie was doing once in a while? On the other hand, Marnie probably should have told Hannah why she was angry rather than being so passive-aggressive and refusing Hannah's overtures. It makes me sad because I tuned in for a show about close friendship, and I hated to see that. Not that she show is bad now or anything, I still laughed a couple of times during the argument, and it would be ridiculous to document a friendship like that without covering the lows as well as the highs.
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| # ¿ Jun 12, 2012 00:03 |
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According to Dunham's last HBO insider video, it turns out that Shoshanna was never meant to be a lead! It just happened because she was so great. So that explains the lack of Shosh, and hopefully they're working on it for next season.
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| # ¿ Jun 25, 2012 23:49 |
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Trig Discipline posted:I wouldn't be surprised if that was true as Adam as well. For some reason his character and chemistry with Hannah strike me as more of a happy accident than a planned thing. I have no evidence whatsoever to support this, but I'm going to continue pretending that it's true. I don't have a link because I've read so, so much about this show, but I swear Dunham did say that. The original plan was to have a revolving door of boyfriends, but Adam was just too impressive. I remember watching the first four episodes and cursing Dunham for it, and then realizing in episode 7 that I was so, so wrong.
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| # ¿ Jun 26, 2012 02:12 |
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| # ¿ May 25, 2013 10:50 |
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Propaganda Machine posted:Right, but they don't really seem to get punished, either. Heck, they're kind of in better places than where they started. Hannah gets the apartment, a job, and a roommate she knows very well. Jessa gets somebody who's going to take care of her (I think, actually, she probably gets married because the gravy train is coming to a halt). Marnie and Shosh might actually even be progressing as people. Point is, it does indicate a certain justification of their lifestyles; there are no substantial moments of poo poo hitting the fan. Older post, but my god, how much more do they need to suffer?? Poor girls. I think Hannah's meltdown in front of her pervy boss counts as a terrible terrible poo poo hitting the fan moment too.
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| # ¿ Dec 26, 2012 03:35 |
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