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Ashmole
Oct 5, 2008

It won't open.

I saw this on military.com, I thought that this forum would find it interesting considering past discussions on the role of women in the military:
http://www.military.com/news/articl...m_todayinmil.nl

quote:

WASHINGTON -- The Marine Corps will soon allow women to attend its school for infantry officers, as part of a larger effort to determine how to expand the role of women in the Corps.
Gen. Joseph Dunford, assistant commandant of the Marine Corps, told the Marine Corps Times on Wednesday that the service is in the process of soliciting volunteers to attend the Infantry Officer Course in Quantico, Va.
All Marine infantry officers attend the 10-week course after completing The Basic School. Dunford and other Marine officials have not said what the next steps will be for women who volunteer to attend the school.

The Marine Corps is expected to release a service-wide message soon about expanding career and training opportunities for women. The message will include information about women attending IOC.
The Corps earlier this year requested that Congress approve an exception to policy that would allow female company-grade officers and female staff noncommissioned officers who already hold certain military occupational specialties, such as communications, to be assigned to about 400 corresponding jobs with ground combat element units at the battalion level. The units include artillery, tanks, amphibious assault, low-altitude air defense, combat assault and combat engineers, but not infantry units.
Women will be considered for those positions starting in May.
Dunford also said there is a plan to evaluate male and female Marines against new physical fitness standards that are being developed. The information from all the new initiatives will be incorporated into a report later this year from the Corps to Defense Secretary Leon Panetta.


So I told a bunch of dudes this and their reaction was unanimously negative. One guy kept throwing out the "women need to shower or else their vaginas rot" "fact" and the others were more pissed at how combat arms would no longer be a non-eo haven. I haven't been in combat and I'm still in training as a combat arms officer, so I can't really speak from experience.

What are your opinions on this? Do you think there should be co-ed units or gender-segregated ones?

EDIT: needed to indicate that the aforementioned "fact" is sarcastic.

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Chewbacca Defense
Sep 6, 2009

High speed, low drag.


I think a lot of people here would agree with me when I say that I don't have a problem with it as long as they're held to the male standards.

Booblord Zagats
Oct 30, 2011

Bump Patrol! Tyrone needs a Shave Chit!
Bump Patrol! Tyrone needs a Shave Chit!
Bump Patrol! Tyrone needs a Shave Chit!

If you can lead Marines you can lead Marines, doesn't matter if you've got an innie or an outtie.

gleep gloop
Aug 16, 2005

GROSS SHIT

I'm actually surprised that the corps is the first to do this. If the women are just as capable as men I don't see any problems whatsoever. Precursor to female grunts? Maybe.

Nillerz
Jun 24, 2008

Nillerz posted:

Why don't I eat veggies? I don't look at them as *food*, in the classical sense.
AM I POSTING ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE STUPID, WEAK AND WORTHLESS? REMIND ME THAT I AM AN INFANTILE MANCHILD WHO REFUSES TO EAT VEGETABLES


I hope this doesn't infiltrate the Army. If you have women in the Infantry, great, you now have a million more issues than you had before. First, physically speaking, no woman has ever been held to the same PT requirements as men. Even if they were, it would be a paperwork fudge, I guarantee it, at least for most the women. If you don't believe me, look at the paperwork fudges that already exist for fatbodies. Most women can't even pass the female PT test, how would they pass a male PT test? I'm sure there would be a few who could, but this would be an overall minority. Most men in the infantry can't pick up a big dude and either fireman or hawes carry them to a CCP when they have full kit on, most, if not all, women wouldn't be able to even drag them.

I've seen support company women during lovely ranges, by the way. The first ones to bitch about the lack of sleep that is required by a night-fire is always the women, and that's why we rush support companies through first if we're running the range. This really just screws us over on sleep, and I can imagine if there were any significant amount of women in the infantry, then night-fires in general will be a joke.

Then there are the EO complaints, those would be ridiculous. Infantrymen in general don't have a penchant for being polite, throw a bunch of women in there and holy poo poo it'd be anarchy. We already have massive problems with sexual harassment and assault in the pog jobs, I would love to say I trust soldiers to do the right thing but there is no way in hell that integrating women into infantry units will ever be smooth.

It's just one giant bad idea.

BITCHTITS
Oct 22, 2003

Perry'd


Chewbacca Defense posted:

I think a lot of people here would agree with me when I say that I don't have a problem with it as long as they're held to the male standards.

Too bad we both know they will not be.

iyaayas01
Feb 19, 2010

Perry'd


Chewbacca Defense posted:

I think a lot of people here would agree with me when I say that I don't have a problem with it as long as they're held to the male standards.

A longer article from the Marine Corps Times indicated that they were looking at doing a "gender-neutral" test that was going to be combat focused, I'm assuming something like the CFT they do now. IMHO this is how it should be, because I understand that due to physiological differences it is unfair to judge men and women on the same standard when it comes to push-ups or pull-ups or running in running shoes, shorts, and a t-shirt...but there needs to be a standard directly related to what you are required to do in combat/to perform your job, and everyone needs to meet it.

gleep gloop
Aug 16, 2005

GROSS SHIT

Most of those issues were brought up when women were first allowed in the military. Are there issues nowadays? Yes unfortunetely there are, but on the whole It's worked out just fine. If the women can't keep up then those specific women shouldn't be allowed to do these jobs then, It's that simple.

As for your EO point, that was a huge issue back when segregation was given the boot. We will just have to adapt if we feel that way, and ensure our soldiers do the same. If we can't be racist and misogynist in the professional and civilian world we can't be in the military.

I was combat arms in an all male unit with single digit female attachments both my deployments. We adapted, and all did our jobs.

Armyman25
Sep 6, 2005


Nillerz posted:

I hope this doesn't infiltrate the Army. If you have women in the Infantry, great, you now have a million more issues than you had before. First, physically speaking, no woman has ever been held to the same PT requirements as men. Even if they were, it would be a paperwork fudge, I guarantee it, at least for most the women. If you don't believe me, look at the paperwork fudges that already exist for fatbodies. Most women can't even pass the female PT test, how would they pass a male PT test? I'm sure there would be a few who could, but this would be an overall minority. Most men in the infantry can't pick up a big dude and either fireman or hawes carry them to a CCP when they have full kit on, most, if not all, women wouldn't be able to even drag them.

I've seen support company women during lovely ranges, by the way. The first ones to bitch about the lack of sleep that is required by a night-fire is always the women, and that's why we rush support companies through first if we're running the range. This really just screws us over on sleep, and I can imagine if there were any significant amount of women in the infantry, then night-fires in general will be a joke.

Then there are the EO complaints, those would be ridiculous. Infantrymen in general don't have a penchant for being polite, throw a bunch of women in there and holy poo poo it'd be anarchy. We already have massive problems with sexual harassment and assault in the pog jobs, I would love to say I trust soldiers to do the right thing but there is no way in hell that integrating women into infantry units will ever be smooth.

It's just one giant bad idea.

Afraid they'll laugh at your fat rear end and your 4" dick?

Nillerz
Jun 24, 2008

Nillerz posted:

Why don't I eat veggies? I don't look at them as *food*, in the classical sense.
AM I POSTING ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE STUPID, WEAK AND WORTHLESS? REMIND ME THAT I AM AN INFANTILE MANCHILD WHO REFUSES TO EAT VEGETABLES


If it comes down to it, I'm going to keep our relations strictly professional and polite because an EO complaint can ruin your career.

Victor Vermis
Dec 21, 2004

The 'eathen in'is blindness bows down to wood an' stone

'E don't obey no orders unless they is'is own.


gleep glop posted:

As for your EO point, that was a huge issue back when segregation was given the boot. We will just have to adapt if we feel that way, and ensure our soldiers do the same. If we can't be racist and misogynist in the professional and civilian world we can't be in the military.

This is a good point, the black guy in my Battalion seemed to get along really well- he probably told more n*gger jokes than the rest of us combined! Real sport, that black guy.

The infantry will stop being full of goony fucks just as soon as the marketing department finds a way to convince minorities and women that it's super cool to get all ubermensch'd-out and gently caress poo poo up for Uncle Sam.

Armyman25
Sep 6, 2005


Nillerz posted:

If it comes down to it, I'm going to keep our relations strictly professional and polite because an EO complaint can ruin your career.

Why wouldn't you do that anyway?

Cole
Nov 24, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


The infantry is a good ol' boys club. This will cause more harm than good in the short term and possibly the medium (?) term. Most of your male infantry soldiers (me included) will not like taking orders from a woman in combat. It isn't necessarily that they can't do the job. poo poo, my platoon sergeant on my last deployment couldn't do the loving job. I've seen female combat medics in support units that couldn't drag a casualty 10 feet. I don't feel comfortable putting my life in the hands of a 5'3", 105lb woman when I weigh roughly 225lbs in gear.

On the ground we have fought wars, for the most part, the same way for so many years and for the most part it has been effective. I think military doctrine should be one of those things that is 100% protected by the old saying that if it isn't broke, then don't fix it.

And yes, EO will be a problem (one of the short term issues). EO is already a problem in infantry units. Female pizza delivery chicks aren't allowed in one of my brigade's barracks. During my deployment we had a three person female engagement team and our 1SG prohibited us from even talking to them. It will break unit cohesion up for a while.

If this gets implemented will it be the end of our military? No, probably not. Will it be a very bumpy road? Absolutely. Is it worth it? I don't think so.

bees everywhere
Nov 18, 2002



Anyone ever hear about that Israeli Defense Force study where they compared effectiveness between different combat arms units? I wish I could find the reference but I remember all-male and all-female infantry units were found to be nearly identical in terms of discipline, efficiency, and ability to fulfill the maneuver role, whereas integrated units were at almost half efficiency and had severe issues with discipline.

smertrioslol
Apr 4, 2010


iyaayas01 posted:

A longer article from the Marine Corps Times indicated that they were looking at doing a "gender-neutral" test that was going to be combat focused, I'm assuming something like the CFT they do now. IMHO this is how it should be, because I understand that due to physiological differences it is unfair to judge men and women on the same standard when it comes to push-ups or pull-ups or running in running shoes, shorts, and a t-shirt...but there needs to be a standard directly related to what you are required to do in combat/to perform your job, and everyone needs to meet it.

I don't see a problem with this as long as said gender-neutral test gets put into place. Women in the military add their share of problems, but no more than if they were in infantry as long as they can meet the standards put forth. Meeting those standards (assuming they're actually make loving sense) will make it so that a very small minority of the female population are actually qualified for these jobs....which will probably bring about EO complaints.

Mizkif posted:

Anyone ever hear about that Israeli Defense Force study where they compared effectiveness between different combat arms units? I wish I could find the reference but I remember all-male and all-female infantry units were found to be nearly identical in terms of discipline, efficiency, and ability to fulfill the maneuver role, whereas integrated units were at almost half efficiency and had severe issues with discipline.

All female units would probably alleviate a significant number of concerns. How long have the Israelis had females in their infantry? Maybe we should ask them what's up?

DEVILDOGOOORAH
Aug 2, 2010

~Animu fan~


I'm down, it's about time and progress. More meatshield for me anyhow.


edit: what I predict: crusty E7s undermining young female 2LTs to a level of ineffectiveness yet to be achieved in the history of our military

Jaysus
Sep 16, 2004

"Hey, did you see my game against the Detroit Lions?"

DEVILDOGOOORAH posted:

I'm down, it's about time and progress. More meatshield for me anyhow.


edit: what I predict: crusty E7s undermining young female 2LTs to a level of ineffectiveness yet to be achieved in the history of our military

More of a meat curtain, really.

DEVILDOGOOORAH
Aug 2, 2010

~Animu fan~


Jaysus posted:

More of a meat curtain, really.

I was seriously tempted but in deference of our lady friendly rules I decided not to be a HUGE CHAUVINIST PIG like AC Slater was

iyaayas01
Feb 19, 2010

Perry'd


Cole posted:

Most of your male infantry soldiers (me included) will not like taking orders from a woman in combat.

Seriously?

e: I'm not doubting that most infantry soldiers won't like this, because most infantry soldiers are apparently neanderthal raping machines. I'm just amused that you would admit this openly about yourself.

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005

I'd fuck on the first date but truckers usually just want their salads tossed

Also



The navy has been leading the way for a while WRT gender integration and they seem to be approaching it the right way. Start at the top and work your way down. In 10 years or so you'll see regular women infantry. I'd say that's a good thing.

Armyman25
Sep 6, 2005


1940's

Cole posted:

The infantry is a good ol' boys club. This will cause more harm than good in the short term and possibly the medium (?) term. Most of your male white infantry soldiers (me included) will not like taking orders from a woman black man in combat.

Nillerz
Jun 24, 2008

Nillerz posted:

Why don't I eat veggies? I don't look at them as *food*, in the classical sense.
AM I POSTING ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE STUPID, WEAK AND WORTHLESS? REMIND ME THAT I AM AN INFANTILE MANCHILD WHO REFUSES TO EAT VEGETABLES


Armyman25 posted:

Why wouldn't you do that anyway?

because I'm in the army.

Armyman25
Sep 6, 2005


Nillerz posted:

because I'm in the army.

How bout this, you just don't make fun of people's race, gender, religion, or orientation and just bag on them for being fat, little dicked idiots?

Nillerz
Jun 24, 2008

Nillerz posted:

Why don't I eat veggies? I don't look at them as *food*, in the classical sense.
AM I POSTING ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE STUPID, WEAK AND WORTHLESS? REMIND ME THAT I AM AN INFANTILE MANCHILD WHO REFUSES TO EAT VEGETABLES


I would like a show of hands, who in this thread is in the infantry? I think that has a lot to do with it.

Nillerz
Jun 24, 2008

Nillerz posted:

Why don't I eat veggies? I don't look at them as *food*, in the classical sense.
AM I POSTING ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE STUPID, WEAK AND WORTHLESS? REMIND ME THAT I AM AN INFANTILE MANCHILD WHO REFUSES TO EAT VEGETABLES


Armyman25 posted:

That's your excuse for being an rear end in a top hat?

Who said anything about being an rear end in a top hat? I'm not generally polite/professional in my everyday tasks because that is how one behaves in an infantry unit. If you wanted to be polite and professional about everything, join JAG, or Finance, or something like that. The infantry is brash and loud and rude and I like it like that.

Armyman25
Sep 6, 2005


Nillerz posted:

I would like a show of hands, who in this thread is in the infantry? I think that has a lot to do with it.

Yeah, the Infantry consistently shows it can't follow orders or act in a professional, military manner.

DEVILDOGOOORAH
Aug 2, 2010

~Animu fan~


As ex-combat arms (and I'm glad it's an Ex) I honestly don't buy it as an excuse to be complete trolls. It's just 90% 18-22 year old white trash kids and amazingly enough they don't know how to act like reasonable adults and some how its supposed to be endearing because of their ASVAB score was low enough that their best option was 11b.

Nillerz
Jun 24, 2008

Nillerz posted:

Why don't I eat veggies? I don't look at them as *food*, in the classical sense.
AM I POSTING ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE STUPID, WEAK AND WORTHLESS? REMIND ME THAT I AM AN INFANTILE MANCHILD WHO REFUSES TO EAT VEGETABLES


Armyman25 posted:

Yeah, the Infantry consistently shows it can't follow orders or act in a professional, military manner.

We *ARE* the military, everyone else is deviating off of our lead. Before whatever job you had existed, there was the infantry. The infantry is the first part of any military that has ever existed. Who said anything about failure to follow orders?

EDIT I'm not saying that when you join the infantry you have to start smacking people when they use a drinking fountain, or kicking people while they piss, but christ, don't be a pussy, that's the important part.

DEVILDOGOOORAH
Aug 2, 2010

~Animu fan~


Nillerz posted:

We *ARE* the military, everyone else is deviating off of our lead. Before whatever job you had existed, there was the infantry. The infantry is the first part of any military that has ever existed. Who said anything about failure to follow orders?

Part of your orders are to follow the orders of the officers appointed over you... it isnt gender specific, and following EO compliant regulations....so why are you "going to have to start now" since you've apparently been leading from the front for so long

Cole
Nov 24, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


DEVILDOGOOORAH posted:

As ex-combat arms (and I'm glad it's an Ex) I honestly don't buy it as an excuse to be complete trolls. It's just 90% 18-22 year old white trash kids and amazingly enough they don't know how to act like reasonable adults and some how its supposed to be endearing because of their ASVAB score was low enough that their best option was 11b.

They're kids. They get brought in and continue to get treated like kids. Leaders coddle lower enlisted these days so they really have no reason to grow up anymore.

Nillerz
Jun 24, 2008

Nillerz posted:

Why don't I eat veggies? I don't look at them as *food*, in the classical sense.
AM I POSTING ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE STUPID, WEAK AND WORTHLESS? REMIND ME THAT I AM AN INFANTILE MANCHILD WHO REFUSES TO EAT VEGETABLES


DEVILDOGOOORAH posted:

Part of your orders are to follow the orders of the officers appointed over you... it isnt gender specific.

Who said anything about disobeying orders of whomever is above you?

GD_American
Jul 21, 2004

SCHWÄRTZESTES HERZ
IN ALEMANIA


DEVILDOGOOORAH posted:

I'm down, it's about time and progress. More meatshield for me anyhow.


edit: what I predict: crusty E7s undermining young female 2LTs to a level of ineffectiveness yet to be achieved in the history of our military

yeah for a few years this is gonna be pretty ugly

DEVILDOGOOORAH
Aug 2, 2010

~Animu fan~


Nillerz posted:

Who said anything about disobeying orders of whomever is above you?

Sorry that was the other guy... I edited in the EO part for you

Cole
Nov 24, 2004
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


DEVILDOGOOORAH posted:

Sorry that was the other guy..

I'm not sure but I'm assuming you're talking about me. If you're not just let me know. I never said I wouldn't follow the orders of a woman appointed over me, I just said I don't like the idea of it. I also didn't like the idea of taking any orders from my platoon sergeant during OEF 10-11 because after he got his CIB he never went outside the wire because he, as he even put it, wasn't going to get shot at if he didn't have to.

I guess it's mostly because I've seen women get treated a lot more nicely than men in the military in regards to.. well, everything. Their standards just aren't as high. If they hold them to the same standards as men I'll probably get on board with it.

Steezo
Jun 16, 2003
Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

GD_American posted:

yeah for a few years this is gonna be pretty ugly

Only if they aren't held to the same grooming standards. Make them get the same high and stupid haircut and shave their mustaches.

DEVILDOGOOORAH
Aug 2, 2010

~Animu fan~


Cole posted:

I'm not sure but I'm assuming you're talking about me. If you're not just let me know. I never said I wouldn't follow the orders of a woman appointed over me, I just said I don't like the idea of it. I also didn't like the idea of taking any orders from my platoon sergeant during OEF 10-11 because after he got his CIB he never went outside the wire because he, as he even put it, wasn't going to get shot at if he didn't have to.

I guess it's mostly because I've seen women get treated a lot more nicely than men in the military in regards to.. well, everything. Their standards just aren't as high. If they hold them to the same standards as men I'll probably get on board with it.

That's cool and maybe I was being defensive to your post. I've actually had the same argument with my wife of all people about womens equality and "same standards" was pretty much my argument, and that "push ups/situps" probably isn't the best test. So I apologize for implicating you unfairly.

However whenever I go to a school or anything with combat arms soldiers attending, one of the most common things I hear is "I don't know how to deal with female officers/NCOs/soldiers" and it just strikes me as a common theme. Maybe not overtly DISOBEYING orders, but just not taking them very seriously as Soldiers.

HOWEVER, do I believe that a lot of women do their gender a disservice in the military (or at least the Army?) Roger.

How can we fix it? I don't loving know. I'm just tired of the attitude that women are intrinsically incapable of filling these roles? Absolutely not, and history will show that they are very capable.

DEVILDOGOOORAH
Aug 2, 2010

~Animu fan~


Steezo posted:

and shave their mustaches.

Thats legitimately a rule but no one has the balls to say it.

Nillerz
Jun 24, 2008

Nillerz posted:

Why don't I eat veggies? I don't look at them as *food*, in the classical sense.
AM I POSTING ABOUT HOW WOMEN ARE STUPID, WEAK AND WORTHLESS? REMIND ME THAT I AM AN INFANTILE MANCHILD WHO REFUSES TO EAT VEGETABLES


Take this as you will, but I remember my company having an especially nasty reaction to the FET teams that were attached to us during NTC. I haven't heard any clean stories resulting.

iyaayas01
Feb 19, 2010

Perry'd


Nillerz posted:

Who said anything about being an rear end in a top hat? I'm not generally polite/professional in my everyday tasks because that is how one behaves in an infantry unit. If you wanted to be polite and professional about everything, join JAG, or Finance, or something like that. The infantry is brash and loud and rude and I like it like that.

This is a load of poo poo. Being AF maintenance, I have a full appreciation for a "non-professional" work environment. I swear pretty much every sentence, get told to shut the gently caress up on a regular basis, and make fun of everyone about everything. Shockingly, I've managed to do this even when working around women, because it is possible to have a "non-professional" work environment without instantly getting EO called on you...it just requires you to treat women as human beings as opposed to being HURR WORTHLESS DICK RECEPTACLES loving WORTHLESS FEMALES CAN'T DO ANYTHING RIGHT GOOD FOR NOTHING AMIRITE GUYS HURR

So basically what I'm saying is that you are a pretty terrible person if you honestly believe the two options for a work environment are prim and proper and no fun at all or NO GURLS ALLOWED because them drat womens will ruin everything.

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elite_garbage_man
Apr 3, 2010


ELITE PENS FOR AN ELITE GARBAGE MAN

SKILCRAFT
QUALITY BLIND MADE PRODUCTS

we shall see how it works out

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