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So, uh, is survivability really a huge issue as people claim later on or what? I'm in Hardcore mode and rather terrified one mistake will cost me. 
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| # ? May 17, 2012 15:08 |
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| # ? May 20, 2013 07:23 |
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If you aren't using the caltrops(w/ cull the weak) + fan of knives + vault (with arrows) + spam ball lightning you need to learn2play. Gotta have that skill that gives you hatred with orbs. Sick, sick build. Can't wait to throw cluster arrow into it.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 15:10 |
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I was switching back and forth between monk and DH for the last two nights and I was getting ready to put the DH down permanently until I unlocked Bolas and chackram. It really is amazing how having a proper area effect ability makes it easier to keep big crowds of enemies at bay. Demon Hunter really is kind of a slow burner class that takes a while to come onto its own compared to something like a monk that is teleport-aoe-explosion-punching dudes by level 5-6. Can't wait to see what DHs can do once they get to the point where swaths of their skills are also creating rockets/grenades in addition to their other effects.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 15:15 |
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Azmodan was an absolute joke. Dual chakrams, frost arrow, shatter shot, and bat companion. I got him maybe once because I wasn't expecting the fireball to curve. My bow only had ~70dps, but it was a crazy short fight. Nothing like Belial.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 15:16 |
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Is there ever a point where Twin Chakrams is NOT what I wan't to be using? I've swapped it out a few times just because I feel like I'm cheating.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 15:25 |
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Doctor_Acula posted:Is there ever a point where Twin Chakrams is NOT what I wan't to be using? I've swapped it out a few times just because I feel like I'm cheating. Elemental Arrow w/ Ball Lightning imo is wayyyyy better. It follows a straight path and decimates everything. Chakrams have the stupid circly pattern.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 15:29 |
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Cobra Commander posted:Elemental Arrow w/ Ball Lightning imo is wayyyyy better. It follows a straight path and decimates everything. Chakrams have the stupid circly pattern. Bat Companion is insane. It's basically infinite hatred for the purposes of Dual Chakrams and Frost Arrow. I'd probably still have problems if I was using Multishot, even with Fire at Will, but I'm not so yeah.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 15:30 |
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Cobra Commander posted:Elemental Arrow w/ Ball Lightning imo is wayyyyy better. It follows a straight path and decimates everything. Chakrams have the stupid circly pattern. True, but if you fire like 4 or 5 of them, they can wipe a room. Plus, with them only costing 10 Hatred, they're practically spammable nonstop.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 15:31 |
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Instead of Vault try the smoke screen with the 60% move speed after use passive and the second rune. You cover the same distance except you're invincible the entire time.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 16:30 |
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Voxx posted:I ran this type of set up through act 2 normal and it was peaches. Slowing enemies and keeping them bunched as they got loaded with bolas was way too effective. Machine gun for single targets and knife fan for oh poo poo moments. I had around 200 damage toward the end of act 2, and was decimating everything I ran into. Feels good man. Been using pretty much this as well and I have to say its a gently caress ton of fun. Whats the general consensus on dual crossbows vs bow and quiver? I bought a full set of yellow gear including dual crossbows which was MILES beyond what I had found. I maybe spent less than 5k. I would def recommend checking that out. Just pick what item you want, specify rarity and levels then search for items with 1000 buyout then go up if you don't find what you want. You'll be pleasantly surprised how much cool gear you can buy for < 1000 gold. You can buy all new poo poo every 10 levels or so and really not be spending much money at least early on (I'm in my late 20s).
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| # ? May 17, 2012 16:35 |
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What's better? Fan of knives or Evasive attack?Veev posted:Instead of Vault try the smoke screen with the 60% move speed after use passive and the second rune. You cover the same distance except you're invincible the entire time. Good replacement for vault and allows companion at the same time.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 16:37 |
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I've probably spent at least 100,000 gold on my blacksmith and it is so not worth it. I dropped 15,000 on a bow that jacked my DPS up a ton. As a bonus, it has arcane damage so things die in purple puddles. Having the blacksmith will probably come in handy later, but I really feel like leveling it is a waste on your first character.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 16:40 |
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Vault is not exclusive to a companion, as long as you have Elective Mode on. And yeah, ignore your crafters your first time through. Just buy whatever you need from the AH, with the hundreds of thousands of gold you save by not leveling them up at all. I'm level 54 now, in Act 2 Hell, and things hit so ridiculously hard.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 16:42 |
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Reposting this from the general thread:quote:I've seen it repeated a lot of places that dual wield is useless (read: provides no innate DPS gain) if there is greater than a 15% discrepancy in weapon DPS. That math is kinda faulty. The true point of no gain is somewhere around 26% discrepancy between main-hand and off-hand DPS.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 16:42 |
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So apparently the jagged spikes rune for caltrops stacks, meaning you can lay a bunch of caltrops on top of each other for a big damaging aoe snare.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 16:56 |
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Elysiume posted:I've probably spent at least 100,000 gold on my blacksmith and it is so not worth it. I dropped 15,000 on a bow that jacked my DPS up a ton. As a bonus, it has arcane damage so things die in purple puddles. The blacksmith is more of an investment in the long run for any fresh characters. Its alright to level him two three times per act if you've got gold sitting around. I think I had like 400 dex and less than 1800 health when I beat normal mode since I didn't bother to upgrade my gear enough.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 16:58 |
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poptart_fairy posted:So, uh, is survivability really a huge issue as people claim later on or what? I'm in Hardcore mode and rather terrified one mistake will cost me. Smokescreen with the rune to extend duration to 3 seconds is an absolute must in hardcore. With only a little +max discipline gear it's almost 9 straight seconds of invulnerability, which you can double with Preparation. It's also a stealth/aggro dump, an ok travel power with the Tactical Advantage passive, and breaks almost all CC in the game. On normal you can justify taking Vault instead to get around faster, but I can't imagine a hardcore Demon Hunter without Smokescreen. Also consider +life on hit on both weapons, it works fairly well for DH, if you are using things like chakrams, lightning arrow, rapid fire, and whatnot. breaks fucked around with this message at May 17, 2012 around 17:15 |
| # ? May 17, 2012 17:13 |
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Elysiume posted:I've probably spent at least 100,000 gold on my blacksmith and it is so not worth it. I dropped 15,000 on a bow that jacked my DPS up a ton. As a bonus, it has arcane damage so things die in purple puddles. Wait, so this is probably a really stupid question... but does your Blacksmith stay leveled when you play a new character? It's tied to your account? I'm still on my first DH; can't bring myself to change since I'm loving the crap out of it.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 17:15 |
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Posted this on the general thread but I figured I'd post it here as well (general thread got no responses): Ok, so I'm wondering a few things that hopefully you guys can help me out with here: I play a DH, and I'm still not sure about how I should be gearing up my character. What stats should I be MOST looking for and what stats should I be LEAST looking for? While leveling up (16, start of A2) should I be trying to get a lot of +exp on my stuff? The stuff I've been looking at seems to only give about +10 exp per kill (x about 4 or so items). Each monster seems to be giving about 1000 or so exp per kill, so 50 additional exp per kill really doesn't seem like all that much of a bonus at all. Should I instead be looking to dump the +exp for +stat or +something_else? Additionally, my DPS is somewhat low (I think in the mid 70s for lvl 16? I may be wrong - I'd have to check). Should I be dual-wielding or using a 2h bow or what? Additionally, which follower do you recommend? I haven't gotten the enchantress to be hire-able myself, but I've been using the templar until the scoundrel gets some sweet damage bonuses (I haven't even really looked at the enchantress). Also re:blacksmithing: How much should I go for leveling up that? I'm almost done the very first tier of blacksmithing...so I believe I'm kinda behind here, but I think I'm doing the whole "gold" thing wrong (buying gear in-game...when I should probably just be buying it from the AH if anything). Any ideas? For skills - I'm currently running this setup: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculat...r#WZUdc!b!aZ.aa Again, I'm at 16, so am I on the right path or should I probably be focusing on using some other/different skills that I just don't know how good they are yet? Roil fucked around with this message at May 17, 2012 around 17:24 |
| # ? May 17, 2012 17:18 |
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eXpired posted:Wait, so this is probably a really stupid question... but does your Blacksmith stay leveled when you play a new character? It's tied to your account? I'm still on my first DH; can't bring myself to change since I'm loving the crap out of it. Yes, it is for all of your characters across your account, just like your stash and shared gold is as well.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 17:18 |
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poptart_fairy posted:So, uh, is survivability really a huge issue as people claim later on or what? I'm in Hardcore mode and rather terrified one mistake will cost me. Act 2 introduces a lot of monsters that can leap, phase, or toss poo poo that is very damaging at you. Act 3 is that but much more so. Basically it's impossible to not get hit a few times against some mobs. I would suggest grabbing as much vitality on your gear as possible.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 17:22 |
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Roil posted:Posted this on the general thread but I figured I'd post it here as well (general thread got no responses): I'll answer your questions in order: You can check the details menu in your inventory to see which stats are affected by which attributed. For a demon hunter, the most importance will be dexterity (DPS) and vitality (health). You shouldn't go searching for the +exp stats; go for +life on kill, +dexterity, +vitality, or +attack speed. You will see earlier in this thread that dual-wielding only constitutes a benefit in DPS if your off-hand is at least 74% of the DPS of your main-hand weapon. Even then, it is not guaranteed to outweigh the benefits of a 1h or 2h weapon with a quiver. I found a rare quiver, so I haven't dual-wielded much. Blacksmithing should only be bought into on your first character if you have spare gold. If you need to upgrade your equipment, it seems to be more cost-effective to check the auction house. The only item I have crafted ~50k or more gold later is a rare helmet that didn't even get very good stats.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 17:28 |
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Synathaesia posted:I'll answer your questions in order: Awesome, thanks - I've been matching my DPS on mh/oh (AH makes this pretty easy), so I guess I'm in the clear then. Thanks for the help!
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| # ? May 17, 2012 17:32 |
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Synathaesia posted:Reposting this from the general thread: I did some playing around in Excel, and it does indeed look like 74% of main hand DPS is the break-even point for dual wielding increasing DPS compared to the main hand weapon alone. But, when I add in a comparison to a quiver (which has +10% IAS or better on all the ones I've found, as well as +dex or if you are truly baller +dmg), the dps case for dual wielding starts to look worse. And in later difficulties, you may want to pack a shield instead of a DPS source in your off-hand (on that note, how much does armor help a DH? I feel squishy even with a shield). edit: you mentioned all this already, so for content: your offhand weapon having 92% of main hand DPS is the break even point for dual wielding to gain benefits over a 10% IAS quiver that does not otherwise increase your damage. melon farmer fucked around with this message at May 17, 2012 around 17:44 |
| # ? May 17, 2012 17:42 |
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Armor benefits all classes the same. And all classes should have roughly the same armor before skills/passives since they use the same gear, just with different stats on them.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 17:43 |
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I don't think I will replace my quiver with a shield anytime soon. I am still only in normal, and I haven't run into many issues with being squishy yet. Traps, running fast, and having a templar trying to tank have kept me relatively safe.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 17:52 |
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So then for skills: For skills - I'm currently running this setup: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculat...r#WZUdc!b!aZ.aa Again, I'm at 16, so am I on the right path or should I probably be focusing on using some other/different skills that I just don't know how good they are yet? Are there some skills that you guys think are great that only kicks in once you get a specific rune or coupled with another skill? I'm still figuring out the best synergies, and granted at 16 I really don't have a lot of info to play around with yet, but still. Roil fucked around with this message at May 17, 2012 around 18:26 |
| # ? May 17, 2012 18:01 |
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Roil posted:So then for skills: your link is busted for me It's been said a lot in this thread but once you get the rune for Twin Chakrams you can just clear screens of enemies at a time, it is great and costs almost no hatred.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 18:05 |
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So I understand it correctly: If I'm consistently buying crossbows with the same relative DPS...I should keep dual wielding? I don't really understand how the DPS on the bows get calculated. Obviously they don't stack, so I'm assuming that every other shot basically tacked with that particular hands weapon. If I pick up a bow that is more DPS than either of my crossbows then that is better?? What about the attributes on the crossbows. I think having two weapons with a list of attribute is better than one and a quiver or are they pretty comparable (I haven't really looked into quivers yet) Maybe numbers would help: I dual wield two rare xbows One is 52.7 dps and the other is 48.8 I assume that the game has calculated that with the rubies I have socketed in them in mind. If I got a bow that does 53 dps...that's better? Assuming there isn't a dex change or something would affect overall DPS? EDIT: Before I got AH shopping and such...with a 2h xbow you can still slot a quiver right? I can't remember...it would only make sense that way Other question I have is: Is the the Damage value listed on my character screen DPS? I suppose just going by that would simplify all this if so. I just wasn't sure.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 18:12 |
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DMBFan23 posted:your link is busted for me Crap, weird, http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculat...r#WZUdc!b!aZ.aa That should work now. Basically: LMB: Bola + Volatile RMB: Impale + Chemical 1: Grenades 2: Vault + Action shot 3: Rapid fire + Withering fire Passive: Vengeance. Roil fucked around with this message at May 17, 2012 around 18:19 |
| # ? May 17, 2012 18:16 |
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If I understand correctly, if you dual wield crossbows you alternate firing them at a rate that is 15% faster than normal firing. So if you have two of the exact same Hand Crossbow, it would be the same thing as if you had one had one crossbow firing at 1.15 times the rate of the original. Now, the benefit of using a 2H is that you can use a Quiver obviously which gives you 10% (Although now I've seen 11%, I don't know what it goes up to) extra attack speed from the quiver. This is why sometimes equipping a quiver with a 1H Crossbow can increase your DPS, because you're not alternating firing anymore (so half your shots aren't the lower damage of your offhand) and now you're just doing flat your main hand + attack speed bonus from the quiver. As for if you have crossbows with different DPS, its whether the 15% bonus + using a lower DPS off hand is better than just flat 10% better.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 18:16 |
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Shachi posted:So I understand it correctly: If the formulas previously stated here are correct, than your dual wield is effectively 58.36 dps. If you run a single weapon that is greater than 58.36, then use that.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 18:17 |
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Shachi posted:So I understand it correctly: DPS while dual wielding is calculated as the average DPS of the two weapons multiplied by a 15% attack speed bonus. In your example, your actual DPS would be: 1.15*[(52.7+48.8)/2] = 58.4 DPS Therefore, a single weapon with 58.4 DPS would match the dual-wield setup. However, taking into account the DPS benefits of a quiver (e.g. 10% attack speed) that you gain with a single weapon, the 58.4 DPS while dual-wielding could be matched by a single weapon of 53.1 DPS with a quiver. With a 2H weapon, you still get a slot for a quiver.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 18:18 |
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poptart_fairy posted:So, uh, is survivability really a huge issue as people claim later on or what? I'm in Hardcore mode and rather terrified one mistake will cost me. Yes. WH durability is mobility based. The second you run into creatures that can counter that you start taking a lot of damage. And there are a ton of creatures that can counter it.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 18:19 |
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Roil posted:So then for skills: It probably depends if you're playing with someone else but I liked bolas and impale around where you're at. Bolas for crowds, and impale for beefier mobs and for one-shotting stray mobs. I didn't like single chakrams or grenades or entangling shot so much until they get better runes. Keep in mind you should be experimenting with different skills and abilities as you go along.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 18:20 |
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Synathaesia posted:DPS while dual wielding is calculated as the average DPS of the two weapons multiplied by a 15% attack speed bonus. In your example, your actual DPS would be: Awesome thanks a bunch. Now I understand it....maybe. gently caress math.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 18:23 |
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Shachi posted:Awesome thanks a bunch. Now I understand it....maybe. gently caress math. You just have to know that the possible benefits for a dual-wielding setup are limited to 15% above the DPS of the weapon with higher DPS. The maximum possible benefits for a setup using a single bow and a quiver are limited by how awesome of a quiver you can find. Any quiver will provide a 10% bonus (equivalent to having an off-hand weapon having 82% the DPS of the main-hand) before taking into account its other benefits. There is no ubiquitous "better" setup. It depends on what items are available. Luckily, D3 does most of the math for you - it will tell you when you compare items whether it constitutes a gain in DPS or other stats.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 18:28 |
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Perhaps a bit more of a clear explanation of dual wielding would be helpful. Consider, if both of your 2 hand weapons have the same attack speed, and you alternate attacking between main and offhand. Then your dps after shooting both is the average of the two. If the attack speed of one is different than the other, than you'd have to do a weighted average. As stated though, the game gives you a 15% increase to attack speed for dual wielding. Thus, your average dps is increased by 15% as you attack that much faster. Let me walk through it. Your bows main hand: 50 damage with an attack speed of 1.4 attacks per second, giving you an effective main hand DPS of 70. off hand: 40 damage with an attack speed of 1.4 attacks per second, giving you an effective off hand DPS of 56. Now, the idea of alternating works in, as you fire the first shot with your main hand, then the next shot with your off hand, then back to your main, off, main, etc. This means that on average, your DPS would be ( 70 + 56 ) / 2, or 63. Now, you ask, holy crap, 63 dps is less than 70 dps with just the main hand. And you would be right. But now we add in the attack speed bonus for a DH using dual weapons. 63 * 1.15 = 72.45. So, even though you're using a weaker offhand, the sum of their parts plus the bonus, is greater than the single. If you had equal weapons of 70dps, then your effective dual wield dps is 80.5. What people tried to explain earlier, is that their is a bottom to just how weak your offhand is, before it would be better to not use it, and just fire the single main hand. This comes out to be when the offhand is around 73% or less the dps of the mainhand. So, if the main hand dps was 70, and your off hand dps is 51 or less, then don't use the offhand. But if your off hand is 52 or above, then use the offhand. killingtime fucked around with this message at May 17, 2012 around 18:35 |
| # ? May 17, 2012 18:32 |
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Damage 101 When you dual wield you alternate shots between the two weapons. So if weapon A has a fire effect and weapon B has an ice effect hits will alternate between hot and cold. Each shot applies the effects, damage, and delay associated with the particular weapon. Furthermore because you are dual wielding the delay is reduced by 15%. What does this mean? Well to calculate DPS you have to take the average of the two weapons and multiply it by 1.15 (115%). Based on the math of our good friend Synathaesia we know that if the DPS of the second weapon is less than 74% of the first you will not get an increase in overall damage. But this doesn't take into account the presence of the quiver, which makes the primary weapon more effective and requires the second to be within 92% of the first. The attribute changes shown underneath each weapon (green is good, red is bad) are particularly helpful. If you hit ALT when mousing over a weapon it will show what happens if you put it in your off hand. Now Demon Hunters are fun because they also get access to quivers, which give a straight 10% bonus to attack speed and can be used with 2H weapons like crossbows and bows. Crossbows also tend to have higher minimum damage values, which reduces variability and is something to keep in mind. That said you will rarely find a crossbow which has a higher DPS than a handbow because of one other item that's the Daemon Hunter's best friend; Rings and Amulets of Wounding. Wounding items gives a straight +damage bonus, and obviously benefit weapons with faster attack rates. Rubies also do this which is why rubies are awesome. In contrast +Dex items only give you a percent increase to your damage, which is nice but typically not nearly as beneficial. So the bottom line is this: 1) Dual wielding is only beneficial if the second weapon has at least 2) To maximize damage your priority should be raw damage increases, either on the weapon itself with rubies or with rings and amulets. After that dexterity will give you a straight increase in percentage. 3) You can use crossbows and shortbows with a quiver, but the higher attack rate of hand crossbows synergizes VERY well with Wounding rings and amulets and typically makes them better choices. Beer4TheBeerGod fucked around with this message at May 17, 2012 around 18:56 |
| # ? May 17, 2012 18:34 |
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| # ? May 20, 2013 07:23 |
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I've found the flat 10% crit handbows get from archery too good not to use because of it's synergy with other skills anyway.
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| # ? May 17, 2012 18:41 |
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