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tools and equipment posted:What the gently caress is up with the dude's thumb?  He must be double-jointed or something
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 15:40 |
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| # ? Jun 19, 2013 11:11 |
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C'mon guys we can completely trust the public to respect due process, and to treat the accusers with the respect and understanding they're entitled to, right?
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 15:44 |
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actionjackson posted:
All the better to... no nevermind. 
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 15:44 |
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Nastyman posted:I thought the french legal system worked on a presumption of guilt as well. If that's correct then
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 15:44 |
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tools and equipment posted:All the better to... no nevermind. you're terrible! I don't think there's any way that PSU students could be impartial, one way or another. ----------------
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 15:46 |
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Thats why I don't understand the judges decision to deny the motion for change of venue. How can anyone in that community be impartial. Either they're a massive tosser and support ol Jerry because of his "legendary" football coaching prowess or (more likely) they loving despise him even more than most people for what he did to that community above and beyond what he did to the boys. They should have moved that poo poo to Philly or at least Harrisburg or something.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 15:50 |
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A Pale Horse posted:Really? GBS is rabidly anti-pedo, who the gently caress would defend Polanski or France for shielding him? There were a lot of people defending him in the GBS thread on the subject, but yeah, they were far from the majority.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 15:52 |
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King Dopplepopolos posted:There were a lot of people defending him in the GBS thread on the subject, but yeah, they were far from the majority. Hell, Whoopi got in hot water for saying it wasn't "surprise sex surprise sex". For the record, it was NOT just statutory surprise sex. He drugged a 13 year old and had anal sex with her against her will.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 15:55 |
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A Pale Horse posted:Thats why I don't understand the judges decision to deny the motion for change of venue. How can anyone in that community be impartial. Either they're a massive tosser and support ol Jerry because of his "legendary" football coaching prowess or (more likely) they loving despise him even more than most people for what he did to that community above and beyond what he did to the boys. They should have moved that poo poo to Philly or at least Harrisburg or something. The media coverage was state wide and even nation wide. The same alleged issues with a Centre County jury with regard to pretrial publicity would exist in any other venue in the state. Plus, in general, it is unfair to allow the prosecution to forum shop for a venue where prosecution would be easier. quote:The mandate for a fair and impartial jury does not require that the prospective jurors be free of all knowledge of the facts and circumstances surrounding the incident which forms the basis of the trial."It is not required, however, that [***6] the jurors be totally ignorant of the facts and issues involved. In these days of swift, widespread and diverse methods of communication, an important case can be expected to arouse the interest of the public in the vicinity, and scarcely any of those best qualified to serve as jurors will not have formed some impression or opinion as to the merits of the case. This is particularly true in criminal cases. To hold that the mere existence of any preconceived notion as to the guilt or innocence of an accused, without more, is sufficient to rebut the presumption of a prospective juror's impartiality would be to establish an impossible standard. It is sufficient if the juror can lay aside his impression or opinion and render a verdict based on the evidence presented in court." Id. at 722-23, 81 S.Ct. at 1642.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 16:05 |
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euphronius posted:The media coverage was state wide and even nation wide. The same alleged issues with a Centre County jury with regard to pretrial publicity would exist in any other venue in the state. You can't escape the media coverage, true, but the rain of poo poo that came down on Happy Valley as a result of what Sandusky did is unique to the area. When people think about that area now all they think about is "rhythmic slapping" and anal shower surprise sex, if I was a local I'd be monstrously pissed off just about that.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 16:08 |
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A Pale Horse posted:You can't escape the media coverage, true, but the rain of poo poo that came down on Happy Valley as a result of what Sandusky did is unique to the area. When people think about that area now all they think about is "rhythmic slapping" and anal shower surprise sex, if I was a local I'd be monstrously pissed off just about that. Those issues, if they exist, can be discovered in voir dire.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 16:10 |
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euphronius posted:Those issues, if they exist, can be discovered in voir dire. Fair enough, I'm not a lawyer so that's just my layman's opinion. edit: maybe I overstated it a bit, GBS isn't bloodthirsty like yahoo comments or anything, but its still firmly anti pedo and not exactly quick to give the benefit of the doubt to pedos and their supporters. VVVVV
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 16:10 |
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A Pale Horse posted:Really? GBS is rabidly anti-pedo, who the gently caress would defend Polanski or France for shielding him? When was GBS ever rabidly anti-pedo? Most of the posts I've seen about the subject are sanctimonious about being overly judgmental towards pedophiles or personal armchair-psychology preconceptions about them.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 16:12 |
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^ being a paedophile is usually the result of being abused themselves, or having a mental illness. it's never an excuse, because ultimately you are in control of your own actions, but it's an explanation.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 16:17 |
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The Snoo posted:^ being a paedophile is usually the result of being abused themselves, or having a mental illness. it's never an excuse, because ultimately you are in control of your own actions, but it's an explanation. People are the product of their biology, social and environmental experience. While people no doubt play a large role in their actions, 'Buck stopping responsibility for your own actions' simply isn't real- you don't wake up one day and randomly decide, 'hey, it would be great to diddle children'. You have a lifetime of experiences which lead to it including, as you said, being abused. Much of this is out of the perpetrators control. They ultimately need sympathy, compassion, and lots of treatment. Anything short stigmatizes a group that desperately needs help, and ultimately endangers future would-be victims by driving pedophiles away from treatment rather than encouraging them to seek it out.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 16:28 |
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PT6A posted:For people who are saying that America isn't unique is its deification of sport, I'd like to see what you say about the Graham James case. He was a junior hockey coach up here in Canada who, much like Sandusky, had a bad habit of raping his players, some of whom went on to become famous NHLers. The difference is, when he was found out, I don't think there was a single voice supporting him, and in fact the entire country was so disgusted by his actions that our national broadcaster chased him down in Mexico after he fled the country (after serving his sentence), and the outrage that he was allowed to leave the country has provided support for the movement to change our pardons system. Most recently, another victim came forward in court, and he's serving another 2 year sentence. It isn't like there's been a groundswell of support for either Sandusky or Paterno. One of college sport's most beloved icons saw his reputation put to utter ruin before he died. And he's the one it's easy to make lame excuses for.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 16:37 |
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There has never been any link that being abused leads one to pedophilia. In fact I'm sure most victims of child abuse would be offended at the implication that they're likely to abuse children themselves.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 16:46 |
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Kit Walker posted:There has never been any link that being abused leads one to pedophilia. In fact I'm sure most victims of child abuse would be offended at the implication that they're likely to abuse children themselves. you're silly. quote:13. Possible Etiologies Experiencing Child Abuse 28-93% of Pedophiles claim being abused as children Can be emotional, physical or sexual Victim to abuser cycle or abused to abuser phenomena View themselves as the aggressor Transference of emotions http://www.slideshare.net/MyCounsel...d-to-pedophilia also google it. it definitely can be a factor. haven't you ever heard of it called a vicious cycle before? I was sexually abused and the person who abused me was abused himself. ----------------
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 16:51 |
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AKA Pseudonym posted:It isn't like there's been a groundswell of support for either Sandusky or Paterno. One of college sport's most beloved icons saw his reputation put to utter ruin before he died. And he's the one it's easy to make lame excuses for. A huge portion of the Pennsylvania population is rabidly in support of Paterno. Exhibit A: A poll found 46% of Pennsylvanians support renaming Beaver Stadium to Paterno Stadium. Exhibit B. http://deadspin.com/joey-welz/
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 16:58 |
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The Snoo posted:you're silly. Pedophiles always have martyr complexes and play the victim card when they've been caught. Any such statistics are based on self reporting and you'll pardon me if I don't exactly believe them when they try to justify and minimize their crimes by claiming they couldn't help it and they only raped kids because they were abused themselves.  I mean, I'm sure some of them were abused, but 93% is a ludicrous statistic. It also doesn't take into consideration that most of people who have been sexually abused don't become abusers themselves so its not a direct correlation between abuse=abuser.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 17:00 |
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Well, yeah, it should go without saying that most people who are abused do not go on to become abusers themselves, but I don't see why it's unreasonable to suggest that those who do abuse children are likely to have been abused in the past. Again, it's not an excuse, but it's an explanation.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 17:03 |
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tools and equipment posted:A huge portion of the Pennsylvania population is rabidly in support of Paterno. Exhibit A: A poll found 46% of Pennsylvanians support renaming Beaver Stadium to Paterno Stadium. That's disappointing, but it doesn't really compare to junior hockey coach few people had an emotional connection to and did the molesting himself.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 17:14 |
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AKA Pseudonym posted:That's disappointing, but it doesn't really compare to junior hockey coach few people had an emotional connection to and did the molesting himself. Well, presumably the people who supported that hockey team had something of a connection with the coach. Why does Paterno have this mystical connection to his fans more than any other coach?
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 17:16 |
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Kit Walker posted:In fact I'm sure most victims of child abuse would be offended at the implication that they're likely to abuse children themselves. Fortunately that's not the way logic works. Cycle-abusers may do so largely because of their victim-histories, but that is not the same as saying that most victims will become cycle-abusers.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 17:17 |
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PT6A posted:Well, yeah, it should go without saying that most people who are abused do not go on to become abusers themselves, The problem is its not said enough and its stigmatizing to victims because people hear "abused become abusers" and see victims of sexual abuse (especially boys) as someone suspicious and to watch carefully now. There isn't any nuance when people parrot that line over and over so its become as a sort of truism in society that abused boys become abusers themselves, which counter productively makes less boys and men want to come forward and report their abuse. As to the alarmingly high self reported rates of abuse among pedophiles, its collected by necessity only from pedophiles who have been caught and likely prosecuted and they have a vested interest in mitigating their level of culpability by playing the victim and trying to lessen their own responsibility. Its relying on self reporting from unreliable reporters.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 17:17 |
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PT6A posted:Well, presumably the people who supported that hockey team had something of a connection with the coach. Why does Paterno have this mystical connection to his fans more than any other coach? Because he was there for like 50 years and basically built the university from an irrelevant cow college into a powerful and rich institution. He did this through the football program and through fundraising and personal donations.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 17:19 |
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A Pale Horse posted:The problem is its not said enough and its stigmatizing to victims because people hear "abused become abusers" and see victims of sexual abuse (especially boys) as someone suspicious and to watch carefully now. There isn't any nuance when people parrot that line over and over so its become as a sort of truism in society that abused boys become abusers themselves, which counter productively makes less boys and men want to come forward and report their abuse. I've literally heard people say "it's a shame that that battered woman is sure to beat her hypothetical kids." What it comes down to is that people are pretty dumb.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 17:25 |
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I never said ALL sexual abuse victims go onto be abusers themselves. I'm not an abuser. my mother isn't, either, and she was abused as well. note I said 'usually the result of being abused themselves, or having a mental illness' ----------------
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 17:28 |
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A Pale Horse posted:Pedophiles always have martyr complexes and play the victim card when they've been caught. Any such statistics are based on self reporting and you'll pardon me if I don't exactly believe them when they try to justify and minimize their crimes by claiming they couldn't help it and they only raped kids because they were abused themselves. Did it ever occur to you that being abused may play a large part in normalizing said paedophillic behaviour? And since humans learn mostly from modelling and imitating behaviour, do you not see how it would be common for paedophiles to have been abused themselves? To say that paedophiles often were abused themselves is hardly a controversial claim, and I think you're doing a disservice to the issue by writing it off as a martyr complex. That attitude does not help, and your entire first paragraph is part of the reason why paedophiles hide and eventually act out rather than seek treatment. I do agree with what you said in the next post, about suspecting the abused to abuse further exacerbating the problem. It increases the culture of normalization towards abused becoming abusers.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 18:28 |
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The Snoo posted:I never said ALL sexual abuse victims go onto be abusers themselves. I'm not an abuser. my mother isn't, either, and she was abused as well.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 19:25 |
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A Pale Horse posted:France is currently shielding a very well known convicted child rapist from his just punishment just because he makes pretty good movies, so I'm not so sure about your conclusion. Huh. I didn't know that film-making was a sport.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 20:05 |
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Rap posted:yeah but you do have an etsy. Agreed
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 20:12 |
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From looking at the selected jury and all of the alternates, it looks like a hung jury is the prosecution's best bet. I don't see how Jerry will ever get convicted of anything with 9 of the jurors having strong ties to the school and three of them with ties to witnesses. http://onwardstate.com/2012/06/06/j...monday-morning/
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 20:52 |
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A Pale Horse posted:France is currently shielding a very well known convicted child rapist from his just punishment just because he makes pretty good movies, so I'm not so sure about your conclusion. I think they have a policy against letting any of their citizens spending any amount of time in US prisons, no matter their crime. I thought I remember reading somewhere that some countries consider US prisons way too bad, to allow criminals to be there, or something. If I'm wrong sorry, but I thought it was France in particular that this originated from! I guess it's because he's really rich.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 21:04 |
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Poizen Jam posted:Did it ever occur to you that being abused may play a large part in normalizing said paedophillic behaviour? And since humans learn mostly from modelling and imitating behaviour, do you not see how it would be common for paedophiles to have been abused themselves? To say that paedophiles often were abused themselves is hardly a controversial claim, and I think you're doing a disservice to the issue by writing it off as a martyr complex. That attitude does not help, and your entire first paragraph is part of the reason why paedophiles hide and eventually act out rather than seek treatment. There's an important distinction between the term "child abuser" and the term "pedophile". You equating the two is definitely not going to encourage pedophiles to seek treatment.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 21:07 |
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Nonsense posted:I think they have a policy against letting any of their citizens spending any amount of time in US prisons, no matter their crime. I thought I remember reading somewhere that some countries consider US prisons way too bad, to allow criminals to be there, or something. If I'm wrong sorry, but I thought it was France in particular that this originated from! I guess it's because he's really rich. France has no such policy. It does have an extradition agreement with the US that allows it to refuse extradition of its own citizens and they initially refused to extradite Polanski because of his stature as an artist. These days the French government seems to be more keen on extradition and the French public has overwhelmingly supported his extradition for quite a while. But he lives in Switzerland now which almost extradited him but decided not to for whatever reason.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 21:23 |
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Get caught having a whizz in the public, get put on the sexual offender list, be a persona non grata living under a bridge for the rest of your days. (If you're not given a life sentence for failing to register an address you don't have.) surprise sex children, and hordes of people will stand up in your support and vilify your victims, and you'll probably get off scott free on top.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 21:29 |
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Bugsy posted:From looking at the selected jury and all of the alternates, it looks like a hung jury is the prosecution's best bet. I don't see how Jerry will ever get convicted of anything with 9 of the jurors having strong ties to the school and three of them with ties to witnesses. Honestly I'm surprised more of the jurors don't have direct ties to Penn State. I don't think it will work on in Sandusky's favor regardless, because he's pretty much considered to be pure-strain evil by even the most adamant of PSU athletics supporters. It's a very, very small group that overlooks what he did.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 21:43 |
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AKA Pseudonym posted:France has no such policy. It does have an extradition agreement with the US that allows it to refuse extradition of its own citizens and they initially refused to extradite Polanski because of his stature as an artist. These days the French government seems to be more keen on extradition and the French public has overwhelmingly supported his extradition for quite a while. But he lives in Switzerland now which almost extradited him but decided not to for whatever reason. Ok, thank you for correcting me, I knew it sounded shaky, but it's just what my dumb brain had scattered and tried to re-paste together the reasoning for him not being extradited. Although yeah, he's clearly running away, and probably will run from Switzerland if he gets told by a little bird that the Swiss government will send him to America.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 22:32 |
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| # ? Jun 19, 2013 11:11 |
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Related to the earlier discussion about the cult of football in US high schools and colleges, there was a heartbreaking piece on Longreads today about a University of Memphis football player named Dasmine Cathey. quote:Colleges channel players into all sorts of less-rigorous tracks, some of which require little classroom attendance. One of the popular paths for Memphis athletes—including Mr. Cathey and nearly a third of his football teammates—is an online program designed for working adults and students looking to build their own degrees. http://chronicle.com/article/The-Ed...Dasmine/132065/ He didn't make the cut to the NFL and now is facing the world unprepared and with an essentially worthless college degree (and presumably student loan debt from getting it.) Doc files of his college writing projects are linked in the article and they're jawdropping; Dasmine Cathey was almost completely uneducated and illiterate after twelve years of public school and four years of college. He couldn't even spell the degree he graduated with. And apparently no one gave a much of a drat as long as he could run a fast 40. 
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 22:48 |
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