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actionjackson
Jan 12, 2003

100% plastic

tools and equipment posted:

What the gently caress is up with the dude's thumb?

Also, do you think he wrote his love letters on the same custom stationary? I hope so.





He must be double-jointed or something

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5er
Jun 1, 2000



C'mon guys we can completely trust the public to respect due process, and to treat the accusers with the respect and understanding they're entitled to, right?

tools and equipment
Feb 12, 2005



actionjackson posted:

He must be double-jointed or something

All the better to... no nevermind.

Leon Einstein
Feb 6, 2012
I must win every thread in GBS. I don't care how much banal semantic quibbling and shitty posts it takes.

Nastyman posted:

I thought the french legal system worked on a presumption of guilt as well. If that's correct then
He was convicted in the United States. He's talking about Roman Polanski.

The Snoo
Jul 5, 2007

by Y Kant Ozma Post


tools and equipment posted:

All the better to... no nevermind.

you're terrible!

I don't think there's any way that PSU students could be impartial, one way or another.

----------------
This thread brought to you by a tremendous dickhead!

A Pale Horse
Jul 29, 2007

Show those chumps in Atlanta and Philly what real hatred is.


Thats why I don't understand the judges decision to deny the motion for change of venue. How can anyone in that community be impartial. Either they're a massive tosser and support ol Jerry because of his "legendary" football coaching prowess or (more likely) they loving despise him even more than most people for what he did to that community above and beyond what he did to the boys. They should have moved that poo poo to Philly or at least Harrisburg or something.

King Dopplepopolos
Aug 3, 2007

Give us a raise, loser!

A Pale Horse posted:

Really? GBS is rabidly anti-pedo, who the gently caress would defend Polanski or France for shielding him?

There were a lot of people defending him in the GBS thread on the subject, but yeah, they were far from the majority.

Leon Einstein
Feb 6, 2012
I must win every thread in GBS. I don't care how much banal semantic quibbling and shitty posts it takes.

King Dopplepopolos posted:

There were a lot of people defending him in the GBS thread on the subject, but yeah, they were far from the majority.
I remember that Judakel was the most rabid defender, but I can't remember what excuses he gave. I think it was mostly "Well, Chinatown was really good."

Hell, Whoopi got in hot water for saying it wasn't "surprise sex surprise sex". For the record, it was NOT just statutory surprise sex. He drugged a 13 year old and had anal sex with her against her will.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009



A Pale Horse posted:

Thats why I don't understand the judges decision to deny the motion for change of venue. How can anyone in that community be impartial. Either they're a massive tosser and support ol Jerry because of his "legendary" football coaching prowess or (more likely) they loving despise him even more than most people for what he did to that community above and beyond what he did to the boys. They should have moved that poo poo to Philly or at least Harrisburg or something.

The media coverage was state wide and even nation wide. The same alleged issues with a Centre County jury with regard to pretrial publicity would exist in any other venue in the state.

Plus, in general, it is unfair to allow the prosecution to forum shop for a venue where prosecution would be easier.

quote:

The mandate for a fair and impartial jury does not require that the prospective jurors be free of all knowledge of the facts and circumstances surrounding the incident which forms the basis of the trial."It is not required, however, that [***6] the jurors be totally ignorant of the facts and issues involved. In these days of swift, widespread and diverse methods of communication, an important case can be expected to arouse the interest of the public in the vicinity, and scarcely any of those best qualified to serve as jurors will not have formed some impression or opinion as to the merits of the case. This is particularly true in criminal cases. To hold that the mere existence of any preconceived notion as to the guilt or innocence of an accused, without more, is sufficient to rebut the presumption of a prospective juror's impartiality would be to establish an impossible standard. It is sufficient if the juror can lay aside his impression or opinion and render a verdict based on the evidence presented in court." Id. at 722-23, 81 S.Ct. at 1642.

Commonwealth v. Hoss, 364 A.2d 1335, 1338 (Pa. 1976)

A Pale Horse
Jul 29, 2007

Show those chumps in Atlanta and Philly what real hatred is.


euphronius posted:

The media coverage was state wide and even nation wide. The same alleged issues with a Centre County jury with regard to pretrial publicity would exist in any other venue in the state.

Plus, in general, it is unfair to allow the prosecution to forum shop for a venue where prosecution would be easier.

You can't escape the media coverage, true, but the rain of poo poo that came down on Happy Valley as a result of what Sandusky did is unique to the area. When people think about that area now all they think about is "rhythmic slapping" and anal shower surprise sex, if I was a local I'd be monstrously pissed off just about that.

euphronius
Feb 18, 2009



A Pale Horse posted:

You can't escape the media coverage, true, but the rain of poo poo that came down on Happy Valley as a result of what Sandusky did is unique to the area. When people think about that area now all they think about is "rhythmic slapping" and anal shower surprise sex, if I was a local I'd be monstrously pissed off just about that.

Those issues, if they exist, can be discovered in voir dire.

A Pale Horse
Jul 29, 2007

Show those chumps in Atlanta and Philly what real hatred is.


euphronius posted:

Those issues, if they exist, can be discovered in voir dire.

Fair enough, I'm not a lawyer so that's just my layman's opinion.

edit: maybe I overstated it a bit, GBS isn't bloodthirsty like yahoo comments or anything, but its still firmly anti pedo and not exactly quick to give the benefit of the doubt to pedos and their supporters.
VVVVV

kreayshawns talent
Jan 13, 2012

by Y Kant Ozma Post


A Pale Horse posted:

Really? GBS is rabidly anti-pedo, who the gently caress would defend Polanski or France for shielding him?

When was GBS ever rabidly anti-pedo? Most of the posts I've seen about the subject are sanctimonious about being overly judgmental towards pedophiles or personal armchair-psychology preconceptions about them.

The Snoo
Jul 5, 2007

by Y Kant Ozma Post


^ being a paedophile is usually the result of being abused themselves, or having a mental illness. it's never an excuse, because ultimately you are in control of your own actions, but it's an explanation.

----------------
This thread brought to you by a tremendous dickhead!

Poizen Jam
Dec 2, 2006

Poi, Zen, Jam.


The Snoo posted:

^ being a paedophile is usually the result of being abused themselves, or having a mental illness. it's never an excuse, because ultimately you are in control of your own actions, but it's an explanation.

People are the product of their biology, social and environmental experience. While people no doubt play a large role in their actions, 'Buck stopping responsibility for your own actions' simply isn't real- you don't wake up one day and randomly decide, 'hey, it would be great to diddle children'. You have a lifetime of experiences which lead to it including, as you said, being abused. Much of this is out of the perpetrators control.

They ultimately need sympathy, compassion, and lots of treatment. Anything short stigmatizes a group that desperately needs help, and ultimately endangers future would-be victims by driving pedophiles away from treatment rather than encouraging them to seek it out.

AKA Pseudonym
May 16, 2004

A dashing and sophisticated young man

PT6A posted:

For people who are saying that America isn't unique is its deification of sport, I'd like to see what you say about the Graham James case. He was a junior hockey coach up here in Canada who, much like Sandusky, had a bad habit of raping his players, some of whom went on to become famous NHLers. The difference is, when he was found out, I don't think there was a single voice supporting him, and in fact the entire country was so disgusted by his actions that our national broadcaster chased him down in Mexico after he fled the country (after serving his sentence), and the outrage that he was allowed to leave the country has provided support for the movement to change our pardons system. Most recently, another victim came forward in court, and he's serving another 2 year sentence.

I think this case would be the same in Europe/South America with soccer, in Japan with baseball; it's only in America where success at sports can, in some people's minds, excuse covering up pedophilia.

It isn't like there's been a groundswell of support for either Sandusky or Paterno. One of college sport's most beloved icons saw his reputation put to utter ruin before he died. And he's the one it's easy to make lame excuses for.

Kit Walker
Jul 10, 2010
"The Man Who Cannot Deadlift"

There has never been any link that being abused leads one to pedophilia. In fact I'm sure most victims of child abuse would be offended at the implication that they're likely to abuse children themselves.

The Snoo
Jul 5, 2007

by Y Kant Ozma Post


Kit Walker posted:

There has never been any link that being abused leads one to pedophilia. In fact I'm sure most victims of child abuse would be offended at the implication that they're likely to abuse children themselves.

you're silly.

quote:

13. Possible Etiologies Experiencing Child Abuse 28-93% of Pedophiles claim being abused as children Can be emotional, physical or sexual Victim to abuser cycle or abused to abuser phenomena View themselves as the aggressor Transference of emotions

http://www.slideshare.net/MyCounsel...d-to-pedophilia

also google it.

it definitely can be a factor. haven't you ever heard of it called a vicious cycle before? I was sexually abused and the person who abused me was abused himself.

----------------
This thread brought to you by a tremendous dickhead!

tools and equipment
Feb 12, 2005



AKA Pseudonym posted:

It isn't like there's been a groundswell of support for either Sandusky or Paterno. One of college sport's most beloved icons saw his reputation put to utter ruin before he died. And he's the one it's easy to make lame excuses for.

A huge portion of the Pennsylvania population is rabidly in support of Paterno. Exhibit A: A poll found 46% of Pennsylvanians support renaming Beaver Stadium to Paterno Stadium.

Exhibit B. http://deadspin.com/joey-welz/

A Pale Horse
Jul 29, 2007

Show those chumps in Atlanta and Philly what real hatred is.


The Snoo posted:

you're silly.


http://www.slideshare.net/MyCounsel...d-to-pedophilia

also google it.

it definitely can be a factor. haven't you ever heard of it called a vicious cycle before? I was sexually abused and the person who abused me was abused himself.

Pedophiles always have martyr complexes and play the victim card when they've been caught. Any such statistics are based on self reporting and you'll pardon me if I don't exactly believe them when they try to justify and minimize their crimes by claiming they couldn't help it and they only raped kids because they were abused themselves.

I mean, I'm sure some of them were abused, but 93% is a ludicrous statistic. It also doesn't take into consideration that most of people who have been sexually abused don't become abusers themselves so its not a direct correlation between abuse=abuser.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006



Well, yeah, it should go without saying that most people who are abused do not go on to become abusers themselves, but I don't see why it's unreasonable to suggest that those who do abuse children are likely to have been abused in the past. Again, it's not an excuse, but it's an explanation.

AKA Pseudonym
May 16, 2004

A dashing and sophisticated young man

tools and equipment posted:

A huge portion of the Pennsylvania population is rabidly in support of Paterno. Exhibit A: A poll found 46% of Pennsylvanians support renaming Beaver Stadium to Paterno Stadium.

Exhibit B. http://deadspin.com/joey-welz/

That's disappointing, but it doesn't really compare to junior hockey coach few people had an emotional connection to and did the molesting himself.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006



AKA Pseudonym posted:

That's disappointing, but it doesn't really compare to junior hockey coach few people had an emotional connection to and did the molesting himself.

Well, presumably the people who supported that hockey team had something of a connection with the coach. Why does Paterno have this mystical connection to his fans more than any other coach?

mdemone
Mar 14, 2001

Virginia Tech loves Nirvana, we'd love to have her in our video

Kit Walker posted:

In fact I'm sure most victims of child abuse would be offended at the implication that they're likely to abuse children themselves.

Fortunately that's not the way logic works. Cycle-abusers may do so largely because of their victim-histories, but that is not the same as saying that most victims will become cycle-abusers.

A Pale Horse
Jul 29, 2007

Show those chumps in Atlanta and Philly what real hatred is.


PT6A posted:

Well, yeah, it should go without saying that most people who are abused do not go on to become abusers themselves,

The problem is its not said enough and its stigmatizing to victims because people hear "abused become abusers" and see victims of sexual abuse (especially boys) as someone suspicious and to watch carefully now. There isn't any nuance when people parrot that line over and over so its become as a sort of truism in society that abused boys become abusers themselves, which counter productively makes less boys and men want to come forward and report their abuse.

As to the alarmingly high self reported rates of abuse among pedophiles, its collected by necessity only from pedophiles who have been caught and likely prosecuted and they have a vested interest in mitigating their level of culpability by playing the victim and trying to lessen their own responsibility. Its relying on self reporting from unreliable reporters.

A Pale Horse
Jul 29, 2007

Show those chumps in Atlanta and Philly what real hatred is.


PT6A posted:

Well, presumably the people who supported that hockey team had something of a connection with the coach. Why does Paterno have this mystical connection to his fans more than any other coach?

Because he was there for like 50 years and basically built the university from an irrelevant cow college into a powerful and rich institution. He did this through the football program and through fundraising and personal donations.

betaraywil
Dec 30, 2006

Gather the wind
Though the wind won't help you fly at all

A Pale Horse posted:

The problem is its not said enough and its stigmatizing to victims because people hear "abused become abusers" and see victims of sexual abuse (especially boys) as someone suspicious and to watch carefully now. There isn't any nuance when people parrot that line over and over so its become as a sort of truism in society that abused boys become abusers themselves, which counter productively makes less boys and men want to come forward and report their abuse.

I've literally heard people say "it's a shame that that battered woman is sure to beat her hypothetical kids." What it comes down to is that people are pretty dumb.

The Snoo
Jul 5, 2007

by Y Kant Ozma Post


I never said ALL sexual abuse victims go onto be abusers themselves. I'm not an abuser. my mother isn't, either, and she was abused as well.

note I said 'usually the result of being abused themselves, or having a mental illness'

----------------
This thread brought to you by a tremendous dickhead!

Poizen Jam
Dec 2, 2006

Poi, Zen, Jam.


A Pale Horse posted:

Pedophiles always have martyr complexes and play the victim card when they've been caught. Any such statistics are based on self reporting and you'll pardon me if I don't exactly believe them when they try to justify and minimize their crimes by claiming they couldn't help it and they only raped kids because they were abused themselves.

I mean, I'm sure some of them were abused, but 93% is a ludicrous statistic. It also doesn't take into consideration that most of people who have been sexually abused don't become abusers themselves so its not a direct correlation between abuse=abuser.

Did it ever occur to you that being abused may play a large part in normalizing said paedophillic behaviour? And since humans learn mostly from modelling and imitating behaviour, do you not see how it would be common for paedophiles to have been abused themselves? To say that paedophiles often were abused themselves is hardly a controversial claim, and I think you're doing a disservice to the issue by writing it off as a martyr complex. That attitude does not help, and your entire first paragraph is part of the reason why paedophiles hide and eventually act out rather than seek treatment.

I do agree with what you said in the next post, about suspecting the abused to abuse further exacerbating the problem. It increases the culture of normalization towards abused becoming abusers.

Rap
Sep 1, 2007

BLITZ

The Snoo posted:

I never said ALL sexual abuse victims go onto be abusers themselves. I'm not an abuser. my mother isn't, either, and she was abused as well.
yeah but you do have an etsy.

Neremworld
Dec 3, 2007

IF I ONLY HAD A BRAIN

get it? because I use strawman arguments constantly and am probably mentally retarded?


A Pale Horse posted:

France is currently shielding a very well known convicted child rapist from his just punishment just because he makes pretty good movies, so I'm not so sure about your conclusion.

Huh. I didn't know that film-making was a sport.

Detroit_Dogg
Feb 2, 2008



Rap posted:

yeah but you do have an etsy.

Agreed

Bugsy
Jul 15, 2004

I'm thumpin'. That's
why they call me
'Thumper'.


From looking at the selected jury and all of the alternates, it looks like a hung jury is the prosecution's best bet. I don't see how Jerry will ever get convicted of anything with 9 of the jurors having strong ties to the school and three of them with ties to witnesses.

http://onwardstate.com/2012/06/06/j...monday-morning/

Nonsense
Jan 26, 2007



A Pale Horse posted:

France is currently shielding a very well known convicted child rapist from his just punishment just because he makes pretty good movies, so I'm not so sure about your conclusion.

I think they have a policy against letting any of their citizens spending any amount of time in US prisons, no matter their crime. I thought I remember reading somewhere that some countries consider US prisons way too bad, to allow criminals to be there, or something. If I'm wrong sorry, but I thought it was France in particular that this originated from! I guess it's because he's really rich.

Goosed it.
Nov 2, 2011


Poizen Jam posted:

Did it ever occur to you that being abused may play a large part in normalizing said paedophillic behaviour? And since humans learn mostly from modelling and imitating behaviour, do you not see how it would be common for paedophiles to have been abused themselves? To say that paedophiles often were abused themselves is hardly a controversial claim, and I think you're doing a disservice to the issue by writing it off as a martyr complex. That attitude does not help, and your entire first paragraph is part of the reason why paedophiles hide and eventually act out rather than seek treatment.

There's an important distinction between the term "child abuser" and the term "pedophile".

You equating the two is definitely not going to encourage pedophiles to seek treatment.

AKA Pseudonym
May 16, 2004

A dashing and sophisticated young man

Nonsense posted:

I think they have a policy against letting any of their citizens spending any amount of time in US prisons, no matter their crime. I thought I remember reading somewhere that some countries consider US prisons way too bad, to allow criminals to be there, or something. If I'm wrong sorry, but I thought it was France in particular that this originated from! I guess it's because he's really rich.

France has no such policy. It does have an extradition agreement with the US that allows it to refuse extradition of its own citizens and they initially refused to extradite Polanski because of his stature as an artist. These days the French government seems to be more keen on extradition and the French public has overwhelmingly supported his extradition for quite a while. But he lives in Switzerland now which almost extradited him but decided not to for whatever reason.

Antti
Oct 10, 2006


Get caught having a whizz in the public, get put on the sexual offender list, be a persona non grata living under a bridge for the rest of your days. (If you're not given a life sentence for failing to register an address you don't have.)

surprise sex children, and hordes of people will stand up in your support and vilify your victims, and you'll probably get off scott free on top.

HackerJoeGuy
Apr 18, 2007



Bugsy posted:

From looking at the selected jury and all of the alternates, it looks like a hung jury is the prosecution's best bet. I don't see how Jerry will ever get convicted of anything with 9 of the jurors having strong ties to the school and three of them with ties to witnesses.

http://onwardstate.com/2012/06/06/j...monday-morning/

Honestly I'm surprised more of the jurors don't have direct ties to Penn State. I don't think it will work on in Sandusky's favor regardless, because he's pretty much considered to be pure-strain evil by even the most adamant of PSU athletics supporters. It's a very, very small group that overlooks what he did.

Nonsense
Jan 26, 2007



AKA Pseudonym posted:

France has no such policy. It does have an extradition agreement with the US that allows it to refuse extradition of its own citizens and they initially refused to extradite Polanski because of his stature as an artist. These days the French government seems to be more keen on extradition and the French public has overwhelmingly supported his extradition for quite a while. But he lives in Switzerland now which almost extradited him but decided not to for whatever reason.

Ok, thank you for correcting me, I knew it sounded shaky, but it's just what my dumb brain had scattered and tried to re-paste together the reasoning for him not being extradited. Although yeah, he's clearly running away, and probably will run from Switzerland if he gets told by a little bird that the Swiss government will send him to America.

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bonestructure
Sep 25, 2008

♫ The best part of waking up
Is CATFISH IN YOUR CUP! ♫


Related to the earlier discussion about the cult of football in US high schools and colleges, there was a heartbreaking piece on Longreads today about a University of Memphis football player named Dasmine Cathey.

quote:

Colleges channel players into all sorts of less-rigorous tracks, some of which require little classroom attendance. One of the popular paths for Memphis athletes—including Mr. Cathey and nearly a third of his football teammates—is an online program designed for working adults and students looking to build their own degrees.

Most semesters he takes a potpourri of courses, hardly building toward any specialization. This year he is enrolled in "Area/Facility Planning" through the School of Leisure Studies, and an online family-communication course. He has also taken "Wellness Concepts," "Introduction to Dance," and a class called "The Developing Adult" (which he failed ­— twice).

Fortunately for Mr. Cathey, D's count toward graduation in almost all of his classes. And one-third of his credits can come from electives. Over his five years at Memphis, he has gotten credit for 10 phys-ed courses, including yoga, kickboxing, free weights, and beginning tennis (which he aced—twice).

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Ed...Dasmine/132065/

He didn't make the cut to the NFL and now is facing the world unprepared and with an essentially worthless college degree (and presumably student loan debt from getting it.) Doc files of his college writing projects are linked in the article and they're jawdropping; Dasmine Cathey was almost completely uneducated and illiterate after twelve years of public school and four years of college. He couldn't even spell the degree he graduated with. And apparently no one gave a much of a drat as long as he could run a fast 40.

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