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Before Watchmen. A prequel of sorts to Moore's and Gibbon's magnum opus mini-series? Was it neccessary? Is this what we wanted? Do we care? It seems that a lot of people care, and there has been a lot written about Before Watchmen in regards to creators rights, and even some some early reviews about the various titles. DC has been hyping the titles and are no doubt hoping for some major bank to come from them. The comicbook community seems to be both drawn to the news and disgusted but there is no doubt that this is big. Watchmen was more than just a comicbook for comicbook nerds. It had major mainstream success and showed that comics could be mature and meet a wider audience, insomuch that it was even named as one of the top 100 books of the 20th century by Time Magazine. This thread will be for discussion, debate, praise, speculation and reviews of the Before Watchmen titles which are: BW: Minutemen  WRITER:Darwyn Cooke ARTIST: Darwyn Cooke THOUGHTS: Out of all the titles this one holds the most promise. Cooke did an excellent retro looking comic in DC: New Frontier (seriously go read it if you haven't yet) and it looks like he will be using the same style for Minutemen. One of the biggest criticisms to come out about BW is that Watchmen was already a contained story so what more could be said about it. With the Minutemen though there could be a lot more to add about the history and personalities and hopefully Cooke will explore those histories. This is what Cooke had to say about the project MOORE HATRED RATING: 6/10. Moore will probably hate most of the projects (if he choses to even acknowledge them) but I doubt that this will be the worst title of the lot. Silk Spectre  WRITER:Darwyn Cooke, Amanda Conner ARTIST: Amanda Conner THOUGHTS: I am torn with this one. As stated above I really like Cooke, and while he isn't doing the art for this one Conner is and I love her art too (plus a female creator on a major DC title - that's soemthing). I was just never a big fan of the Silk Spectre. Out of all the characters from the original Watchmen I found her to be the most boring. Assuming Cooke and Conner will flesh her out a bit more. MOORE HATRED RATING: 7/10. I don't know much Moore cared about the character and I doubt the comicbook will go against much that he established already. If anything it might actually improve the character. The Comedian  WRITER: Brian Azzarello ARTIST: J.G. Jones THOUGHTS: More topnotch talent slated for this title. Comedian is a creep and if there is any author out there that can do creep it's Azz. Along with him is J.G. Jones, who I hope has 4 issues already in the can otherwise this might be the title that might be delayed or have a different artist on it. As for the Comedian Azz will probably just show him doing a lot of evil poo poo (for the country) and maybe develop some backstory of why he became the Comedian in the first place. Some potential here and I trust Azz to do something interesting with the character. MOORE HATRED RATING: 8/10. Pretty sure Moore didn't want to give the Comedian too much of a backstory of who he was before he became the Comedian because the character could stand better as a metaphor than anything else. Nite Owl  WRITER: J. Michael Straczynski ARTIST: Andy and Joe Kubert THOUGHTS: JMS gets a lot of flack in this forum and quite rightly so. The guy is capable of writing some great comics (Spiderman, Silver Surfer) but his stint at DC has been less than impressive (shittingly insulting Brave and the Bold, even shittier and insulting Superman). I like the Kuberts but I don't really think they can save this title. I expect some good ideas poorly executed. MOORE HATRED RATING: 9/10 Moore did a lot to develope Nite-Owl and this title feels very unneccessary. I think a title that explored his life after Watchmen would be interesting but this is Before Watchmen, not After Watchmen Ozymandias  WRITER: Len Wein ARTIST: Jae Lee THOUGHTS: I like Wein. I met him once and he was a very nice guy. However I just don't think he has what it takes to tell the story of Ozymandias, one of the most complex characters of Watchmen (to me at least). Jae Lee's artwork looks amazing though and I really love the cover for issue #2 (I like gas masks, okay) but I just don't have high hopes for this. I think it would be better to read as a trade. MOORE HATRED RATING: 9/10. Another character that Moore mapped up from his early days. Nothing much more needs to be tolled about Ozy. Rorschach  WRITER: Brian Azzarello ARTIST: Lee Bermejo THOUGHTS: Azz decides to tackle another madman and as said before he is probably the man to do it. Alongside him is Bermejo he did artwork on Luthor: Man of Steel and Joker (both pretty good titles). This is probably going to be the title most people will focus on. For better or worse Rorschach was the breakout star of Watchmen and it will be interesting to see how he is portrayed in BW. I trust Azz to do something interesting with the character but he is also the character with the most backstory in Watchmen so I don't really know what Azz will do with him. MOORE HATRED RATING: 10/10. Rorschach was the character to have the most backstory. Moore put a lot into telling Rorschach story. What more could Azz add to Moore's character? Dr. Manhattan  WRITER: J. Michael Straczynski ARTIST: Adam Hughes THOUGHTS: Dr. Manhattan is a very interesting character who was also very fleshed out by Moore. He had a past before he became Dr. Manhattan and his origin was explained. Again the writer is JMS and I don't know what to expect from him but maybe, just maybe, he could turn up another Silver Surfer Requim with Dr. Manhattan in the main role. Will he? Probably not. MOORE HATRED RATING: 10/10. Another fleshed out character plus JMS. Outlook not good. So there you have it. Those are the titles. I tried fitting in some interesting articles about BW but there is a lot more out there so feel free to recommend me some links and I will add it to the further reading below. Also feel free to criticize this first post knowing that I will hide behind the defense that this was my first major first posting and your words will only hurt me until the alchol can take the pain away. Discuss/speculate/criticize and go crazy. Further reading: Some thoughts from Moore - http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/...ntract-gibbons/ Opinion pro-BW piece - http://www.newsarama.com/comics/bef...ing-120201.html Guardian article - http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/201...efends-prequels Slate Magazine talking about BW and Alan Moore - http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/..._is_right_.html Forseeable release dates: Wednesday, June 20: COMEDIAN #1 Wednesday, June 27: NITE OWL #1 Wednesday, July 4: OZYMANDIAS #1 Wednesday, July 11: MINUTEMEN #2 Wednesday, July 18: SILK SPECTRE #2 Wednesday, July 25: COMEDIAN #2 Wednesday, August 1: NITE OWL #2 Wednesday, August 8: OZYMANDIAS #2 Wednesday, August 15: RORSCHACH #1 Wednesday, August 22: DR. MANHATTAN #1 Wednesday, August 29: MINUTEMEN #3 Madkal fucked around with this message at Jun 14, 2012 around 19:13 |
| # ? Jun 5, 2012 23:43 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 16:30 |
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Madkal posted:Nite Owl I can only assume that is Alan Moore's chimney Nite Owl is shiting down.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 01:22 |
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The best Alan Moore quote out of this entire fiasco?Alan Moore posted:I know a way that they could have sorted out their (DC's) continuity. I could have gotten rid of all of their problems for them. It would have been really simple. But, like I say, they unfortunately alienated me. He's such an insufferable old coot but the thing is, he's probably telling the truth. He is a man with staggering talent and he probably has an amazing idea rattling around in his old wizard's noggin that would've fixed all their ridiculous continuity woes but they hosed him so gently caress 'em.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 01:54 |
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He's bluffing. If he really had an idea like that he wouldn't sit on it, he'd rework it and publish it somewhere else so that DC could never use it even if one of their writers came up with it separately. Then when the accumulated characters of all their alternate universes and sidestories foam up about their waists, all the writers and story editors will look up and shout "Save us," and he'll whisper "Cash up front and 20% residuals on collections and reprints."
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 02:25 |
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This is an excellent thread, fantastic op! I will share my thoughts on the first book tomorrow.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 02:28 |
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This whole thing just sums up everything wrong with DC's practices. I'm not talking about creator's rights and stuff but rather the manner in which these books are released. There are 7 series written by various writers with 4-6 issues each and they'll be tied together with a single epilogue. This means that in order to get the complete story you'll have to buy 35 issues. Each issue will also have a piece of the new Black Freighter, right? Will there be repeats each issue or will there seriously be 35 pieces of the story that you have to collect to get the complete package? This is exactly what Moore means when he says "Watchmen was something that stood on its own and it had the integrity of a literary work." Unless all these writers are closely collaborating together (and the interviews I've read suggests they are not) you have a bunch of possibly unrelated stories that have nothing to do with each other in theme or meaning. They have to be autonomous because if they were related and you didn't like one writer's work you would stop buying the whole thing. I think Before Watchmen could work but ideally it should be a limited series: a single writer, one or two issues per character, The Black Freighter serving as an overlying piece, and the final epilogue at the end. Instead we have a broken spiderweb of stories that will only ever be as good as the weakest one. A single bad story will drag the entire thing down and will result in people saying "Read Rorschach, but forget Silk Spectre. Minutemen is good but Ozymandias is the best." Is that how any story should be remembered? Skip Book 1, it's boring, but jump right into Book 3 it doesn't loving matter because they all stand alone anyway. Serious question, how do you think DC will collect this? Will each character have their own trade? Will there be a smattering of issues from each character in a trade? Will they be lumped together based on theme like Ozymandias + Nite Owl? Will they just say "gently caress it" and release a single 800 page omnibus edition? Seriously, how do you tie this together?
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 02:41 |
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When this was first announced I wondered if my rage would simply burn itself out and I'd remain apathetic about the whole poo poo pile once it actually dropped. A week ago my local shop was goddamned wallpapered in Before Watchmen horseshit. Nope, if anything I'm madder than I was to begin with. I'm not a very emotional person and Watchmen isn't even my favorite comic, but this whole farce reeks of desperation and profound disrespect for comics creators. It's hard to articulate exactly what enrages me so--I think it's a combination of factors. First of all, I think comics can and should be Literature (or capital A Art). Marvel and DC especially treat comics as disposable entertainment, which is fair enough, but sometimes by accident they'll release something more. Watchmen has become the progenitor example of that. Pretty much every indy publisher (all the way up to loving Rob Liefeld's old company) have a better signal to noise ratio here. The second thing that pisses me off is that DC Comics straight up treated Alan Moore like a jizz rag, then when he escaped into a new landfill they bought that one up and jerked off onto him again. No! That can't be! I'm sure they bought Wildstorm so they could publish loving Grifter. And the third is something that Alan Moore brought up back when reporters were begging him to get some kind of deliciously cruel line: can't DC do something better and more interesting than rehashing a comic that's already a quarter of a century old? Of course, this falls apart when you realize that they've been rehashing the same story for seventy years, but still. Look at the signal to noise ratio on the New 52. There's like maybe four of those I wouldn't use for toilet paper. This is the metaphor I've been using for months, but basically ask yourself this: Let's say the Penguin Group used elaborate bullshit to steal the rights to Gravity's Rainbow and then for twenty years they sat on them, all the while doing their best to trick Thomas Pynchon into working for them again. Finally, once that looks hopeless and the company's circling the drain they hire Dean Koontz to write prequels. Would that be okay?
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 03:04 |
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I was initially put off by this too and damned if I'm not still put off by it. I have zero interest in these books. I don't care if Moore and Gibbons themselves created BW either. The tale is told.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 03:17 |
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Reminder that the best way to stick it to DC about these books is to not read them, discuss them, or otherwise raise the level of interest about it. If you must discuss keep the focus on the issue of creator's rights. Apathy is basically the best answer.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 03:54 |
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It hurts so much to not get these to look at the pictures. I don't care about the stories I just want to look at Darwyn Cooke and Amanda Conner's Watchmen fanart!
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 04:01 |
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al-azad posted:This whole thing just sums up everything wrong with DC's practices. I'm not talking about creator's rights and stuff but rather the manner in which these books are released. There are 7 series written by various writers with 4-6 issues each and they'll be tied together with a single epilogue. This means that in order to get the complete story you'll have to buy 35 issues. Each issue will also have a piece of the new Black Freighter, right? Will there be repeats each issue or will there seriously be 35 pieces of the story that you have to collect to get the complete package? This will be just like any other mega-crossover that DC or Marvel have put out over the last several years. Only this time, instead of members of Heroes for Hire being tentacle raped on a World War Hulk cover, we've got Doctor Manhattan getting ready to plow the Silk Spectre up the butt.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 04:09 |
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I freely admit that I really want to read the Minutemen series, and I'm at least curious about the Azz books. The Minutemen ones for the reasons listed in the OP, and the Azz ones simply because I'm a massive mark for his stuff after Joker and Luthor.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 04:15 |
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If Minutemen turns out to be the greatest Golden Age homage it ill just be more frustrating they couldn't pitch an original idea instead.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 04:25 |
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Semper Fudge posted:Reminder that the best way to stick it to DC about these books is to not read them, discuss them, or otherwise raise the level of interest about it. If you must discuss keep the focus on the issue of creator's rights. And if I do want to read them, is this the thread to discuss them or no?
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 04:31 |
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Please do not discuss the 'Before Watchmen' comics in the 'Before Watchmen' thread.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 04:44 |
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Was Taters posted:And if I do want to read them, is this the thread to discuss them or no? Seeing as this is the Before Watchmen thread I would appreciate it if you did.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 04:45 |
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Still not going to buy or read these because of the creators' rights stuff, and also because I'm really tired of comics and movies digging up corpses and animating them in a macabre pantomime of life. Unfortunately since the movie was so recently ago, because of the big name creators involved, because of the massive marketing push, and because most nerds don't care at all about creators' rights and only care about getting more stories from characters they recognize, this is probably going to sell fairly well and make DC a bunch of money and lead to more things like this in the future. Though I'm at a loss to how much lower they could sink.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 04:47 |
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That's at least a silver lining. I genuinely cannot see how DC could stoop lower. They're circling the drain but very shortly they'll go under and get sucked into the septic tank. For a couple decades DC has functioned as a wing of Warner Bros. Research and Development, not their publishing wing. As Research and Development (at least at the time) they were not beholden to turning a profit. This explains their tendency to allow under-performing books to survive, at least back in the day. But given how quickly they turned to pathetic gimmicks after their reorganization as DC Entertainment I suspect somebody high up at Warner Bros. suddenly saw just how much of a money sink DC is and the only thing of note they've produced is the Batman franchise. Now from outward appearances it looks like they're scrambling to turn a profit by any means necessary. And it's not a foregone conclusion that these books will be successful. Out of dozens of comics nerds I know only two are going to read any of these books. One runs a comic book shop, so she won't be paying for them and the other is only going to pick up the Az books, because he's a huge Az fanboy. I have the firm hope and belief that the comic book reading public will show some respect for themselves and for the creators who make good comics. I think there's a strong possibility that these books will seriously under-perform. For my part--I can't give DC my money right now. So even if they make a killing I've offset one person buying every one of these books.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 05:20 |
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Was Taters posted:And if I do want to read them, is this the thread to discuss them or no? Was just a broad response to Unbelivable Fat Man's sentiment. If this project gives you a sour taste in your mouth, raising the level of interest by discussing the actual content through reading scans or whatever is just adding to the problem.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 05:23 |
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Bieeardo posted:Doctor Manhattan getting ready to plow the Silk Spectre up the butt. Oh god I thought I was the only one who saw it that way. Minutemen is really the only one of these I could see not just feeling like it's just going over the same ground less effectively, and even then I'm not amazingly optimistic.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 05:33 |
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Semper Fudge posted:Was just a broad response to Unbelivable Fat Man's sentiment. If this project gives you a sour taste in your mouth, raising the level of interest by discussing the actual content through reading scans or whatever is just adding to the problem. Oh no! We're going to raise the profile of this project from... the most hyped to even more the most!
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 05:34 |
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Happy Hippo posted:The best Alan Moore quote out of this entire fiasco? DC: Okay Alan, we've met all your demands and paid you upfront, let's hear it! Moore: Allow your characters to age and die in real time and be replaced by new characters, forcing you to up your creative game in order to excite the audience and establish new characters to join the beloved pantheon of the past. DC: 
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 07:02 |
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Jerusalem posted:DC: Okay Alan, we've met all your demands and paid you upfront, let's hear it! Welp, superheroes are just guys in suits so you can carry on a character's legacy long after the original dies. Problem solved, nothing new is made, money is printed, good day.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 07:47 |
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This would be the perfect time for Marvel to reprint Marvel Man. I'm a huge Alan Moore fan, but I'm not remotely excited about Before Watchmen: for all of Watchmen's cultural significance, I wouldn't put it in my top 5 Alan Moore works today.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 10:45 |
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Just to reiterate so that this thread doesn't go off the rails this thread is for discussing the books. As in the actual quality of the books themselves. If you don't want to read the books or are not reading them as you don't agree with DC that's fine. Don't post about it in this thread as there are obviously people that do want to buy and support the title. By now I'm sure everyone is at their own comfortable decision on the project and have decided whether they will buy/read the books or not. If you do want to discuss issues in regards to creator rights, a general discussion on Alan Moore's work or a similar topic then a new thread can be created for them.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 11:37 |
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I'm really excited for Minutemen and Silk Spectre. I'll also give Comedian and Rorschach a change. Edit: Thanks Waterhaul, that would have gotten annoying. Revol fucked around with this message at Jun 6, 2012 around 13:35 |
| # ? Jun 6, 2012 13:25 |
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I thought Minutemen #1 was a pretty great read. It seems like one of the few (if not the only) titles that might actually be able to truly add something to the mythos. Cooke clearly has a very specific story to tell, and doesn't feel like a big name handed a character like I fear the JMS books will be. I'll definitely be sticking with this one the whole way through. The backup was really a bunch of nothing. I guess they have to barely give us anything in order to stretch the story out over all the issues of each title, but nevertheless it's going to hard to keep readers interest in continuing the story when they only give 2 pages per issue.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 19:38 |
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Space_Butler posted:I thought Minutemen #1 was a pretty great read. It seems like one of the few (if not the only) titles that might actually be able to truly add something to the mythos. Cooke clearly has a very specific story to tell, and doesn't feel like a big name handed a character like I fear the JMS books will be. I'll definitely be sticking with this one the whole way through. Agreed on both points. I'll thumb through the other issues at my local store, but Minutemen was definitely a good read.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 21:05 |
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Yeah, any trepidation I had about this project flew out the window after the first page of Minutemen. I thought it was simply exquisite. Just like what made the original Watchmen a great work, here once again we have the synthesis of the romanticism of the past and the brutality of the truth, crashing into one another with some palpably emotional results. This will probably remain the only one of these miniseries I pick up but I am so glad I did.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 21:05 |
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Unfortunately I am at work so I haven't had a chance to pick it up yet but for me Minutemen has shown the most promise out of all the premises and promotions. There really seems like there is room to tell a great story with the characters, and Cooke has shown to be the kind of guy to tell a great homage to the golden age.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 21:09 |
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Minutemen is completely unsurprising to me, but it's a good thing. It's a Darwyn Cooke book. He makes good poo poo. This, here, is good poo poo. I was expecting a good read with good art, and I got it. And again, honestly, I'm more excited about Silk Spectre. I'm a huge Cooke fan (and I even got to meet him at my comic book store, he signed me a copy of Batman: Ego), but Amanda Conner art on a Silk Spectre book fills my head with euphoric feelings.
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| # ? Jun 6, 2012 22:54 |
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The first issue of Minutemen is fantastic, far better than it has any business being considering all the backlash over this project. Sadly it didn't move many copies at all for me today despite a huge poster display in the front windows and I had multiple spots for it in the store.
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| # ? Jun 7, 2012 00:35 |
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I'm really looking forward to the emotional roller coaster I'm sure is to come from Silk Specter. I found myself getting really emotionally involved in her last page, and I'm sure it's going to get worse.
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| # ? Jun 7, 2012 02:33 |
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Rhyno posted:The first issue of Minutemen is fantastic, far better than it has any business being considering all the backlash over this project. Sadly it didn't move many copies at all for me today despite a huge poster display in the front windows and I had multiple spots for it in the store. There's something painfully amusing about how what will likely be the best book of the event will also sell the least because nobody seems to care about anyone that wasn't a main character in Watchmen.
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| # ? Jun 7, 2012 05:00 |
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It's been a LONG time since I read Watchmen (I probably should reread the whole thing in preparation for going into this event), but I kinda wished that the first issue had had a little more substance rather than all the background setup. I realize it's necessary, and I enjoyed finding out about the people we are going to be reading about, but not...a lot...happened. Haha. It does a very good job of setting up a world, though.
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| # ? Jun 7, 2012 05:30 |
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I will buy Silk Spectre. Not because I actually want it, I think this whole thing is really, really stupid, but because I want Darwin Cooke and Amanda Connor to get more work and a higher profile.
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| # ? Jun 7, 2012 16:43 |
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The only part I really liked about Minutemen was the couple of pages about Mothman/Byron Lewis. Mostly because this was one character that you really didn't know all that much about from the original. Everything else just seemed a little rehash-y.
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| # ? Jun 7, 2012 19:05 |
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muscles like this? posted:The only part I really liked about Minutemen was the couple of pages about Mothman/Byron Lewis. Mostly because this was one character that you really didn't know all that much about from the original. Everything else just seemed a little rehash-y. That was my favorite part of the book. A very interesting take on a superhero character, I really got into it. I forget what happened to him.
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| # ? Jun 7, 2012 19:45 |
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Revol posted:I forget what happened to him.
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| # ? Jun 7, 2012 20:34 |
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| # ? May 24, 2013 16:30 |
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Two weeks of Cooke is gonna do a lot to smooth the crowds before the poo poo gets raw. He is really bringing it and just making GBS threads all over what Geoff Johns did in JLA #1.
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| # ? Jun 8, 2012 04:27 |
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