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Fuzz posted:Though you occasionally get something good, like Heavenly Sword, or most of the Metroid games, or Perfect Dark, or you have games with believable and genuinely good female characters in them like Uncharted, or the original Prince of Persia reboot. It sounds like you're just sensationalizing it for the sake of being outraged. She doesn't even come up that much in the game except for the beginning when everyone is like 'Hey Wei long time no see hows your family?' and then a few moments later on when characters reminisces about shared history. Plus she didn't get loving kidnapped or murdered by the triads. She OD'd on drugs. It's tangentially related at best, and it's never used as the characters primary motivation. It sounds to me like you're over-blowing it for the sake of drama really. Especially in Sleeping Dogs of all games to rant about marginalization of minorities. I mean do you think there might be a reason someone gave you a red title calling you out as an annoying drama queen?
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Apr 9, 2014 22:07
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Crappy Jack posted:Nope, it's possible to have criticisms without "being outraged". And just because Sleeping Dogs does a good job at portraying Hong Kong Asian culture, albeit through a Hollywood lens, doesn't mean that it can't fall short in other areas. So what exactly were you hoping to do with this post aside from start some sort of mudslinging back and forth? I think calling something a 'social travesty' counts as outrage doesn't it? And I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just pointing out that there's a difference between a weak aspect of a story and some kind of attack on minorities. Plus what I was hoping to achieve was voicing how I disagree with that statement and think it doesn't really apply to Sleeping Dogs. What are you trying to achieve with your posts? (Don't answer that it's a rhetorical question because asking people what they're trying to achieve with their posts in a forum about video games is loving laughable)
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Apr 9, 2014 22:23
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Kibayasu posted:You wrote the bold part like its a good thing, or that it makes something that could use improvement better. It actually makes it worse. Of course it's a good thing, do you really want a bunch of lovely flashbacks to a dead character interrupting the game? For the sake of building up a character who is dead and will have no impact on the plot or gameplay at all aside from that fact? quote:Also I don't think you read the background notes you get very carefully because Wei's sister is literally the reason he's undercover in Hong Kong. His sister OD'd, he hunted down the man who sold her the heroin then tortured and killed him, which led directly to his recruitment by Pendrew. Wei's sister is most definitely his primary motivation, it brought him to torture someone who was probably a member of the Triads for revenge and it led to him to be easily persuaded into a dangerous undercover operation involving those same Triads. The game bringing her up more would have been far, far better. You got me, I didn't read those background notes. But putting that aside, I still don't think the dead sibling issue is one of some kind of attack on minorities. Like a bunch of people above said, you could replace it with a guy and lose nothing. And I get it, sexism is a big thing in video games. But in Sleeping Dogs? I don't buy it. It's not like the lara Croft 'save her from being raped' advertising, or Metroid other M. I just don't get what you want. Flashbacks of Wei's sister being a strong independent woman? That usually comes off more condescending than just leaving that poo poo out in my eyes. quote:Please bring up red titles some more though, it really solidifies your position. Look, I have one too, go nuts. That red title was relevant, far be it from me to see someone who is taking things too dramatically, notice they have a red title saying 'I AM A DRAMA QUEEN' and think the two might be related. Though if that red title is a quote of yours... Youch dude. EDIT: I've come up with a solution that will satisfy everyone, just have a character select screen at the start where you can play as Wei or Mimi, and depending on who you choose the other character dies off screen of a drug overdose. That would make everyone happy right?
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Apr 9, 2014 22:34
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Fuzz posted:I don't know why you quoted me with this, because I had absolutely zero issue with how Wei's sister fit into the story of this game. She was ruined and ended up killing herself because of the horror she was put through at the hands of the Triad. It was a great backdrop from which Wei's character exploded at us with both feet firmly planted into some mooks' groins. Well I'm not American if you're assuming that. And maybe I misread the prior conversation, I thought you were one of the people jumping on the game as a hate crime on women. My apologies. And really I think 'social travesty' is a bad term because the problem isn't White American's putting in super racist/sexist characters into their games (though that is a problem) the main problem is the fact that America makes the most movies/video games in the world by a large margin. And most of those things are gonna be written by White Americans. If every country in the world had the same production power as America, I'm sure we'd have a lot more variety, but until then we're gonna have to put up with most games being written by people more familiar with American culture and people. And really I think it's unfair to attack them for that when their only crime is writing what they're familiar with, and not writing about things they don't know about (which usually ends disastrously anyway). And again, that's not to make an excuse for games that are legitimately offensive or racist/sexist, but games like Sleeping Dogs, although they have weaknesses, to imply those weakness are caused by racism/sexism/some other form of hate, comes off as trying to pick a fight for the sake of it to me.
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Apr 9, 2014 22:43
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See this is what I mean about picking a fight for no real reason. You guys aren't even talking about the game now, you're just abstractly talking about how 'Racism is WRONG man!' and how you used to be a racist or something I kind of glazed over when it became a blog entry. I mean yeah of course ignorance isn't an excuse for racism, and knowing about other cultures is a good thing but I don't see how this relates to Sleeping Dogs or even video games in general since having a personal knowledge of other cultures doesn't mean you're under obligation to write stories/games about them. Or that every game should include equal numbers of black, white, asian, male and female characters lest it be branded as racist/sexist. Unless you're bringing up specific examples or something you're just kind of jacking each other off over how much you love not being racist. blackguy32 posted:Yes it was, but that doesn't mean it avoided some pretty bad tropes along the way. Since his motivation for a lot of the stuff he does is his sister, I would honestly like to know what she would have thought about a lot of the stuff he ends up doing during the story line. I know your hearts in the right place dude but listen to yourself. I never once thought, as I drove down the street knocking down innocent vendors who only wanted to sell me a pork bun, "Hmmm I wish I knew more about this ancillary character who literally could not possibly be important to the upcoming storyline, they should remove some gameplay so I could hear her opinions on all this stuff I'm doing' And of course the martial arts instructor had more attention paid to him than the sister he's ACTUALLY ALIVE AND DOING STUFF DURING THE STORYLINE. I mean if the ghost of Mimi kept popping up after every mission to make comments on what I'm doing... It just sounds like really, really bad writing. Infinitely worse than 'this character doesn't really come up in the game' PootieTang fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 23:01
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Crappy Jack posted:That's twice now where this conversation was just about to die down on its own quote:and then you pop back in with a post like this, dude. If you want the thread to drop the sexism and minority chat, then don't bring up the sexism and minority chat, everybody will talk it out for a bit, somebody will make a joke about pork buns and then we'll be back on track. All you're doing is continuing the conversation you want to stop. I'm not trying to stop the discussion, in fact I'm contributing to it because I disagree with points raised. You see someone who disagrees isn't always mindlessly trying to end conversation and discussion because they hate it, sometimes they're just expressing a view, just like everyone else who posts on the forum.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:11
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Crappy Jack posted:You know what? That's entirely fair. It's just usually when I see posts along these lines, they usually come with a bunch of "CAN WE GET BACK TO TALKING ABOUT THE GAME PLEASE", with no real intent to discuss instead of just making GBS threads up the thread until it goes back to normal. Oh yeah that poo poo's lame. I'm glad we can disagree politely (well as polite as SA gets) :V blackguy32 posted:Please don't do this. Do not try to put words into my mouth. I don't see where I did? Seriously I didn't modify anything in the quote tags. quote:I expressed an opinion. An opinion that you are free to disagree with. I have "listened to myself" and I know what I posted. I don't have any sort of agenda other than knowing what kind of person was really driving Wei to do all these things. She doesn't have to be a flashback, she doesn't have to be a ghost. There are other ways to tell a story other than simply ignoring most of what was there. I'm very curious to know how you would improve the game by including Mimi more. I'm not joking for anything, because I really can't see how it can be done without coming across as hamfisted or otherwise detrimental. quote:Im going to ignore the beginning of your post because it contains some pretty bad responses that usually pop up whenever the subject is talked about But by definition you're not ignoring it, acknowledging it and then dismissing it by saying 'OH IT'S PRETTY BAD IN SOME WAY'. I mean if you're gonna take the high-road take the high-road dude, don't try and have your cake and eat it too.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:21
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Fuzz posted:Wei is portrayed as a nice guy but as the game progresses and you uncover more Case Files and see what happens, you progressively realize that he is not a nice man at all and is a really emotionally scarred and hosed up dude with a whole lot of sociopathic rage brimming just beneath the surface. And that's what makes the game so compelling and great, and why Wei is a loving rad character. Or if you didn't read the case files like me, you slowly start to discover Wei has a lot of sociopathic rage beneath the surface when he occasionally gets bored doing his whole 'infiltrate the triad' thing and decides to murder a bunch of cops and go on a murderous rampage using their stolen weapons.
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Apr 9, 2014 23:29
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The man VERY regularly puts live human beings into metal fans, impales them on giant meat-hooks, or just plain disembowels them with a loving meat-cleaver and doesn't even blink. Of course he's a loving pyscho. That's how he convinces the Triad he's not a cop. By regularly murdering hundreds of people in gruesome ways. Are you really surprised that he has a series of dysfunctional relationships that verge on something out of an e/n thread. Does the game track how many people you kill etc? I may have to re-install and find out just how many people Wei directly killed in the course of his undercover work. I wanna see what percentage of the population of Hong Kong died at Wei's hands.
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Apr 10, 2014 01:09
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codenameFANGIO posted:Haha, no. It made perfect sense, but now that you mention it, every other sickening thing I did in that game made me go Well naturally it's fun to murder people in creative and gory ways, but stalking women like you're the guy from Maniac isn't. Though they could have saved it by having the last objective of the mission be to go complain about it on a men's rights sub-reddit.
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Apr 10, 2014 01:47
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and that's one of the few parts where I was all 
instead. I guess the fact that it's not just a shooting/kicking/murdering/theft mission, so it's extra jarring. That's pretty cool to me, actually.