Game of Thrones Hiatus: ACOK Now Open For Discussion (Mostly)

«‹›95 »

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The TV IV > Game of Thrones Hiatus: ACOK Now Open For Discussion (Mostly)

HenessyHero: Mar 4, 2008; "I thought we had something, Shepard. Something real."

Dwarsen posted:

I have to say I prefered season 1, even though this one was great too. I guess the thing that irked me the most was that the "good guys" just couldn't loving catch a break. It felt like the "bad guys" were incompetent and awful but still won, for utterly arbitrary or random reasons. It annoyed me a bit.

Yeah, I'm partly feeling the same thing. However, I like that this series is probably going for the slow-build. Good antagonists need to build up a solid win-streak to remain credible and threatening, which usually means a long and depressing journey for anyone opposing them. A final victory for Robb would taste so much sweeter after making him run through a minor hell, imho. It makes the final payoff more satisfying.

# ? Jun 8, 2012 21:57

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 18, 2013 23:38

Axeface: Feb 28, 2009; He Who Walks
Behind The Aisles

Dwarsen posted:

That's also one thing I really like about the show, all these grey areas. The closest thing to actual good guys are the Starks, and in the last episode we're shown that some of their men abused and murdered some women and hung them in a tree. Honourable chaps, those Starks.

One of my favorite things about this show is that it's actually made the Starks the villains, not in any narrative sense but in terms of the meta-cultural context. GoT, as far as I can tell, is about taking the staid, reactionary, insidious tradition of romantic knightly self-myth (most recently echoed in LotR) and aggressively subverting the gently caress out of it. Some tepid brand of muck-racking "realism" obviously isn't the goal, given the stylization, but it's exaggerating the source material and humanizing it to the point where it's impossible not to feel cynical about that mythology. The Lannisters are loving supervillains, sure, but they're also the basic point of contrast for the Starks: They're a garish vision of the truth underpinning those old chansons de geste, while Ned Stark and his brood represent the comfortable, stagnant fairy tale fantasy of heroes in shining armor. They're where a lot of the audience identification happens, and it's the tension of their situation that's the focus of the storytelling thus far, but breaking them down is also the point. Their destruction is the ultimate moral good of the story. They are collectively Sauron, and Frodo is actually George R. R. Martin himself.

It's basic, but it's neat.

# ? Jun 8, 2012 21:59

Steve Yun: Aug 7, 2003; I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS

Axeface's posts analyzing the show are the best things about these threads.

# ? Jun 8, 2012 22:02

Azure_Horizon: Mar 27, 2010; You can live in the wreckage and pretend it's the mansion you remember, or you can crawl from the rubble and move on.

Rarity posted:

There really isn't much Qarth politics in the books either. Dany just hangs out at Ducksauce's place while the Thirteen dick her around and he proposes marriage while crying. Then she visits the HotU because she's getting bored, they try to attack her and she burns it down. The show did a much better job of exploring her motivations and giving Ducksauce some character.

I don't agree. I think they made Ducksauce outright totally boring where there was at least some mystique/intrigue to his character in the book. In the show they just have him be repetitive as all hell.

# ? Jun 8, 2012 22:19

jax: Jun 17, 2001; I love my brick.

Ambiguatron posted:

You may be confusing him with Renly.

This was to easily glossed over, well played

# ? Jun 8, 2012 22:28

Rape Jake.: Feb 23, 2012; by T. Mascis

NihilCredo posted:

It's not the name, it's what she asks in exchange for un-naming.

I personally don't think it will come up again and therefore don't think it's spoilery, but for the exact same reason it's also not a problem to not talk about it, so.

Rarity spoiled pretty much everything else that happens differently in the books. I cannot think why Harrenhall would be any more spoilery.

# ? Jun 8, 2012 22:30

Rarity: Oct 21, 2010; "What do we say to people who talk about the books?"

"Not today."

surprise sex Jake. posted:

Rarity spoiled pretty much everything else that happens differently in the books. I cannot think why Harrenhall would be any more spoilery.

Cause it involves an event that hasn't happened on the show yet but probably will

# ? Jun 8, 2012 22:32

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Axeface posted:

One of my favorite things about this show is that it's actually made the Starks the villains, not in any narrative sense but in terms of the meta-cultural context. GoT, as far as I can tell, is about taking the staid, reactionary, insidious tradition of romantic knightly self-myth (most recently echoed in LotR) and aggressively subverting the gently caress out of it. Some tepid brand of muck-racking "realism" obviously isn't the goal, given the stylization, but it's exaggerating the source material and humanizing it to the point where it's impossible not to feel cynical about that mythology. The Lannisters are loving supervillains, sure, but they're also the basic point of contrast for the Starks: They're a garish vision of the truth underpinning those old chansons de geste, while Ned Stark and his brood represent the comfortable, stagnant fairy tale fantasy of heroes in shining armor. They're where a lot of the audience identification happens, and it's the tension of their situation that's the focus of the storytelling thus far, but breaking them down is also the point. Their destruction is the ultimate moral good of the story. They are collectively Sauron, and Frodo is actually George R. R. Martin himself.

It's basic, but it's neat.

A pretty neat hint to these themes is how the Starks are the one family with a claim on their lands that goes back into ~~8000 years~~ the mists of time all the way to mythical kings with magical powers. Meanwhile, the Lannisters' traditional history may don the same habit of fake millennia, but it also openly brags about their mythical ancestor scheming/tricking his way into rulership of Casterly Rock, to hell with divine right. And the Baratheons came yesterday from the loins of a bastard who got rewarded for being really really good at killing. Three different dynastic takes on the concept of legitimate rulership, but ultimately just as valid and just as pointless.

Azure_Horizon posted:

I don't agree. I think they made Ducksauce outright totally boring where there was at least some mystique/intrigue to his character in the book. In the show they just have him be repetitive as all hell.

Ok, I can see XXD losing a bit of his mystery, but holy crap how can you say that he was more repetitive in the show than in the book?

# ? Jun 8, 2012 22:33

Rape Jake.: Feb 23, 2012; by T. Mascis

Rarity posted:

Cause it involves an event that hasn't happened on the show yet but probably will

Ok, I just readily assumed they cut that stuff because Arya has left Harrenhal.

# ? Jun 8, 2012 22:36

Hamass: Jul 20, 2008

Finally got book 3 from the library and it's really good. Really, really good. Only thing I'll spoil is that there hasn't been any entire-page descriptions of various types of food... yet. But seriously, if you're on the fence just read it.

# ? Jun 8, 2012 22:51

bobsmyuncle: Feb 21, 2006; aw yiss

NihilCredo posted:

Ok, I can see XXD losing a bit of his mystery, but holy crap how can you say that he was more repetitive in the show than in the book?

Yeah, though Xaro wasn't even very mysterious in the book. Dany figured out at some point that there's a Qartheen custom of gift exchange between spouses at weddings, and Xaro was going to request a dragon.

The motivation of wanting dragons stayed the same, but show got rid of all his boring fake crying and marriage proposals and gave him a political coup and a direct attack on Dany. Much better!

# ? Jun 8, 2012 22:57

whowhatwhere: Mar 15, 2010

NihilCredo posted:

A pretty neat hint to these themes is how the Starks are the one family with a claim on their lands that goes back into ~~8000 years~~ the mists of time all the way to mythical kings with magical powers. Meanwhile, the Lannisters' traditional history may don the same habit of fake millennia, but it also openly brags about their mythical ancestor scheming/tricking his way into rulership of Casterly Rock, to hell with divine right. And the Baratheons came yesterday from the loins of a bastard who got rewarded for being really really good at killing. Three different dynastic takes on the concept of legitimate rulership, but ultimately just as valid and just as pointless.

Actually, the Lannisters are a even more realpolitik than that. The Lannisters were Andals who liked the Lannister story, so they killed all the male First Men Lannisters, married their daughters and then changed their names. Same point, but more flavor.

# ? Jun 8, 2012 23:09

Gyges: Aug 4, 2004; NOW NO ONE WILL NOTICE HULK

Axeface posted:

One of my favorite things about this show is that it's actually made the Starks the villains, not in any narrative sense but in terms of the meta-cultural context. GoT, as far as I can tell, is about taking the staid, reactionary, insidious tradition of romantic knightly self-myth (most recently echoed in LotR) and aggressively subverting the gently caress out of it. Some tepid brand of muck-racking "realism" obviously isn't the goal, given the stylization, but it's exaggerating the source material and humanizing it to the point where it's impossible not to feel cynical about that mythology. The Lannisters are loving supervillains, sure, but they're also the basic point of contrast for the Starks: They're a garish vision of the truth underpinning those old chansons de geste, while Ned Stark and his brood represent the comfortable, stagnant fairy tale fantasy of heroes in shining armor. They're where a lot of the audience identification happens, and it's the tension of their situation that's the focus of the storytelling thus far, but breaking them down is also the point. Their destruction is the ultimate moral good of the story. They are collectively Sauron, and Frodo is actually George R. R. Martin himself.

It's basic, but it's neat.

Does that mean that the less Stark-like the kids become the more they are redeemed? For instance should they possess a murder genie, cavalierly break oaths, blackmail, etc.

# ? Jun 8, 2012 23:13

Rape Jake.: Feb 23, 2012; by T. Mascis

Xaro Xoan Daxos is a homosexual skinny "milk man" in the books.

# ? Jun 8, 2012 23:15

Thulsa Doom: Jun 20, 2011; Ezekiel 23:20

Daxos in the show is pretty beef, I wonder how much he can bench.

Also, the metanarrative of both the show and the books is that the traditionalist fantasy novel is basically a fascist, hyperviolent surprise sex fantasy. Martin has taken broad swipes at the fantasy genre and all of its subgenres.

Westeros is a realistic version of Robert E. Howard's lost Hyborian age, in that it mixes various historical peoples and eras under a broad blanket of a psuedo-middle ages vibe. You've got Vikings, Elizabethan pirates, Saxons, post-Reconquista Spanish, and High Middle Ages types bumping around with psuedo-Catholicism. Unlike Hyboria, though, Westeros doesn't glamorize the reaver, the slayer, and the thief, it plays them all as monsters and the only difference between them is how much lip service they pay to stories designed to reinforce their hyper violent, hypermasculine patriarchal system. Instead of glorying in Conan's conquests, it puts us in with the men he's butchering and the women he's raping as he treads the jeweled thrones of Earth beneath his sandalled feet.

# ? Jun 8, 2012 23:47

kiimo: Jul 24, 2003; I think your brain is going soft with all that comedy

Ambiguatron posted:

Daxos in the show is pretty beef, I wonder how much he can bench.

These are questions for wise men with skinny arms.

# ? Jun 8, 2012 23:49

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Ambiguatron posted:

the traditionalist fantasy novel is basically a fascist, hyperviolent surprise sex fantasy.

Sorry, got a pet peeve of mine right there: "fascist" doesn't mean "tyrannical". Hyboria and Middle-Earth and Azeroth are in no way fascisms - they lack the entire mass-ideological aspect plus a bunch of other stuff that only makes sense in a developed economy - they're just regular old autocracies, with a sprinkle of theocracy here and there.

# ? Jun 9, 2012 00:36

Thulsa Doom: Jun 20, 2011; Ezekiel 23:20

NihilCredo posted:

Sorry, got a pet peeve of mine right there: "fascist" doesn't mean "tyrannical". Hyboria and Middle-Earth and Azeroth are in no way fascisms - they lack the entire mass-ideological aspect plus a bunch of other stuff that only makes sense in a developed economy - they're just regular old autocracies, with a sprinkle of theocracy here and there.

The societies themselves are not fascist, but the fantasy is fascist.

Umberto Eco posted:

http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html

Both Fascists and Nazis worshipped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon blood and earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life. The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

# ? Jun 9, 2012 00:40

Maarak: May 23, 2007; "Go for it!"

NihilCredo posted:

Sorry, got a pet peeve of mine right there: "fascist" doesn't mean "tyrannical". Hyboria and Middle-Earth and Azeroth are in no way fascisms - they lack the entire mass-ideological aspect plus a bunch of other stuff that only makes sense in a developed economy - they're just regular old autocracies, with a sprinkle of theocracy here and there.

While I agree, this season managed to get some good mileage out of concentration camp/genocide imagery at Harrenhal.

# ? Jun 9, 2012 00:45

Medieval Medic: Sep 8, 2011

Let's not look at GRRM too deeply, he is no messiah of fantasy trying to show shades of grey, rather what would cause the most outrage.

# ? Jun 9, 2012 00:58

Macaluso: Sep 23, 2005; I HATE THAT HEDGEHOG, BROTHER!

Medieval Medic posted:

Let's not look at GRRM too deeply, he is no messiah of fantasy trying to show shades of grey.

I dunno, have you seen the sex scenes? He's more Shades of Grey than you think

# ? Jun 9, 2012 00:59

Tyree: Sep 10, 2003; STRETCH

STRETCH

STRETCH

How about a moment of silence for Ser Preston Greenfield, member of the Kingsguard. Sadly, he died during the riots and was never mentioned once in the show.

# ? Jun 9, 2012 01:00

Azure_Horizon: Mar 27, 2010; You can live in the wreckage and pretend it's the mansion you remember, or you can crawl from the rubble and move on.

Medieval Medic posted:

Let's not look at GRRM too deeply, he is no messiah of fantasy trying to show shades of grey, rather what would cause the most outrage.

It's not that far-fetched. Some of the things he's done with characters are very uncommon in the fantasy genre. The only other author I can think of who does it as frequently is Steven Erikson with the Malazan series, and that's not even a very good series.

He's not a "messiah of fantasy", but he does show shades of grey in both the genre and within the world of the books itself.

# ? Jun 9, 2012 01:04

Thulsa Doom: Jun 20, 2011; Ezekiel 23:20

Medieval Medic posted:

Let's not look at GRRM too deeply, he is no messiah of fantasy trying to show shades of grey, rather what would cause the most outrage.

It doesn't matter what he intends or is trying to do, the text speaks for itself. For all I know, he's playing it perfectly straight and he thinks this stuff is all cool beans. It doesn't matter.

# ? Jun 9, 2012 01:16

Away all Goats: Jul 5, 2005; Back from the dead

Tyree posted:

How about a moment of silence for Ser Preston Greenfield, member of the Kingsguard. Sadly, he died during the riots and was never mentioned once in the show.

What kind of wussy kingsguard gets taken down by starving peasants

# ? Jun 9, 2012 01:24

Professor Wayne: Aug 27, 2008; So, Harvey, what became of the giant penny?

They actually let him keep it.

Hiatus gif party. I picked out a favorite I made from each episode. The rest are linked. (as long as the threads aren't archived).

Episode 1 gifs

Episode 2 gifs

Episode 3 gifs

Episode 4 gifs

Episode 5 gifs

Episode 6 gifs

Episode 7 gifs

Episode 8 gifs

Episode 9 gifs. I didn't make very many.

Episode 10 gifs

And thanks Rarity, for honoring me with the Best Gif award in the op.

Professor Wayne fucked around with this message at Jun 9, 2012 around 02:43

# ? Jun 9, 2012 01:31

Thulsa Doom: Jun 20, 2011; Ezekiel 23:20

Dude, when the peasants are literally trying to devour your flesh, all bets are off. One dude with a sword can't fight off a whole mob.

Is there a gif of Ros with the stag sceptre, about to take the plunge?

e: Nevermind, I just had to scroll down.

I hope when they do special features they have a clip of Gleeson in character as Joffrey performing a monologue from American Psycho.

Thulsa Doom fucked around with this message at Jun 9, 2012 around 01:35

# ? Jun 9, 2012 01:32

Rarity: Oct 21, 2010; "What do we say to people who talk about the books?"

"Not today."

Professor Wayne posted:

Hiatus gif party.

The OP has the only gif we needed

(Just kidding, you're amazing

)

# ? Jun 9, 2012 01:50

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Ambiguatron posted:

The societies themselves are not fascist, but the fantasy is fascist.

Gotcha. But I think you've got it a little backwards - the epic/ancestral fantasy predates fascism (e.g. Romantic medievalism), and then got coopted as an element of its syncretism; it's fascist culture that was built on pre-existing sensibilities, not medieval fantasy that is a relic of fascism.

Calling it a 'fascist fantasy' is pretty unfair - it can focus on those aspects, standing next to your blood-brothers to slaughter the Enemies, but it's not inherent to the genre. And the more the world is explicitly feudal and pre-national, the harder it is to do that.

For that matter your whole post was pretty unfair, because you're skipping over the fact that escapist fantasy is white-washed on purpose. The knight-errant's victims are all villains and the swashbuckler's women all swoon at his codpiece - not because even the dumbest S&S writer isn't aware that that's not how knights and rogues lived, but because if it were an amoral surprise sex and murder fantasy it would lose 99% of its audience.

# ? Jun 9, 2012 01:57

kiimo: Jul 24, 2003; I think your brain is going soft with all that comedy

Professor Wayne posted:

Episode 10 gifs

Ha I never saw that you got around to fixing this gif up just like I asked, amazing.

# ? Jun 9, 2012 02:00

Jorghnassen: Oct 1, 2007; Glouton des fjords

Why did I guess that Ducksauce had purchased Al Capone's vault?

Anyway, 10 months is a long time to wait. I don't want to, but after I'm done reading the Complete Chronicles of Conan, I may contemplate buying the books. Like I started reading manga when the anime series took too long to finish, only to realize that there are over 500 chapters of Naruto and it's not even loving over yet. How many loving pages are there to this series? How many books before it's over?

# ? Jun 9, 2012 02:03

Azure_Horizon: Mar 27, 2010; You can live in the wreckage and pretend it's the mansion you remember, or you can crawl from the rubble and move on.

Jorghnassen posted:

Why did I guess that Ducksauce had purchased Al Capone's vault?

Anyway, 10 months is a long time to wait. I don't want to, but after I'm done reading the Complete Chronicles of Conan, I may contemplate buying the books. Like I started reading manga when the anime series took too long to finish, only to realize that there are over 500 chapters of Naruto and it's not even loving over yet. How many loving pages are there to this series? How many books before it's over?

Close to 5,000, with two more books planned.

# ? Jun 9, 2012 02:07

Thulsa Doom: Jun 20, 2011; Ezekiel 23:20

Currently, there are seven volumes planned, of which five are completed. Martin purports to have something like thirty percent of the next book done, but consisting mostly of excised material from the present volume.

If I remember right he planned for six volumes originally, but I suspect he always intended there to be seven, since seven is a big number in Westeros. (Faith of the Seven, Seven Kingdoms, seven knights of the Kingsguard, and so on)

# ? Jun 9, 2012 02:09

run DNC: Mar 24, 2007; O Muhammad, I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight

Ambiguatron posted:

Currently, there are seven volumes planned, of which five are completed. Martin purports to have something like thirty percent of the next book done, but consisting mostly of excised material from the present volume.

If I remember right he planned for six volumes originally, but I suspect he always intended there to be seven, since seven is a big number in Westeros. (Faith of the Seven, Seven Kingdoms, seven knights of the Kingsguard, and so on)

He planned for three when writing the first but it quickly ballooned to six then seven.

# ? Jun 9, 2012 02:45

Steve Yun: Aug 7, 2003; I
ANALYZE
CARTOONS

Maybe if every book gets split into two seasons it will buy GRRM time to finish writing

Edit: of course, if life is as cruel as his books, he'll keel over and his nephew will finish the last two books, and everyone will complain that he missed the whole point

Steve Yun fucked around with this message at Jun 9, 2012 around 02:59

# ? Jun 9, 2012 02:56

uPen: Jan 25, 2010; Zu Rodina!

Steve Yun posted:

Maybe if every book gets split into two seasons it will buy GRRM time to finish writing

Edit: of course, if life is as cruel as his books, he'll keel over and his nephew will finish the last two books, and everyone will complain that he missed the whole point

6 years for 2 books? There's no way. We'll be lucky if we get 1 book in that time.

# ? Jun 9, 2012 03:00

whowhatwhere: Mar 15, 2010

I'm sorry, but that just triggered the bad thread in me:

A Game of Throne - August 1996
A Clash of Kings - February 1999
A Storm of Swords - November 2000
A Feast for Crows - November 2005
A Dance with Dragons - July 2011

Yes, I'm sure that an extra two seasons is all that's needed to finish off the series.

Away all Goats posted:

What kind of wussy kingsguard gets taken down by starving peasants

Not only was he surrounded, but he was acting as a bodyguard. He wasn't trying to keep himself alive, he was keeping Joffrey and the royal party alive.

whowhatwhere fucked around with this message at Jun 9, 2012 around 03:05

# ? Jun 9, 2012 03:01