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Re: Rarity on Qarth The show was much worse here because they dragged Dany's story out and made her more unlikable, constantly screaming and threatening people all the time. Those two things are what made her story the worst on the show. Would you believe, non-book readers, that she doesn't yell even once during the book?
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| # ¿ Jun 8, 2012 13:25 |
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| # ¿ May 20, 2013 05:54 |
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SexyBlindfold posted:wow, what a lovely book But it makes up for it with a lot more Hot Pie interaction!
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| # ¿ Jun 8, 2012 13:56 |
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Maarak posted:How on earth could you prefer book Qarth? Dany has no agency, and spends her time going from meeting to meeting like someone on a business trip. I prefer her going around begging for ships and getting rejected than her going around demanding ships with fire and blood. The former makes me feel sorry for her, the latter just makes me hate her and makes it impossible for me to care about anything she's doing. And the house of the undying scene in the show can't even hope to compare to the book version.
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| # ¿ Jun 8, 2012 15:35 |
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It's also not accurate to say that Stannis spent the battle in a tent. You don't really know what he was doing but one character says he was fighting in the river while Loras took him in the rear.
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| # ¿ Jun 8, 2012 20:17 |
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Dwarsen posted:I have to say I prefered season 1, even though this one was great too. I guess the thing that irked me the most was that the "good guys" just couldn't loving catch a break. It felt like the "bad guys" were incompetent and awful but still won, for utterly arbitrary or random reasons. It annoyed me a bit. The thing is there aren't just good guys and bad guys. If Stannis won the war, then Tyrion would likely have been hanged. I don't know if that's what you're referring to or not. quote:I'm sure this was discussed in the appropriate thread, but when Robb reached the Twins and was negotiating with Walder Frey (or well, his mum was), how could Frey make all those ridiculous demands? Wasn't he supposed to be Robb's bannerman? Even if Robb isn't recognized all over Westeros as King of the North, he'd still be his subject and subjects wouldn't be able to make demands like that. Or is Frey just a Tully ally and therefore not technically on Robb's side? As Frey told Catelyn, he also swore oaths to the crown as well as the Starks.
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| # ¿ Jun 8, 2012 20:55 |
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Ambiguatron posted:I think the show made a mistake changing one detail of the scene; in the book, Sansa touches the burned half of his face, and he leaves immediately without threatening her any further. I find that a lot more powerful than the "you won't hurt me" line. The actress did an excellent job delivering it, I find fault with the writers. I agree it with you and it's weird because GRRM wrote the episode. It's the only awkward lines in the episode that otherwise easily has the best dialogue of the season.
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| # ¿ Jun 9, 2012 17:27 |
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precision posted:I just wrapped up a rewatch of both seasons and I honestly think that episode has by far the worst dialogue in the bunch. So many cringeworthy dick/surprise sex/sex jokes. SO many. Not to mention the Queen having her normally heavy-handed mustache-twirling dialed up to 11,000 (and also making Everything About Sex with her "Hey Sansa, your most powerful weapon is your VAGINA"). That is 100% her character. She is someone that sees sex as her best weapon. See: Not giving a poo poo one way or the other about Lancel but having sex with him to get him to do whatever she wants. That it was the first episode where it seems like the show actually got Cersei and of course gave Lena Headey the opportunity for her best work of the series. I don't remember any of these surprise sex/sex jokes. Cersei telling Sansa she'll look like a slice of cake to the invading men isn't a joke. She's simply telling the truth about sacked cities.
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| # ¿ Jun 9, 2012 20:57 |
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kiimo posted:I loved every one of those lines. Yeah, I didn't remember them but now that I see them, it's just a harmless way to lighten the mood. What's really awful dialogue is every sexposition scene and every time a character goes into a past story to add emotion to their current situation. Yara talking about Theon as a baby and Talisa/Robb from three episodes ago. So cheesy and cliche. I love that the Blackwater episode seemed to poke fun at that by Varys threatening to go into a backstory.
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| # ¿ Jun 10, 2012 00:06 |
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Toast Museum posted:In the book he actually does tell Tyrion a story, so I'd guess it was more a time constraint. Not as Tyrion was about to fight in a battle though. Would have been real awkward.
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| # ¿ Jun 10, 2012 00:13 |
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KamikazePotato posted:Arya's arc in Book 2 is likely going to get spread out Season 3+4, and for anyone who's read the book and seen the show it is very obvious why they are doing it that way. I seriously doubt it's been cut out entirely. I assume that's that's true. But still, something should have changed her at Harranhal. It feels like she's the same character at the end of the season that she was at the start. That's not a good writing adaptation IMO, considering how much Harranhal forever changed her in the book. Also it was fine replacing her scenes with Tywin in the middle of the season, but towards the end, they gave her almost nothing to do. In the last 3-4 episodes, they just took out some of her scenes and replaced them with nothing.
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| # ¿ Jun 10, 2012 19:46 |
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If you haven't read the books, pick them up and read just during this hour every week.
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| # ¿ Jun 11, 2012 01:05 |
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Mitthrawnuruodo posted:Case in point: Renly. Okay, so the Tyrells were important to the denouement, and his wife has shown up, but the way we were delivered all the Renly stuff felt like we were being asked to care for these characters in the long run, and then nope, dead. It's not for nothing. It's important to establish that Renly was well liked and his relationships because it was crucial to understanding why the Tyrells would want to side with the Lannisters, the people they were at war with. To get revenge on Stannis for killing Renly.
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| # ¿ Jun 12, 2012 13:56 |
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Vigilance posted:He's not even a prisoner any more, or it seems unlikely he'll remain one. The skull dude undid Jon's bindings after he killed Qhorin. He seems to have gained their trust. Why would he have gained their trust? To them, it would have just looked like Jon killed Qhorin because his mother was insulted. Did Jon even say he wanted to join them?
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| # ¿ Jun 12, 2012 21:22 |
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uG posted:I'm pretty sure Qhorin was accusing Jon (out loud) of being a traitor while attacking him to give Jon some credibility. But that shouldn't give him any credibility. Qhorin kept attacking Jon and saying nasty stuff about him so Jon killed him. (So it should seem to the Lord of Bones) That doesn't begin to imply that Jon actually wants to join the Wildlings.
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| # ¿ Jun 13, 2012 00:01 |
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Vigilance posted:Lets not forget it's not some random Night's Watchman Jon killed. It's Qhorin Halfhand, a guy legendary enough that even the Wildings appear to know him by name. Killing him is like someone in the King's Guard turning around and killing Selmy (before Joffrey threw him out) because he called them bad names. It's a big thing. A big thing but a thing that doesn't necessarily mean he's switching sides. If Selmy insulted the Mountain, you wouldn't think the Mountain was wanting to switch sides when he tried to kill Selmy. Even the Hound saying "gently caress the king" to the king's face doesn't mean he wants to switch sides to Stannis.
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| # ¿ Jun 13, 2012 00:40 |
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whowhatwhere posted:Well, in the book Jon volunteered to switch instead of die (Ygritte was there and said 'hey, he let me go, let's give him a chance), and then Qhorin tries to kill him for being a traitor. It played much more convincingly than the show scene. I knew that.  I just wanted to see if any show-only fans could make sense out of what happened on the screen. Answer unfortunately seems to be "no".One of the many reasons I don't think there's any question that the finale was the worst written and plotted episode of the series.
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| # ¿ Jun 13, 2012 12:59 |
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Ash Lael posted:I really don't know how some people can prefer book Qarth. Spice King owned. Because Show Dany does not own. Show Dany is the opposite of owns.
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| # ¿ Jun 13, 2012 16:48 |
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Maarak posted:Show Dany has internal drive and agency, Book Dany wanders around Qarth getting fed exposition unless there's something I'm forgetting. Walking around getting exposition is the case for the show, not the book really. Xaro doesn't tell her about his past in the book, he just tries to get her to marry her. And the wandering around happens in a single chapter. In the show, it was basically the entire season.
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| # ¿ Jun 13, 2012 17:29 |
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Ambiguatron posted:That's pretty much it. She's invited cordially by the Undying and burns down their hoise and murdera them, and no one even mentions her breach of guest rights. Wow. You haven't read the House of the Undying chapter in awhile, have you? When her dragon started to burn everything, one of the Undying's teeth were on her throat. They invited her there to kill her. Are you really remembering the chapter that badly?
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| # ¿ Jun 13, 2012 17:48 |
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Episode 19 is the worst written because it has a few bad throwaway jokes that are inconsequential to the plot. That's comparable to other episodes which are so poorly written that the stories are incomprehensible. (Jon and Qhorin in the finale) Or episodes that put you to sleep with long boring exposition dialogue. (Robb/Talisa, Doreah/Viserys in the bathtub, every single scene with Ros) Really? What about all the brilliant Cersei/Hound/Stannis stuff in that episode?
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| # ¿ Jun 14, 2012 10:03 |
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Mister Roboto posted:She's about 13-14 in the books when the tv show starts (but clearly they aged her up about at least 2+ years for legal reasons). She doesn't have a problem with Drogo being way older than her. At least not now she doesn't. I think she's supposed to be at the bare minimum 18 when it starts, isn't she? Of course her actress is like 25 or 26.
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| # ¿ Jun 14, 2012 14:44 |
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Well, I picked up "A Game of Thrones", I only had a few hours to read so far so I'm only at about page 160 when Bran wakes up and names his Direwolf, which is a very cool scene, but I feel I already have some stuff worthy of discussion. I know I'm relatively biased in favor of the show but I feel most of this is valid. Keep these coming. These are interesting. From memory, I do remember Robert/Ned's first talk being better in the show but I think when the kids found the direwolves and Ned talked to Bran about why he had to kill that guy, it was better in the book. Also, you're saying you have a better time imagining characters motivations now, but I doubt you'll still be saying it when you get to Jon/Qhorin. The first episode was a near perfect adapation. They don't always do a good job of capturing the characterization in the books as this episode did.
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| # ¿ Jun 15, 2012 13:39 |
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Ambiguatron posted:He still cared for Theon after all he'd done. Even more sadder in the books because he thought Theon really did kill Bran and Rickon and he was still giving him advice to save his life.
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| # ¿ Jun 16, 2012 15:48 |
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In It For The Tank posted:I admit "demands" was probably the wrong word to use but the implication is clearly there that Jaime pushed Bran because Cersei wanted him to. Cersei didn't want him to do it. -Clash of Kings after Tyrion and Cersei learn what Theon did to Bran and Rickon quote:“I trust you’re pleased,” he said as she read. “You wanted the Stark boy dead, I believe.”
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| # ¿ Jun 16, 2012 23:13 |
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I haven't seen anything in season 3 get spoiled. Are you sure?
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| # ¿ Jun 17, 2012 01:28 |
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Ash Lael posted:You're wrong about everything. Jon/Qhorin was worse on the show, but Ygritte's dick talk more than made up for that. And nearly everything else is better. At first they wouldn't like the Arya/Tywin scenes being gone, but then they would have to be impressed that they gave Arya something to do besides talking. The book would actually have made her grow as a character and given her an arc. People would have to admit, if they're being honest, that making Harranhal a more dangerous place does more for her character and story than simply talking to Tywin.
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| # ¿ Jun 19, 2012 13:08 |
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KamikazePotato posted:Arya's arc in the book was better, but her scenes with Tywin were still amazing, and the arc will probably be spread out over the next two seasons, so does it really matter? Even if that's the case, I'll still say that I found her book 2 story more interesting than her season 2 story. Perhaps I'll like her season 3 story better than her book 3 story when that happens. When I really missed, even more than what usually gets mentioned, was all of her opportunities to show off her bravery. In Clash of Kings, she risks her life in deciding not to leave Hot Pie and Lemmy behind when Gendry tells her they're slowing them down, she risks her life to try to rescue Gendry (this is how they were caught and brought to Harranhal), she risks her life to try to save prisoners, she risks her life by leaving Harranhal on her own. In the show, there's none of that. I have a bad feeling that they won't give her new things to do to risk her life to replace these. Those things I mentioned are likely just dropped and forgotten about. quote:Dany has an actual arc in the show (as opposed to a bunch of dicking around in the book), which is far more important than making Qarth the city more interesting. Dany's one of my favorite characters in the books. In the show, I find her to be completely unlikable and I hate when she comes on. She's a petulant spoiled child. I can't say I'm a fan of the changes to her story. In fact, I would call that the worst changes.
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| # ¿ Jun 19, 2012 14:18 |
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Occupation posted:If you do something dumb and no negative consequences result from it, functionally it's the same as not doing something dumb. I got that from TV Arya, not book Arya. She makes smart alecky comments to Tywin, stares him down, and reveals way too much information about herself and suffers no negative consequences. Backtalking Reese in the books gets her slapped. Book Arya makes the dumb decision of relying on Hot Pie to sneak past the guards and gets caught for it and sent to Harranhal.
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| # ¿ Jun 19, 2012 17:31 |
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I never thought I'd see the day when people said Dany should have been more sympathetic to her abusive brother who sold her against her will as a sex slave to a barbarian. That's one opinion I honestly never thought I would read.
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| # ¿ Jun 20, 2012 12:04 |
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emanresu tnuocca posted:'Tis lucky then that it's not really what I said, I said the way things happened in the show made her more sympathetic because she 'had it in her' to be so compassionate to her broken and abusive brother. Did you not just call her queen bitch of the universe for wanting to humiliate her brother who was abusive to her for her whole life? If anything, I was too nice in rephrasing that. Super Ninja Fish fucked around with this message at Jun 20, 2012 around 13:45 |
| # ¿ Jun 20, 2012 13:37 |
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I think that Show Joffrey is also more sympathetic than Book Joffrey, my opinion so far is that most 'villain' characters are portrayed in a far more convincing manner, they're shown to have layers of complexity. It's never outright said, but it's definitely implied. Do you really get the impression that when he's twisting her nipples and telling her she doesn't want to wake the dragon that he means he's just going to yell her a lot? I didn't and don't know why you would. In the show, when he tells her that she's woken the dragon, he begins by hitting her. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD43NtzTe6g
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| # ¿ Jun 21, 2012 11:31 |
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Occupation posted:Incidentally, the second book sucks and is terrible and is a massive waste of loving time to read and between Rarity's OP which lists what has changed and the wiki entry for ACOK you'll get the gist of everything that happened that the second season didn't show. Occupation posted:The Dany storyline alone is just awful, tedious, poorly paced poo poo and is literally half of the book so just based off that and nothing else (and dear god was the Dany storyline nowhere near the only problem in ACOK) I would call ACOK bad. Are you from the bad thread making bad opinions to gently caress new readers over? The Dany storyline is half the book? The Dany storyline that is just five chapters? (Out of a book of 70) And one of them being the House of the Undying, a chapter that's almost considered to be unanimously excellent and one of the best chapters in the series? Dany without a doubt has less grating of a personality in CoK than she does in Season 2 as well. Suggesting to skip book 2 in favor of reading a summary is the worst advice. Edit: Holy poo poo.. "Ask the bad thread." I missed that. Gotta be a joke. Super Ninja Fish fucked around with this message at Aug 18, 2012 around 23:42 |
| # ¿ Aug 18, 2012 23:36 |
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kiimo posted:You don't have to read the books not to hate this scene you just have to have a modicum of patience for cliffhangers. It would have been one thing if they actually made it seem like it was a cliffhanger. Most people's reactions seemed to be not "I can't wait to see what happened" but instead "I'm confused. That makes no goddamn sense."
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| # ¿ Aug 27, 2012 15:02 |
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Met posted:For the better in some situations. For Season/Book 2, I enjoyed Arya's story in the show more so than in the book. I just can't understand how that's possible. The scenes with Tywin were neat but at the expense of all of her development? Removing the dangerous feel of Harrenhal? The opportunities to show her heroism, such as when she risked her life to save prisoners? Trying to get Gendry and Hot Pie to help her but both of them being too scared to do it? How she made the decision to escape and leave on her own without help from Jaqen? The show just had her simply walk out of Harrenhal after getting her wish granted. I couldn't loving believe it. I feel bad for people watching who haven't read the books. Arya's chapters in CoK are among my favorite chapters in the series. I don't think what translated to screen was even close. Although it's not nearly as disappointing as what they did to poor Jon this year.
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| # ¿ Sep 28, 2012 10:47 |
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TheBigBad posted:Well, I came to the books via the show. The show is an adaptation not a literal translation and I'm sure thats been hashed ad nauseum in at least one of these GoT threads. In that case, then they should have given Dany something interesting to do. Instead they just dragged her story out. This seemed to be the #1 complaint last year even from people who haven't read the books. "Jesus, when will she go to the House of the Undying already?" I also don't feel the HotU they gave us was strong enough to justify the wait. There's a final Dany chapter in the second book that the show didn't get to yet. I think that chapter could have been a decent end to her story of the season and the House of the Undying could have happened earlier, which would have eliminated that dragging feel. In addition, they made Dany unlikable. She's constantly demanding things and throwing tantrums. She makes her enemies starve to death, what the hell. That's something Joffrey would do, not Dany. I have almost no sympathy for her character anymore after that. quote:For budgetary concerns you really can't ship that many Men of the Black to the arctic with horses and white walkers (which are done with humans in prosthetics instead of CG) for that many days of shooting- so because of the format and the limitations we can't really expect it to be a translation of the book but it does in fact get the story from the books across. Jon's story was disappointing not because it lacked Men of the black and horses and white walkers but because it lacked his relationship with Qhorin and any emotion. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpos...postcount=15501 This was probably one of the best conversations in the book. The ending to Jon's season 2 story should have contained this kind of emotion. It's inexcusable than it didn't. Other disappointments: Arya: First half of the season was good. Second half, not so much. She had it way too easy. They removed the sense of danger, gave her a grandfatherly figure, and at the end, she simply strolled out of Harranhal and received a coin. That's lousy. If they don't want to do what the book did, that's fine, but please put something else in it's place to make up for it. In comparison to the book, her story in the second half is very uneventful and mundane. Arya was my favorite story in the book so this was the most disappointing part of the series for me. Winterfell ending: 95% of the viewers who hadn't read the books were left confused and not in a good way. Robb's decision to marry Talisa and Catelyn's decision to free Jaime: Their choices had none of the emotional gravity that they had in the book. Due to a particular head scratching change. Catelyn's talk with Jaime: IMO the best chapter and conversation in the book. Here, it was stripped down to about 2 minutes. I don't buy that they didn't have time when so many long exposition (in many cases unnecessary) scenes were added for the show. This very episode had a new scene between Jaime and his cousin that went way way way too long. And a rather pointless exposition scene on the history of Harrenhal. Super Ninja Fish fucked around with this message at Dec 4, 2012 around 11:05 |
| # ¿ Dec 4, 2012 10:45 |
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Vigilance posted:Wait how is Shae better in the book? She's got literally no characterization at all. She's just a meek chick that Tyrion fucks every once in a while. Agree on the rest apart from Dany who is no worse than her book counterpart. She's basically the same character, with all the good and bad (mostly bad) that entails. She's hardly the same character. Book Dany would never in a million years have locked people in a room and have them starve to death. She's not Joffrey. Book Dany would never have went around yelling and threatening people for entrance into cities and ships. In the book, she's begging and just being depressed that no one will help her. The only time her mean side comes out in the books are when people actually deserve her wrath.
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| # ¿ Jan 5, 2013 17:50 |
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Friendly Factory posted:Like, say, when they murder all of your buddies and steal your dragons? By mean side, I meant her yelling. If you mean yelling too, yep, that was one of the few times her yelling was not annoying. If you mean torturing people by letting them starve to death... well you can't mean that, because that would mean you're insane. She is basically on Joffrey's level after that. Super Ninja Fish fucked around with this message at Jan 5, 2013 around 18:38 |
| # ¿ Jan 5, 2013 18:28 |
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VDay posted:Yeah I never noticed it changing at all and wouldn't have known that it was A Thing if I hadn't seen it in this thread. (I'm MURICAN) I've seen each episode many many times and I still have no idea what people are talking about. I don't hear anything weird.
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| # ¿ Mar 8, 2013 19:31 |
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Gianthogweed posted:I like how, in this show, they go out of their way to make every character have some good qualities and bad qualities. Sure some characters have more good qualities than others, but even the despicable ones, ie. Jaime, has some likeable traits. Joffrey has one likable trait I can think of. He cares for his father. He cried when Robert was dying. Also, remember that as far as he knows, Ned really was a traitor and was telling the truth when he confessed to plotting to murder him.
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| # ¿ Mar 13, 2013 15:39 |
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| # ¿ May 20, 2013 05:54 |
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Sri.Theo posted:Its really confusing me how you think this is a good idea. The strengths of the series are character, plot and sometime dialogue, that's what people watch the show for. Memorising facts about a fictional universe is probably the most boring thing in the world and I can imagine that only a tiny percentage of people would bother watching it. This is exactly why the scenes that are just made for the sake of exposition are the worst in the series, whether it be sexposition or Tywin telling Arya about Harranhal or Talisa talking about what her become a nurse. It's always awkward and almost always unnecessary. I hope they knock that off for Season 3. The more casual fan is probably not going to remember about Harranhal's history because they're not going to memorize pointless facts. It just makes the show drag. I find with new fans if you're introducing someone to the show, all you need to do spent 30 seconds telling them who the most important people in the story are and how they're related. The Stark family, the king, the queen and two brothers, and Dany and her brother. Once they know that, they won't be confused. Without that, it may take a couple episodes. There certainly doesn't need to be a documentary, just 30 seconds. It's unfortunate but most people seem to need a little more of an introduction than the one given in the show. I just talked to a coworker who watched the first two episodes and didn't even realize that Jamie and Cersei were brother and sister.
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| # ¿ Mar 20, 2013 14:51 |
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