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Jedit posted:Well, now we all know which side you're on. The Internationale is explicitly about people of all nations standing together, as separately they will be destroyed. Quick! Lynch him!
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Jun 22, 2012 14:17
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I would really like people's opinions on how Scotland will fund its HE system: seriously, everyone who has squirted their bombast all over the last page should jock-up and give their arguments about practical matters.
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Jun 22, 2012 15:05
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Jedit posted:This is endemic to national anthems of a certain age. In the Jacobite period God Save The Queen had a verse added about crushing the rebellious Scots, and the first verse of Deutschland Uber Alles is traditionally only sung on special occasions like when a German is incredibly stupid and/or wants to piss everybody off. And the American anthem has a verse about the footsteps of the British being "foul pollution" which gets washed away by their own blood. Anthems sure are lovely!
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Jun 22, 2012 15:17
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GuestBob posted:I would really like people's opinions on how Scotland will fund its HE system: seriously, everyone who has squirted their bombast all over the last page should jock-up and give their arguments about practical matters. Normally, I'd expect. Why? Are you one of those people who think that leftist states only work because they siphon money away from their betters?
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Jun 22, 2012 15:31
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Install Gentoo posted:And the American anthem has a verse about the footsteps of the British being "foul pollution" which gets washed away by their own blood. Let's not forget the French anthem which talks of foreign soldiers killing our wives and our sons and whose impure blood must water our furrows.  And that's the main stanza.
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Jun 22, 2012 17:02
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Jedit posted:Well, now we all know which side you're on. The Internationale is explicitly about people of all nations standing together, as separately they will be destroyed. Yep, and the English can give us a call when they're ready to stand together with the people of all nations!
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Jun 22, 2012 19:38
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Reveilled posted:Yep, and the English can give us a call when they're ready to stand together with the people of all nations! So, is this saying that England must be the vanguard country of the revolution? Or the opposite? Communism is so confusing when it's just something tacked onto nationalism.
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Jun 22, 2012 21:15
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Deep Thought posted:So, is this saying that England must be the vanguard country of the revolution? Or the opposite? Communism is so confusing when it's just something tacked onto nationalism. Yeah, it was such a cop-out when Cuba didn't halt the revolution while they waited for America to join.
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Jun 22, 2012 21:24
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Deep Thought posted:So, is this saying that England must be the vanguard country of the revolution? Or the opposite? Communism is so confusing when it's just something tacked onto nationalism. It was a half-joke response to what I hope was a non-serious jab. I'm not a nationalist. I'm no more supportive of Scotland as a national entity than I am of Britain. What I want within the context of the independence debate is tangible social and economic change where I live within my own lifetime, and as far as I can see the best chance I have of getting that is through independence. I'd like for others to share those benefits, but I feel no more obligated to the English than I do any other cultural or national group and the question of whether humanity as a whole is benefitted by the United Kingdom remaining united is something rather ambiguous, so in the absence of compelling evidence to that end, I'm going to stick with advancing the former desire.
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Jun 22, 2012 21:36
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Reveilled posted:It was a half-joke response to what I hope was a non-serious jab. I'm not a nationalist. I'm no more supportive of Scotland as a national entity than I am of Britain. What I want within the context of the independence debate is tangible social and economic change where I live within my own lifetime, and as far as I can see the best chance I have of getting that is through independence. I'd like for others to share those benefits, but I feel no more obligated to the English than I do any other cultural or national group and the question of whether humanity as a whole is benefitted by the United Kingdom remaining united is something rather ambiguous, so in the absence of compelling evidence to that end, I'm going to stick with advancing the former desire. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm half-Scottish and have lived here since a young age, but sharing English and Scottish family probably makes me conflicted. It just seems as though the debate cannot help but bring up suspicions of nationalist sympathies. I've seen independence phrased as a question of 'national liberation' on libcom, with the view that an English opinion on the matter is offensive. And that's between anarchists. Jonnty posted:Yeah, it was such a cop-out when Cuba didn't halt the revolution while they waited for America to join. So, is this saying that the referendum is the revolution, and the SNP is... the 26th of July Movement? Deep Thought fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jun 22, 2012 |
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Jun 22, 2012 23:02
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GuestBob posted:I would really like people's opinions on how Scotland will fund its HE system: seriously, everyone who has squirted their bombast all over the last page should jock-up and give their arguments about practical matters. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, the same way they're going to pay for primary and secondary education: taxation.
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Jun 22, 2012 23:08
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Deep Thought posted:So, is this saying that the referendum is the revolution, and the SNP is... the 26th of July Movement? I'm saying that supporting independence is entirely consistent with socialist views. What are you saying?
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Jun 23, 2012 00:34
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Jedit posted:Well, now we all know which side you're on. The Internationale is explicitly about people of all nations standing together, as separately they will be destroyed. Still, you have to admit "We'll shoot the generals on our own side" is the best line in any national anthem ever.
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Jun 23, 2012 06:20
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Konstantin posted:Still, you have to admit "We'll shoot the generals on our own side" is the best line in any national anthem ever. It has a certain charm, I'll admit, but like the rest of the song it has little to offer from the perspective of sensible leadership. Presented for your listening pleasure: The Internationale, haiku edition. Hey, you poor bastards The world is totally hosed Let's kill rich people!
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Jun 23, 2012 10:57
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Guess that's it, guys. Pack it in. Let's all become sensible unionist liberals instead.
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Jun 23, 2012 11:17
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My flatmates and I met a guy who works for an SNP MSP at Holyrood in the pub last night and got to talking about independence. Apparently the SNP don't even know what terms they're going for, but I suppose it's more than his job's worth to say anything. Then he started taking pot-shots at Patrick Harvie but totally not for messing with the yes campaign.
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Jun 23, 2012 11:28
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John Charity Spring posted:Guess that's it, guys. Pack it in. Let's all become sensible unionist liberals instead. Because of course, there is no middle ground between extremist revolutionary calls for fire and blood and wanting to stay in the Union.
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Jun 23, 2012 12:05
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Jedit posted:Because of course, there is no middle ground between extremist revolutionary calls for fire and blood and wanting to stay in the Union. If there was you wouldn't be talking to revolutionaries.
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Jun 23, 2012 16:50
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Jedit posted:Because of course, there is no middle ground between extremist revolutionary calls for fire and blood and wanting to stay in the Union. Tell us of this Third Way 
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Jun 23, 2012 17:43
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Jedit posted:Because of course, there is no middle ground between extremist revolutionary calls for fire and blood and wanting to stay in the Union.
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Jun 23, 2012 23:09
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Jedit posted:Hey, you poor bastards
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Jun 23, 2012 23:42
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Indeterminacy posted:Never mind no middle ground - I'm not even sure whether there is in fact any justified difference. Of course there's a difference. Nationalism is by definition something you feel strongly about, whereas most of the pro-Union faction don't support independence because they don't feel strongly about it. Only a fool would claim that there aren't fanatics on both sides, but your typical supporter of the Union is looking puzzled and wondering why it's so important to change something that works. I doubt there are half as many people on the other side of the debate thinking "Independence? I guess so, if you like."
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Jun 24, 2012 01:14
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Does anyone know what Scotland gaining independence would mean for people with Scottish ancestry being able to live/work in Scotland? My Grandma is Scottish which allows me to apply for an "Ancestry visa" and basically immigrate to the UK-- can anyone wager a guess as to whether Scotland would retain this or create something similar?
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Jun 24, 2012 04:41
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fyo posted:Does anyone know what Scotland gaining independence would mean for people with Scottish ancestry being able to live/work in Scotland? My Grandma is Scottish which allows me to apply for an "Ancestry visa" and basically immigrate to the UK-- can anyone wager a guess as to whether Scotland would retain this or create something similar? Too early to say. They'll probably retain any systems they have to let skilled workers in areas where there are shortages migrate to Scotland. This (PDF) suggests that Scotland has a slightly higher % of vacancies that can't be filled due to a skill shortage, so it's probably not going to go anywhere. Any system would probably be for Scottish immigration only - immigration rules are continually being tightened in England / the rest of the UK. It can also be a pain if you want to go on holiday to other EU countries. I have a friend who is South African, and the amount of grief he has to go through just to go on holiday and spend money in other EU countries is absurd.
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Jun 24, 2012 12:05
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Jedit posted:Only a fool would claim that there aren't fanatics on both sides, but your typical supporter of the Union is looking puzzled and wondering why it's so important to change something that works. It seems there are two viable positions: Change the Union or Run like gently caress. It's the latter that seems far less revolutionary. Edit: To clarify, I'm advocating a position in defense of Scottish independence that is not nationalism per se except in as much as it sees "Anyone But England" as an actual national identity. It doesn't need to feel particularly strongly about the importance of a "Scottish" Identity; it just needs to feel a particular disconnect from "English" identity. Indeterminacy fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 12:39
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Milotic posted:Too early to say. They'll probably retain any systems they have to let skilled workers in areas where there are shortages migrate to Scotland. I can cite at least one example (the Fresh Talent Initiative) of Scotland having held a more liberal immigration policy disposition than England.
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Jun 24, 2012 12:44
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-18572750 Gee whizz, what good reasons to stay..... And just for added reference:  I'm not entirely sure what point the first image is trying to get across. How exactly would independence change the employability of workers? Would England be as so arrogant as to close down all borders? (i'm gathering by Darling's statement that independence would be a "one way ticket" that yes, yes they would close the borders). Also the second image literally means nothing.
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Jun 25, 2012 15:42
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"Nice jobs you got there, Jock. Shame if anything happened to them."
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Jun 25, 2012 15:47
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Perhaps these English, Welsh, and Northern Irish firms would maintain their operations even in an independent Scotland. I know it doesn't often happen, but they could be the first examples of 'multi' 'national' firms.
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Jun 25, 2012 15:49
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So is UK going to be United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland if Scotland leaves? Oh, and please become a republic if you become independent. Less monarchies, constitutional or not in the world, the better. Keeping an unelected non-secular rich as gently caress head of state seems to be utterly contrary to the reasons why SNP wants to leave the Union.
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Jun 25, 2012 16:50
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We'll keep the Queen as head of state, and as much as I'm against the monarchy, I think it's a shrewd political move: one less thing to argue about while talking independence, and it can always be rectified later.
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Jun 25, 2012 16:54
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DarkCrawler posted:So is UK going to be United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland if Scotland leaves? Yeah there's no way we'll get rid of the Queen. Too many people love her. She's just like all our grans! What I am saying is we should wait until she pops her clogs and then tell the rest of them to bugger off.
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Jun 25, 2012 17:22
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Why is Alastair Darling leading the anti-independence campaign, I thought most people hated him?
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Jun 25, 2012 17:29
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Badger of Basra posted:Why is Alastair Darling leading the anti-independence campaign, I thought most people hated him? It is because the No camp are hilariously inept. Also because most politicians who don't support independence are hateful shits, so there's not much choice.
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Jun 25, 2012 17:32
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To be fair, so are a lot of the pro-independence politicians. Our political system.
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Jun 25, 2012 17:36
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John Charity Spring posted:To be fair, so are a lot of the pro-independence politicians. Let's state the one thing we can all agree on: in the sentence "most of the X politicians are hateful shits", X is redundant.
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Jun 25, 2012 19:44
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Etherwind posted:We'll keep the Queen as head of state, and as much as I'm against the monarchy, I think it's a shrewd political move: one less thing to argue about while talking independence, and it can always be rectified later. Will you have a Governor-General then?
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Jun 25, 2012 22:07
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DarkCrawler posted:Will you have a Governor-General then? We aren't a colony, so no. We'd just continue as before except as an independent country. I'm sure the Queen and her family will continue to spend time in Scotland shooting our wildlife, so she can pop down to open parliament every now and again.
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Jun 25, 2012 22:27
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DarkCrawler posted:Will you have a Governor-General then? Probably not. Ireland didn't when they got Home Rule, they kept the king before they declared themselves a republic in the 40s. Governer-Generals aren't necessary if there isn't much distance. I suppose it depends on the Queen's motility. If she can't make it up to Edinburgh to give royal assent in person, some lickspittle will fill in for her. If that happens I hope they get a better title than Governer-General. High Steward would be pretty historical since that's what the old High Stewards used to do: exercise the royal prerogative in lieu. WMain00 posted:And just for added reference:
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Jun 25, 2012 22:30
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I think the point trying to be made by the 1 in 5 isn't that 1 in 5 jobs will leave Scotland if Scotland leaves the Union, but that those companies may not have chosen to base their operations in Scotland had it not been part of the Union. It's not a brilliantly put point, but I feel the campaign is playing towards "stronger together" rather than "weaker alone". Something else just struck me regarding Devo Max. If Salmond did get that option pushed through, he wouldn't have to disband the SNP because Scotland would still not be independent.
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Jun 26, 2012 00:12
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