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computers posted:The RT version has a netbook screen and netbook like specs. It is the blazing power of a netbook with the awkward form factor of a transformer. Keep in mind, I'm not too convinced about the Pro version of the Surface. But the RT does seem to fill a niche that Apple hasn't, productivity-wise. -Netbook screen: there's no way for any of us to fully know until Microsoft gives more information. From what the tech blogs out there have been saying, the viewing angles are pretty great, something you won't find on 99% of netbooks. Microsoft is tossing around the term "ClearType HD". So far, that is just vague PR bullshit, but I would assume (hope, really) the screen will at least match the iPad 1/2, whose screens completely rape your average 1024x600 netbook. -Netbook-like specs: that's the big question, yeah. I fear you might be right. But once again, we won't know for a while. If it can browse the net as fast as the iPad 2/3, and can handle 50+ pages Word docs, I won't complain too much. -If you're going to buy an ultra thin laptop to last through an entire day (and 5 hours is certainly not that), then you have to go for a 13" or 15", which is an entirely different product category, especially when it comes to weight/price. I'm not sure there's any ultrabook out there with decent sub 13" screens, 7+ hours battery life, and a REALLY good keyboard for under $799. USB/Bluetooth on the Surface means I can at the very least use my keyboard of choice if I need to do some heavy writing while away from my desktop. -Tablets with better screens AND mouse/keyboard support in what will (hopefully?) be a $499/599 product for the RT version? That eliminates the iPad (Jailbroken iPad with BTkeyboard/BTmouse is just...no), leaving what, Android tablets? I'm not a fan of Android at all, but I'm genuinely curious: is there any Android tablet in that price range, with a 10" screen, that doesn't suck utter poo poo and has a wide selection of apps, with full mouse/keyboard support? If that's the case, I guess Windows/Office VS Android would become the only remaining factor to take into account before purchase. Internaut! posted:So in other words as a professional writer, you're really looking forward to the experience of writing on a Microsoft Surface tablet with a keyboard and mouse attached. It seems a very tempting alternative to the iPad, at least. If you want a lightweight tablet, that is. Portability is an important factor for me, but obviously that might not apply to everyone. If I can stop dragging around both a tablet/e-reader and a laptop, and instead have a device that allows me to tackle Word docs with no compatibility issues while retaining the functions of a tablet, I'd be pretty satisfied. I'm not arguing that a Surface could even remotely compare to typing on a Lenovo machine. Clever burn, well played, you sunk my battleship, and so on, but that got me thinking: do people actually get paid to do that poo poo? Not write articles, but leave comments? On blogs? Jesus. Hip Gelatinous Cube fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 13:54
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Hip Gelatinous Cube posted:Keep in mind, I'm not too convinced about the Pro version of the Surface. But the RT does seem to fill a niche that Apple hasn't, productivity-wise. While netbooks are lovely in many ways, if the RT version of the tablet had the computing power of a netbook it would be many times faster than any ARM based tablet that exists today. Comparing the RT tablet to a netbook is no real comparison at all.
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Jun 19, 2012 14:24
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I hope the Pro version includes the ability to add it to AD and monitor with SCCM. Integrating and monitoring iPads is a huge pain in the rear end without 3rd party software. It'd be nice if these Windows tablets just integrated seamlessly in a corporate environment.
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Jun 19, 2012 14:32
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I carry a good compact multi tool. It is neither a great knife nor a great pair of pliers. It is a good enough knife and a good enough pair of pliers for me to love the tool because of its compact nature. Surface doesn't have to be the best ultrabook or the best tablet for it to be the best device for many as long as the tablet and keyboard are good enough for their needs because having the two as one device is a feature unto itself. Whether or not Surface is good enough in these areas remains to be seen, but saying someone shouldn't be interested in it because, as a hybrid device, it can't be as good as dedicated devices...well that's ridiculous.
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Jun 19, 2012 14:33
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TheRevolution1 posted:While netbooks are lovely in many ways, if the RT version of the tablet had the computing power of a netbook it would be many times faster than any ARM based tablet that exists today. Comparing the RT tablet to a netbook is no real comparison at all. Yeah, you and Computers are absolutely right, no doubt about that. I mean, I understand that even the 1.6ghz Atom netbooks technically have a lot more processing power, but I had in mind that Windows RT would be something akin to what iOS is to OS X when it comes to running on ARM-based devices. Meaning: its' not so much about processing power as it is about well-optimized software taking full advantage of the hardware in order to do what it needs to. However, I just spent some time reading about Windows RT. So basically, it's full-blown Windows 8 (with hardware requirements for tablets) and minus Win32 APIs? That's it? Thermopyle posted:Surface doesn't have to be the best ultrabook or the best tablet for it to be the best device for many as long as the tablet and keyboard are good enough for their needs because having the two as one device is a feature unto itself. Exactly. Hip Gelatinous Cube fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 14:36
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Another thing I don't think anyone has mentioned. Have they talked at all about the wireless capabilities of the RT tablet? As in 3G/4G support? If they're using tegra3(seems to be guaranteed at this point) then it definitely won't have LTE.
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Jun 19, 2012 14:47
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^^^ One thing I've been wondering, what kind of driver support does RT have? With the Pro version you'll be able to just plug in your 4g modem. But RT, I have no idea. Sacred Cow posted:I hope the Pro version includes the ability to add it to AD and monitor with SCCM. Integrating and monitoring iPads is a huge pain in the rear end without 3rd party software. It'd be nice if these Windows tablets just integrated seamlessly in a corporate environment. There are Windows tablets out now that have that. I don't see any reason why the Pro wouldn't. Sudden Loud Noise fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 14:51
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TheRevolution1 posted:Another thing I don't think anyone has mentioned. Have they talked at all about the wireless capabilities of the RT tablet? As in 3G/4G support? If they're using tegra3(seems to be guaranteed at this point) then it definitely won't have LTE. By the time this comes out we'll probably have Tegra 4, which should enable LTE connectivity. So excited!
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Jun 19, 2012 14:52
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Fat Whale posted:By the time this comes out we'll probably have Tegra 4, which should enable LTE connectivity. The RT version is coming out on win8 release date which is this year, there's no time for tegra4. EDIT: Actually tegra4 won't even have LTE, Only the codename "Grey" SoC will have it, and that one is screwed because it's still using cortex A9s in 2013. There might be a possibility of a tegra3+LTE chip this year but the LTE won't be integrated into the SoC and will only make tegra3 even more of a battery hog. TheRevolution1 fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 14:54
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I just don't see either of these products making a lasting impression on the market. The Pro version is a second rate ultrabook, while the RT does nothing for content consumption market. There will be an initial rush of sales, sure, but who is going to make this their primary mobile device? If productivity is incredibly important to you, why would you ditch your current laptop for this? If entertainment is more important, why would you leave the iOS or Android app ecosystem for Windows, which pales in comparison (for mobile use)? Unless Microsoft were able to bring some mind blowing combination of specs+price together, there is no reason for these devices to exist. Sometimes my tablet is just a tablet, I don't need to work on excel spreadsheets or edit a proposal in word, just read a book on the couch or pass some time playing tower defense while I'm waiting for something.
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Jun 19, 2012 14:59
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TyrantWD posted:I just don't see either of these products making a lasting impression on the market. The Pro version is a second rate ultrabook, while the RT does nothing for content consumption market. There will be an initial rush of sales, sure, but who is going to make this their primary mobile device? Thermopyle posted:I carry a good compact multi tool. It is neither a great knife nor a great pair of pliers. It is a good enough knife and a good enough pair of pliers for me to love the tool because of its compact nature.
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Jun 19, 2012 15:03
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When do you carry a laptop AND a tablet? For me, and most others, that would be when we travel, and when I travel, I like to be well covered on all bases. I want an entertainment device that is an excellent entertainment device, and a laptop that as good a proxy for my desktop as possible (in terms of productivity). In every other situation it is pretty much an either/or with my laptop/tablet. I need to get work done at the coffee shop, or I need to kill some time at the train station/doctors office etc. You sacrifice a lot on both productivity and entertainment going with a hybrid device like this, for very little pay off. The RT will be dead a few months after it launches, while the Pro will remain a niche product for those who primarily need productivity tools and for some reason don't want to carry around an ultrabook.
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Jun 19, 2012 15:20
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spidoman posted:
The windows tablets out now are full blown versions of Windows 7. These seem to be tablet specific versions of Win8. I'm sure it wont be a problem but they don't seem to be saying much about an OS they plan to put out in a few months.
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Jun 19, 2012 15:31
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TyrantWD posted:When do you carry a laptop AND a tablet? For me, and most others, that would be when we travel, and when I travel, I like to be well covered on all bases. I want an entertainment device that is an excellent entertainment device, and a laptop that as good a proxy for my desktop as possible (in terms of productivity). Your basis (I think) for suggesting that RT will be essentially dead on arrival is based on the lack of a decent app ecosystem, but do bear in mind that the Surface isn't going to be the only RT tablet released in Q4, so there will be a noticeable effect from having a small onslaught of cheaper, shittier tablets from Asus, Nokia, etc., as well as compatibility with WP8. I don't think it's a slam dunk, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.
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Jun 19, 2012 15:33
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I seriously doubt this device will survive a full day on a single charge. Most ultrabooks already struggle with that so I am certain this thing will die with moderate wi-fi/content consumption usage. The multi-tool example doesn't really make sense. I also carry a Leatherman and I also love mine because it deals with general encounters very well. Unlike the Leatherman, this device is kind of bad at everything it wants to converge: its bad at content consumption and bad at content creation.
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Jun 19, 2012 15:33
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Sacred Cow posted:The windows tablets out now are full blown versions of Windows 7. These seem to be tablet specific versions of Win8. I'm sure it wont be a problem but they don't seem to be saying much about an OS they plan to put out in a few months. They've already said the pro version is full windows 8 Professional. TheRevolution1 fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 15:33
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existential anger posted:I seriously doubt this device will survive a full day on a single charge. Most ultrabooks already struggle with that so I am certain this thing will die with moderate wi-fi/content consumption usage. You have't even used the device and you're making assessments about how "good" it is at a task you've never attempted based on mystery specs. Everyone in the press corps who touched one said it felt really impressive in their hands, and were cautiously optimistic about it, but you seem to have already spent a good couple months with it and have a firm judgment about how "good" it is.
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Jun 19, 2012 15:36
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The internal specs are pointless because the design is fundamentally broken. The pictures alone should be enough to tell you that content creation will be as fun as content creation on a netbook (look at that trackpad and keyboard) and content consumption outside of games and movies will be awkward because the aspect ratio is 16:9. If the resolution is going to be 1366x768, everything is going to look like rear end compared to today's tablets too.
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Jun 19, 2012 15:43
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Another device I'll get to watch people awkwardly try to shoehorn into their workflow in the name of doing less with more but looking good while doing it.
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Jun 19, 2012 15:49
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TyrantWD posted:When do you carry a laptop AND a tablet? For me, and most others, that would be when we travel, and when I travel, I like to be well covered on all bases. I want an entertainment device that is an excellent entertainment device, and a laptop that as good a proxy for my desktop as possible (in terms of productivity). TyrantWD posted:You sacrifice a lot on both productivity and entertainment going with a hybrid device like this, for very little pay off. A lot? Would you carry a laptop and a tablet if you were in some magic world where there were no costs (no additional weight or monetary costs or whatever) involved with doing so? Would you carry a laptop and a tablet if you had to compromise on some feature of both that you never use? (Say you don't use a webcam or camera, and forgoing those on the tablet and laptop magically let you carry both at no cost.) What about if you compromised on a feature you use rarely? What about if you could carry both with no costs to you if only you would carry devices that weren't your favorite color? Most people would carry both in the magical no-compromise world. More and more people wouldn't carry both as the compromises got more and more serious. People, in general, don't carry around both a laptop and a tablet because the utility costs are too high so they don't even consider it. If the costs of the compromises Surface makes are less than the costs of not having both, than it makes sense. In other words, if I didn't carry the multi tool I have around, I wouldn't be carrying a knife and a pair of pliers. I'd just carry around a knife that's better than the one on the multi tool, and when I needed a pair of pliers I'd have to go find one or just not do whatever I needed them for. The utility of having both available to me all the time outweighs the lost utility of having a less-than-perfect knife or pliers. Now, what if I was a professional whittler? Well, in that world, the utility cost of not having a great whittling knife is a lot higher, and I'd be back to carrying a knife. In the same manner, the costs of a hybrid device vary depending upon the user. We have no idea what utility costs the hybridization is going to bring. Making authoritative statements about it at this time is premature and smacks of spergy alpha-nerding. Thermopyle fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 15:54
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I don't usually make bold predictions. But I am more and more convinced tablet interface will never work for content creation. I play with Photoshop Touch recently. It's available on Android tablet and iPad While it's a very competent software package compare to full PS, it's still very hard to use. Most of the features are there but it takes you 3X 4X longer time to perform a task. Maybe one day you can incorporate voice command into the tablet interface and make it work as well as keyboard+mouse but I doubt it. What I am saying is 10" tablet form factor is simply a casual content consumption form factor. Doing work on it will never be as well as a 10", 11" laptop. Therefore if you are serious about doing work you should get a laptop not a 10" tablet. I am not talking about simple inventory management like what UPS/7-11/hospital/field installers are doing with their tablets. 7" is the maximum size as far as taking one out during the weekend or on a roadtrip. 10" is just too big and heavy. Sure many people have done so but if they own both a 7" and a 10" tablet they would have picked the 7". This is my experience having owned a 10", a 7" and a 5.3" phone. Now I use a small Android phone/music player + a Galaxy Note when I go out. I like this combo more than a phone and a 7" tablet combo. But I could go either way I may get a 7" tablet in the future if Apple make one. I do believe the tablets will eventually take over the world and replace consumer home PC. People rarely do content creation on their PC. They can easily do it with a tablet if the software is there. In the future, people will interface with their home appliance through their small and large tablets and there is no place for PC at home. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 16:06
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I don't know exactly when I turned into a fanboy, but I'm perhaps less cautious and more optimistic about this than I should be. If the Pro version ends up being halfway competent at desktop computing tasks, I'll probably get one of those and move my old laptop into retirement; otherwise I'll probably get the WinRT one and hope it comes into its own as an iPad competitor. Still not exactly confident in the ability of the fantastic (  ) Microsoft marketing team to sell enough of a critical mass of the things to really get the ecosystem off the ground, but maybe just maybe they understand their rear end is on the line now.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:10
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I have a huge Thinkpad and my wife has an iPad. I like using her iPad for browsing the web, but I cannot stand using it for anything remotely work related because I need to be able to type. This looks like a perfect compromise device for when I am traveling, or want to be able to post while sitting on the couch without having to lug the laptop around.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:11
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whatever7 posted:But I am more and more convinced tablet interface will never work for content creation. whatever7 posted:They can easily do it with a tablet if the software is there. I'm not sure what your'e saying.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:14
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Sacred Cow posted:I hope the Pro version includes the ability to add it to AD and monitor with SCCM. Integrating and monitoring iPads is a huge pain in the rear end without 3rd party software. It'd be nice if these Windows tablets just integrated seamlessly in a corporate environment. Of course, the Pro is full-on Windows 8 with all the management support that entails. Group policy the gently caress out of that bastard. Now, the ~$500 WinRT tablet? No group policy. Yeah there's no way this will not be confusing.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:16
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sky shark posted:I have a huge Thinkpad and my wife has an iPad. I like using her iPad for browsing the web, but I cannot stand using it for anything remotely work related because I need to be able to type. This looks like a perfect compromise device for when I am traveling, or want to be able to post while sitting on the couch without having to lug the laptop around.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:18
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existential anger posted:The pictures alone should be enough to tell you that content creation will be as fun as content creation on a netbook (look at that trackpad and keyboard) and content consumption outside of games and movies will be awkward because the aspect ratio is 16:9. If the resolution is going to be 1366x768, everything is going to look like rear end compared to today's tablets too. I don't get that. For me, content creation will be better in the following ways: * I'll be able to use the stylus for creating my powerpoints. Currently I draw animation paths and highlights using the mouse, which works, but is awkward and frustrating. * I'll be able to do serious work with Outlook. My phone gets me about 10% of the way through business correspondence. With the arm version I expect to be able to type better and read PDFs better, and with the Pro version I expect to juggle multiple emails and documents better. * I'll be able to take this small device easily in my hand luggage and give talks on it at conferences. * On my travels, I'll be able to upload photos from my camera's combined USB+SD stick onto the device. And (with Pro) use Photoshop to crop the photos and adjust color balance. * I'll be able to develop my tablet apps using Visual Studio, on the same device that actually runs them, without needing to use an emulator or remote debugging or any of that mess. As for the 16:9 ratio in portrait mode? I don't understand that complaint. 16:9 seems pretty close to the aspect ratio I see (and prefer to use) on web pages. Here's a screenshot from my desktop monitor, which is in portrait mode, and how I create a narrower window to make it more readable, and how BBC already follows best-practice in having a tall narrow web-page. 
ljw1004 fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 16:19
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ljw1004 posted:
It's just awkward to hold. They don't make physical books in 16:9 ratio.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:21
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Fat Whale posted:By the time this comes out we'll probably have Tegra 4, which should enable LTE connectivity. It will be either Tegra3, or a somewhat shrunk version of it.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:22
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Of course, the Pro is full-on Windows 8 with all the management support that entails. Group policy the gently caress out of that bastard. See this is what I'm afraid of. Our upper management loves buy devices they think are cool with company money without consulting IT, hand it to us and say "make it work but we don't want to pay for anything extra". I had a long standing hate of iPads for this very reason. The only hope I have is that they love to buy the most expensive version of whatever, which happens to be the 128GB Pro version.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:28
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:Of course, the Pro is full-on Windows 8 with all the management support that entails. Group policy the gently caress out of that bastard. Anyone who gives a drat about group policy is going to understand the difference between Windows RT and Windows 8 Professional. The average consumer is only vaguely aware of the difference between "home" and "professional" versions of Windows (where one of the major distinguishing factors is domain logon/group policy support), but it's the job of corporate IT to know, and it hasn't been a problem. Once again, you're taking a perfectly legitimate concern, and overblowing it to a ridiculous degree. Yes, there are going to be consumer education issues with the different versions of Windows. That doesn't mean Grandma is going to take home a new Windows RT tablet and end up disappointed because she can't connect it to her domain server or implement group policies. ljw1004 posted:As for the 16:9 ratio in portrait mode? I don't understand that complaint. 16:9 seems pretty close to the aspect ratio I see (and prefer to use) on web pages. Here's a screenshot from my desktop monitor, which is in portrait mode, and how I create a narrower window to make it more readable, and how BBC already follows best-practice in having a tall narrow web-page. Web pages are designed with the assumption that the user will scroll vertically. What's really important in a small device is the number of horizontal pixels you can lay down. Even the webpage in your screenshot is designed for fairly wide monitors - stuff designed for narrower displays typically doesn't use a third of the precious, precious width for related stories and so forth. 16:9 means that they've either sacrificed portrait-mode width for the sake of height, or made the device bigger than it needs to be. Neither one is particularly appealing, unless you're an OEM who can buy 16:9 panels cheaper than anything else. Space Gopher fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 16:30
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echobucket posted:It's just awkward to hold. They don't make physical books in 16:9 ratio. Gizmodo posted:Microsoft kept touting build quality, and for good reason: the Windows RT Surface tablet is solid and stunning. Attention to detail is positively amazing, and it's so well designed from every angle that it's just a joy to look at. The keyboard is so thin it seems made from fabric. The lines are gorgeous, and it's a well-balanced device that you'll be able to hold for extended sessions. It is, certainly, easier to hang on to than any of the three generations of iPads to date. The screen is bright and vivid, and the viewing angle is as wide as you could reasonably expect to hold it. Even the kickstand that lets it sit upright, which seemed kind of, well, dumb onstage was a fantastic touch once we saw it in person and attached to the keyboard.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:38
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:How would you post sitting on the couch with the keyboard? How is this more "luggable" than a 11" ultrabook with everything built in, that you can also type on your lap? There is an on screen keyboard just like you get on android and ios devices for when the physical keyboard isn't attached.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:39
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Bioalchemist posted:There is an on screen keyboard just like you get on android and ios devices for when the physical keyboard isn't attached. I've found the Win8 on screen keyboard to be pretty nice. There's a split mode that lets you type with both thumbs that works really well.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:46
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Bioalchemist posted:There is an on screen keyboard just like you get on android and ios devices for when the physical keyboard isn't attached.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:47
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 Warning: Tablet RantThis is the closest thing to a practical tablet I've seen but, I still don't get it. I have asked several people who own tablets why they have one and they never have an answer. Why wouldn't you spend half as much for a laptop that's twice as powerful? I know people say it's easier to access then a laptop but is that really a good thing? As a species we haven't evolved to the point of properly developing the social mind through technology. All I see when I see peoples faces (especially those of high-school age) burred in tablets and smart phones are people socially retarding themselves. I get that tablets are cool, I've hosed around with my dads ipad 2 a few times and it's pretty slick but, I can't understand how he justified paying the price he did. Sorry if this is coming off as some poo poo old man yelling at kids for their nintendos but, I would really love it if someone could explain why such a seemingly useless product has such a huge market.
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Jun 19, 2012 16:59
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Portable Entertainment.Jedrick posted:I know people say it's easier to access then a laptop but is that really a good thing? Remy Marathe fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jun 19, 2012 |
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Jun 19, 2012 17:02
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Jedrick posted:I would really love it if someone could explain why such a seemingly useless product has such a huge market. 1. They turn on instantly 2. Comic books 3. Watching tv/movies in bed 4. Great for kids to use Laptops are good at none of these things.
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Jun 19, 2012 17:05
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Jedrick posted:Sorry if this is coming off as some poo poo old man yelling at kids for their nintendos but, I would really love it if someone could explain why such a seemingly useless product has such a huge market. This is why a tablet (and lets face it, that really means iPad) is popular: - Does email, web surfing, games, light word processing. The very tasks the vast majority of consumers use PC's for. - Attractive and fun user interface. - No possibility of spyware, viruses, or crapware. - Ridiculously simple. Virtually no possibility to gently caress it up. They're popular because they serve the majority of the functionality that most consumers of PC's need on a daily basis when they're not at work, and they make it an enjoyable experience that's almost impossible to screw up. Really, the last point is paramount, I just don't think you understand how incredibly difficult and confusing most PC's are to a wide swath of the population.
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Jun 19, 2012 17:09
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I am just hoping this will finally let me load up spreadsheets on the go I bought a Sony tablet S in January before going away on a 6 week break, the reasons i chose this were: USB host support (it let me plug in a 32gb usb drive, massively expanding the storage and letting me take lots of movies with me) Backing up photos: I knew i would be taking lots of photos (i ended up taking about 3000) and the tablet had a SD card slot, i could also transfer straight from the SD card to the a usb stick as a way of backing them up (i like to have 2 copies of my pictures kept in 2 locations) I also wanted a way to view my works reservation spreadsheet while i was away, however it fell down pretty hard on this. The best i could do was find apps to view open office documents and none of them actually work for a document the size of the one we use at work. I had also planned to use it when i got home for that same reason. As a whole it is a very average machine (web browsing is slow, wifi drops out, the browser sucks) and all i use it for now is emulating ps1 games (which it is amazing for, using a bluetooth ps3 controller) and watching movies / netflix and occasional browsing when travelling It still comes with me instead of a laptop whenever i have a weekend away though. From looking at the MS tablet it sounds like it will be able to do exactly what im looking for and feel that my android one is missing
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Jun 19, 2012 17:11
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