Stereoscopic 3D Gaming - We are VR.

El_Matarife · # ? Feb 12, 2013 06:43

So a guy on the MTBS forums has a really awesome "walking" setup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlJZkDhuX7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jQOWnsUkaI
Fairly natural movement, and it should be a good deal cheaper than any other omnidirectional treadmill setup. I think this guy is going to solve America's obesity crisis.

Here's the thread with more details: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=16294 He's going to try for a Kickstarter himself, but I'm guessing he is six plus months away at least.

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Trisk · Trisk Feb 12, 2005

That's pretty cool. Am I understanding it correctly that's it's just a slippery bowl he's walking in?

ziasquinn · # ? Feb 12, 2013 06:58

Sounds like he has low friction shoes with contact points on them too. Some guy showed up on the first page claiming he was infringing on the wizdish.com copyright. Whatever man.

XOIC of Radishes · # ? Feb 12, 2013 07:40

Your Dead Gay Son posted:

Sounds like he has low friction shoes with contact points on them too. Some guy showed up on the first page claiming he was infringing on the wizdish.com copyright. Whatever man.

For those curious, skip to 0:45 to see the Wizdish in action!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zc6KXdpmaQ
:suicide:

Obsurveyor · # ? Feb 12, 2013 12:39

I don't give a poo poo what those guys say, there is no way that foot dragging motion feels like natural walking. It only feels natural to them because they've spent years playing with the things. That shoe based one is loud as hell too.

I'd much rather do something like this guy with an elliptical:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdYrFY01pGY

or a Virtusphere:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvM2Cr210Y8
(there are other videos but this one is pretty funny)

Cugel the Clever · # ? Feb 12, 2013 14:13

All these videos have shown me that we're never going to have a quality, consumer-grade interface for physically walking. Head track and even gun tracking are totally doable, but I can't see any of those walking systems ever reaching the market. This is super disappointing because I'd love to have that kind of interaction, done well.

I guess the alternatives are either something like the Wii's nunchuck, a stick on the grip of a prop gun, or some sort of neural interface (though the tech isn't there, it's still more likely than the giant platforms in those videos). I like the second idea best. Airsoft manufacturers could make a killing partnering with anyone releasing a system.

Cugel the Clever fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Feb 12, 2013

xamphear · # ? Feb 12, 2013 14:37

Cugel the Clever posted:

All these videos have shown me that we're never going to have a quality, consumer-grade interface for physically walking.

That's pretty pessimistic. I don't know if it's possible either, but it is far too soon to say "never".

Cugel the Clever · # ? Feb 12, 2013 15:43

xamphear posted:

That's pretty pessimistic. I don't know if it's possible either, but it is far too soon to say "never".

I hope for a brilliant inventor to prove me wrong, but the current prototypes either inherently bulky or a poor imitation. Often both. Ideally, you'd want something at least the length of the average running stride in each direction (maybe a little less if it can predict your movement well enough and act accordingly). It could be scaled down if you translate walking as running, even to the point of tiny little steps, but that's a huge loss in making it feel right.

Banano · # ? Feb 12, 2013 22:19

Christ alive. Both of those dish things are beyond terrible. Even if they actually worked to a decent degree you are still faced with the fact that you will look a complete and utter oval office while using them and a gigantic and ugly nerd object will be dominating a room in your house when you aren't.

This setup looks far more like the sort of thing that will become popular, but I'm guessing even that isn't really that close.

My money's on something like the equivalent of 3 kinects each tracking and processing different areas of the body combined with a headmounted display. Whatever is the most elegant, unobtrusive solution will be the one that is successful.

the black husserl · # ? Feb 12, 2013 23:36

Banano posted:

Christ alive. Both of those dish things are beyond terrible. Even if they actually worked to a decent degree you are still faced with the fact that you will look a complete and utter oval office while using them and a gigantic and ugly nerd object will be dominating a room in your house when you aren't.

Considering Google is about to invest millions in the dorkiest looking nerd glasses ever, "looking like a oval office" doesn't seem to turn people off anymore.

Also bluetooth headsets.

fuckpot · # ? Feb 13, 2013 03:50

Something that suspends you in the air would be pretty cool.

Doom Goon · # ? Feb 13, 2013 04:10

El_Matarife · # ? Feb 13, 2013 06:29

Banano posted:

Christ alive. Both of those dish things are beyond terrible. Even if they actually worked to a decent degree you are still faced with the fact that you will look a complete and utter oval office while using them and a gigantic and ugly nerd object will be dominating a room in your house when you aren't.

If the waist harness is collapsible, it should fit under a queen or king sized bed. At least, that's his plan from what I understand. I just don't know what's going to feel natural. The giant hamster ball approach would have to be huge, impractical and expensive. Slick domes might feel like walking on an icy hill. Hundreds of ball bearings like the cybercarpet would be slick and heavy / expensive, and a maintenance nightmare.

None of these have any purpose in competitive games, but seem like a lot of fun and could be used for weight loss, physical therapy, training simulations, etc.

I don't think they need to be perfect, just good enough at a reasonable price for some consumer adoption.

El_Matarife fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Feb 13, 2013

ziasquinn · # ? Feb 13, 2013 07:55

Seriously, the dudes walking harness is the closest thing you can get right now, especially if they get the gait more natural. I don't wanna set up three kinects and walk in place, that's just as awkward and ridiculous looking in my opinion.

Elliptical isn't too bad, but you kind of lose that turning sensation.

El_Matarife · # ? Feb 13, 2013 18:24

Honestly, I can't imagine it's that much worse than walking around in ski boots. We walk around in those goofy rear end boots, uncomfortable boots that make us walk weird cause we enjoy the experience of skiing. This walking setup brings us that much closer to really experiencing another world so I can't imagine we would complain that much about the awkwardness of the gait and shoes.

XOIC of Radishes · # ? Feb 13, 2013 20:05

El_Matarife posted:

Honestly, I can't imagine it's that much worse than walking around in ski boots. We walk around in those goofy rear end boots, uncomfortable boots that make us walk weird cause we enjoy the experience of skiing. This walking setup brings us that much closer to really experiencing another world so I can't imagine we would complain that much about the awkwardness of the gait and shoes.

The experience of skiing isn't trying to emulate the experience of walking, though.

e: More accurately, I don't think someone would put up with an inconvenient system of walking for long periods of time.

Locus · # ? Feb 14, 2013 14:51

In the virtual cyberscapes of the future, a hacker's input rollerskates are their greatest asset.

Cugel the Clever · # ? Feb 14, 2013 15:50

El_Matarife posted:

Honestly, I can't imagine it's that much worse than walking around in ski boots. We walk around in those goofy rear end boots, uncomfortable boots that make us walk weird cause we enjoy the experience of skiing. This walking setup brings us that much closer to really experiencing another world so I can't imagine we would complain that much about the awkwardness of the gait and shoes.

I'd agree that the awkwardness in use is something that may be overcome, but the bulk of a system poses a bigger obstacle. We can rule out the giant hamster balls immediately, but even the smaller systems appear excessive for the average user, particularly those looking to play with friends in the same room.

I imagine that any system would require a harness of some sort when coupled with VR to keep the user stationary and to keep them from self-injury. That kind of thing would have to have some weight to pose a resistance to the user's motions, yet collapsible so as to not snap under the girth of an overweight neckbeard who manages to fall over his own feet. Collapsible means easier storage, but it'll still pose some trouble. Like you say, this kind of VR just won't do competitive gameplay in the next few years, and likely not in the next decade. Therapeutic uses will be the only thing that might help make the early R&D investment worthwhile.

If we do get some sort of neural interface, I'd imagine the next step would be to couple it with small cybercarpet and have them operate in tandem. Player thinks about moving in a direction and the carpet gets started.

Polo-Rican · # ? Feb 14, 2013 16:16

A simple solution to this problem is to stop making FPS games where the protagonist is explicitly supposed to be walking and instead make FPS games where the protagonist is supposed to be riding some sort of Segway device. Sure, you wouldn't be able to make a realistic, gritty battlefield simulator that way, but you'd be able to easily make VR setups where all motion felt real. Plus it lends itself to some fun gameplay mechanics, such as being able to "run" at 70mph like the guy from DOOM.

ziasquinn · # ? Feb 25, 2013 06:18

Okay! I kept forgetting to post about my DIY Rift set up that I threw together a couple days ago.

The only major difference between the build log that was posted earlier in the thread and mine is the screen and controller board. I opted to go for a 7inch screen instead of a 5.6 for two reasons:

1. It was actually cheaper!
2. The current Rift is moving production towards 7 inch screens, so I hope any Rift API that is released will work "out of the box."

Here is the screen I used: http://www.ebay.com/itm/181000536502?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 If you opt for free shipping, you'll save $30 bucks but it'll take some time (2-3 weeks). I can report that it was packaged SUPERBLY. It comes with the controller board, so you don't have to buy one separately. The only thing is it doesn't come with a power adapter, but I link that later.

Here is a picture I managed to snap up after I built the box:

For building the box, I just sketched out the design I wanted on a piece of paper, then made all the measurements. For mine, the height and width of the side for the screen and lenses had to be equal, and it was about 115mm and 165mm. For the sides of the box where it all folded together, I used the distance the lenses were from the screen for optimum clarity. Boxed it all up, taped it together and voila.

I watched a couple of sidebyside 3d videos on youtube to get crystal clarity, but I forgot to compensate for the foam on the goggles messing it up a little. I need to tear it apart and reform it.

It's upside down in this picture...

So far: It is pretty cool! I think I must've messed something up when I was putting it together (or my eyes are too far apart/close together) because I can see the edges of the screen very clearly. It might be the magnification I'm using, I probably should've used different lenses, since the 5x loupe lenses are traditionally used for the 5.6inch screen build.

The hillcrest tracker is FSM-6. A lot of documentation names it differently, but that is the correct one. I was super confused for a while until I saw on their website that it was renamed.

Build cost:

7in 1280x800 Screen: $126
Hillcrest FSM-6 Tracker: $100
Loupe 5x Lenses:$26
Foam Board/Hot Glue/Duct Tape: $11
Thin HDMI Cable: $11 (aww yeah)
****Power adapter for screen: $10
Total: $284
I definitely believe they are either selling the Developer kits at a loss or a hair thin margin if this is how much it cost to make one myself. Of course, they'll get discounts on huge bulk orders for the parts, but even then, I can't imagine it being much cheaper.

The Hillcrest tracker has 120hz built in for it's refresh rate, but you can email merrill 'period' roller@hillcrestlabs.com to ask for 250hz firmware update. John Carmack used that for his fusion build of Doom 3 BFG. While it isn't strictly necessary, a lot of mods and plugins that people are coding for DIY Rifts are assuming people are using the 250hz firmware. Others like to use YEI Space or other trackers, but I went for the one with the most support.

As for support, Cyberreality over at Mtbs3d forums developed a program that'll force some a select few Source games and Skyrim to work with a DIY Rift: http://www.vireio.com/ As of 1.04, I can't get HL2 to work, but some people can. L2D2 worked fine though. The only huge issue with it is that the "screens" for each eye are draw sequentially, creating a 1 frame difference between your them. This doesn't' necessarily break the 3D illusion, but it causes a lot of ghosting during high speed action.

Tridef 3D works for forcing games to run in Side by side mode, but they won't have any distortion on the edges, which is ideal for this setup. It costs 50 bucks though, I'm just testing the trial at the moment.

Another guy made a breakout board for the screen, which I bet is a lifesaver. It converts the LVDS for the display to HDMI, which also carries the image and power output to the screen.
Here is a link to his post in the DIY Rift thread on mtbs3d: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=15247&start=510#p83258 He has links to the schematics and the design for the breakout board if you feel very ambitious. You'll have to get the chip made through a manufacturer, but I don't think it'd cost very much.

As for the experience, it's pretty killer. I played through a level of Left 4 Dead 2 and it was a completely different experience. I had to turn down the mouse sensitivity because the tracker was working off mouse emulation, and because I wasn't sitting in a swivel chair, I was kind of limited by my degree of movement. Next time I sit down and try, I'll use a gamepad and a swivel chair so I don't have to worry about my keyboard not traveling with me when I turn around a corner.

From what I've already seen though, I'm definitely pumped for the real thing, especially if they have more custom solutions (moving the lenses within the case, etc).

ziasquinn fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Feb 25, 2013

Incessant Excess · # ? Feb 25, 2013 21:30

Has there been any word of the Rifts ability to be used with current games without the headtracking? I'd be fine with just a giant screen, ideally still with 3d support, for my racing games. I'm basically hoping the Rift can also be used as a Sony HMZ but without the part of it sucking really bad.

Obsurveyor · # ? Feb 25, 2013 23:39

Biggest human being Ever posted:

Has there been any word of the Rifts ability to be used with current games without the headtracking? I'd be fine with just a giant screen, ideally still with 3d support, for my racing games. I'm basically hoping the Rift can also be used as a Sony HMZ but without the part of it sucking really bad.

You can't get stereoscopic 3D without two cameras and most games don't render them. The other issue is that the move to 7" on the Rift creates a non 1:1 eye mapping which means there's overlap on each eye that has to be taken care of by the renderer. This is the reason why I built a 5.6" DIY over the 7".

Crysis 2 supports side-by-side 3D and it loving rules. But holy poo poo! It's like night and day when you run a tracker with your DIY Rift. This little Unity app I got working to test the stereo 3D is crazy! I already wish it had positional tracking now too!

Obsurveyor fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Feb 25, 2013

El_Matarife · # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:14

Biggest human being Ever posted:

Has there been any word of the Rifts ability to be used with current games without the headtracking? I'd be fine with just a giant screen, ideally still with 3d support, for my racing games. I'm basically hoping the Rift can also be used as a Sony HMZ but without the part of it sucking really bad.

There's several drivers now available for existing games with the Rift. All of them are DirectX based. Vireo Perception: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=15570 VorpX: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=16097 There's widespread speculation that the popular TriDef drivers will also end up with a Rift profile.

VorpX already supports rFactor and people are begging him to look at iRacing. http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=102300#p102300

El_Matarife fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Feb 26, 2013

microwave casserole · # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:25

Polo-Rican posted:

A simple solution to this problem is to stop making FPS games where the protagonist is explicitly supposed to be walking and instead make FPS games where the protagonist is supposed to be riding some sort of Segway device. Sure, you wouldn't be able to make a realistic, gritty battlefield simulator that way, but you'd be able to easily make VR setups where all motion felt real. Plus it lends itself to some fun gameplay mechanics, such as being able to "run" at 70mph like the guy from DOOM.

Descent with 3D goggles would be the best thing, the greatest thing.

Locus · # ? Feb 26, 2013 01:54

So should I go out and buy a $25 Wii Fit balance board at Goodwill, in preparation for the coming cyber reality renaissance?

El_Matarife · # ? Mar 8, 2013 19:53

There's going to be a VR panel at SXSW at 6PM CST tonight. Cliffy "Nali Fruit" B, Chris "Wing Commander" Roberts, Paul "Words with Friends" Bettner and Palmer Lucky will be on a panel that will probably be moderated by Josh Topolsky of the Verge: http://schedule.sxsw.com/2013/events/event_OE02065 There's no livestream link yet, so keep your eyes on http://www.theverge.com/

edit: Live stream URL http://www.ustream.tv/channel/oculusvr-live They're running a demo at 5PM CST and then the panel at 6.

El_Matarife fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Mar 8, 2013

Cugel the Clever · # ? Mar 9, 2013 01:36

El_Matarife posted:

There's going to be a VR panel at SXSW at 6PM CST tonight.

This is a pretty great stream. They're really covering a broad spectrum of nascent VR tech, beyond just the goggles. Haptic gloves for tactile feedback, binaural audio for 3D audio, the potential for an arcade renaissance for the omnidirectional treadmills. I like the idea of them testing out the Rift by telling people to go up and look over a cliff in-game, then "pushing" them over.

El_Matarife · # ? Mar 12, 2013 21:00

https://twitter.com/VirtuixOmni/status/311516464555380736/photo/1 Here's one hell of a photo: Palmer Luckey, Chris Roberts, and Paul Bettner try the Virtuix Omni walking peripheral. Apparently, they all really like it.

Cugel the Clever posted:

I like the idea of them testing out the Rift by telling people to go up and look over a cliff in-game, then "pushing" them over.

I'd never had my fear of heights or vertigo triggered by a game before until I tried the Rift.

jack. · jack. Sep 1, 2001

I guess they've shipped out the dev kits to the pre-Kickstarter backers on mtbs3d so hopefully they will start shipping the Kickstarter ones any day now. Can't wait.

ephori · # ? Mar 12, 2013 22:49

I haven't been this jazzed about new hardware in a long time. I can't wait to see them.

sigher · # ? Mar 14, 2013 21:07

El_Matarife posted:

https://twitter.com/VirtuixOmni/status/311516464555380736/photo/1 Here's one hell of a photo: Palmer Luckey, Chris Roberts, and Paul Bettner try the Virtuix Omni walking peripheral. Apparently, they all really like it.

Man, if this works 100% perfectly I can't get behind looking like a toddler just for a sliver of added depth to movement. Just doesn't seem worth it.

Obsurveyor · # ? Mar 15, 2013 16:12

jack. posted:

I guess they've shipped out the dev kits to the pre-Kickstarter backers on mtbs3d so hopefully they will start shipping the Kickstarter ones any day now. Can't wait.

They haven't. I'm part of this group. Dumb people speculating on an email sent to us by Palmer.

jack. · jack. Sep 1, 2001

Ah, bummer. Well Palmer is still saying they're on track to start getting these out to some people before GDC, so they'll have to start shipping pretty soon. I pledged within a couple of hours of the Kickstarter going up and I'm like order #400 so I'm hoping I will be in the first batch.

El_Matarife · # ? Mar 15, 2013 18:16

Obsurveyor posted:

They haven't. I'm part of this group. Dumb people speculating on an email sent to us by Palmer.

I know he asked you guys to keep it under your hat but would you at least assure us it isn't anything really cool?

Obsurveyor · # ? Mar 15, 2013 18:35

El_Matarife posted:

I know he asked you guys to keep it under your hat but would you at least assure us it isn't anything really cool?

I assure you it is not. I will go so far as to say we are not receiving any physical items that the Kickstarters couldn't have with their pledges.

El_Matarife · # ? Mar 15, 2013 18:40

MTBS is getting almost unusably bad as we get closer to release. It's been flooded with low content, non-spellchecked disaster posts lately. I can barely separate the wheat from the chaff and keep up to date on the important news.

And there seems to be a huge contingent of old beard and suspender types from the first wave of VR 20 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, the Rift is cool as gently caress and I totally lost it when I played with one at Quakecon, but Jesus. These guys have totally lost their minds.

Obsurveyor · # ? Mar 15, 2013 18:46

El_Matarife posted:

MTBS is getting almost unusably bad as we get closer to release. It's been flooded with low content, non-spellchecked disaster posts lately. I can barely separate the wheat from the chaff and keep up to date on the important news.

Yeah it's a real poo poo show. Every technical topic gets derailed by retards talking about games or some tangential subject. Technical questions get lost in the noise. The VR/AR Research forum is a little better but it has slowed way down.

The hype and speculation train is off the rails over there. Every tidbit gets dissected to death with a ton of just dumb ideas about what it means or could mean. This, I believe, is the only reason why Palmer didn't want us sharing the email. It has information that they would just misconstrue immediately.

mewse · mewse May 2, 2006

Are there any articles out there describing the warping that has to be done to prepare a 3D image for the 1280x800 display?

I've found this source code for a shader in the biclops driver which I assume working through would give me enough of an idea to implement the warping myself, but some descriptions of what's happening would be nice..

e: just found this on stack overflow which seems to explain the algorithm

e2: oooo found this for opengl with source code, woo

mewse fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Mar 15, 2013

Obsurveyor · # ? Mar 15, 2013 19:15

mewse posted:

Are there any articles out there describing the warping that has to be done to prepare a 3D image for the 1280x800 display?

Without the warp shader, it's literally just render two cameras side-by-side with a little separation. I set up a little project in Unity Free and "it just works".

The warp shader is simply distorting the camera's view to account for the optics you're looking through. It pushes the pixels in tighter towards the center of the image. It's supposed to eliminate some of the visual artifacts and screen door issues.

This only works for the 1280x800 5.6" displays. The real Rift with the 7" display needs a more complicated shader because it has to fiddle around with clipping the overlapping portions of the images in each eye.

edit: id has a Doom3 BFG github repo and it has the source for theirs in there as well. I can post a link when I get home

Obsurveyor fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Mar 15, 2013

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Incessant Excess · # ? Mar 15, 2013 20:37

Obsurveyor posted:

The real Rift with the 7" display needs a more complicated shader because it has to fiddle around with clipping the overlapping portions of the images in each eye.

Does this mean theres nothing physically separating the two halves of the screen? For some reason I assumed there'd be a piece of plastic going from the bridge of your nose to the display.