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Goldwarf posted:So why exactly is it a federal crime to cheat at a sport anyway? Because unlike Moody's selling favorable credit ratings or the SEC missing out on a decades+ old obvious ponzi scheme, sports are serious poo poo and cheaters must pay for their heinous crimes.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 09:30 |
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| # ? May 21, 2013 06:38 |
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It is an untold assumption that every pro-athlete (at the very least the world-class) is doping. At this point doping tests is more of a competition to how close you can get to high performance and not getting caught.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 09:33 |
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This is really going to ruin the ending of "Dodgeball."
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 09:57 |
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The Bible posted:Because unlike Moody's selling favorable credit ratings or the SEC missing out on a decades+ old obvious ponzi scheme, sports are serious poo poo and cheaters must pay for their heinous crimes. Amen Brother. Well spoken. I don't care, he IS a hero for what he did. He didn't give up on the cancer thing and swung his rear end back on a bike, giving millions of people hope. I don't care if he would sit on a bike and have a hose attached to his veins running back to the support car pumping pure Heroin! Drug agency should go for the real villains.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 10:06 |
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Not the most bias OP I've seen in a long time, nope, not at all. 3 years on, you've got people who are bitter about being stripped of their own titles/disqualified for being caught. If Armstrong was doping with them as claimed how come he wasn't caught but they were? You don't think he was the most tested man in the world for 7 years? Personally I can see how 3 years of this would take it's toll, especially now that you've finished riding. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.  The man is a hero regardless of it, and by the end of this year or start of next his foundation will have raised 500million for cancer. gently caress you.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 10:24 |
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My uncle was bros with Lance in High-School and I won't hear this slanderous nonsense about a majestic man who can ride bikes with a mere one testicle 
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 10:28 |
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Fuzzy Pipe Wrench posted:Make doping mandatory. "...And up steps Russian competitor Anastasiya Baranovsky trying win her countries first car-juggling gold in a sport that for many years has been dominated by the Czech and the Jamaicans. She takes four Lexus hatchbacks to the mat initially. Let's see how she does..."
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 10:31 |
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Namarrgon posted:It is an untold assumption that every pro-athlete (at the very least the world-class) is doping. At this point doping tests is more of a competition to how close you can get to high performance and not getting caught. Complaining about doping is like complaining that modern athletes use modern nutrition, vitamin supplements, and workout methods.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 10:37 |
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I'm curious as to how it doesn't matter if he cheated or not. If you cheat surely you're the antithesis of a hero?Panzeh posted:Complaining about doping is like complaining that modern athletes use modern nutrition, vitamin supplements, and workout methods. Ahahahahah?
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 10:37 |
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Panzeh posted:Complaining about doping is like complaining that modern athletes use modern nutrition, vitamin supplements, and workout methods. Yes, things which unequivocally improve an athlete's health are definitely equivalent to risky, not-fully-understood treatments which are known to be associated with various life-threatening complications.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 10:46 |
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Namarrgon posted:It is an untold assumption that every pro-athlete (at the very least the world-class) is doping. At this point doping tests is more of a competition to how close you can get to high performance and not getting caught. Yep, pretty much. I once heard a statement that almost bordered on the point of bleak absurdity to almost become a joke, by some official or person in-the-know about the state of doping in ALL World Class competitive sports: "Doping isn't a crime; It's only a crime if you get caught" Implication is that pretty much everyone dopes at the top of their respective sports fields. Even the olympics. It's only a crime if you get caught because of your incompetence at fooling the drug tests. The state of doping medicine now is that it's so loving daedalynthrian that a creative "Doctor" can come up with any compound or concoction that is so esoteric that no possible doping system can detect it. Much less the individual chemicals themselves. So good luck with that So how to solve the problem? Lift the god drat ban, and make 2 separate categories: One au-naturel, the other as augmented/doped as gently caress. At least it'll make for interesting commentary in the augmented/doped category for Weightlifting in the Olympics... "Aaand here comes Sergei Borishnikov, weighing a massive 500lbs, and sporting a large, gargantuan tumour on his right deltoid, and left testicle. What're your thoughts on this particular abomination, Dave?" "Well Steve, his tumour growth seems to have accelerated tremendously since his use of a new Synthetic Steroid by Pfizer, currently undergoing testing, and not yet on the market. This new concoction seems to be causing quite a stir, look at the size of that growth!" "Yes Dave, but it's nothing compared to Wolfgang Dempsey of the Bavarian Highlands of Austria and Germany...Phew! DID you SEE that THING on his crotch?" "Oh yes Steve, I wonder how he manages during sex?..."
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 10:48 |
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blah_blah posted:Yes, things which unequivocally improve an athlete's health are definitely equivalent to risky, not-fully-understood treatments which are known to be associated with various life-threatening complications. If you don't have the passion to go all the way to get good at a sport, perhaps a different vocation is in order.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 10:49 |
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Rabbi Satan posted:So how to solve the problem? Lift the god drat ban, and make 2 separate categories: One au-naturel, the other as augmented/doped as gently caress. That wouldn't really solve the 'problem' though, as people would still be doping in the natural category to come out on top. Just lift the ban and continue on as normal.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 10:54 |
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Rabbi Satan posted:So how to solve the problem? Lift the god drat ban, and make 2 separate categories: One au-naturel, the other as augmented/doped as gently caress. This would be cool, although you'd still have the problem of people competing in the natural category illegally doping. I do understand the argument that they want to be tough on doping because it may be detrimental to athlete's health, and that by allowing it you can't be competitive if you're NOT on drugs. But still, nobody is forcing them to dope - it's a choice each individual can make for themselves. If winning is more important to them than the potential health risks, I say go for it. Until such time as all doping can be reliably detected (i.e., never), all you're doing is penalising those who don't have access to the best doctors and latest technology.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:00 |
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Cyclist here. I regularly take performance enhancing drugs. These include vitamins, Powerade, and ibuprofen. Without them I would lose a few miles-per-hour on a ride. Also, why is it okay for boxers to "blood pack" but not cyclists?
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:00 |
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Rabbi Satan posted:Implication is that pretty much everyone dopes at the top of their respective sports fields. Even the olympics. It does make sense that the top athletes in any given group would be the ones using performance enhancers. They would naturally rise to the top, seeing as they are technically surpassing human limitations.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:02 |
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freezingprocess posted:Cyclist here. I regularly take performance enhancing drugs. These include vitamins, Powerade, and ibuprofen. Without them I would lose a few miles-per-hour on a ride. Because we pretty much just assume all boxers are born criminals anyway.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:05 |
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Offkorn posted:That wouldn't really solve the 'problem' though, as people would still be doping in the natural category to come out on top. Yeah, I knew I should've added onto this, as this would've been a problem that would've arose (Those doping intentionally in the non-doping category). It depends on "problems" and what's perceived as thus. I suppose if you just lift the entire ban carte-blanche, and have only 1 category; no segmented all-natural/doped-as-gently caress categories, people will start complaining that the integrity and spirit of sports is effectively dead, and that we're pretty much eating and raping its corpse for the sake of fame, fortune, and the 15 minutes of glory. Then it's off to coaching the next generation of dope fiends. (But then again, that happens now anyway, regardless of dope or not). On the other hand, if you have 2 categories, you can let the sheer masochists who want to infuse themselves with Hyper-Steroids Mkv. VII and out tumour each other, that'll work for the circus and colosseum crowds, but at least you'll have one minor category that'll have an avenue for those who want to compete with what they were born with in the genetic lottery. But then again, you two are right - it still won't stop dopers from doping anyway and then entering into that category. As since there's a category specialized already for them, the assumption is that they'd go for the doping category, and not the au-naturel one. So then again, we're really back to square one, except with the circus freakshow tent pitched right next to the sports stadium.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:07 |
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Panzeh posted:If you don't have the passion to go all the way to get good at a sport, perhaps a different vocation is in order. You should put more effort into your trolling, that was wholly unmemorable.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:08 |
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Okay. Here's something people need to think about and realize about all this. In the seven TDF's that Lance won, there were hoards of drug cheats. People contending year after year while being on drugs the WADA and whoever didn't even know to test for. And many eventually dropped off the scene facing god knows what charges. The ones who didn't and kept racing for lesser teams were caught. And still, he beat them all. Now think about that. How does someone beat an entire field of guys on EPO, steroids and some kind of fish paralyzer year after year after year? And then the field goes for a higher level of roidlyzers and he STILL beats them? Lance Armstrong is the ultimate drug cheat, and there is absolutely no question or doubt about it. He just happened to be years, months or even days ahead of the guys who got caught with the same stuff and got away with it. But when tests became more sophisticated at catching distant cheating, loe and behold, there's Lance getting caught for poo poo people in the early 2000s were doing. And you know what? I hope this doesn't affect his charitable works one single bit, because he's living proof that people can come back from death, horribly cheat and maul death and continue to laugh in death's face while doing drat good works. As long as no one else decides to follow his path, I say good on him. Edit: and I mean as long as Lance Armstrong is the last drug-monster-claiming-clean hero we ever hear of, at least he'll be the best of them, because honestly, I don't think anyone could do as much as he's done. acejackson42 fucked around with this message at Aug 24, 2012 around 11:12 |
| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:08 |
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From everything I've read from the people accusing him, sounds like everyone was doping back then. So Lance being a doper doesn't really matter because he beat everyone else who was also doping at the time. Sounds like it was essentially a level playing field. Not fighting it is the smart thing to do.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:14 |
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Taking peds doesn't turn you into superman. You won't be throwing cars and running with a herd of wildebeest. People have some crazy misconceptions about the effects of doping. He's still going to be practicing/ exercising 70 hours a week.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:17 |
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blah_blah posted:You should put more effort into your trolling, that was wholly unmemorable. He isn't trolling, he's absolutely right. If you make the assumption that all pro athletes - across every single sport - are doping, you will be more correct than not. blah_blah posted:Yes, things which unequivocally improve an athlete's health are definitely equivalent to risky, not-fully-understood treatments which are known to be associated with various life-threatening complications. It has nothing to do with health. Health of the athlete is irrelevant. Here's a hint; the athlete does not give a gently caress how healthy he is. He cares about how hard he can hit, how fast he can go, how much he can lift. Not what his blood pressure is or whatever. He's right. Every athlete must absolutely find any advantage possible in order to win. You always have to one-up the other guy. If you aren't driven enough to do that, then you aren't 100% commited or competitive. The steroids line was crossed a loooong time ago. There's no putting the genie back in the bottle. stratdax fucked around with this message at Aug 24, 2012 around 11:22 |
| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:19 |
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please respond posted:He doesn't give a poo poo about his family, he probably doesn't even know his kids names. He left the mother of his kids to go bang the Olsen twins. Never heard about that....seems kinda weird.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:22 |
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diesiel posted:So many resources being devoted to going after some dude that rides a bike faster than anyone else. Now if only the banking conglomerates got persecuted with such vigor Lance doesn't have enough money to pay off the people trying to persecute him.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:27 |
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To paraphrase an excellent post on doping (which I can't find in YLLS), doping is not only forbidden out of idealism but also because doping fucks your body up. You cant cane stuff that sends your body regularly into overdrive over a professional competitive career without massive risk. It's that simple.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:28 |
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Here is what I will say about this: $29 Million in cancer research in 2011. $28 Million in cancer research in 2010. Barry Bonds. (BB - Future Hall of Famer) (I don't give a poo poo, Lance Armstrong has done waaaaaaaaaaaay more good for the human race than harm).
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:30 |
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acejackson42 posted:I hope this doesn't affect his charitable works one single bit, because he's living proof that people can come back from death, horribly cheat and maul death and continue to laugh in death's face while doing drat good works. Same here, I don't mind the concept or the fact of doping - it's going to happen. It's the human condition to be competitive in sports. If there's any chance of doing something that'll give an athlete the edge, chances are, they'll loving do it. Who cares about long term consequences if you can do the 100m in under 5 seconds and go down in loving history as doing it "clean", and then get away with it, before the Doping and Testing Arms races catches up? Still though, that's not the crux of the issue here. The issue is that Lance, although really well intentioned in his Cancer Foundation and charitable works and philanthropy, based those deeds on his image. And his image is based on his cycling. And his cycling is based on his outward "integrity" of the sport - non-doping. Since all of that is contingent on his integrity, that all comes down like a House of Cards if it's proven or publicly viewed as truth that Lance Armstrong, the Hero of the Tour de France, the God amongst men - Really had no clothes all along. As for the nature of doping, "cheating"/gaining an edge, and its health affects to the athletes. I'm sure you could go back a few decades where performance enhancing drinks like Gatorade, Powerade, etc, would've been viewed as a threat to the integrity of sports, as they gave those who imbibed them the edge over their opponents. Same with nutritional suppliments, and the host of others. Over time, these becomes safer and more of the standard operating procedure. It won't be long when the entire ban on chemical enhancers is lifted, since, as stratdax said, the genie is pretty much out of the bottle, and the genie is not going to want to be put back in, because he's a loving giant with meat tumours for arms. Lets not even loving get into Biomechanical augmentations...oh CHRIST.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:31 |
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stratdax posted:He isn't trolling, he's absolutely right. If you make the assumption that all pro athletes - across every single sport - are doping, you will be more correct than not. Professional athletes take steroids to stay near the top of the world in a sport so they can get rich/make a living, not because their 'passion' is so overwhelming that they do it regardless of the health risks.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:33 |
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Macintyre posted:From everything I've read from the people accusing him, sounds like everyone was doping back then. So Lance being a doper doesn't really matter because he beat everyone else who was also doping at the time. ABSOLUTELY everyone in contention was doping at that time, and that included Lance. The thing is, Lance is basing everything on him being completely clean, which is absolutely ridiculous when you look at what he did to who he did. I think so much of this might have blown over and this might not be a discussion if it wasn't for Floyd Landis. I think the most amazing thing about this is how Landis and his team went about blowing the whole doping thing wide loving open - here's a guy who had faltered so badly that he was out of contention to all of a sudden, from one race to the next or so, blasting the holy gently caress out of the field and taking the lead. And running away from the field the rest of the way. I used to cheer for American cyclists back then and that made even me go 'holy christ, Floyd what are you on...' I remember something similar - there was a long-distance cross-country ski race in Nagano or Torino where the Spaniard was so far ahead of the field the commentators were just ignoring him... as if he didn't exist. And sure enough he was gone a day or two later for doping. Ninja edit - yep, Johann Mühlegg.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:35 |
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quote:"I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999," he said. "The toll this has taken on my family and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today - finished with this nonsense." Thirteen long years he's had to fight these people on their claims, and when he finally says 'gently caress it, not worth the effort' they immediately claim it's an admission of guilt? That's like the guy who wrote the 108 page response to RedLetterMedia claiming victory because they couldn't muster effort to read it, much less respond to it. What a bunch of dicks.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:36 |
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The coolest thing is every person who came in second to Lance for those 7 TdF wins also got caught doping. I'm not sure if vacating the wins will pass them down the line or if there will be no winner for the year.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:37 |
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Panzeh posted:If you don't have the passion to go all the way to get good at a sport, perhaps a different vocation is in order. Workers deserve protection from employers that require them to take unnecessary, life-threatening risks for greater output. Even if the dumb bastards they think they can handle the risk (there will always be a lowest bidder for labour)
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:41 |
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Alkazard.exe posted:Not the most bias OP I've seen in a long time, nope, not at all. He claims to be the most tested man but where is his proof? It's been repeatedly shown just how easy it is to avoid turning up positive results in drug tests through micro dosing. There are also serious allegations of the UCI being complicit. Onto lances wonderful charity work. It is great he has been able to use his illness to explode awareness of not only testicular cancer, but cancer in general. Just a shame he feels it necessary to bill private jets for charitable work, but hey you know he's not like the rest of us. Now do not think Lance was just the best doper, he hounded and bullied those who spoke out. A certain Simonei dared to testify against Lance Armstrong's personal family friend and notorious doping Dr. Ferrari. Lance responded by denying him a chance in the days break away. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/200...4.tourdefrance1 Not only did Lance dope but he bullied others who spoke out against it.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:48 |
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This article is a pretty decent read on the subject: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mo...ight/?hpt=hp_c1 My favorite part: The fact is, Armstrong never failed a test. And even if you believe his accusers, as I do, you must admit: The accusers make you want to wash your hands. This was a case between a likely drug cheat and obsessive, unlikeable prosecutors, fueled by other drug cheats as witnesses. If this were divorce court and I were a judge, I'd give all the money to the dog. -- That about sums up my feelings on the matter. Lance is probably a cheater, but so is everyone else who was at the top during that time. It's cheaters outing cheaters. In the grand scheme, Lance has done more good than bad in my book, so it's hard to hate the guy.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:50 |
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Rabbi Satan posted:good stuff That's the ultimate thing here - there is so god damned much good he's done that's based on him being clean that will be destroyed by him being found dirty that it's horrible to think about. I mean, honestly, just let it go and let him be the ultimate hero... But do that and then the next generation of monster drug cheats can draw from him... Really, no one wins from this other than science being able to gather more grants and funds to be able to catch people who cheat sooner and more accurately. When the day comes that every single event can come around like Ben Johnson in 88, without question and without denial, maybe we'll finally have the clean sports we want to have. Dusseldorf posted:The coolest thing is every person who came in second to Lance for those 7 TdF wins also got caught doping. I'm not sure if vacating the wins will pass them down the line or if there will be no winner for the year. well, I like to think Steve Bauer was clean*.. he finished something like 100th year after year, so here's hoping!!! *sigh. Steve Bauer probably wasn't clean and still finished 100th year after year. 
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:50 |
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Boon posted:(I don't give a poo poo, Lance Armstrong has done waaaaaaaaaaaay more good for the human race than harm). Not that I care the slightest about professional sports of any kind, but the ends don't really justify the means. As stated earlier, Armstrong bullied the people speaking out. If he really was doping, that was a really lovely thing to do.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:53 |
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The Bible posted:Not that I care the slightest about professional sports of any kind, but the ends don't really justify the means. As stated earlier, Armstrong bullied the people speaking out. If he really was doping, that was a really lovely thing to do. Most of his money came from big corporations looking to cash in on his name. He took that money and used it for good causes. Sounds ok to me.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:56 |
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It's so predictable and happens with every single doping case that the general public(and journalists etc) make up their mind based on if the cheater has the same nationality as they do.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 11:59 |
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| # ? May 21, 2013 06:38 |
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acejackson42 posted:well, I like to think Steve Bauer was clean*.. he finished something like 100th year after year, so here's hoping!!! Well I meant the people who actually finished second those seven years. I'm not sure if they will now be awarded the TdF titles now though.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 12:02 |
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