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jyrka posted:It's so predictable and happens with every single doping case that the general public(and journalists etc) make up their mind based on if the cheater has the same nationality as they do. Wonder what half the deniers would be say had he been a Chinese swimmer. Please note Lance only ever fought process in this case and never the allegations. Once he had lost all his avenues to fight process, he threw in the towel instead of fighting the allegations. That speaks volumes.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 12:05 |
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| # ? May 26, 2013 02:48 |
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I don't know too much about the case presented against him, but I do know that I have always enjoyed Armstrong's fight against cancer and his push for maintaining a healthy lifestyle. I'll read up about the evidence today, but I don't think it will change my mind much - I still like the guy. A Good Article: quote:He made the right decision Thursday. He ended a game he probably deserved to lose. It will be hard for him to vacation in Paris now, but I didn't get the sense he liked those folks much anyway. The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency says Lance Armstrong cheated to win bike races. Armstrong says he is trying to cure cancer. I think a lot of people would rather listen to Armstrong. Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mo.../#ixzz24StA9qJS
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 12:11 |
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jyrka posted:It's so predictable and happens with every single doping case that the general public(and journalists etc) make up their mind based on if the cheater has the same nationality as they do. Good thing I have no allegiance to any country/nationality whatsoever - being a complete eurasian mongrel and having 2 sets of papers/nationalities/passports, HK permanent residency, and a 3rd set coming up if I ever choose to pursue it. I'm definitely casting stones from a lofty perch, but gently caress nationalism, seriously.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 12:17 |
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Dusseldorf posted:Well I meant the people who actually finished second those seven years. I'm not sure if they will now be awarded the TdF titles now though. and I meant the doping disqualifications might get that far down over time. Seriously, if you finished in the top, say, 50 in that race from the 90s to 10s and beyond, you were probably on some sort of drug that either they can't test for or haven't tested for in your sample. Five years from now, god knows what will come out as the WADA and whoever get better and better at catching cheats. So for all I know Steve Bauer is currently in contention for the 1998 Tour de France, unless they find out he was doing duo-di-tri-quint-hista-12-90 (AKA 'TDF water') in 1998. Ninja edit - this testing will only become rampant after cyclists from this era start dying from radiation poisoning. Mark my words...
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 13:13 |
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GlobalMegaCorp posted:Whatever, he was still the best doper in a field of dopers. This is basically where I stand. Everyone in the sport was doping and I'd take steroids myself if they were legal.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 13:15 |
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My mom used to "dope" me with sugar and chocolate before my major exams in elementary school because sugar is brain food and it can provide a mental boost. Professors regularly drink coffee to slog through readings and think better. Apparently we should all be stripped of any accolades because we eat and drink anything.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 13:17 |
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Tezzeract posted:My mom used to "dope" me with sugar and chocolate before my major exams in elementary school because sugar is brain food and it can provide a mental boost. Professors regularly drink coffee to slog through readings and think better. Apparently we should all be stripped of any accolades because we eat and drink anything. The same set of rules that don't allow you to win the Tour on a motorbike also don't allow you to use a specific set of drugs.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 13:19 |
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Dusseldorf posted:Well I meant the people who actually finished second those seven years. I'm not sure if they will now be awarded the TdF titles now though. Pulled from the SAS thread: quote:1999 - Alex Zulle - Admitted EPO use (member of 1998 Festina team) Considering all of those who finished second in those years have all been caught for doping, you're pretty much looking way down the line. And that's if the ICU actually cares all that much about the USADA, which for all that the USADA wants to pretend it can do all sorts of mean things to Lance, all it can make is a recommendation. And then it's up to the ICU's and The TdF's distaste of the USADA versus their distaste of Lance Armstrong. Honestly, as much as there are some parts of the ICU that'd love to have Armstrong's ball in a vice I see them giving the finger to the USADA a lot more likely. TheOneOutside fucked around with this message at Aug 24, 2012 around 13:28 |
| # ? Aug 24, 2012 13:24 |
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It's a bad bunch but why reward any of them they are all dirty. There should be blank spaces next to those years.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 13:45 |
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Pretty much every athlete anywhere even remotely close to the top of their sport is doping so I don't see what the surprise is. Anyone who thinks Armstrong was some sort of cheating exception is a joke. The fact that we're so lenient about this kind of poo poo is the bigger problem, but that's just professional sports these days. I'd love to see fair competition but it just isn't going to happen.
Kit Walker fucked around with this message at Aug 24, 2012 around 14:00 |
| # ? Aug 24, 2012 13:55 |
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Considering there's no "Negative Result" scenario, I'd quit at this point as well. The logic is that "If you're a cyclist, then you're a doper" and "If you pass a test, you cheated a test or the test was worthless." You put the entire pool of cyclist in the "guilty" column that way.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 13:57 |
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kanonvandekempen posted:What is the evidence against him exactly? Literally every single person he beat in all of his wins was doping and has been called on it in addition to every other piece of evidence against him.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:00 |
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Americans at olympics: 'Dirty cheating chinese girl swam faster than Ryan Lochte, impossible! disgraceful cheat, but what do you expect from the chinese?.' Americans on Lance Armstrong: 'Meh, he's still a hero'...weaksauce excuses about everybody doing it anyway, anywhere in competitive sport ever.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:02 |
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It's definitely cheating. Lance Armstrong is a cheater until every single other participant in the TdF or whatever is found guilty of doping.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:02 |
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ChuckMaster posted:Considering there's no "Negative Result" scenario, I'd quit at this point as well. The logic is that "If you're a cyclist, then you're a doper" and "If you pass a test, you cheated a test or the test was worthless." You put the entire pool of cyclist in the "guilty" column that way. This is the logic behind why I think he shouldn't lose his medals, Really the option is He doped or He cheated the test. No one ever says " He didn't dope".
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:03 |
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If literally everyone in the competition is doping, then it's not really cheating is it? Cheating gives you an unfair advantage. If everyone has that advantage, it's not unfair.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:03 |
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Yawgmoth posted:If literally everyone in the competition is doping, then it's not really cheating is it? Cheating gives you an unfair advantage. If everyone has that advantage, it's not unfair. Is there any proof that literally everyone is cheating?
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:04 |
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Yawgmoth posted:If literally everyone in the competition is doping, then it's not really cheating is it? Cheating gives you an unfair advantage. If everyone has that advantage, it's not unfair. Just because everyone has the loving answer sheet to the bloody Bar Exam, doesn't mean it's not cheating. God help us if cheating was condoned and punishment lenient, to non-existent, for exams for Medical Practices like Open Heart Surgery and Rectum Repair.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:10 |
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Apparently if other people get caught cheating and you managed to beat them the only explanation is that you must also have been cheating and just not gotten caught.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:11 |
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I can't say I blame the guy, doing drugs and riding bikes is fun. There should be a huge bike race where everyone is allowed to do whatever the hell substances they want and if they want to have cybernetic feet and goggles and poo poo, well thats cool too. If you want to literally weld yourself to your bicycle and become one with the machine, you can do that.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:12 |
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Scratch Monkey posted:Apparently if other people get caught cheating and you managed to beat them the only explanation is that you must also have been cheating and just not gotten caught. That, and all the positive blood-tests.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:16 |
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Scratch Monkey posted:Apparently if other people get caught cheating and you managed to beat them the only explanation is that you must also have been cheating and just not gotten caught. Lance rode in the EPO era of the sport, failed 2 doping tests, has numerous teammates who were willing to testify against him, worked with the most prolific doping doctor in the history of the sport (who received a lifetime ban from the sport), absolutely destroyed guys who were doped to the gills like Pantani, etc etc. There is no chance Lance was not doping.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:17 |
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Earwicker posted:I can't say I blame the guy, doing drugs and riding bikes is fun. There should be a huge bike race where everyone is allowed to do whatever the hell substances they want and if they want to have cybernetic feet and goggles and poo poo, well thats cool too. If you want to literally weld yourself to your bicycle and become one with the machine, you can do that. And you can train your dog to set traps along the course to help you win.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:19 |
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Scratch Monkey posted:Apparently if other people get caught cheating and you managed to beat them the only explanation is that you must also have been cheating and just not gotten caught. Yeah, when you beat a dude that's been proven to be hopped the gently caress up by as wide of a margin as Lance, it means you're also hopped the gently caress up on whatever.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:20 |
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dnbrwn posted:I don't know too much about the case presented against him, but I do know that I have always enjoyed Armstrong's fight against cancer and his push for maintaining a healthy lifestyle. I'll read up about the evidence today, but I don't think it will change my mind much - I still like the guy. See, I agree with this. Lance Armstrong might have been the dirtiest of dirty dirt dirt cheaters in the history of sports. But look what he did with it. This is a man who made millions upon millions by loving over the guys who finished 250th or so in the Tour de France. The clean guys. He raced dirty, so did everyone else, but he knew it and he made the absolute best of it. He took his millions and sponsors and whatnot and turned it into a cancer-fighting phenomenon. Landis, Contador, Ulrich, Basso, you name it. Maybe they could have done the same, but didn't and well... If Barry Bonds had donated some freakish amount, say $500,000, from every home run he hit in his last four seasons to cancer as he broke Hank Aaron's record, and made a point of smashing the poo poo out of every pitch he could hit, how would he be viewed now? Can you imagine what it would be like as he neared the record sitting on more than $50M donated to cancer in four years? He could look like a combination of Arnold and that dude from Prometheus and no one would care, and he would be a first ballot Hall of Famer. Point being, poo poo, maybe just once in awhile in truly exceptional and unique cases, we should look the other way... but do we look the other way the next time... and if the athlete isn't so great... and...
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:21 |
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Hm, is there any kind of correlation with cancer and doping?
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:21 |
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The doping situation is just lovely all around for everyone involved. The choice to dope is a choice to remain competitive in the field you've trained your entire life to excel in. Your options are to add the medical risks of doping and the high stakes hide and seek of avoiding detection to your life, or of being beaten by everyone else. Yet top level sports are still marketed as this wholesome, you-too-can-achieve, kid friendly inspiration to millions where it's a massive shock when they do catch and make an example of someone. End the status of top level sportsmen as role models to children - or at least make it clear to these kids what's involved instead of carrying on the charade. It's cut throat poo poo where the stakes are fame and millions of dollars that people will do anything to win.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:21 |
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greatn posted:And you can train your dog to set traps along the course to help you win. or you can have a sidecar that the dog rides around in and when you come up on a particularly challenging opponent you can let the dog loose to attack that opponent. You can also carry meat around to distract dogs that have been dispatched against you.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:22 |
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Earwicker posted:or you can have a sidecar that the dog rides around in and when you come up on a particularly challenging opponent you can let the dog loose to attack that opponent. You can also carry meat around to distract dogs that have been dispatched against you. Why stop there? Humvees with GPMGs equipped with depleted Uranium rounds. Operated by Robotic Dogs. On Steroids. ~EXXXTTREEEME BIKE RIDING!~ The Americans will gobble it up. It'll be a hit. Fox
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:31 |
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Correct me if I'm wrong: USADA is to oversee doping charges, etc. on US Olympic Athletes. Lance Armstrong (to my knowledge) was never in the Olympics. 
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:32 |
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JohnnyBigPotatoes posted:Americans at olympics: Good stuff, JohnnyBigPotatoes. Do you have any other funny Americanisms
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:34 |
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acejackson42 posted:See, I agree with this. Lance Armstrong might have been the dirtiest of dirty dirt dirt cheaters in the history of sports. But look what he did with it. This is a man who made millions upon millions by loving over the guys who finished 250th or so in the Tour de France. The clean guys. He raced dirty, so did everyone else, but he knew it and he made the absolute best of it. He took his millions and sponsors and whatnot and turned it into a cancer-fighting phenomenon. The guy made himself very wealthy by stealing something that was rightfully someone else's. I don't see how donating a portion of money you stole makes the stealing any better.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:34 |
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Literally everyone who doped in the TdF is guilty of stealing their placement or win from a legitimate, non-cheating athlete, regardless of how many people were doping.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:36 |
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Three Olives posted:The guy made himself very wealthy by stealing something that was rightfully someone else's. I don't see how donating a portion of money you stole makes the stealing any better. Not to mention being sponsored by a government agency, US Postal, who paid him 80 million dollars and that whole drug trafficking thing.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:38 |
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Even if all the top guys of those years were on dope, it's still cheating. All #2 guys have been caught and had to pay the price. So now it is Lance's turn. What he did with his money or if it was still an accomplishment or whatever doesn't play in the equation. He cheated, he got caught, he has to pay the price.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:39 |
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TheRat posted:That, and all the positive blood-tests. You mean the positive tests that nobody has seen and are only mentioned by demonstrably guilty people as part of some conspiracy?
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:42 |
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Boner Slam posted:Even if all the top guys of those years were on dope, it's still cheating. So do you or anyone else in the thread understand that he didn't get caught, hasn't been proven guilty, and probably never will be?
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:42 |
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Warchicken posted:So do you or anyone else in the thread understand that he didn't get caught, hasn't been proven guilty, and probably never will be? Seems to me that he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:43 |
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Warchicken posted:So do you or anyone else in the thread understand that he didn't get caught, hasn't been proven guilty, and probably never will be? And he was just coincidentally better than a bunch of dudes that were doped to poo poo, and only fought the process of charging him, and at this point his success can't be explained away as one ball, chemotherapy, abnormally large lungs and heart?
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:45 |
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| # ? May 26, 2013 02:48 |
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Warchicken posted:So do you or anyone else in the thread understand that he didn't get caught, hasn't been proven guilty, and probably never will be? You do not train for years, logging hundreds of thousands of miles and not fight for your titles if you aren't guilty. This is basically an admission that he doped.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 14:45 |
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