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Obligatory Handle posted:I know his winning of the Tour de France seven times certainly helped the organization, but the end truly justifies the means here. Yep. This will be almost completely forgotten about in a couple weeks. American football season is here now, people's attentions to Lance will be gone in no time.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 19:45 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 15:05 |
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Panzeh posted:People cheat in every sport. Should we ban Rudy Fernandez from basketball for his flopping act against France and the USA? Flopping is a totally different from doping and the refs can call you on it, so I'm not seeing the comparison. Plus, all kinds of stuff happens in the peloton that would be the equivalent of a flop and nobody is really complaining about that here, or in the sport in general.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 19:53 |
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I can't believe people are defending him still. The guy seems like a total narcissist. From his pathological lying to his phoney and cheesy charity (which apparently doesn't even contribute to cancer research, but of course made Lance and Nike millions) he just seems like an unlikable guy. Not only did the guy flat out lie, he was cheeky about it, such as making Nike commercials bragging about how the only thing he is on is his bike.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 19:58 |
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Seriously is there ANY former teammate of Lance's that has a positive thing to say about him?
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:01 |
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Obligatory Handle posted:In the end, the good he has done will outweigh the wrong. When you have an organization that has brought in half a billion dollars to support people with cancer, who gives a poo poo about cheating to win some bike races?
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:05 |
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But what happens when one douche creates a charity bike for another douche? Something pretty awesome actually.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:06 |
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please respond posted:What good has he done besides line his pockets with his sham charity that steers money away from legitimate cancer research? I'm unaware of any of this. I'll read up on it. I have never heard such accusations before this thread.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:07 |
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Obligatory Handle posted:In the end, the good he has done will outweigh the wrong. When you have an organization that has brought in half a billion dollars to support people with cancer, who gives a poo poo about cheating to win some bike races? Everyone loves an ends justifies the means argument.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:10 |
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Obligatory Handle posted:I'm unaware of any of this. I'll read up on it. I have never heard such accusations before this thread.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:10 |
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Calling it doping sounds like the hype machine simplifying something complicated. He sounds like a tool, but as an outsider it's hard for me to come to a conclusion about an act labeled so vaguely. It would be nice if the OP had some actual hard evidence.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:11 |
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decrypt key posted:Calling it doping sounds like the hype machine simplifying something complicated. He sounds like a tool, but as an outsider it's hard for me to come to a conclusion about an act labeled so vaguely. It would be nice if the OP had some actual hard evidence. from the SAS thread: http://nyvelocity.com/content/inter...ichael-ashenden
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:22 |
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please respond posted:Here's a good writeup on it http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoo...s.html?page=all I see. So only about $20 million has gone to cancer research. Judging from the quotes in the article, they have steered toward supporting people with cancer (which is what I actually said in my post, "brought in half a billion dollars to support people with cancer"). This is what I believed the charity to be all about anyway, as their website and other things are geared toward helping individuals beat cancer through better diet, emotional support, etc. etc. That article wasn't that damning, to me. Sure, it has some people making some pretty solid paychecks (as most "non-profits" do) and a few other questionable tactics, but it does not seem like a "scam" charity by any means.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:28 |
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Well that and there is a very murky line between Livestrong the charity and Livestrong the business, Livestrong.com is a poo poo content farm with SEO optimized articles about retarded poo poo and when you buy Livestrong gear are you supporting the cancer org that does ??? Or just lining Lance's pockets?
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:32 |
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Adulterous Hitler posted:To be fair, they do have ten witnesses prepared to testify under oath that he frequently and systematically used doping and even administered it to the rest of the team. Apparently, you don't know how prosecutions like this work. They want to get the top guy, say Armstrong. They find one guy they can prove doped, then they roll on him. He's told that he's not really who they're after. He's just the small fish who got caught. But if he'll just testify that these other guys doped too, then they'll let him off with a minor fine and no real penalties. He realizes that if he just says what they want to hear -- that Armstrong and a few other guys, including this one guy they've also got evidence on already, doped it up -- he's home free. Then the prosecutors move to the next guy. Not only do they have evidence, they've got an eyewitness who will testify you did it. Of course, you'll also get off light if you just say you saw others do it. Slowly, you build your "case". Before long, you have 10 guys who all say they saw Lance Armstrong dope.... but that doesn't make it so any more than if you waterboard 10 terrorists and they tell you that they met Obama at a Taliban training camp. http://danielsethics.mgt.unm.edu/pd...cution%20DI.pdf
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:34 |
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einTier posted:Apparently, you don't know how prosecutions like this work. Except that none of the witnesses were ever facing charges for anything so your entire analogy is poo poo. This is the USADA, not a federal attorney's office.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:37 |
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einTier posted:Apparently, you don't know how prosecutions like this work.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:38 |
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einTier posted:Apparently, you don't know how prosecutions like this work. Except one of the guys is George Hincapie. In Armstrong's book Lance wrote that George was like a brother to him and they have a well documented great relationship. Hincapie is also the most respected active US cyclist active right now and in history. He is nick named the 'peloton's nicest guy'. Hincapie was Armstrong's main domestique for every tour victory. Him along with the other witnesses are incredibly damning. These aren't guys Lance randomly rode with, but guys who were very close to him throughout his entire career.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:47 |
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The denial fans have in this case is amazing. It really just shows you how idiotic people can be in the face of good marketing campaigns.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 20:54 |
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jyrka posted:No, what did you do there? They're both dumb statements on a fundamental level.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 21:23 |
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I was in denial for about four seconds before I realized I was thinking like a Penn State fan.  Sucks that Lance was caught, but what the gently caress ever. I didn't even follow cycling anyways and will continue to not.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 21:29 |
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kwohlge posted:The denial fans have in this case is amazing. It really just shows you how idiotic people can be in the face of good marketing campaigns. *Cough* Assange *cough*. I'm really disappointed to see this, as I viewed this guy as an inspiration. To recover from cancer and win the Tour repeatedly showed what determination and willpower accomplishes. Or so I thought. Instead he's a lying cheat, and who's to say that the main reason for winning all those Tours was due to his body responding to the doping far better than anyone else? He's a real prick for cheating and then repeatedly emphasising to everybody that he wasn't. Almost as if by saying it enough times it becomes true.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 21:34 |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXPXHK7I1iQ Here's Armstrong sprinting up a mountain to beat Ulrich who was convicted of doping, and nearly beat Pantani who was also convicted of doping, along with probably 5 other people. You don't get that sort of edge on a field of naturally gifted people who are using performance enhancing drugs without abusing performance enhancing drugs.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 21:36 |
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Andy Dufresne posted:Except that none of the witnesses were ever facing charges for anything so your entire analogy is poo poo. This is the USADA, not a federal attorney's office. He might have doped. I'm even inclined to believe he probably did, along with everyone else at the top of the field during those years. But I also think at this point, it's turned into a vendetta. Even if Armstrong was innocent, the way the system is set up, it'll be nearly impossible for him to prove and even then, the USADA can appeal and the whole process starts over. It's taken him years of fighting and tons of money to get this far, I can understand saying "gently caress it". He could fight another decade and still be in the same position, just out a lot of time, energy, and millions of dollars. Plus, let's say he did do it. Who do the wins go to? Jan Ullrich? We know he was doping, he got caught doing it. Are you going to investigate each of the next ten, fifteen, or however many riders for the next 12 years? Taking it from one doper and awarding it to another isn't justice. gently caress, I'm not even an Armstrong fan.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 21:36 |
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I'm pretty surprised that there are actually people still defending him after today. I kind of figured most people had accepted years ago that everybody was doping. I was on the crew of a cross-country cycling trip in the early 2000's, everyone was obsessed with him at the time. Ah, to be young and naive and not yet cynical... at least he's still got the whole surviving cancer thing going for him.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 21:43 |
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I never really understood the ban in sports against chemical enhancements. I mean they use modern medicine, modern techniques for exercise, diet, vitamins, etc.. All to be better than those before them. It just doesn't have a good moral cause to it at all, it's not immoral as their doing it to themselves. I mean I understand it can gently caress their bodies up but so can other substances.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 21:47 |
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Hollis posted:I never really understood the ban in sports against chemical enhancements. I mean they use modern medicine, modern techniques for exercise, diet, vitamins, etc.. All to be better than those before them.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 21:51 |
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Fuzzy Pipe Wrench posted:Make doping mandatory. No joke, think of the profits and R&D progress towards treatment of injuries, to be made by the medical industry... and the jobs created by expanding performance to the 99% who never would've been accepted as a bat boy, much less a full-fledged player. That said, keep the poo poo away from the NFL. Those guys are damned near strong enough to kill each other now. They don't need any more help. Mister Macys fucked around with this message at Aug 24, 2012 around 21:55 |
| # ? Aug 24, 2012 21:52 |
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Hollis posted:I never really understood the ban in sports against chemical enhancements. I mean they use modern medicine, modern techniques for exercise, diet, vitamins, etc.. All to be better than those before them. Ask professional wrestling how well this worked.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 21:54 |
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Hollis posted:I never really understood the ban in sports against chemical enhancements. I mean they use modern medicine, modern techniques for exercise, diet, vitamins, etc.. All to be better than those before them. Everyone that is a pro has access to medicine, good diet, etc. Only a select few have the $$$ to work with the best doping doctors and access to new generations of EPO and now quality gw1516/aicar. People respond very differently to EPO and Lance was the best responder of his generation. Manipulating blood is extremely dangerous as you can stroke out once you push your hematocrit to 60% (50% is the banned ceiling).
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 21:54 |
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ElwoodCuse posted:Ask professional wrestling how well this worked. Ask the MLBPA. Even the retirees who are known/alleged dopers are still in great shape. Hell, look at Lance himself. If he was doping, the motherfucker still beat cancer. Mister Macys fucked around with this message at Aug 24, 2012 around 22:02 |
| # ? Aug 24, 2012 21:56 |
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ElwoodCuse posted:Ask professional wrestling how well this worked. Here's the thing with doping etc.. First off the main problem of Proffessional Wrestling is that it's a damage intensive schedule where performers have to perform night after night to meet a ridiculous schedule. Lance Armstrong doesn't run a race every single week. That's the main reason wrestlers turn to drugs,etc.. There's no regulation in the industry what so ever..no unions , no workers rights, or working conditions. Professional Sports are a different area. Basically, because it has to be hidden real serious problems cannot be addressed. The althete can't go to his coach and be like look I am having problems I need to address these medications. Instead he has to go basically "crooked" physicians. Where as real access and real monitoring of how these althetes used these chemicals would be a better situation. That's really why you see these issues, people aren't able to adequately monitor what their going through at the time. Cycling is a physical sport, yes it takes I guess some talent to cycle as far as body position etc.. I don't know. But ultimately it comes down to the physical. Instead of banning all substances, then they should really evaluate what substances are allowed and be closely monitored for severe side effects. It's healthier and doesn't lead to "back" alley doctors etc..
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 22:04 |
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Mister Macys posted:Ask the MLBPA. Former steroid abusers are not in great shape. Mentally or physically. Just ask Chris Benoit.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 22:05 |
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Mister Macys posted:Ask the MLBPA. But what if the doping caused the cancer?
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 22:05 |
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So if you look at Livestrong's 2010 IRS 990, the foundation had $96 million in total assets and gave away $9 million which is twice as much as is required by law. A lot of foundations will only give away the minimum 5%. There is no research money at all in the list of donations. There is a lot of community outreach and meeting sponsorships, so the foundation definitely no longer gives money to research but does give a lot to support programs, a lot of which look perfectly legitimate. Charity navigator rates the foundation highly but it it important to understand what the foundations mission is, which I expect heavily informs CN's rating. I don't htink you can dismiss those programs but I think that the foundation's reputation for fighting cancer is a little overstated after looking at what it actually does.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 22:13 |
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jimmynmu posted:Former steroid abusers are not in great shape. Mentally or physically. Just ask Chris Benoit. Christ Benoit also abused multiple other substances and had a work schedule and performance schedule that led to him suffering from dementia similar to what boxers suffer."Proffessional" Wrestling is a sham, it's a business of entertainment that has zero over sight whatsoever. Again it's not comparable at all to other sports due to this. Basically, someone who is on a regiment of steroids would have to be monitored etc.. instead of saying X is illegal. X is allowed under specific conditions. Also, if the regulatory agency had only one doctor and specific drugs that were allowed under specific conditions you'd see a better turn out health wise from athletes.By Banning and testing substances you just made a "race" of who can use the best doping in order to win and not get caught which is exactly what is happening right now. There's nothing that can be done about it now, it's going to happen the question is whether they'll move to instead make sure the players health is more important. Also, the idea you can take drugs and immediately become amazing at something is ridiculous. You still have to have skill. I can't take steroids bulk up and go be a amazing baseball player mainly because I don't know anything whatsoever about baseball at all. Hollis fucked around with this message at Aug 24, 2012 around 22:20 |
| # ? Aug 24, 2012 22:18 |
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jimmynmu posted:Former steroid abusers are not in great shape. Mentally or physically. Just ask Chris Benoit. What does this even mean in the context of the argument against steroids? Wasn't it agreed that Benoit's psychosis, or whatever the technical term is, came from repeated brain injuries? If I'm wrong, please correct me.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 22:20 |
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Hollis posted:Here's the thing with doping etc.. First off the main problem of Proffessional Wrestling is that it's a damage intensive schedule where performers have to perform night after night to meet a ridiculous schedule. Lance Armstrong doesn't run a race every single week. Lance's training regime was 30+ hours a week of intense riding, in the mountains at high altitudes, so don't make it out like professional wrestlers have a more demanding schedule. As for coaching, Johan Bruyneel was the coach and ran a systematic doping program for his team. It's not something you have to hide from your team, which is why the testimony of teammates is so damaging. The code of silence is a real thing in cycling and you don't talk about drugs. Guys like Lance have an advantage because they have the money to pay $500k for Dr. Ferrari to write them a schedule for doping use that is flawless and evades the testing.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 22:20 |
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JerryLee posted:What does this even mean in the context of the argument against steroids? Wasn't it agreed that Benoit's psychosis, or whatever the technical term is, came from repeated brain injuries? If I'm wrong, please correct me. Macho Man had a heart attack and drove into a tree. The British Bulldog had an enlarged Heart and subsequently died. Heart attacks are common for ex 80's (steroid era) wrestlers who don't die in the other horrific ways they've managed to.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 22:24 |
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Rerun posted:Lance's training regime was 30+ hours a week of intense riding, in the mountains at high altitudes, so don't make it out like professional wrestlers have a more demanding schedule. Lance Armstrong didn't jump off a turnbuckle and smash his head into someone 6 out of 7 nights of a week for 12 months. Proffessional Wrestlers are loving wrecks. Absolute wrecks, it's a huge intensive physically demanding schedule. I'm not a professional wrestling fan BTW, just there have been a lot of articles on this. I've never heard of a cyclist suffering from severe dementia due to sport injuries and brutally murdering his family. It may be fake but it's a severely physical and demanding sport rampant with drug abuse etc.. And if they were open about it? I mean demand raises prices really. It would most certainly level the playing field if as a organization they instead carefully monitored teams doping regimes to ensure player health. Instead of what their doing now. I really relate it to the abortion ethically dilemma for years it was illegal and women had to suffer from improper abortions that caused death or injury.
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 22:26 |
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| # ? May 18, 2013 15:05 |
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Please stop with the legalize doping thing. Once you do that everybody in the sport who wants to compete and earn good money will be forced to dope. You're basically advocating for removing any chance of having a clean sport and having any pro cyclist have any integrity which is total bullshit. What the hell is wrong with people?
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| # ? Aug 24, 2012 22:26 |
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