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Above Our Own posted:I think plot and narrative are the most banal, elementary components of literature. Suttree abandons them for better things. That's kind of a harsh statement, in my opinion. Stories are stories. They have been since we as a race talked about the Great Boar Hunt around the fire while we wore skins and carried spears. I'd argue that narrative is elementary, yes--something has to happen, even if it's just a guy getting a glass of water, like Vonnegut said--but without it, you don't have a story. And most literature, however you define it, has narrative at its core. All of Shakespeare's plays do. All of Dickens, all the New Woman books. Even Suttree does. No plot, not exactly, but still a narrative. The thing that makes stories into literature--at least the way I figure it--is that the stories say something beyond the level of the narrative, something insightful that resonates no matter how old the story is. But without the narrative, it's just a batter-bowl of ideas. I mean, take a look at Hamlet. There's a whole lot in there about human nature--about our capacity for obsession and how we can't step out of the way of onrushing tragedy, among other things--but at its core, it's just one hell of a plot-twisty revenge story. edit: This is also coming from the guy who thinks that Spartacus: Gods of the Arena is one of the greatest television series in the last ten years, so take my opinion as you will. Asbury fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Apr 25, 2013 |
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Apr 25, 2013 20:06
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So... 'soo-tree', 'suh-tree'... where are we landing on that? I agree with Ebert about the description of the hangover. The one where he wakes up in the car... I was almost in tangible physical pain while reading it. I didn't even finish the book and I can still vividly picture what that passage conjured up.
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Apr 26, 2013 04:50
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I figured it was pronounced suht-tree. Mostly becaus all his pals kept saying ol' sut.
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Apr 26, 2013 18:00
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Finished Outer Dark. I really loved the dual styles of language he used. Simple, appalachian dialect spoken by the various characters while the environment used the full lexicon, it seems. A precursor to Judge Holden stalks the land as well.
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May 5, 2013 03:01
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3Romeo posted:edit: This is also coming from the guy who thinks that Spartacus: Gods of the Arena is one of the greatest television series in the last ten years, so take my opinion as you will. Since you've got that Al Swearengen avatar, I'm inclined to think most of your opinions on storytelling of any kind are probably valid. Also, I like your explanation about stories vs. literature; it's kind of what I'm always trying to get at when I get drunk and start in on my "what is/isn't literature" rant (I am terrible to drink with). So I'm re-reading Blood Meridian again because that's what I do whenever life starts to upset me, and this is just the best book to re-read, because I keep coming across new amazing passages that somehow slipped by me all the other times. For example: Blood Meridian posted:For this will to deceive that is in things luminous may manifest itself likewise in retrospect and so by sleight of some fixed part of a journey already accomplished may also post men to fraudulent destinies. The only bad thing about this book is that I'm afraid I might never find another writer who's that amazing with words. e: Also, I always thought it was "suht-tree," although I suppose it could go either way, really.
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May 5, 2013 03:52
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I've got about 50 pages left in The Crossing, and I'm still trying to gather my thoughts on how I feel about it. I was actually thinking on giving up on it, something I've never done with a McCarthy book, until I realized that literally everything in the first 300 pages of the book are there to put context for one very specific end. There's a scene where Billy is laying under the stars after he founds out about Boyd's likely death, and he realizes whoever he was before the events of the book is dead. The book puts it like this: "He seemed to himself a person with no prior life." This is exactly what happens in the tale of the Blind Man, and in the Mormon priest's story. McCarthy tells us all these parables and shows us all these events with no context, and that little paragraph makes it all make sense. Of course, this is only my interpretation so far. But if it's true, it is incredible. I think it's even bleaker than Blood Meridian and The Road in some ways, with the themes of apostasy and hinting that the true nature of God is more terrifying than we can imagine. As far as the Border Trilogy goes, I was more of a fan of Pretty Horses, but I can't wait to finish this and get on to Cities of the Plain.
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May 5, 2013 22:39
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Low Desert Punk posted:I think it's even bleaker than Blood Meridian and The Road in some ways, with the themes of apostasy and hinting that the true nature of God is more terrifying than we can imagine. As far as the Border Trilogy goes, I was more of a fan of Pretty Horses, but I can't wait to finish this and get on to Cities of the Plain. If you wanna throw it in black block, what do you mean by that? I haven't read the border trilogy yet and itll be a while until I find the time but I'm kinda intrigued but what prompts you to say that.
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May 5, 2013 23:40
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Frostwerks posted:If you wanna throw it in black block, what do you mean by that? I haven't read the border trilogy yet and itll be a while until I find the time but I'm kinda intrigued but what prompts you to say that. I assume you're talking about what's spoilered in that post. I'll explain it anyway, but I really reccomend you just find it out on your own when you read the book. It's the tail end of the Mormon priest's story which has been mentioned in a positive light here already. The story concerns a man who survives two earthquakes, and believes that he has been kept alive by God to fulfill a purpose in the world. As he becomes elderly and only tragedy befalls him, he becomes bitter and a heretic. However, he eventually begins to believe the whole reason he was kept alive was, in fact, to doubt God in the first place, a witness for God so that his own existence may be called into question. It is implied, by the man's belief anyway, that God can not know he's really real without one. The man eventually dies realizing he was wrong, and all attempts to understand God in a conventional sense are foolish, and the true nature of God can not be sought out and found. It must be delivered. The story ends with the conclusion that God needs no witness at all, and that He created the world with a single objective truth and identity. This truth is so great and powerful that it changes the souls of men who find it forever. The ideas of predestination and unknown motives of God are pretty frightening to me. You could also make the argument that Billy finds this truth in the same moment he realizes his past self is dead, but that's another discussion altogether.
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May 6, 2013 00:11
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That's a really good insight, Low Desert Punk. I've struggled to see how The Crossing fits with the other two books in the trilogy, but that really helps me understand it. Really drives home the difference between John Grady and Billy.
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May 6, 2013 13:57
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This thread always makes me want to pick up a McCarthy book, but the example passages put up by some posters make me want to pass. I've always been a fast reader who will occasionally skim paragraphs to glean what's going on and just re-read the book if I want more details. I don't think you can really do that with McCarthy. For every book excerpt posted in the last few pages, I've had to read the words two to three times to start figuring out what they mean. I can understand the prose and the way he uses words, but not what it is actually saying until that little 'lightbulb' moment where everything makes sense. And imagining having to do that for every sentence in a full book is just exhausting. Maybe in the winter.
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May 6, 2013 19:37
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That's exactly what makes it so rewarding. I mean, I read all kinds of stuff, but most of what I read, I read for the same reason I watch Hannibal or Spartacus or Game of Thrones: it's all entertainment. Sure, there's art and symbolism in that sort of thing (of various amounts) but it all works on a story level perfectly well. With most McCarthy, the craft and the story work together in tandem. You absolutely have to pay attention. In point of fact, it demands it. Like, you can't read his stuff with music or television or the noise of children in the background. It can be an endurance test, but like anything else, the more you do it, the easier it is.
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May 6, 2013 19:52
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Yeah, I remember Blood Meridian was an absolute slog for me the first time I read it (in a good way, though!). In subsequent rereads, I've been amazed at how much easier it gets each time for me to understand the way McCarthy writes. One bad thing is I'm pretty sure reading so much of him has hosed with the way I read everything else, because in the past couple years I have become a painfully slow reader. And Low Desert Punk, I also really like your theory about The Crossing. I've been wanting to reread the Border Trilogy for a while now, so I'm really gonna have to start in on that soon.
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May 7, 2013 02:24
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I wouldn't worry about dissecting and analyzing each passage of a McCarthy book if it's your first time reading him. That's for your next read through, and if you end up digging McCarthy you'll definitely be keeping his books around and coming back to them every once in awhile.
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May 7, 2013 02:28
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Hey, I found an exclamation point.Suttree, pg 103 posted:poo poo! screamed Harrogate. Leg bit by a hobo. Oh, Harrogate.
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May 7, 2013 02:45
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Never has an exclamation point been more appropriate
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May 7, 2013 03:36
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3Romeo posted:That's exactly what makes it so rewarding. I mean, I read all kinds of stuff, but most of what I read, I read for the same reason I watch Hannibal or Spartacus or Game of Thrones: it's all entertainment. Sure, there's art and symbolism in that sort of thing (of various amounts) but it all works on a story level perfectly well. With most McCarthy, the craft and the story work together in tandem. You absolutely have to pay attention. In point of fact, it demands it. Like, you can't read his stuff with music or television or the noise of children in the background. It can be an endurance test, but like anything else, the more you do it, the easier it is. I get that, and his books are definitely only my "to-read" list. I just don't fancy diving in to any involving books when it's my last real summer and the weather is perfect for the pool 
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May 7, 2013 05:44
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Excellent philosophy. Never waste a good summer day.
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May 7, 2013 06:17
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Democratic Pirate posted:I get that, and his books are definitely only my "to-read" list. I just don't fancy diving in to any involving books when it's my last real summer and the weather is perfect for the pool Nothing more relaxing than floating in an inner tube in the middle of a pool with a good book my friend. Hell, I'd argue there's no more a perfect environment to read Suttree than there, floating lackadaisical on a warm summer day.
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May 7, 2013 22:46
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3Romeo posted:Anything you're forced to read always sucks. I'm going to have to disagree with this. I had to read Confederacy of Dunces and that is probably my favorite book ever. Same thing with the Divine Comedy. Maybe I'm just weird. I'd also love to take a class on McCarthy. Also I just ordered Suttree so I can chime in. KidDynamite fucked around with this message at 10:23 on May 8, 2013 |
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May 8, 2013 10:21
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That's fair. I generalized the hell out of things with a statement like that--to be honest, I was assigned to read some pretty good stuff in college. (Hell, I'd never've read Dune otherwise.) I suppose that was more of a backhanded complaint against the process of teaching lit. When you have a good teacher (at whatever level), they're some great classes, but when you have a bad one, they suck right out loud. I've lost enjoyment in more than a few books (Gatsby, for example) that, had I read for fun, I probably would've liked.
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May 8, 2013 15:31
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Something else that puts me in awe of McCarthy is just how much knowledge and vocabulary the man has. I've been meaning to ask a few of my friends involved in equestrian ventures how accurate all the vocabulary and actions involving horses are. In both the Crossing and All the Pretty Horses (and to a certain extent in Blood Meridian) he'll detail every little bit of the process, right down to the individual ropes and bits. I live in the South where there's still a certain amount of horse riding, but I've unfortunately never been involved. He talks about this stuff like it's second nature to him. I don't have any doubts, since McCarthy always seems to know exactly what he's talking about, but if any of you are familiar with that sort of thing, I'm curious. If I can say anything, I do know he's pretty accurate with black powder firearms in Blood Meridian. The loading process is spot-on, for one thing. I'm excluding the scene where the Judge makes gunpowder, of course, mostly because there seems to be some supernatural happenings there making it possible. I might make an  post sometime talking about firearms in the works of Cormac McCarthy, both explicitly mentioned and what I theorize are being used based on the time period and other clues. The point is, he knows his stuff, and it almost seems impossible how wide his knowledge reaches.
Low Desert Punk fucked around with this message at 00:24 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 00:18
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What was supernatural about the powder? If anything it only seemed that way to Tobin because the Judge's knowledge of scientific processes was so exact so as to appear supernatural, when really the Learned Man is exactly that.
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May 9, 2013 06:27
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Low Desert Punk posted:I might make an
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May 9, 2013 06:34
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ruddiger posted:Nothing more relaxing than floating in an inner tube in the middle of a pool with a good book my friend. Hell, I'd argue there's no more a perfect environment to read Suttree than there, floating lackadaisical on a warm summer day. I blew threw Child of God last summer laying on a raft one afternoon.
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May 9, 2013 09:15
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Frostwerks posted:What was supernatural about the powder? If anything it only seemed that way to Tobin because the Judge's knowledge of scientific processes was so exact so as to appear supernatural, when really the Learned Man is exactly that. I guess it could be theoretically possible to create powder the way the Judge does. I don't have the book in front of me, but I seem to remember all the ingredients being there. It's really just interpretation, I've always thought of it as an an example of a possible supernatural aspect of the Judge, since the powder he makes probably shouldn't work as well as it does. My thought was that the entire scene on the volcano was orchestrated by the Judge in order to prove his power and leadership. No interpretation is right or wrong, though.
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May 9, 2013 11:36
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Low Desert Punk posted:I guess it could be theoretically possible to create powder the way the Judge does. I don't have the book in front of me, but I seem to remember all the ingredients being there. It's really just interpretation, I've always thought of it as an an example of a possible supernatural aspect of the Judge, since the powder he makes probably shouldn't work as well as it does. My thought was that the entire scene on the volcano was orchestrated by the Judge in order to prove his power and leadership. No interpretation is right or wrong, though. There was something in Notes on Blood Meridian saying that it was a valid recipe. The strange thing was that it didn't misfire once, which I understand was quite common of the gunpowder of the time. Reivax fucked around with this message at 15:08 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 15:06
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I think there's a mystic element to the Judge that isn't designed to be decoded. Like a kind of living symbol.quote:Whatever his antecedents, he was something wholly other than their sum, nor was there system by which to divide him back into his origins for he would not go. Whoever would seek out his history through what unraveling of loins and ledgerbooks must stand at last darkened and dumb at the shore of a void without terminus or origin and whatever science he might bring to bear upon the dusty primal matter blowing down out of the millennia will discover no trace of any ultimate atavistic egg by which to reckon his commencing.
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May 9, 2013 20:28
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To me, that passage evokes the ontological gap between man and nature, in part because the Judge is to his foes as we are to this planet: a radical breach in the organic order, and an invincible force of sundering.
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May 9, 2013 21:01
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mdemone posted:To me, that passage evokes the ontological gap between man and nature, in part because the Judge is to his foes as we are to this planet: a radical breach in the organic order, and an invincible force of sundering. quote:The truth about the world, he said, is that anything is possible. Had you not seen it all from birth and thereby bled it of its strangeness it would appear to you for what it is, a hat trick in a medicine show, a fevered dream, a trance bepopulate with chimeras having neither analogue nor precedent, an itinerant carnival, a migratory tentshow whose ultimate destination after many a pitch in many a mudded field is unspeakable and calamitous beyond reckoning. But I think the Judge manifests the closing of that gap, the conquest of will over the natural order. quote:Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth.
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May 11, 2013 20:01
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Since reading McCarthy, I've also become an avid Herzog fan, and it's amazing to me now to see just how like-minded they seem to be in their treatment of nature. It's no wonder they were on NPR together with Herzog reading an excerpt from All The Pretty Horses. Their fascination with man's deeply hostile and vulernable relation to nature is shared, and very very sobering. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTVlifTAdlM
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May 17, 2013 20:21
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Jewmanji posted:Since reading McCarthy, I've also become an avid Herzog fan, and it's amazing to me now to see just how like-minded they seem to be in their treatment of nature. It's no wonder they were on NPR together with Herzog reading an excerpt from All The Pretty Horses. Their fascination with man's deeply hostile and vulernable relation to nature is shared, and very very sobering. Was it you who posted this in Only God Forgives thread? In any case I don't particularly care who would adapt Blood Meridian so long as they're good and so long it isn't confined to the length of even a long movie.
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May 18, 2013 00:46
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Just finished Suttree. poo poo godddamn.
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May 19, 2013 05:04
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My favourite Cormac McCarthy quote: "I'm not interested in writing short stories. Anything that doesn't take years of your life and drive you to suicide hardly seems worth doing." I had started doing a "words I didn't know the meaning of" blog for Suttree, and I think I need to pick it back up again. I don't want to be friends with anyone who doesn't like that book. He's drat near screwed the whole patch!
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Jun 14, 2013 13:06
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Well I'm glad this thread got bumped. A while back somebody did a blog post on a very old word used in The Road. It was described as referring to the life blood or force of God, and how it was disappearing from the world. Does anyone remember this? I've been trying to remember what the word was for a few days and it's driving me up the wall. edit: Just found it. The word was "salitter". More here if anyone cares: http://thefirstmorning.com/2008/09/11/salitter/
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Jun 14, 2013 15:37
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mennoknight posted:He's drat near screwed the whole patch! That entire dialogue is one of the funniest exchanges in modern literature. I have to append this, because I lose my poo poo every time I hit the line "No. No. Hell no. drat you if you ain't got a warped mind."
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Jun 14, 2013 16:56
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Holy poo poo, I need to read Suttree for real now. It was one of my favorite bathroom "flip to random page and see what's going down in tennessee" deals but I really feel I need to give it an honest read-through.
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Jun 15, 2013 05:36
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I've been hearing a lot about Suttree lately, which I'm taking as a sign to read it. I'm hoping to do that soon, now that I've got Blood Meridian, No Country, and The Road under my belt.
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Jun 16, 2013 02:05
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I've still got to read the Border trilogy, Suttree and Child of God, but they're on my iPad and it's only a matter of time. Anyway, I was in a small hostel in a foreign country and we all discovered we'd read Blood Meridian at some distant point in the past and we had this mild argument over what happened at the end. I was saying The Judge pulled the young man into a toilet and hosed him until the book closed. An american girl claimed in the end he dances into forever with a fiddle. A French Canadian said it ended with someone mining or something, but he couldn't remember, but he also remembered The Judge loving the boy. The American girl said she was sure the judge killed him and then danced forever with a fiddle. The French Canadian remembered there was a dead bear. I was sure The Judge hosed the young man well into the author's note and possibly past the back cover blurb. I kinda hope I was right because I was really explicit on the man love aspect of it.
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Jun 16, 2013 02:45
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All of those are right, pretty much. The loving isn't explicit but a lot of people are fairly certain that's what happened in the jacks; that's the interpretation I think fits the best, anyway. Although I don't think he does it for the sake of man love so much as because he's hell-bent on controlling everything on earth. Also, it's weird how funny Blood Meridian can be at points. quote:Jackson, pistols drawn, lurched into the street vowing to shoot the rear end off Jesus Christ, the longlegged white son of a bitch.
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Jun 16, 2013 03:03
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I found two passages from The Crossing saved in my TwitLonger. That first one makes me laugh at just how strong of a picture you can get in your mind from the last part.Cormac McCarthy posted:He and Boyd found the cow in the early afternoon of the day following. She was standing at the edge of the cedars watching them. The rest of the cattle were drifting along the lower edge of the vega. She was an old cow and she'd probably been alone when she walked in the set up on the mountain. They turned into the woods above her to head her out into the open but when she saw what they were about she turned and went back into the cedars. Boyd booted his horse through the trees and cut her off and got a loop on her and dallied and when she hit the end of the rope the girthstrap broke and the saddle was snatched from under him and disappeared down the slope behind the cow whacking and banging off of the trunks of trees. Cormac McCarthy posted:He asked the old man if he knew where they had gone but the old man seemed not to have a clear understanding of the idea of destination. He gestured widely at the world.
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Jun 16, 2013 03:23
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