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Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!

I assuming that while you sketch out a 'floorplan' there aren't actually DF style interiors where you get to place beds and tables and such? It's just building exteriors.

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aldantefax
Oct 10, 2007

ALWAYS BE MECHFISHIN'

Neat. I can certainly see a large amount of the people from the DF crowd and the other wider simulation crowd picking up interest in this, especially given the fact that you guys have like five pages of interview coverage already up (which is kind of insane). Do you guys have any plans for long term support like, I dunno, DLC, new asset packs (sound/art/etc.), things like that?

ToxicFrog
Apr 26, 2008


nvining posted:

- There is some talk of scripting languages from Micah. So some portion of the game logic will be broken out to a script for editing and manipulation, but it's not totally clear what this looks like yet.



I dabbled in Dredmor modding a bit, but lacking any sort of scripting capability and having to everything in XML of all things kind of drove me crazy. This is good news.

Lizard Wizard
Dec 25, 2004

Well, what did you expect?


How accessible are you going to make this? That's the huge thing I loved about Dredmor, the easy learnability and whatnot.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

You're trying to say that you like DOS better then me, right?

Junior Bureaucrat Log: Entry 539

The pipe surplus crisis is solved! Dr. Nimrod's discovery of "Psychoetheric Plasma" is going to create a Utopia, and I'll get all the credit!

Junior Bureaucrat Log: Entry 541

Everything is coming along nicely. Dr. Nimrod has constructed a reservoir with a capacity of 340% of the Psycho Plasma that we expect to need. It's always a good idea to leave room for more growth! Surveying for the pipeline has gone extremely well also. One of the surveyors found a beautiful necklace in the bone orchard near Her Majesty's Orphanotrophia. As a result the digging crews are very excited to begin work.

Junior Bureaucrat Log: Entry 544

The pipeline from Dr. Nimrod's Plasma pumping station to the newly renovated Museum of Art and Technology is complete. We were able to install the fans below the exhibit floor ahead of schedule because there were already tunnels. Dr. Morris, our senior anthropologist, tells me that they were built by the savages who lived here prior to our settlement; it seems that these heathens, instead of giving their dead a proper burial, would construct these tunnels to store their dead like trash in the small chambers that jut out every few feet. Well, you know what they say, "one man's trash is another's treasure," we've recovered a great deal of pottery, gems and gold from these primitive rubbish bins.

Junior Bureaucrat Log: Entry 553

I suppose good fortune cannot last forever, we're a week behind schedule. The museum's pipework is completely finished: great fans are in place to blow the positive miasmas up through the Etheric condensers. The bone orchard has proven to be much more troublesome than we expected. Dr. Morris explained that these ignorant savages used to plant the bones of their dead like seeds, they'd even throw in jewelry and coins to act as fertilizer. It wouldn't be so bad except the savages put stone markers above every 'bone plant.' The scoundrels on the digging crew keep getting sidetracked on digging up treasure.

The good news is that the piping in the Orphanotrophia is almost complete. In a week or two we'll finally have a permanent solution to the sadness that permeates the lives of those poor urchins. Say hello to happy thoughts, brought to you by your Junior bureaucrat!

It's basically that slime from Ghostbusters 2. They're using it like an air conditioner, sucking in happy thoughts from the art museum and spitting it out in the orphanage. Things will work perfectly unless there's problems with the catacombs that they raided, or the graves they dug up. Also it's going to be a problem if the museum ever switches to less mirthful art. Luckily this entire plan is going to be well documented so that it's not forgotten, it'd be unthinkable if after a decade or two it's purpose was forgotten and it got used as a citywide heating system that was pumped through every prison, school and hospital.

Triskelli
Sep 26, 2011

JACKPOT



Pretty much my complaint with the majority of "steampunk" produced today. Thankfully, Clockwork Empires seems to be dodging this bullet so far, with what you dubbed "low steampunk". Just have my fingers crossed for something closer to Westerfield's Leviathan than The Iron Duke.

(Any concept art for your airships yet nvining? That's always a good indicator of quality universe building.)

But yes, consider all of my buttons pushed, and I cannot wait to see this game in motion.

Markovnikov
Nov 5, 2010


nvining posted:

Awesome Stuff

You had me at "Vacuum Tubes" (even if the game will probably melt my computer; I completely understand why that is though after having played Dwarf Fortress and seeing everything slowly crawl by; hope I can get into a beta/demo to try it out beforehand) . This seems like it will have a little bit for everyone: city building, steampunk, puzzly layouts and semi programming, lovecraftian horrors, diggles, etc...

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Triskelli posted:

(Any concept art for your airships yet nvining? That's always a good indicator of quality universe building.)

Did you miss the poster? It's up at http://clockworkempires.com/

Saint Freak
Apr 15, 2007

Let me tell you about the time I was canonized...


nvining posted:

Did you miss the poster? It's up at http://clockworkempires.com/

Your poster says 'Orphan'. Are there Orphans and Urchins?

GruntyThrst
Oct 9, 2007

*clang*


Saint Freak posted:

Your poster says 'Orphan'. Are there Orphans and Urchins?

Orphans evolve into Urchins at level 27, I believe.

Triskelli
Sep 26, 2011

JACKPOT


nvining posted:

Did you miss the poster? It's up at http://clockworkempires.com/



Well, as an apparent airship connoisseur, it looks like an excellent trading airship. Personally I'd like any military airships to be more solid and armor plated, but I'm just a goon with dumb opinions. The plague-mask constables look kickass though

Speaking of military though, how will warfare be conducted in multiplayer? Will you have control over the units; or will you assemble an army and send it off, and let the AI take over when it gets to the opponent colony? Or are you months away from figuring that out?

GruntyThrst
Oct 9, 2007

*clang*


Replace standard plague masks with diggle masks.

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Saint Freak posted:

Your poster says 'Orphan'. Are there Orphans and Urchins?

We're supposed to be internally consistent; we fail at this miserably.


Triskelli posted:

Well, as an apparent airship connoisseur, it looks like an excellent trading airship. Personally I'd like any military airships to be more solid and armor plated, but I'm just a goon with dumb opinions. The plague-mask constables look kickass though

Oh, there's a bunch of that too. (The plague-mask constables represent the Prime Minister's Anti-Paranormal Incursion Squad. The cure, for such things, is often worse than the disease...)

quote:

Speaking of military though, how will warfare be conducted in multiplayer? Will you have control over the units; or will you assemble an army and send it off, and let the AI take over when it gets to the opponent colony? Or are you months away from figuring that out?

Umm, less micromanage-y. Roughly speaking, our hunch is that Dwarf Fortress kind of does the right thing here with the assignment of tasks; you'll have regiments and things tied to specific barracks buildings, and the buildings themselves are control points for the military (no matter where they may be on the map.) You can then set patrol points for military groups, have them target specific problems, et cetera. Different units have different requirements; military zeppelins require a zeppelin tower, that kind of thing.

Orv
May 4, 2011

Precisely.


Well fantastic. You guys have basically managed to plumb everything I've ever wanted in a management sim, and then Cthulhu. If this goes together even half as well as you're imagining, I can't imagine playing much else for a long time.

Where do you guys stand on Nerve Stapling?

Seashell Salesman
Aug 4, 2005


Apologies if this was already covered, but will the game modes have an 'end', be it storyline event related, civ-style victory conditions, or a time limit? Not sure if I'd prefer yes or no; the open-ended-ness of DF was a big part of its charm for me. Plus the losing is fun, I hope losing is fun and inevitable in CE too.

SynthOrange
May 6, 2007

I feel the pressure,
under more scrutiny
And what I do,
act more stupidly


I've got pretty good faith in Gaslamp to do the Steampunk theme justice. By which I mean make it as ridiculous as possible.


quote:

It's got a cog on it.

GruntyThrst
Oct 9, 2007

*clang*


Orv posted:

Well fantastic. You guys have basically managed to plumb everything I've ever wanted in a management sim, and then Cthulhu. If this goes together even half as well as you're imagining, I can't imagine playing much else for a long time.

Where do you guys stand on Nerve Stapling?

From the PC Gamer interview:

quote:

NV: It also turns out that putting gears in everybody’s brain is a good idea.

Is that something you can do?

DJ: This was one of your Megaproject ideas…

NV: The Wetware Initiative.

DB: I think some way of nerve-stapling your people, whether it involves gears or Leyden jars or whatever… To turn them into less… They have less of a tendency to go insane.

NV: I hadn’t thought about electroshock therapy. Thank you! I’m going to put that down…

Triple-Kan
Dec 29, 2008


Have you guys begun working on how combat and damage will be handled? Will it be super-detailed DF "you have split the flesh and torn 3 layers of muscle tissue" or "this unit has lost 24 of 50 HP" or somewhere inbetween?

President Ark
May 16, 2010

Looks like you got a good deal there!

Triple-Kan posted:

Have you guys begun working on how combat and damage will be handled? Will it be super-detailed DF "you have split the flesh and torn 3 layers of muscle tissue" or "this unit has lost 24 of 50 HP" or somewhere inbetween?

The interview mentions soldiers losing an arm and being limited to one-handed weapons, so it's not completely arbitrary HP values.

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Triple-Kan posted:

Have you guys begun working on how combat and damage will be handled? Will it be super-detailed DF "you have split the flesh and torn 3 layers of muscle tissue" or "this unit has lost 24 of 50 HP" or somewhere inbetween?

Somewhat up in the air. The biggest issue here is how you render people who have lost their arms and legs without getting all Left 4 Dead 2 up in that.

I will note that we are in favour of health systems based around the traditional Greek humors, and that we are also in favour of bloodletting and leeches as miracle cures. Also, mercury tinctures.

I will also note that there has been a lot of talk about how traditional healthcare was administered at the barbershop, rather than by competent Quacks, and this will probably unlock itself in the tech tree system at some point.

Mzbundifund
Nov 5, 2011

I'm afraid so.


Will we have to struggle to escape the shadowy control of the Bolt Council?

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Mzbundifund posted:

Will we have to struggle to escape the shadowy control of the Bolt Council?

Nope. No Lutefisk God, no Krong, no Bolt Council, no Elves, no Dwarves, no Wizards, no Inconsequentia, no Dredmor, no Adventurer Licenses, and nobody shouting 'Fus Ro Dah' at you either.

There's a *lot* of new writing that has happened. We've been working on this since October 2011.

But some things are best left as surprises.

Dr. Arbitrary
Mar 15, 2006

You're trying to say that you like DOS better then me, right?

I think it'd be neat if your scientists could make discoveries that disprove the quackery of humorism and move to the state-of-the-art miasma theory.

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Dr. Arbitrary posted:

I think it'd be neat if your scientists could make discoveries that disprove the quackery of humorism and move to the state-of-the-art miasma theory.

It is period-accurate, amazingly. Then again, there was also a belief that you needed to have a good stink about you to prevent disease, and that baths were unhygenic. All that water, yeuggh.

There is a greater point here, which I'm going to make, and then I'll shut up for the foreseeable future... I think.

It's all very well saying that we are inspired by Dwarf Fortress, and we are. We love it for what it is, and also for what it stands for; we love, in particular, the generative story and the emergent narrative that comes out of random systems and character driven elements. We're all for that. Making that work is our big, big focus at this point. We have the technical infrastructure in place for most of the renderer, the procedural building stuff, the terrain, the water, the skeletal animation, the networking, rag-doll physics, the UI code... you name it. CE sits on top of a pile of engine work that I've been poking at since, er, 2002, in various incarnations - this is why, as opposed to Dredmor, CE runs its own windowing system. (Yes, I'm insane.)

Where our focus really lies right now is in making a game that has deep, emergent behaviour, and where this depth leads to you - as a player, or a group of players - having wonderful, funny, beautiful, doom-laden adventures in a sandbox you want to mess about in, and where you want to go off and play in the sandbox with your friends. These friends will soon be enemies for life.

One thing I do want to make people aware of: we are not setting out to directly clone, say, the ten best DF features with an eye towards putting them in a nice package with 3D graphics, multiplayer, and multi-core acceleration. Some things that work really well in DF simply aren't things that are feasible for us, things that we want to do, things that we think will make CE a good game, or things that work in three dimensions. (The big one is digging. It doesn't work in three dimensions. Multiple selectable height layers are a crufty, awful mess.) Our big takeaway is that we want big screaming panicky doomed cities full of explosions and massive constructions and dubious secret projects and Obeliskian Death, and this is what we shall deliver at the end of the day.

Other people are taking the DF stuff and are staying much truer to its digging and simulation aspects - and, well, more power to them. (I think it's easier with 2D art as opposed to 3D - the closer you get to photorealism, the more you have to deal with symbolic representations rather than visual representations, and this makes life interesting.) More than anything, for us DF is a good latch-word; people sort of go "Oh! It's like THAT." Well, yes. But it's also not like that. We hope we can do something different - that we can push things forward, that we can make something unique, and that CE will stand on its own two legs and will advance the state of the Steampunk isometric city-building people-destroying Lovecraftian simulator genre.

(For what it's worth: we've been piecing this together since October, after Dredmor 1.0.3 shipped (remember that? Hint: it fixed your broken save games. ) There are things cooking in Vancouver that we have been thinking about for a long, long time - and it's important to remember that we're basically insane, and it's been agony keeping things under lock and key for almost a year... so do pardon our enthusiasm!)

That said, poets do expire in the street, as previously stated. There may be... vapours.

Deki
May 12, 2008

You cannot do it. You cannot kiss the girl.


Are Megaprojects going to be mostly useless, or will they just have a huge risk-v-reward?

Also how will the various citizens actually interact with each other?

Bruxism
Apr 29, 2009

Absolutely not anxious about anything.


Really excited about this. A few questions come to mind:

Will fluids be finite? Will we be able to drain lakes of water/lave and create lakes of industrial effluent?

Will there be incentives/gimmicks to keep generational games going? Like each new governor has a different advantage/stat bonus to encourage competing agendas? Maybe some kind of reward/punishment for setting/accomplishing/halting your own ambitions as well as those of your predecessors?

How large will the play areas be? Will it be possible to select which plot of land we settle or are we always going to be on the coast? Being linked to the empire via crawling steam-powered land caravans seems cool.

will it be possible to declare/fight for independence from the empire?

Really appreciate how much time and attention you are paying to this thread. I'm a big fan of DoD and look forward to testing this title.

Fenn the Fool!
Oct 24, 2006
woohoo

Triple-Kan posted:

Have you guys begun working on how combat and damage will be handled? Will it be super-detailed DF "you have split the flesh and torn 3 layers of muscle tissue" or "this unit has lost 24 of 50 HP" or somewhere inbetween?

I would personally really like to see a departure from hit point systems. Games rarely, if ever, try other ways of modeling wounds and while HP is a great way to balance and normalize a combat system those shouldn't be major issues here. I'd much rather see something focused on flavor, where hits really have weight to them (and are tuned to be as rare as is appropriate for balance purposes). This doesn't necessarily have to be more complex then an HP system, tabletop style rolls to hit and penetrate armor with unit specific wound tables would work great.

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Deki posted:

Are Megaprojects going to be mostly useless, or will they just have a huge risk-v-reward?

Also how will the various citizens actually interact with each other?

As Daniel noted over on the Bay 12 forums (apparently, I'm doing SA, Daniel's doing Bay 12, and David is doing... uh, Quarter to Three?), we're still fighting over the exact implementation of megaprojects. For the most part, our design process is that somebody makes something, and we fight over it until we get it the way we want it; then we see how it hits users, we watch how it blows up, and we have another swing at it until it works. Design by iteration is the best way to do a lot of things; it's also why we went through ten iterations of the Dredmor UI before we settled on our current version, which is miles away from what we started with. Thank goodness.

The actual question of citizens interacting with each other is a bit messy, but we can say that it ties into the memory and event systems. Citizens will form connections with each other, and with other things, and this in turn will weigh how they interact with the world (we decide citizen behaviour using heavily weighted, very large, utility functions.)

Kazmirski, I can answer very few of your questions, save for the one about the embark site: yes, you can choose your embark point.

Umm, so here's a stupid question for people to discuss and fight over: what do people *want* out of generational games?

The DF LPs over here seem to work best when people just shut up and play, and write about it, and I think the tools we put in place in engine and the structure of the game should be set up to encourage this sort of behaviour. (A cool thing that we currently have, thanks to our addled work on Raw Technical Majesty: for debugging and networking purposes, every step of the game's simulation is 100% deterministic and replayable. We wanted this for Dredmor, we didn't have it for Dredmor because we didn't design for it from the ground up, but now we've got it. The practical ramifications are this: didn't see something happen, or you missed it and want to take a screenshot? Back through your completed turn once it's up, and go back and look at it again! Debugging tool of the Gods.)

nvining fucked around with this message at Aug 29, 2012 around 08:19

NoNotTheMindProbe
Aug 9, 2010


In your interview you mention war trains. Can you build rail networks in the game?

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

NoNotTheMindProbe posted:

In your interview you mention war trains. Can you build rail networks in the game?

... isn't that implied by the existence of war trains?

NoNotTheMindProbe
Aug 9, 2010


Your interview also mentions Molyneux and I'm still waiting for my tree.

John Charity Spring
Nov 3, 2009

ACTIVATE THE QUEEN


nvining posted:

Umm, so here's a stupid question for people to discuss and fight over: what do people *want* out of generational games?

The DF LPs over here seem to work best when people just shut up and play, and write about it, and I think the tools we put in place in engine and the structure of the game should be set up to encourage this sort of behaviour.

I think this is the right approach. You should provide some sort of functionality for players to put a bit more of themselves into the game - allowing colonists to be renamed is a nice simple way to do that, particularly in conjunction with the procedural building generation you've got in the game. Should allow for nicely personalised outposts.

KataraniSword
Apr 22, 2008

but at least I don't have
a MLP or MSPA avatar.
I am my own man.

nvining posted:

Umm, so here's a stupid question for people to discuss and fight over: what do people *want* out of generational games?

Personally, I want something that can go horribly right or go beautifully wrong at the drop of a hat, something where I (or whoever's in charge) can have elaborate, intricately balanced microcultures that suddenly spiral out of control because of some feat of random chance or oversight - like, in a DF example, suddenly Urist is on fire and that made him a little thirsty.

The 'people' (which is to say, the in-game citizenry, not the ones playing) need to have some sort internal balance of checks and measures to get that to happen, which sounds like something that's already in the works, given the comment about madness.

I want something that's a little more approachable than DF is, though - a game like this needs a tutorial, or an entire framework of tutorials, or it needs to be simplified from DF's "fantasy life simulator" - while 'build things, research things, stay sane' seems simple in concept, a lot of sandbox games overcomplicate it into needing to micromanage each and every intrinsic, obfuscated stat in each and every person, as opposed to the basic thing of 'build things, research things, stay sane'.

I think the absurdity or the humor of a game like DF is pretty much exactly how Gaslamp writes (Didn't you cite Boatmurdered as an inspiration on your own writing in that 'how to write humorously' lecture?) so I don't think you'll have any problem with the procedural generation (with its many engravings of cheese) or the strange quirkiness.

Lodin
Jul 31, 2003

your friendly
neighborhood Bop

This is a day one purchase and no doubt.
Anyway, I was wondering how complicated laying pipes will be. Do you just drag them from a pig farm onto a cannery and get canned pig feet or do you have to use a bunch of pumps and poo poo? When stuff like that started showing up in Minecraft my mind shut down.
Also, is Fallen London an inspiration for this? Sortof sounds like FL goes to Tropico and builds houses from Spore.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002


So I assume citizens will fall in love, marry, have kids, etc?

Thyrork
Apr 21, 2010

CAUTION: Edges are sharp enough to cut reality.


John Charity Spring posted:

I think this is the right approach. You should provide some sort of functionality for players to put a bit more of themselves into the game - allowing colonists to be renamed is a nice simple way to do that, particularly in conjunction with the procedural building generation you've got in the game. Should allow for nicely personalised outposts.

Oh god, if they let us rename people, its going to be the x-com letsplays all over again. Yes, thats a good thing.


nvining posted:

Where our focus really lies right now is in making a game that has deep, emergent behaviour, and where this depth leads to you - as a player, or a group of players - having wonderful, funny, beautiful, doom-laden adventures in a sandbox you want to mess about in, and where you want to go off and play in the sandbox with your friends. These friends will soon be enemies for life.

From what you've said, and what you're doing, this game really is going to be great to do internal narrative and storytelling alongside play. I like that kind of thing, when the plot is not present but enough things happen to create its own story regardless. Its wonderful stuff.

rudatron
May 31, 2011



Brown Moses posted:

So I assume citizens will fall in love, marry, have kids, etc?
Just to expand on this question: how much control over each citizen will the player have? Is it just a matter of creating tasks and assigning people to do those tasks, or just 'get this done' and let the AI figure the rest out? Or something completely different?

Nettle Soup
Jan 30, 2010

Oh, and Jones was there too.


In DF, I like that when poo poo hits the fan, it's generally because of something you've hosed up. Either your defences weren't good enough or you forgot your little people needed to eat or that the crocodile pool didn't work out quite how you envisioned. That's why I keep playing it, because every time I do I learn from the last time. (Or don't ) Games with bullshit "rocks fall, everyone dies" deaths don't generally keep me playing.

Vodurden
Jun 5, 2011


Hurry up and finish this game so I can throw money at you.

So far everything I've heard makes this game sound like an instant pre-order.

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Grey Hunter
Oct 17, 2007

Pacific Command


Yes. Please take my money.

I love Dredmore, and can't wait to see what you do to DF.

Do insane people randomly increase the number of skulls on things? I love the idea of an insanity spiral for a city - everyone begins picking up low level madness until a play comes into town and suddenly half the population are killing and eating the other half.

fun times ahead!

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