Search Amazon.com:
Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«72 »
  • Post
  • Reply
Lichtenstein
May 31, 2012


Nettle Soup posted:

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet, how much is this game gonna cost?

"More than Dredmor" is all we know.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Faerie Fortune
Nov 13, 2004

Weenie Wizard


I'm really really looking forward to this! I've been trying to get into DF-like games for some time and I just can't get past how obtuse it all is, it seems like you have to have been playing the game from the start to be able to get a grip on all of it. That's not getting into my issues with the graphics, even with a tileset.

I know you guys are at PAX right now but please please tell me there'll be some kind of tutorial for us normal people who don't have the MA in computer science required to navigate DF's excuse for a UI?

The Easy Rider
Sep 21, 2006

Corn Dogs- Deep Fried Proof Of A Loving God

grate deceiver posted:

There's a game called Europa 1400 that's basically entirely about this(maybe also called The Guild). It's somewhat rough around the edges, but probably the best town life simulator I played. I could see some ideas from that game making it's way to Clockwork Empires, like the law system or rivalries between big families.

Awesome, thanks for the tip! The sequel seems to be on Steam; is it equally good? If not, where can I find the original?

Dice Dice Baby
Aug 30, 2004
I like "faggots"

nvining posted:

Victorian society

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHze0SqB5Zg

Woebin
Feb 6, 2006



The Easy Rider posted:

Awesome, thanks for the tip! The sequel seems to be on Steam; is it equally good? If not, where can I find the original?
I don't personally know if the sequel's any good since I only ever tried the original, but you can get the original on Good Old Games: here.

Zombie #246
Apr 26, 2003

Murr rgghhh ahhrghhh fffff

The Easy Rider posted:

Awesome, thanks for the tip! The sequel seems to be on Steam; is it equally good? If not, where can I find the original?

I liked the original much better than the sequel, but the sequel you could play longer before your save games became corrupted. Oh JoWood studios, how I love/hate you.

Wipfmetz
Oct 12, 2007

Sitzen ein oder mehrere Wipfe in einer Lore, so kann man sie ueber den Rand der Lore hinausschauen sehen.

The sequel is buggy as hell (even more so than the original!). Get the "Renaissance"-version, that's at least playable. It still has bugs, but most of them are funny enough for the game to be actually... fun.

DarthJeebus
Apr 8, 2006


There's a fanmade patch for the Guild 2 that addresses many of the bugs. I'm pretty sure this is it.

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Still at PAX, so replies will be a little bit late coming (when I get back to Vancouver.)

That said:

1. We got a few copies of the 6 page preview of CE in this next month's PC Gamer, and it looks really good; I don't think that there's any new information or anything that wasn't originally in the interview, but you might want to give it a read anyway.
2. We are still at PAX! I'm at the booth today (Sunday) with David from 2 until close, and we'll be happy to talk about CE. David will draw you a Diggle or a Holy Cog or something.

(EDIT: Hmm. Okay, the hotel wireless ate half my post! Hurray.)

nvining fucked around with this message at Sep 2, 2012 around 10:02

grate deceiver
Jul 10, 2009


The Easy Rider posted:

Awesome, thanks for the tip! The sequel seems to be on Steam; is it equally good? If not, where can I find the original?

I didn't like the sequel at all. I felt that it completely lacked the appeal and cool gameplay of the original, I basically got bored with it after fiddling around for half an hour and never touched it again.

As far as town politics simulators go, the original is imho the best.

The Easy Rider
Sep 21, 2006

Corn Dogs- Deep Fried Proof Of A Loving God

Thanks for the info on The Guild, I'll check it out off GOG.

On the topic of Clockwork Empires, what is the learning curve like on building construction? Will someone with little to no experience in 3D modeling still be fully capable of making interesting buildings?

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

The Easy Rider posted:

Thanks for the info on The Guild, I'll check it out off GOG.

On the topic of Clockwork Empires, what is the learning curve like on building construction? Will someone with little to no experience in 3D modeling still be fully capable of making interesting buildings?

Super easy. Literally, you click around on the tile grid of the game level until you specify the building blueprint, and it creates a building. You can adjust how each individual side looks and what profile it uses, and how you want to decorate things (i.e. what material you're going to use, etc.) I think most profiles have materials attached to them so that Sean and crew can make everything look right; there's a bunch of UI decisions we need to make and experiment with before we can proceed, but we're not quite there yet.

(We're recovering from PAX in our hotel rooms, which probably means it's a good time to ask ridiculous questions. Reactions on the floor were *really* positive!)

rargphlam
Dec 16, 2008


I was at PAX, so I wound up stopping by their tiny corner and saying hi, received a diggle, and chatted the Gaslamp guys up. Just have to say, you're all really cool and you make good games so never stop.

Also, I learned nvining's HORRIBLE SECRET (It may or may not be Derek Smart related).

rargphlam fucked around with this message at Sep 3, 2012 around 05:41

GruntyThrst
Oct 9, 2007

*clang*


rargphlam posted:

Also, I learned nvining's HORRIBLE SECRET (It may or may not be Derek Smart related).

Oh god now I have to know.

The Easy Rider
Sep 21, 2006

Corn Dogs- Deep Fried Proof Of A Loving God

nvining posted:

Super easy. Literally, you click around on the tile grid of the game level until you specify the building blueprint, and it creates a building. You can adjust how each individual side looks and what profile it uses, and how you want to decorate things (i.e. what material you're going to use, etc.) I think most profiles have materials attached to them so that Sean and crew can make everything look right; there's a bunch of UI decisions we need to make and experiment with before we can proceed, but we're not quite there yet.

(We're recovering from PAX in our hotel rooms, which probably means it's a good time to ask ridiculous questions. Reactions on the floor were *really* positive!)

Here's a repost of my earlier question in case it got missed during the convention.

The Easy Rider posted:

Will there be organizational/political rivalry in addition to the traditional us vs. them soldiers vs. cultists type problems? Will Captain Joe Cogsman of the Royal Steam-Constabulary have the potential to get into a rivalry with Chief Inspector Robert Steamer of the Electro-City Watch? There has never been a game that modeled petty bureaucratic rivalries, police pissing contests, political machine clashes and similar minor conflicts that inevitably sprout up in cities, and it seems a colonial backdrop would be perfect for this sort of thing. Essentially, can this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-vBJ8cS08U happen?

If there will be multiple groups vying for influence, how much of an influence will we have on them? Would we be able to appoint one group to hunting down cultists, while another does normal policing? If there aren't multiple groups, will certain individuals or groupings within organizations be able to fill similar roles? (Sorry for speculating based on my own speculations, but I'm already quite excited for this game regardless of whether this sort of content will be included within it, and if it is included, it's pretty much the game I've always dreamed of).

Will there be unique items to acquire and award to your citizens? Or is the larger emphasis on mass-manufacturing, large-scale production items? Will the distribution of items effect citizens who weren't given them? For example, in the former case, if I gave a scholar some rare esoteric text, will it anger other scholars who weren't similarly compensated? Or in the latter, if better food stuffs are distributed to one section of society, will the others resent or organize against them?

Sorry for all of the questions!

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

The Easy Rider posted:

Here's a repost of my earlier question in case it got missed during the convention.



To answer this question: no, originally there wasn't an intention to have a level for the simulation of petty bureaucracy. However, shortly after you posted this we had a conversation along the lines of:

N: "So there's this goon on the SA forums who wants to know if we have a simulation layer for petty bureaucracy."
D: "... we probably should!"

So yeah. We actually like this idea a lot, although we hadn't considered it, and we will see what we can do. No idea what form it will take, though.

quote:

If there will be multiple groups vying for influence, how much of an influence will we have on them? Would we be able to appoint one group to hunting down cultists, while another does normal policing? If there aren't multiple groups, will certain individuals or groupings within organizations be able to fill similar roles? (Sorry for speculating based on my own speculations, but I'm already quite excited for this game regardless of whether this sort of content will be included within it, and if it is included, it's pretty much the game I've always dreamed of).

The exact dispensation of influence between classes and trades is a little bit hard to speculate about right now, because it's still too early in where we are in implementing gameplay; I imagine most of this will resolve itself during betas. (Anybody who participated in the Dredmor beta can tell you that the game tended to suddenly rewrite itself on short notice every day, and everyone would stumble around trying to figure out what changed in a given build. I think we'll be a little more organized about changelogging, but still.) Most of this sort of depends on seeing what works best, you know?

quote:

Will there be unique items to acquire and award to your citizens? Or is the larger emphasis on mass-manufacturing, large-scale production items? Will the distribution of items effect citizens who weren't given them? For example, in the former case, if I gave a scholar some rare esoteric text, will it anger other scholars who weren't similarly compensated? Or in the latter, if better food stuffs are distributed to one section of society, will the others resent or organize against them?

There will be unique items, at least for some definition of unique. They will mainly be acquired under horrifying circumstances. "Awarded" is probably too strong a word. That's all I'm going to say about that.

With the food stuff or whatever, some of this is too hard to tell. You certainly want to keep people happy.

Eonwe
Aug 11, 2008

Disco Lovin' Barney


Along the lines of the bureaucratic feuds, any chance of seeing feuds between families/groups of friends? I'm not sure if there will be families/tracking of friendships.

I just think it'd be interesting for someone to form a grudge against another person for a relatively minor slight and have it escalate over time into outright hostility.

The Easy Rider
Sep 21, 2006

Corn Dogs- Deep Fried Proof Of A Loving God

nvining posted:

To answer this question: no, originally there wasn't an intention to have a level for the simulation of petty bureaucracy. However, shortly after you posted this we had a conversation along the lines of:

N: "So there's this goon on the SA forums who wants to know if we have a simulation layer for petty bureaucracy."
D: "... we probably should!"

So yeah. We actually like this idea a lot, although we hadn't considered it, and we will see what we can do. No idea what form it will take, though.


Welp, Clockwork Empires just went from "game I'm eagerly anticipating" to "the game I've always wanted to play". Regardless of how it plays out, I'm absolutely thrilled to hear that it's at least a topic of conversation on the design staff now.

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

New post made, with some cultists and some zeppelins.

Bettik
Jan 28, 2008

Space-age Rock Star

The idea of this game is really exciting! I hope that pre-purchasing and beta access will happen at the timeline you're hoping - it seems like the kind of game that could benefit from people trying crazy poo poo to see if it breaks.

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008

Suffer this Terrible curse!


rargphlam posted:

I was at PAX, so I wound up stopping by their tiny corner and saying hi, received a diggle, and chatted the Gaslamp guys up. Just have to say, you're all really cool and you make good games so never stop.

Also, I learned nvining's HORRIBLE SECRET (It may or may not be Derek Smart related).

You jammed the vending machine, didn't you? Which set off a cascade of events that resulted in the fight with Derek Smart.

Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

What is fun
Baby don't hurt me
Don't hurt me
No more


The Easy Rider posted:

Welp, Clockwork Empires just went from "game I'm eagerly anticipating" to "the game I've always wanted to play". Regardless of how it plays out, I'm absolutely thrilled to hear that it's at least a topic of conversation on the design staff now.

Because of this I feel the same way. I was excited as hell for Spore. I was let down. I was excited as hell for Sword of the Stars 2. I was let down. Now I'm excited as hell for this. Please don't let me down.

Triskelli
Sep 26, 2011

JACKPOT


Here's a question; How involved will the military system be? Despite all the micromanagement of DF (uniforms, weapons, patrol routes), there's no orders other than "run here" or "kill that". On the other hand this is a colony builder, not an RTS, so it can't be too in-depth.

Me personally, I like the idea of having the option of switching between direct control and letting a Colonial Colonel Modern Major General AI direct your soldiers. Let the windbag handle small skirmishes with the local band of cultists, but if Cthulhu shows up you can personally prevent things from going tits up.

Main interaction would be convincing the prime minister to keep sending you troops, and making sure you've built proper defenses such as walls and bunkers. Want to make sure a wiff of the ol' grapeshot will do the trick.

Triskelli fucked around with this message at Sep 10, 2012 around 03:41

Markovnikov
Nov 5, 2010


Triskelli posted:

Here's a question; How involved will the military system be? Despite all the micromanagement of DF (uniforms, weapons, patrol routes), there's no orders other than "run here" or "kill that". On the other hand this is a colony builder, not an RTS, so it can't be too in-depth.

Me personally, I like the idea of having the option of switching between direct control and letting a Colonial Colonel Modern Major General AI direct your soldiers. Let the windbag handle small skirmishes with the local band of cultists, but if Cthulhu shows up you can personally prevent things from going tits up.

Main interaction would be convincing the prime minister to keep sending you troops, and making sure you've built proper defenses such as walls and bunkers. Want to make sure a wiff of the ol' grapeshot will do the trick.

Is there any example of a simulation game with combat done right? I've been playing through Pharaoh/Cleopatra lately, and for all the great city management in those games the combat is terrible.

Orv
May 4, 2011

Precisely.


Markovnikov posted:

Is there any example of a simulation game with combat done right? I've been playing through Pharaoh/Cleopatra lately, and for all the great city management in those games the combat is terrible.

Dwarf Fortress does it about as well as you'll ever find, simply through its ridiculous complexity. That's not to say it's easy to control mind you. Also the collision physics between body-parts and weapons can sometimes be a bit off.

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Phobophilia posted:

You jammed the vending machine, didn't you? Which set off a cascade of events that resulted in the fight with Derek Smart.

Nah, I just worked for him as a contract programmer for a couple of years, on and off. As a result, I had to sign somebody's copy of Universal Combat at PAX this year. I think I signed it "OH GOD IT'S ALL COMING BACK TO ME".

Re: the military system questions - I can't answer this one intelligently right now, but we're aiming not to totally bugger it up.

Contra Duck
Nov 4, 2004

#1 DAD


Wow, this looks like a big pile of fun.

Nettle Soup
Jan 30, 2010

Oh, and Jones was there too.


Deadmeat5150 posted:

Because of this I feel the same way. I was excited as hell for Spore. I was let down. I was excited as hell for Sword of the Stars 2. I was let down. Now I'm excited as hell for this. Please don't let me down.

Please don't be Spore.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Orv posted:

Dwarf Fortress does it about as well as you'll ever find, simply through its ridiculous complexity. That's not to say it's easy to control mind you. Also the collision physics between body-parts and weapons can sometimes be a bit off.

The trouble is that for an RTS combat system to be good, it pretty much has to demand your full attention -- and then some, even, there has to be so much to do that you're forced to prioritize. That's all well and good if you're playing StarCraft or something else that plays in short, discrete, and focused sessions, but it sucks if you try to jam it into a persistent city-builder where games can last for hours.

Either you have combat going on all the time and have a divided game trying to compromise between two different paces of gameplay at the expense of both (SoaSE) or you have a city-builder where you're periodically interrupted by a quasi-separate game mode (Caesar, Pharoah, etc.) The second option is probably the better of the two, but realistically one mode is going to get prioritized over the other, and the neglected one is naturally going to feel lovely and half-finished when there are whole games dedicated to just that kind of gameplay with no compromises or distractions.

DF gets around it by being real-time with pause and by making the primary factor in combat how well-trained and equipped your dwarfs are*. It's not a perfect solution, but it's fairly elegant in that it doesn't even try to be an RTS and just makes combat a largely hands-off demonstration of the persistent RPG/builder stuff.



*Well, that and everything in DF is janky and unfinished, so you don't really notice as much.

Triskelli
Sep 26, 2011

JACKPOT


nvining posted:

Re: the military system questions - I can't answer this one intelligently right now, but we're aiming not to totally bugger it up.

That's fine, I understand that the game is still very early in development and not everything has made it into design documents, let alone implemented.

Still, I think an AI commander would model well in terms of petty bureaucracy. Say the major general stationed at your colony has a seething distaste for poets. When the enemy comes he might decide to let the Arts district burn to the ground if you don't catch him on it.

Plus, am I the only guy that boots up strategy games just to watch the computer play against itself? Just remember that all too often it's fun to let the simulation run on its own, while you watch on; sipping a glass of Shiraz.

Thyrork
Apr 21, 2010

CAUTION: Edges are sharp enough to cut reality.


So uh, nvining, heres an thought train of mine, thanks to the terraria thread: Would you ever do a block building game?

I guess i can wait on Clockwork Empire to devourer that similar-but-not-the-same gameplay, but considering what wonderful stuff you huff/drink over there, a minecraft/terraria like game would be amazing.

So im curious, was it ever discussed? Could it be something for the future? Am i wishing something upon you that you dont deserve? The final question's answer is "yes, minecraft fanboys"

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008

Suffer this Terrible curse!


Don't you dare put Minecraft mechanics into this game it's already starting to suffer from feature bloat and any more will eject all four balls straight off the cliff.

Triskelli
Sep 26, 2011

JACKPOT


Phobophilia posted:

Don't you dare put Minecraft mechanics into this game it's already starting to suffer from feature bloat and any more will eject all four balls straight off the cliff.
To be fair, feature bloat is a vital part of the Dwarf Fortress experience. Adding Tracking to the Adventure Game, seriously?

nvining
May 30, 2011

tunnels through walls with its odd, rubbery nasal appliance

Shadowmorn posted:

So uh, nvining, heres an thought train of mine, thanks to the terraria thread: Would you ever do a block building game?

I guess i can wait on Clockwork Empire to devourer that similar-but-not-the-same gameplay, but considering what wonderful stuff you huff/drink over there, a minecraft/terraria like game would be amazing.

So im curious, was it ever discussed? Could it be something for the future? Am i wishing something upon you that you dont deserve? The final question's answer is "yes, minecraft fanboys"

Other than trying to pick up Terraria when it was originally announced that it was being abandoned... nah, it hasn't really been on the agenda. (I dunno, how do we feel about Worlds of Dredmor: the 2D block-based Metroidvania?)

The only thing we're actually drawing influence from from Minecraft for CE is the redstone mechanics and that sort of building, although I'm not sure if we'll play it straight or not. I'm a dick and so I'm tempted to make everyone build everything with gears/punch cards/vacuum tubes.

Phobophilia posted:

Don't you dare put Minecraft mechanics into this game it's already starting to suffer from feature bloat and any more will eject all four balls straight off the cliff.

Sam, please. We have families.

nvining fucked around with this message at Sep 12, 2012 around 04:03

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008

Suffer this Terrible curse!


If you go down that path, then how about this. Offer default options for these kind of circuits, make that intuitive. But at the same time, give the option of diving into the guts of these machines, so you can optimise the gear ratios and minimise energy losses from friction and all that jazz.

Just make it fun and rewarding players don't find it a chore to optimise, and so you don't get Soren Johnson's "water finds a crack" effect, like what happened with Dredmor's skip turn healing.

This will not be a shameful path.

President Ark
May 16, 2010

Looks like you got a good deal there!

Basically what we're saying is that if you haven't already, nvining, you should probably play Pharaoh and make a note of how its military system works.


And then don't do what it does because Pharaoh's military system is terrible.

Ceyton
Oct 9, 2004

IT IS HARAAM TO DRAW OR SKETCH MYSTICAL CREATURES


Markovnikov posted:

Is there any example of a simulation game with combat done right? I've been playing through Pharaoh/Cleopatra lately, and for all the great city management in those games the combat is terrible.

Stronghold was good, but only for defensive/building-oriented combat. When you get down to basics, it's really a tower defense game with a complex economy. Things didn't work so well when you went on offense.

Another model that might actually work for CE is Majesty. You can build units, research upgrades, build support buildings, and so on, but the units themselves are autonomous. The player can only influence them with general orders (attack here, explore here, etc.) I also like the idea of putting various citizens in command of military units, which would influence how they behaved.

In general though, I agree with everyone else. Intensive combat in a building-oriented game is a no-no.

Markovnikov
Nov 5, 2010


nvining posted:

The only thing we're actually drawing influence from from Minecraft for CE is the redstone mechanics and that sort of building, although I'm not sure if we'll play it straight or not. I'm a dick and so I'm tempted to make everyone build everything with gears/punch cards/vacuum tubes.

The problem with Minecraft's redstone is that it's really clunky and anti intuitive, and I'm pretty sure it works nothing like what it's trying to emulate. It gets to the point where some people can barely connect two things with wires, while the electrical engineers run around building gigantic memories and RAMs and calculators and whatnot. Luckily, some mods, like RedPower improve the redstone, and give you things like pre made logic gate blocks instead of having to build even your own logic gates.

I hope this doesn't scare you away from doing that sort of system as I'd love to play around with a workable version of redstone, but it's just a caveat to take into account.

Pozzo
Nov 4, 2009

What is like posting in a thread?
A Ballista, that's what!


So between this Pozzo/Gemclod easter-egg in Dredmor, and the fact that I'm sure I've seen an interview with Gaslamp somewhere that alludes to Bad Munkis "cheap stone tat" (a phrase that I coined!) I think the one thing they need more than people overhyping the poo poo out of the game is me harassing them for a job.

Nvining! Give me money to do something I already do for free! You can give me money to do it! READY GO

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Thyrork
Apr 21, 2010

CAUTION: Edges are sharp enough to cut reality.


nvining posted:

Other than trying to pick up Terraria when it was originally announced that it was being abandoned... nah, it hasn't really been on the agenda. (I dunno, how do we feel about Worlds of Dredmor: the 2D block-based Metroidvania?)

The only thing we're actually drawing influence from from Minecraft for CE is the redstone mechanics and that sort of building, although I'm not sure if we'll play it straight or not. I'm a dick and so I'm tempted to make everyone build everything with gears/punch cards/vacuum tubes.

I'd play it, play it to death.

If your going to look at redstone mechanics for inspiration, for the love of the diggle devil, download technic and look at all the other crazy machinery in tekkit. We have at least one goon run (by me ) tekkit server and some of the setups are already decending into madding pictures of pipes within pipes within pipes

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«72 »