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TyChan posted:Would any government arising after the Taylor Report be privy to the cover up? I can see how the governments after 1990 were all culpable for not listening to the families sooner and pressing for full disclosure of the information, but that's slightly different than being privy to what the South Yorkshire police swept under the rug. Ninpo posted:This is confusing me...if there was already a report exonerating the fans and damning the police, what's the missing link? Duckenfield was given an early retirement for health reasons and was never charged with anything. Some other police who were on the scene that day were given compensation for mental trauma they suffered. The families were lucky if they got victims' funerals paid for. The version of events pushed by the SYP had done a lot of damage, too. I mean, there are still people on Twitter today attributing some blame to drunken, ticketless fans. irlZaphod fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Sep 13, 2012 |
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Sep 13, 2012 00:12
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Ninpo posted:This is confusing me...if there was already a report exonerating the fans and damning the police, what's the missing link? I believe the gist of it is essentially just a massive release of government paperwork relating to Hillsborough and analysis thereof. I think the families have always believed that there was foul play and there'd be something in these documents that would force someone to take responsibility for what happened. I still don't believe there is, but that's not really the point. The Taylor Report took witness statements, and then came to the conclusion that the police had failed to manage the crowd properly, the stadium (and most others) was fundamentally unsafe, yadda yadda yadda. As I say, those things were all really known before. He didn't look at who'd said what to which newspaper in the aftermath, because that was neither here nor there. He established what caused the disaster and then went home. The information that's coming out today is mostly about the actions of the police and the government behind the scenes in the wake of the disaster. I believe I mentioned earlier today, the only truly significant item I see outside of that is for them to look at the autopsy record and throw out the 3.15pm cut-off.
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Sep 13, 2012 00:13
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irlZaphod posted:The subsequent Tory and Labour governments, while they may not have been privy to the cover-up, had the records there in the House of Lords. They were only opened because of the work done by Andy Burnham, Steve Rotherham, and all the others who have campaigned. There was no need for the Government to wait ~20 years to look at the records. To be fair, I heard the number earlier put at "400,000 documents". To be honest, that sounds like crap, but I can certainly see that Jack Straw's first priority on taking office was not "bring me a ham roll and a big bin full of stuff from the 80s that'll take six months to read". If you were going to do it, you need to set up a panel and do it properly.
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Sep 13, 2012 00:19
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FullLeatherJacket posted:To be fair, I heard the number earlier put at "400,000 documents". To be honest, that sounds like crap, but I can certainly see that Jack Straw's first priority on taking office was not "bring me a ham roll and a big bin full of stuff from the 80s that'll take six months to read". If you were going to do it, you need to set up a panel and do it properly.
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Sep 13, 2012 00:24
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TyChan posted:The findings of the Taylor Report were not extensive enough to undo the damage of the initial cover-up on perceptions of who was at fault and it fed into the narrative of the disaster happening due to "unfortunate mistakes at the wrong time by well-meaning people dealing with a broken football system," which allowed the police to escape due scrutiny for so long. Ah I see.
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Sep 13, 2012 00:30
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irlZaphod posted:That's what I mean. Jack Straw just stuck the 10 boxes in the library, with no real intention to do anything about them. When was that, 95 or so? The HIP was only set up in 2010 after years of campaigning. 97 iirc. "Things can only get better", remember.
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Sep 13, 2012 00:32
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So apart from not prosecuting attendees and the practically halving of the capacity of top flight stadia, the Taylor enquiry was pretty much ignored? Am I overreacting or does it seem like English football as it is today is completely tainted by all this?
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Sep 13, 2012 00:45
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Wasn't this also the justification for no alcohol in sight of the pitch?
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Sep 13, 2012 01:17
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Well since today revealed one of the biggest cover ups in British history the morning papers will probably be something to take note of. Let's see shall we: The Mail go with the 96 faces, powerful  The Star give some real estate to the royals but ok  The Independent do a wonderful job  The Times, simple  The Guardian, it really was a day of reckoning  The Mirror is my pick, excellent  The Independent pick a powerful image (notice no police helping)  But then the Express makes me arch both eyebrows and do several 360's  But you must always save the best for last, and ahahahahahahahahah the loving Telegraph, gently caress you, burn  There's a front page I did not post and I ask you not to post it either because there's nothing to be said about that rag.
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Sep 13, 2012 01:48
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T. Mascis posted:Well since today revealed one of the biggest cover ups in British history the morning papers will probably be something to take note of. Let's see shall we: Just to add to how utterly hosed that is;   The FT manage to find some space on their front page to cover the report;  And even the New York Times manages to have it feature as well.  For the Telegraph to do that is baffling to be honest.
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Sep 13, 2012 02:07
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congrats to the Torygraph for continuing to be a bunch of dicks
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Sep 13, 2012 02:13
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serious gaylord posted:Please note I'm not defending the sun, this is important because they're loving disgusting and what they did after their claims were pointed out to be pure fabrication is disgusting and should go die in the same hole as the news of the world. and yet every other newspaper in the uk either saw through the bullshit or reported the dodgy police claims as claims. The Sun were unique in not holding them up to basic scrutiny and unique in labelling their slander of corpses as 'The Truth' also death to the telegraph, even more so than every other day
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Sep 13, 2012 03:01
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It's like the mail and express swapped roles Is it naive that I am actually surprised by the telegraph
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Sep 13, 2012 03:05
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It's frustrating that despite this report I'm having to argue with idiots on other forums who are outraged that the fans have been exonerated. Like "oh yeah the police were obv wrong to cover it up but have you considered that maybe the fans were responsible?!!!". They keep going on about drunk ticketless scousers pushing forward despite the screams and I want to throw them under a bus.
Painkiller fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Sep 13, 2012 |
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Sep 13, 2012 03:47
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Ninpo posted:So apart from not prosecuting attendees and the practically halving of the capacity of top flight stadia, the Taylor enquiry was pretty much ignored? The Taylor Report wasn't ignored, but it was working with an incomplete body of evidence affected by the cover-up perpetrated by the police and the authorities and much of the despicable actions by the authorities was in reaction to the report. For example, after the Taylor Report came out and the resulting inquests, you got the false designation of the victims' times of death and "insufficient evidence" of police misconduct came out, which at that time curtailed any potential for finding the authorities criminally negligent. Details such as the alcohol and criminal history checks also weren't known then. Also, only later did researchers gradually find out things like the existence of CCTV footage from a camera that was supposedly not working at the time and other bits and pieces of testimony that slowly chipped away at the police's depiction of what happened. As much as I would otherwise not ask someone to read the Mirror, Brian Reade has a pretty good summary of how the Taylor Report falls into the sequence of events Cameron apologized for: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730#.UFBpaqTZKF0.twitter quote:[Am I overreacting or does it seem like English football as it is today is completely tainted by all this? I don't think football's tainted, but a lot of people in positions of power and trust definitely are and it's going to be even more maddening when people who don't care to be informed about the truth parrot the sentiments of people like Kevin Mackenzie and Boris Johnson. I like to think the Taylor Report and English football's moves to adopt its recommendations made football safer, at least. Eric Cantonese fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Sep 13, 2012 |
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Sep 13, 2012 04:04
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Painkiller posted:It's frustrating that despite this report I'm having to argue with idiots on other forums who are outraged that the fans have been exonerated. Like "oh yeah the police were obv wrong to cover it up but have you considered that maybe the fans were responsible?!!!". They keep going on about drunk ticketless scousers pushing forward despite the screams and I want to throw them under a bus. I think there will always be this weird core convinced of that but one of the panelists literally said there were absolutely no "information gaps" at all, this is as loving Fact as Fact can get here, they have a record of everything that happened on the day.
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Sep 13, 2012 04:22
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Painkiller posted:It's frustrating that despite this report I'm having to argue with idiots on other forums who are outraged that the fans have been exonerated. Like "oh yeah the police were obv wrong to cover it up but have you considered that maybe the fans were responsible?!!!". They keep going on about drunk ticketless scousers pushing forward despite the screams and I want to throw them under a bus. Those are the same type of people that claim the US government is responsible for 9/11, Jews run Hollywood, the moon landing was faked etc. It won't matter what facts you show them, they will cling to their conspiracy theories all the tighter in the face of overwhelming evidence because it would shatter their worldview to admit they're wrong.
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Sep 13, 2012 04:41
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This is so incredibly hosed up, beyond the normal lies and corruption that characterize most governments. I really hope those who were guilty for this injustice burn and the families can finally get justice and closure.
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Sep 13, 2012 05:53
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Painkiller posted:It's frustrating that despite this report I'm having to argue with idiots on other forums who are outraged that the fans have been exonerated. Like "oh yeah the police were obv wrong to cover it up but have you considered that maybe the fans were responsible?!!!". They keep going on about drunk ticketless scousers pushing forward despite the screams and I want to throw them under a bus. I've seen a lot of posts like that recently and I don't even bother replying. People like that will never care. I'm really glad this info is all out now and look forward to an inquest.
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Sep 13, 2012 08:39
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Front page of the New York Times, center of the left column:
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Sep 13, 2012 08:59
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lovely Fuckboy posted:Those are the same type of people that claim the US government is responsible for 9/11, Jews run Hollywood, the moon landing was faked etc. It won't matter what facts you show them, they will cling to their conspiracy theories all the tighter in the face of overwhelming evidence because it would shatter their worldview to admit they're wrong. Pretty much, people are loving stupid. Proof being a Liverpool fan buying the Sun at a shop I was just at. Jose fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Sep 13, 2012 |
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Sep 13, 2012 09:00
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Scott Bakula posted:Pretty much, people are loving stupid. Proof being a Liverpool fan buying the Sun at a shop I was just at. I've gone on about this a few times but the Liverpool fan in my office buys the Sun everyday and always got arsey when I pulled him up on this particular contradiction in loyalties. Today's copy is on his desk. Here's hoping he finally Gets It.
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Sep 13, 2012 09:32
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britishbornandbread posted:I've gone on about this a few times but the Liverpool fan in my office buys the Sun everyday and always got arsey when I pulled him up on this particular contradiction in loyalties. Today's copy is on his desk. Here's hoping he finally Gets It. Print out that front page and put it next to it.
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Sep 13, 2012 09:33
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This one got called out by the woman serving him and his response was "I need to do the crossword" as if there aren't crosswords in every other paper and then that reporters are paid to write this poo poo. This was only moments after he was being casually racist though so maybe I should have expected it
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Sep 13, 2012 09:36
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serious gaylord posted:Print out that front page and put it next to it. More than I need to do in all honesty. He's a bit plastic but he's been to a few games every season - the paper he buys every week says that the people he's stood with robbed and pissed on the dead. Yet he still buys it and is unrepentant about it. I literally can't get my head around that.
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Sep 13, 2012 09:39
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Scott Bakula posted:This one got called out by the woman serving him and his response was "I need to do the crossword" as if there aren't crosswords in every other paper and then that reporters are paid to write this poo poo. This was only moments after he was being casually racist though so maybe I should have expected it TBF the only way to get The Telegraph crypic is to buy the newspaper. 
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Sep 13, 2012 09:59
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Cross-posting from the UK politics thread: This newspaper clipping is doing the rounds, purported to be written by Kelvin MacKenzie in 1988, can anyone confirm if it's real or not?  https://www.bloggerheads.com/archives/2012/09/kelvin-mackenzie/ Loonytoad Quack fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Sep 13, 2012 |
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Sep 13, 2012 10:12
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Loonytoad Quack posted:Cross-posting from the UK politics thread:
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Sep 13, 2012 10:37
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The FA released a statement this morning http://www.thefa.com/News/2012/sep/hillsborough-independent-panel.aspx quote:"Having thoroughly reviewed yesterday's report in full, The Football Association would like to commend the Hillsborough Independent Panel for their exhaustive and professional work. Way to stand up and take responsibility for your part in the disaster, guys.
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Sep 13, 2012 10:43
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e: ^^ it's amazing how people are paid money to write press statements and can't even manage to loving apologise properly. Or at all, in this case.Loonytoad Quack posted:Cross-posting from the UK politics thread: It's real.
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Sep 13, 2012 10:45
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Ninpo posted:e: ^^ it's amazing how people are paid money to write press statements and can't even manage to loving apologise properly. Or at all, in this case. That's exactly the point though, unfortunately. They don't want to take responsibility, but have to say something. It's the PR version of "I'm sorry you got offended by what I said".
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Sep 13, 2012 11:06
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I just sent a mail to the FA telling them that their comment is awful and they need to come up with an actual apology for their part in the disaster. It won't do a drat thing but it felt good to do. I sent it to editor@thefa.com to avoid having to register on their site and use their contact form, in case anyone wants to do the same.
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Sep 13, 2012 11:12
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Did the Telegraph really print nothing about this on their cover? Could it just be the case that they have a much earlier publishing time or something? It seems unlikely that a newspaper, partisan or not, would intentionally miss covering such a major event.
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Sep 13, 2012 11:24
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The final print is late, something like 10pm for most papers. Remember they almost always cover late kick off times during week days for football matches
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Sep 13, 2012 11:25
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Vegetable posted:Did the Telegraph really print nothing about this on their cover? Could it just be the case that they have a much earlier publishing time or something? It seems unlikely that a newspaper, partisan or not, would intentionally miss covering such a major event. They relegated it to the sports pages.
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Sep 13, 2012 11:42
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Vegetable posted:Did the Telegraph really print nothing about this on their cover? Could it just be the case that they have a much earlier publishing time or something? It seems unlikely that a newspaper, partisan or not, would intentionally miss covering such a major event. The telegraph do a separate daily supplement for sports and their cover of that is a big 'The Truth' thing. In the main paper it's on page 6 which is ridiculous.
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Sep 13, 2012 11:48
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The Mash posted:I just sent a mail to the FA telling them that their comment is awful and they need to come up with an actual apology for their part in the disaster. It won't do a drat thing but it felt good to do. My email to the FA posted:Subject: Your Hillsborough press release" Won't do anything but meh.
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Sep 13, 2012 11:49
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Here's a deeply unhinged article from seethingly bitter ex-games journalist Stu Campbell, calling the people stuck in the crush "murderers".
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Sep 13, 2012 11:54
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Painkiller posted:It's frustrating that despite this report I'm having to argue with idiots on other forums who are outraged that the fans have been exonerated. Like "oh yeah the police were obv wrong to cover it up but have you considered that maybe the fans were responsible?!!!". They keep going on about drunk ticketless scousers pushing forward despite the screams and I want to throw them under a bus. What people are told first sticks in the memory, and a study suggested that people believe things more strongly when they find out that there's strong evidence against it. It's part of the reason why the police and government are always so quick to issue a press release, even if it turns out to be obviously and deliberately misleading - eg. de Menezes, Tomlinson, etc.
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Sep 13, 2012 12:31
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Apparently Bernstein is/was supposed to be making a broadcast statement at noon. I haven't seen anything about it, though. Also Sheffield Wednesday looked for compensation from the FA over lost revenue due to the semi-final being "cancelled" lmao are they loving serious. I'd bet good money that there were brown envelopes involved in moving the semi-finals back to Hillsborough in 87.
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Sep 13, 2012 12:32
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